General Election 2016 - Mayo

oscarBravo

nuac wrote: »

I was amazed when I heard the "locals are whingers" jibe.

He didn't say "locals are whingers". It was very, very successfully spun into that by his political opponents, and it seems that all too many people decided to interpret it that way in order to successfully take offence to it; but he didn't say it.

He should have been more careful with what he said, but it's a bit much getting annoyed about something he didn't say.

Spudman_20000

oscarBravo wrote: »

He didn't say "locals are whingers". It was very, very successfully spun into that by his political opponents, and it seems that all too many people decided to interpret it that way in order to successfully take offence to it; but he didn't say it.

He should have been more careful with what he said, but it's a bit much getting annoyed about something he didn't say.

Seriously? It wasn't directed at the people of Castlebar? He refused to withdraw the remark until 2 days later, and only then did he claim it was directed at Fianna Fail councillors. Took him 2 full days to come with that baloney.

Even the "meu culpa" apology didn't come across as sincere.

There was no "spinning" required by opposition parties, it's obvious to the dog in the street who the comment was being directed at.

You've been quick enough to post here what you think this government has done for Mayo in the past 5 years e.g. national broadband plan, N5 and N59 (all "in progress" by the way, no guarantee that they will actually be delivered). You've also asked repeatedly "who should we vote for so?" as if there couldn't possibly be any other option than what we have already.

If you have some affiliation with Fine Gael or are just a supporter, then that's fine but you should be more up front about it on here, especially if you're going to challenge other posters on who they're planning to vote for.

oscarBravo

Spudman_20000 wrote: »

Seriously? It wasn't directed at the people of Castlebar?

It's clear who it was directed at, if you look at what he said rather than what you've decided he meant.

You've been quick enough to post here what you think this government has done for Mayo in the past 5 years e.g. national broadband plan, N5 and N59 (all "in progress" by the way, no guarantee that they will actually be delivered). You've also asked repeatedly "who should we vote for so?" as if there couldn't possibly be any other option than what we have already.

If you have some affiliation with Fine Gael or are just a supporter, then that's fine but you should be more up front about it on here, especially if you're going to challenge other posters on who they're planning to vote for.

It took longer than I expected for someone to suggest that I'm a FG supporter.

I've pointed out things the government has done in response to the accusation that they've done nothing. I've asked who we should vote for and why, in response to the idea that the current government won't deliver and therefore don't deserve votes - if you're going to withhold a vote on the basis that promises won't be fulfilled, then you'd better be very sure that whomever you vote for will fulfil their promises.

And that's my core point: double standards. People will cheerfully proclaim that they're not going to vote for Enda Kenny because he hasn't brought thousands of well-paid jobs to Castlebar. Which is fine, but if you're going to vote for Rose Conway-Walsh instead, it better be on the basis that you're confident that she will deliver those jobs - and if you're confident about that, I'd like to know why.

Spudman_20000

oscarBravo wrote: »

It's clear who it was directed at, if you look at what he said rather than what you've decided he meant.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/election-2016/taoiseach-mayos-whingers-dont-see-any-good-34471273.html

"God knows we have some All-Ireland champions here in Castlebar. I don't mean Castlebar Mitchells [GAA club], I mean the whingers that I hear every week saying there's nothing happening."

Later, he was asked what he meant by whingers.

"Locals - nothing to with national politics at all. Obviously, you get this all the time but sometimes I find that people find it very difficult to see any good anywhere, anytime."

OK, you tell me, who was this comment direct at, if it's so clear? I think you'd have to agree that you are in the minority in thinking it wasn't directed at the citizens of Castlebar.

He was asked flat out on Sunday did he want to withdraw the remark, and he said "no", with a smirk on his face.

oscarBravo wrote: »

It took longer than I expected for someone to suggest that I'm a FG supporter.

