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Entitlement of US-born descendant of Northern-Ireland born grandpa to ROI passport
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13-02-2016 6:55pm#1Hi. The American-born daughter of a friend hopes to obtain "dual citizenship" (USA and Irish) on the basis that her grandfather was born in Northern Ireland in 1920. The family emigrated to US when he was very young. Given grandfather's birth-date (1920) in what has alwayBritain/United Kingdom, would the daughter be entitled to a ROI or British passport (or neither?)0
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Hi. The American-born daughter of a friend hopes to obtain "dual citizenship" (USA and Irish) on the basis that her grandfather was born in Northern Ireland in 1920. The family emigrated to US when he was very young. Given grandfather's birth-date (1920) in what has alwayBritain/United Kingdom, would the daughter be entitled to a ROI or British passport (or neither?)
Her mother would have had to apply herself before the daughter was born. Did she?0 -
I'm no expert at all but my understanding is that its only the ROI that is so lenient. If it was her dad born before 1922 then she would be entitled to a brit passport I think, but not a grandparent.
For the ROI her grandpa would have to still be alive I think?0 -
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/irish_citizenship_through_birth_or_descent.htmlCitizenship through descent from Irish grandparents
If one of your grandparents is an Irish citizen who was born in Ireland, but none of your parents was born in Ireland, you may become an Irish citizen. You will need to have your birth registered in the Foreign Births Register.
If you are entitled to register, your Irish citizenship is effective from the date of registration. The Irish citizenship of successive generations may be maintained in this way by each generation ensuring their registration in the Foreign Births Register before the birth of the next generation.
Since 1 July 1986, a person registered in the Foreign Births Entry Book after 1986 is deemed to be an Irish citizen only from the date of his/her entry in the Register and not from the date of birth. This means that children born to that person before his/her date of entry in the Register are not entitled to citizenship.
People registered before July 1986 are deemed Irish citizens either from the date the original Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act came into force, that is, 17 July 1956, or their date of birth, whichever is later. Only children born after 17 July 1956 can claim citizenship in such cases.
Other Irish ancestors
Unless at least one parent or an Irish-born grandparent was an Irish citizen at the time of your birth, you cannot claim Irish citizenship on the basis of extended previous ancestry (that is, ancestors other than your parents or grandparents). In addition, you cannot claim Irish citizenship on the basis that relation such as a cousin, aunt or uncle was an Irish citizen if none of your parents or grandparents was an Irish citizen at the time of your birth.
There is an easier explanation in the link, but contacting the Irish department of foreign affairs will clear it up for your friend.Where to apply
Contact your nearest Irish embassy or consulate
Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade
Foreign Births Register
Consular Section
80 St Stephen's Green
Dublin 2
Ireland
Opening Hours:Monday to Friday, 10am - 1pm
Tel:+353 1 408 2555
Homepage: https://www.dfa.ie/passports-citizenship/citizenship/born-abroad/registering-a-foreign-birth/
Citizenship Division
Department of Justice Office
Rosanna Road
Tipperary Town
Tipperary
Ireland
Opening Hours:Helpline: 10:00 am -12:30 pm, Tuesdays and Thursdays only
Tel:+353 62 32500
Locall:1890 25 28 54
Homepage: http://www.inis.gov.ie/0 -
Her grandfather was born in Ireland so yes she can apply for FBR. When she gets the certificate she can then apply for an Irish passport.
What U.S. state does your friend live in?0 -
Hi. The American-born daughter of a friend hopes to obtain "dual citizenship" (USA and Irish) on the basis that her grandfather was born in Northern Ireland in 1920. The family emigrated to US when he was very young. Given grandfather's birth-date (1920) in what has alwayBritain/United Kingdom, would the daughter be entitled to a ROI or British passport (or neither?)
She is entitled to citizenship but will have to apply for foreign birth registration first. Once she gets that she can apply for an Irish passport (she will have to provide: proof of name, proof of address, photo ID, US birth certificate and FBR certificate).0 -
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http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/irish_citizenship_through_birth_or_descent.html
There is an easier explanation in the link, but contacting the Irish department of foreign affairs will clear it up for your friend.