I don't hear a denial.

oscarBravo wrote: »

And that's my core point: double standards. People will cheerfully proclaim that they're not going to vote for Enda Kenny because he hasn't brought thousands of well-paid jobs to Castlebar. Which is fine, but if you're going to vote for Rose Conway-Walsh instead, it better be on the basis that you're confident that she will deliver those jobs - and if you're confident about that, I'd like to know why.

None of us have a crystal ball, so no one can say that they can honestly predict whether any candidate can deliver or fulfil the promises being made, and to suggest otherwise is a bit disingenuous.

If other posters are unhappy with the current government, why shouldn't they give someone new a shot.

oscarBravo

Spudman_20000 wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/election-2016/taoiseach-mayos-whingers-dont-see-any-good-34471273.html

"God knows we have some All-Ireland champions here in Castlebar. I don't mean Castlebar Mitchells [GAA club], I mean the whingers that I hear every week saying there's nothing happening."

Later, he was asked what he meant by whingers.

"Locals - nothing to with national politics at all. Obviously, you get this all the time but sometimes I find that people find it very difficult to see any good anywhere, anytime."

OK, you tell me, who was this comment direct at, if it's so clear? I think you'd have to agree that you are in the minority in thinking it wasn't directed at the citizens of Castlebar.

I'm certainly in the minority in not jumping to conclusions as to who he must have meant, and then sticking to my guns at all costs. Maybe I should have found a dog in the street to ask.

He said that we have some whingers in Castlebar. This, bizarrely, has been interpreted as meaning that everyone in Castlebar is a whinger. If I said that we have some criminals in Castlebar, does that mean that everyone in Castlebar is a criminal? If I said that we have some entrepreneurs in Castlebar, does that mean that everyone in Castlebar is an entrepreneur?

I don't hear a denial.

I'm not a FG supporter. I'm a floating voter who'll probably vote FG this time out.

None of us have a crystal ball, so no one can say that they can honestly predict whether any candidate can deliver or fulfil the promises being made, and to suggest otherwise is a bit disingenuous.

Unless, of course, we're confidently predicting that the currently sitting TDs won't deliver anything at all.

If other posters are unhappy with the current government, why shouldn't they give someone new a shot.

As you've rightly pointed out, people are free to vote for whomever they like, and I'm free to point out that double standards are apparently being applied.

Spudman_20000

oscarBravo wrote: »

I'm certainly in the minority in not jumping to conclusions as to who he must have meant, and then sticking to my guns at all costs. Maybe I should have found a dog in the street to ask.

He said that we have some whingers in Castlebar. This, bizarrely, has been interpreted as meaning that everyone in Castlebar is a whinger. If I said that we have some criminals in Castlebar, does that mean that everyone in Castlebar is a criminal? If I said that we have some entrepreneurs in Castlebar, does that mean that everyone in Castlebar is an entrepreneur?

But wasn't your point earlier that he wasn't saying it about locals?

oscarBravo wrote: »

He didn't say "locals are whingers". It was very, very successfully spun into that by his political opponents, and it seems that all too many people decided to interpret it that way in order to successfully take offence to it; but he didn't say it.

I didn't say he was saying it about all locals, although I could see how his comment could be interpreted as being about a very large amount of them, especially given the amount the criticism he's been getting in his own constituency.

You certainly can't be accused of sticking to your guns, seeing as you're now throwing in an argument about the number of locals he was talking about. Talk about a straw man argument. Ever considered a role in politics?

oscarBravo wrote: »

Unless, of course, we're confidently predicting that the currently sitting TDs won't deliver anything at all.

It might be something we could predict, given the past 5 years.

nuac

Oscar Bravo

1. The "whinger" remark clearly referred to local people. The qualification that he was talking about local FF politicians came very much later. Possibly a spindoctor's brainfart. Did those highly paid lads and lassies ever hear about holes and digging?

I cannot understand why he didn't apologise by next morning. Not to apologise asap was bad manners and worse politics.

2. We all remember the intensive campaigns by FG in GE 2007 and GE2011 to support Enda and FG so that there would be a Mayo Taoiseach. It was represented that a Mayo Taoiseach would be good fpr the county and bring a lot to Mayo. Jobs, investment, roads etc etc. Hasn't happened to the extent indicated.

I know of some businesses that are still barely getting by, and experiencing difficulties. But to mention those difficulties is now "whinging" in the FG lexicon.

oscarBravo

Spudman_20000 wrote: »

But wasn't your point earlier that he wasn't saying it about locals?

No, that wasn't my point, and you're actually making my point for me by arguing with what you've decided I mean instead of what I say.

I didn't say he was saying it about all locals...

Let's have a look at what nuac and you actually did say:

nuac wrote: »

I was amazed when I heard the "locals are whingers" jibe.

Spudman_20000 wrote: »

Seriously? It wasn't directed at the people of Castlebar?

He didn't say "locals are whingers", and no, it wasn't directed at the people of Castlebar, any more than if I said "there are criminals in Castlebar" would I be saying that Castlebar people are criminals.

...although I could see how his comment could be interpreted as being about a very large amount of them, especially given the amount the criticism he's been getting in his own constituency.

It was aimed at people who claim that nothing positive has happened in the last five years. Like I said, an ill-judged remark, but valid criticism of what he said has been completely swamped by hysterical over-reaction to what people have unilaterally decided he meant.

You certainly can't be accused of sticking to your guns, seeing as you're now throwing in an argument about the number of locals he was talking about. Talk about a straw man argument. Ever considered a role in politics?

Hell, no. One thing is abundantly clear: as a politician, you can't speak your mind without large swathes of the population having fainting spells.

It might be something we could predict, given the past 5 years.

And yet again, you make my point: you're happy to make predictions about sitting TDs, but it's deeply unfair for me to ask you to make predictions about the other candidates.

I don't know what the sitting TDs will achieve if re-elected. I don't know what the other candidates will achieve if elected. I can draw my own conclusions as to what any of them are likely to achieve. None of that is controversial. My point was, and continues to be, about double standards.

naughto

Will ya put on the blue shirt and be done with it .....if u haven't it on all ready

Lissavane

nuac wrote: »

Oscar Bravo

1. The "whinger" remark clearly referred to local people. The qualification that he was talking about local FF politicians came very much later. Possibly a spindoctor's brainfart. Did those highly paid lads and lassies ever hear about holes and digging?

I cannot understand why he didn't apologise by next morning. Not to apologise asap was bad manners and worse politics.

2. We all remember the intensive campaigns by FG in GE 2007 and GE2011 to support Enda and FG so that there would be a Mayo Taoiseach. It was represented that a Mayo Taoiseach would be good fpr the county and bring a lot to Mayo. Jobs, investment, roads etc etc. Hasn't happened to the extent indicated.

I know of some businesses that are still barely getting by, and experiencing difficulties. But to mention those difficulties is now "whinging" in the FG lexicon.

I agree entirely!

Your points at 2 above reflect EXACTLY what what I've been hearing from Castlebar friends for a year or more, as each repeated promise of new industry and jobs failed to materialise.

Most of those people are not commited to any party but one, in particular, always voted FF previously but voted FG 1,2,3 and 4, in the hope that a Mayo Taoiseach and 3 TDs would reap rewards for Castlebar and the county. That's what the Kenny canvassers were promising on the doorsteps.

There seems to be a lot of disappointed Mayo voters and they're not all FFers!

finisklin

Inda really has shot himself in the foot in this campaign and has damaged himself and the party both locally and nationally.

His reluctance to disassociate himself from Michael Lowry early on in the campaign velcro-ed the media to him until he had to cave in 2 days later.

The signs were not good at this stage.

The messaging on keep the recovery going ignored the fact that there is a two tier economy one in Dublin and then outside it. Given that Enda is from a rural constituency and bought into this mantra from his professional advisers (and the copious focus groups that were used to validate this message) really shows how ungrounded the campaign was. There is no recovery to keep going in Mayo - it hasn't started! How many empty shops in main st Castlebar?