Seems the daughter's ambition to register is outside the time-limit, and her mother has not registered herself, though planned to do so when she visits Ireland next month. Thank you for that superb link RobertKK. I thought grand-daughter's expectation of eligibility on such a time-extension of a long-dead grandparent was unlikely. Bad news. I shall pass on the link which will save her spending time searching out documentation.0 -
JohnMearsheimer wrote: »She is entitled to citizenship but will have to apply for foreign birth registration first. Once she gets that she can apply for an Irish passport (she will have to provide: proof of name, proof of address, photo ID, US birth certificate and FBR certificate).
So.......eligible for retrospective IRISH citizenship even though Northern Ireland was not part of the Irish Free State when her grandfather was born there in 1920 and held a British passport? My friend will try to obtain FBR when she comes in March but how long must she have held this to entitle her daughter (who is American born and bred and now in her late 30's) to claim Irish citizenship? Every other person I meet in the USA claims an Irish ancestral link but this is the first instance I've encountered of an individual formalising it thus. Certainly would swell the ranks of the Irish diaspora if this retrospective registration is an option.0 -
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JohnMearsheimer wrote: »She is entitled to citizenship but will have to apply for foreign birth registration first. Once she gets that she can apply for an Irish passport (she will have to provide: proof of name, proof of address, photo ID, US birth certificate and FBR certificate).
The citizenship claim is being made by the daughter of my (not currently registered Foreign-born) friend.
RobertKK wrote:
The Irish citizenship of successive generations may be maintained in this way by each generation ensuring their registration in the Foreign Births Register before the birth of the next generation.
Since 1 July 1986, a person registered in the Foreign Births Entry Book after 1986 is deemed to be an Irish citizen only from the date of his/her entry in the Register and not from the date of birth. This means that children born to that person before his/her date of entry in the Register are not entitled to citizenship.
My friend - now in her 60's - has not yet registered as foreign-born Irish as she herself had no interest in maintaining Irish citizenship. It is her daughter who is trying to retrospectively re-activate the connection.....for reasons presently unknown to me!0 -
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The process of registering a foreign birth is documented here...
https://www.dfa.ie/passports-citizenship/citizenship/born-abroad/registering-a-foreign-birth/0 -
So.......eligible for retrospective IRISH citizenship even though Northern Ireland was not part of the Irish Free State when her grandfather was born there in 1920 and held a British passport? My friend will try to obtain FBR when she comes in March but how long must she have held this to entitle her daughter (who is American born and bred and now in her late 30's) to claim Irish citizenship? Every other person I meet in the USA claims an Irish ancestral link but this is the first instance I've encountered of an individual formalising it thus. Certainly would swell the ranks of the Irish diaspora if this retrospective registration is an option.
You just have to be born on the island of Ireland. Ireland has far more citizens than people actually living here.
The grandparent's child does not have to apply for FBR. They can apply for a passport as the child of someone born in Ireland. They need proof of name, proof of address, US birth cert, photo ID, parent's birth cert showing they were born in Ireland and parent's marriage cert (if applicable).
The grandchild of the grandparent will have to apply for FBR.
All of these can be applied for through the nearest Irish embassy or consulate. It's probably better that they don't apply in Ireland. Every FBR cert I've seen has been issued by an embassy.0 -
Or Consulate.
In your friends case in Iowa this link will be her starting point:
https://www.dfa.ie/irish-consulate/chicago/our-services/citizenship/born-outside-ireland/foreign-births-registration-guide/
Make sure she reads thoroughly the documents required and understands the fee schedule. Send all documents and fee by FedEx to the Consulate in Chicago.
All going well your friend should have her FBR cert and then can apply for her passport within this year.0 -
Or Consulate.
In your friends case in Iowa this link will be her starting point:
https://www.dfa.ie/irish-consulate/chicago/our-services/citizenship/born-outside-ireland/foreign-births-registration-guide/
Make sure she reads thoroughly the documents required and understands the fee schedule. Send all documents and fee by FedEx to the Consulate in Chicago.
All going well your friend should have her FBR cert and then can apply for her passport within this year.