I am not going to get into fiscal space. Spin at its best. Even Inda was hood winked by this and left at times unable to explain it.

It would have been powerful to see Michael Ring take the Brian Cowen role that he performed so well in the 2007 election and ram home how FG are bringing the recovery home to the West, or something like that. No better man than Ringer - a rural icon and man of the Whest.

Then Inda's admission that he appointed John McNulty to the board of the IMMA during the leaders debate was a gaffe he didn't need.

The whingers comment is already commented on here. Needless to say it hasn't added political value to Kenny or FG in Mayo.

For me, this campaign really has let those voters that were FF and voted FG in 2011 return to their FF roots, so to speak.

No question that FF wrecked the country on their watch and now FG have left a back door open for them to regain ground which should never have been surrendered that easily.

IMHO, Inda can't recover from this and if the result is as bad as the meeja are indicating for FG, then his days as Taoiseach and leader of FG are over.

Will MM scrap in? She had a chance before Inda's put his feet in it.

Let's watch the Mayo blood bath first and see politicians of all codes experience democracy at first hand. The best part of the campaign is about to begin.

monument

farmchoice wrote: »

all the pundits are calling it ring kenny and calleary as taking the first 3.
im going to make a bold prediction here and say that chambers takes the third seat and leaves calleary in a dog fight for the 4th with conway-walsh.

the ballina area FF vote can be shaky, they jettisoned tom moffat for jerry crowley in 2002 for no apparent reason, if chambers has made any head way in the foxford, charlestown, swinford area then she will do much better then expected.

The Ballina area did not jettison Moffat for no apparent reason. There was an apparent reason -- rightly or wrongly he was named Dr Do Little because there was a very strong and wide-spread impression that he did little. I could be wrong but there isn't such a swing against Calleary -- Calleary is seen as a good local opposition TD. The local Ballina area negative focus is all on Mulherin. There is no other credible local candidate.

Chambers is up against it in a number of ways -- (1) her party having a TD: her party has a sitting TD and it's not clear they can support two yet in the county, (2) the local vote: her support base around the Castlebar area is dented by Kenny [unless Kenny's gaff has dented that in a large way], and (3) her party's brand: FF is still toxic for many people.

But I could be wrong. Factors going for her this time is the next strongest local candidate last time (Michael Kilcoyne) isn't running and she's likely to get a significant number of those local votes.

You mention Foxford, Charlestown, Swinford -- the Ballina candidates seem to be focusing on those areas or others. Because I've heard from a few people in different areas that they have not been canvassed by one or the other local TDs or that they have canvassed but only by representatives of the TDs (no sorry I missed you notes)... maybe the few people I was talking to were all fringe cases but it could be that the Ballina TDs are focusing on areas away from the town -- that could be a dangerous strategy which might lose them more first preferences than they gain elsewhere.

Rose Conway Walsh, with SF only running one candidate (it was crazy running two), will have a good chance of getting a reasonable position on the list of first preferences. But the with many independents the "protest vote" might be a bit too dispersed and if the first preference vote isn't very high SF don't have a good transfer record.

oscarBravo wrote: »

He didn't say "locals are whingers". It was very, very successfully spun into that by his political opponents, and it seems that all too many people decided to interpret it that way in order to successfully take offence to it; but he didn't say it.

He should have been more careful with what he said, but it's a bit much getting annoyed about something he didn't say.

From The Irish Times who are hardly cheerleaders of any of the opposition:

In a questions and answers session with reporters after his speech, the Taoiseach was specifically asked who he was referring to his in comments about “whingers”. “Locals”, he replied. “Nothing to do with national politics at all. Obviously you get this all the time. Sometimes I find that people find it difficult to see any good anywhere anytime.”

I've heard some of the fairer political journalists and journalists read it exactly the same way -- it was very late when he changed it to focus on FF.

He was given ample time in the hours and 24 hours to backtrack or clarify but he did not.

oscarBravo wrote: »

He didn't say "locals are whingers", and no, it wasn't directed at the people of Castlebar, any more than if I said "there are criminals in Castlebar" would I be saying that Castlebar people are criminals..../QUOTE]

It's not like you saying that at all. A Taoiseach or TD or minister making a very large generalisation about "locals" in their own area is an amazingly bad idea even if he was including clear caveats, which he did not.

For the record: I think there's some truth to what he was saying. But it's not something a Taoiseach, TD or minister can say -- generally it's a bad idea, a poorer idea saying it when he's not clear in what he says, a poorer idea when so many people have valid reasons for complaining after years of cuts, and an even poorer idea in the heat of an election. Those things mixed altogether is a recipe for trouble and, in most people's eyes, there's no defending what he said.

finisklin wrote: »

IMHO, Inda can't recover from this and if the result is as bad as the meeja are indicating for FG, then his days as Taoiseach and leader of FG are over.

Will MM scrap in? She had a chance before Inda's put his feet in it.

Let's watch the Mayo blood bath first and see politicians of all codes experience democracy at first hand. The best part of the campaign is about to begin.

He might not top the polls but Kenny's seat and position as leader is likely safe (unless FG really underperform, and there's no clear signs of that yet). If he's done major damage in Mayo, he's likely done the most damage to Mulherin -- both in her drop of seats and less transfers.

It sure will be interesting to watch the ballots come out of the boxes in Mayo...

corsav6

Well Enda was busy in Castlebar today. He popped into all the shops on main Street, didn't take him long in fairness with half of them closed.
Most people went about their business and took no heed of him, an old lady crossed the street to avoid him.
I think the "locals are whingers" remark hasn't gone down too well in Castlebar.

oscarBravo

monument wrote: »

...in most people's eyes, there's no defending what he said.

I haven't defended what he said. I've pointed out that he didn't say what people seem to be attacking him for saying.

But, in what passes for rational discussion around Irish politics, either he called everyone in Castlebar a whinger, or I'm a card-carrying, paid-up member of Fine Gael.

And that's why I'll never be a politician. I'm a rational person, and there is precisely zero scope for logic in the never-ending bunfight that is Irish politics, whipped up by a cynical media and devoured by a public too busy seething with anger to do any actual thinking.

corsav6 wrote: »

I think the "locals are whingers" remark hasn't gone down too well in Castlebar.

The mind boggles.

Xenji

Regardless of how people took the "whingers" remark, it has been the talk of the town and quite a few do believe that it was aimed at the local population, but we will see tomorrow how these people vote.

corsav6

oscarBravo wrote: »

The mind boggles.

May I ask why?

oscarBravo

corsav6 wrote: »

May I ask why?

He. Didn't. Say. "locals are whingers".

Yes, I get it: people decided that's what he meant. My personal opinion is that if he consciously decided to insult the entire population of his home town in the week before an election, he probably can't figure out how to button his own shirt. And if you genuinely believe that Enda Kenny is a profoundly stupid person, then we'll agree to differ.

corsav6

oscarBravo wrote: »

He. Didn't. Say. "locals are whingers".

Yes, I get it: people decided that's what he meant. My personal opinion is that if he consciously decided to insult the entire population of his home town in the week before an election, he probably can't figure out how to button his own shirt. And if you genuinely believe that Enda Kenny is a profoundly stupid person, then we'll agree to differ.

I'm working in a place on Main St and have spoken to plenty of people over the last couple of days. The majority of people I spoke to have taken his comments as been an insult to the people of the town, and most are annoyed at this.
Today he should have been surrounded by people supporting him in his home town, but instead the majority either avoided him or just couldn't give a sh*t.
I personally don't believe his comments were aimed solely at FF members, but I don't think he meant every person in Castlebar either.
Either way it was a foolish comment which has had no positive impact on the FG campaign.

godskitchen

It doesn't matter if he ment to insult the locals with the Whingers comment (he clearly was talking about people in Castlebar in my opinion)

Making the comment and leaving it open to interpretation, then coming up with a half arsed excuse and refusing to apologise and laughing about it and finally offering to retract it.....