Thank you for that Shoveller for that useful link which I have passed on. She is coming to Ireland shortly and will track down the documentation she needs whilst she is here. Thanks to all for these responses.0 -
Greetings from a relatively newly minted Irish citizen. I started the FBR process a couple years ago. You need to have patience as the process can be very long. I also went through the Chicago Consulate.
Both of my mother's parents were born in Ireland (Clare and Kerry) in the 1880s. My mother was born in the US but was automatically an Irish citizen, even though she never got an Irish passport or other documentation. You only need one grandparent born on the island, so I went with my grandfather since it was one less name change record to get.
There should be no need for your friend's daughter to waste valuable vacation time searching for records in Ireland. You can order them online. I expected it would take forever to get my grandfather's birth certificate from the 1880s, but had it in my mailbox in Michigan a week after I ordered it online. It took me longer to get my mother's records locally.
She will need certified, long form birth certificates for herself, parent and grandparent. If the parent/grandparent are still alive, she needs a copy of a drivers license or passport. If deceased, a certified death certificate. If there are surname changes along the line you will also need certified marriage licences or other official documents. She will also need a photocopy of ID - drivers license or US/other passport and proof of residence documents, such as utility bills. Four passport photos also I think. Obviously double check the official dfa website in case I missed anything.
Once she has everything she can do the online application and print it out. You then need a signature witness that must be a member of a list of professions including member of clergy, bank manager, police officer, .... Notaries are not acceptable.
I could not find the actual price anywhere so I had to call the Chicago consulate. I think the application fee was about $350 and must be made by money order or cashiers check - no personal checks or credit cards.
I assembled everything into a nice neat package along with a photocopy of all of the certified document and mailed it away in March 2014. Using USPS flat rate envelops will be cheaper than UPS/FedEx and get there just as fast with delivery confirmation. You hear nothing after that. I was told it would take at least a year to process, but I got the FBR certificate just before Christmas - about nine months. They also returned all of the original documents.
For the passport you have to request an application from the consulate. They are bar coded and scanable, so you can't just download it. Now you need to send back much of the documentation you had above plus your new FBR certificate and another money order. The passport fee was $120 in May when I applied. The turnaround estimate was five months, but I didn't get it for nine. About eight of those months were sitting in Chicago. When it finally hit the online system in Ireland it was printed within a week and back to me about 10 days after that.
Helpful hints:
1. Do not send cashiers checks that expire. Chicago bounced my passport application back to me because the cashiers check was only good for 90 days. I had to go back to my bank and have them reissue it. USPS money orders worked for the FBR fee.
2. Include your US birth certificate with the passport application even if it isn't requested on the passport application. Another reason they bounced it back, even though I am 99% sure it said FBR OR birth certificate.
3. The Chicago Consulate was helpful and promptly replied to e-mail questions, so just e-mail them if you have questions.
4. Take the passport photo sample sheet with you for passport photos. The metric size is slightly narrower and the rules about how your face must fill the frame are different than US passport requirements they are used to here. I got mine done at Costco, but found that my face did not fill enough of the frame. I ended up scanning it to my computer, enlarging it slightly and reprinting to the corner drug store to be sure it complied. Basically they need to take the picture slightly closer to you than normal for a US passport.
5. Be patient.0 -
Greetings from a relatively newly minted Irish citizen. I started the FBR process a couple years ago. You need to have patience as the process can be very long. I also went through the Chicago Consulate.
Both of my mother's parents were born in Ireland (Clare and Kerry) in the 1880s. My mother was born in the US but was automatically an Irish citizen, even though she never got an Irish passport or other documentation. You only need one grandparent born on the island, so I went with my grandfather since it was one less name change record to get.
There should be no need for your friend's daughter to waste valuable vacation time searching for records in Ireland. You can order them online. I expected it would take forever to get my grandfather's birth certificate from the 1880s, but had it in my mailbox in Michigan a week after I ordered it online. It took me longer to get my mother's records locally.