To me that shows judgement equally as bad as calling the people who elect you ungrateful.

This is the man we trust to make decisions for us not just nationally but internationally? No thanks.

If he really is the best we have to offer in the West then its time we did as many on here seem to be longing for and turn the place into a theme park with bikes and cakes......

oscarBravo

oscarBravo wrote: »

I haven't defended what he said. I've pointed out that he didn't say what people seem to be attacking him for saying.

“These people are All-Ireland champions when it comes to whingeing”, Mr Kenny said.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/enda-kenny-describes-castlebar-locals-as-whingers-1.2543279

I honestly have no idea how you're defending this (or pointing out that he didn't say what people seem to be attacking him for saying, it's there in black and white.)

"In a questions and answers session with reporters after his speech, the Taoiseach was specifically asked who he was referring to his in comments about “whingers”.
“Locals”, he replied. “Nothing to do with national politics at all."

gizmo555

Got my water bill in this morning's post - can't imagine it'll help FG to have these arriving on polling day!

oscarBravo

Deleted User wrote: »

I honestly have no idea how you're defending this...

I honestly have no idea how you think I'm defending it.

Maybe stop arguing with what you've decided I mean, and actually pay attention to what I've said.

Oh wait.

Xenji

I know the busiest time for polling stations is from 6-10, but not one other person was in my polling station when I went in a half hour ago.

irishgeo

Xenji wrote: »

I know the busiest time for polling stations is from 6-10, but not one other person was in my polling station when I went in a half hour ago.

turnout around 15% nationwide, pretty quiet for a dry day.

oscarBravo

Steady, but not busy, in Westport in the last hour.

PáircLife

Do ye think the number of people voting favours a certain politician or party?

Spudman_20000

PáircLife wrote: »

Do ye think the number of people voting favours a certain politician or party?

I'd assume a low turnout would be better for the existing parties to return to government, as that would indicate that mostly die hard supporters were voting.

I just hope people get out and vote. No point whinging afterwards.

Xenji

It's not looking good for FG after tonight's exit poll, it will be interesting to see how the candidates fared come tomorrow.

Cosmo Kramer

Ring has seen the exit poll and is suddenly now open to a coalition with Fianna Fail. If the results for Fine Gael are as bad as predicted, Kenny will have 'won' the election but will be unlikely to survive as Taoiseach, the leadership will be much more Dublin centric in the next government and Kenny will have let a huge opportunity he was given for Mayo five years ago pass him by.

kupus

Im not worrying about Kenny, Im sure he'll have a nice lil earner from the EU after all the hardship he has gone through getting all the belts tightened. Hes had 5 years to get things moving and I think it would have moved anyway no matter who was in power cos the world outside Ireland picked up.

Its the dreaded double dip Im worrying about. For the first time in a long time I dont know where the real money is. Its not in oil, mining or construction, the usual indicators. Its not in tech anymore, cos funding seems to be drying up.. China is in a hole, USA is in a bigger one, europe is going up in flames this year, UK will be leaving EU. Saudi is gunning for a proxy war with Russia. North Africa is all tapped out. Southern africa is a shambles. Oz relies on china, I cant say anything about South America cos I havent done anything there in a couple years. Its going to be an interesting year, but those see you next tuesdays in the dail wont have anything ever to worry about.
so **** FG
**** FF
**** SF
**** Lab
**** renua
**** greens
**** ind
**** pppaaa
and last **** everyone of their "I'll help you smile, but Im all right jack", attitude... summed up by getting a mass card from someone we dont even know. No prizes for guessing who sent it.