She will need certified, long form birth certificates for herself, parent and grandparent. If the parent/grandparent are still alive, she needs a copy of a drivers license or passport. If deceased, a certified death certificate. If there are surname changes along the line you will also need certified marriage licences or other official documents. She will also need a photocopy of ID - drivers license or US/other passport and proof of residence documents, such as utility bills. Four passport photos also I think. Obviously double check the official dfa website in case I missed anything.
Once she has everything she can do the online application and print it out. You then need a signature witness that must be a member of a list of professions including member of clergy, bank manager, police officer, .... Notaries are not acceptable.
I could not find the actual price anywhere so I had to call the Chicago consulate. I think the application fee was about $350 and must be made by money order or cashiers check - no personal checks or credit cards.
I assembled everything into a nice neat package along with a photocopy of all of the certified document and mailed it away in March 2014. Using USPS flat rate envelops will be cheaper than UPS/FedEx and get there just as fast with delivery confirmation. You hear nothing after that. I was told it would take at least a year to process, but I got the FBR certificate just before Christmas - about nine months. They also returned all of the original documents.
For the passport you have to request an application from the consulate. They are bar coded and scanable, so you can't just download it. Now you need to send back much of the documentation you had above plus your new FBR certificate and another money order. The passport fee was $120 in May when I applied. The turnaround estimate was five months, but I didn't get it for nine. About eight of those months were sitting in Chicago. When it finally hit the online system in Ireland it was printed within a week and back to me about 10 days after that.
Helpful hints:
1. Do not send cashiers checks that expire. Chicago bounced my passport application back to me because the cashiers check was only good for 90 days. I had to go back to my bank and have them reissue it. USPS money orders worked for the FBR fee.
2. Include your US birth certificate with the passport application even if it isn't requested on the passport application. Another reason they bounced it back, even though I am 99% sure it said FBR OR birth certificate.
3. The Chicago Consulate was helpful and promptly replied to e-mail questions, so just e-mail them if you have questions.
4. Take the passport photo sample sheet with you for passport photos. The metric size is slightly narrower and the rules about how your face must fill the frame are different than US passport requirements they are used to here. I got mine done at Costco, but found that my face did not fill enough of the frame. I ended up scanning it to my computer, enlarging it slightly and reprinting to the corner drug store to be sure it complied. Basically they need to take the picture slightly closer to you than normal for a US passport.
5. Be patient.
Wow! This is tremendous..........just the sort of practical information which will help. I got back to the USA myself last night and shall see my friend this coming weekend and will pass on this information so she can begin the process BEFORE she goes to Ireland in a few weeks' time. Yes - I agree with you about the Irish Consulate in Chicago which from personal experience is splendid. Thank you so much. It does sound as if her daughter (the person actually interested in Irish citizenship) may have to wait quite a while since her mother (my friend) must herself complete the application process, as, from previous posts, eligibility depends on there being no "skipped" generation.0 -
I am 99% sure that she does not have to wait for her mother to do anything. The only difference vs my application is that my grandparents were born in what is now the ROI while hers in what is now NI. My mother never did anything to document her Irish citizenship and I had no problem going through FBR. The rule I have seen is "born on the island of Ireland", not "born in the Republic of Ireland".
The mother should be able to go straight to applying for an Irish passport if desired. If that is the case, I would contact the consulate and ask if they can use the same certified birth certificates for the mother and grandfather - that would save buying extra copies. I think my grandfathers birth certificate ran about $40 from Ireland. Everything else was local. I do recall reading somewhere that they would process FBR for siblings using a single parent/grandparent document package, but it is likely a passport goes to a different office so they might need two copies.
This is the cover page I sent with my application showing exactly what I sent. Hope it helps:
===============================
Enclosed you will find the following documentation for my application for inclusion on the Foreign Births Registry. For your convenience I have also included a second packet containing photocopies of all documents. Please return the originals after processing is completed. A cashier’s check for $351.00 payable to the Consulate General of Ireland is also included.
Tom001 (Applicant)
• FB1A Form
• Two passport size photos (attached to FB1A page 2)
• Birth Certificate (Certified)
• US Passport & Michigan Drivers License (Photocopy)
• Proof of Address – Internet & Cable Bill
• Proof of Address – Property Tax Statement
• Proof of Address – Mortgage Statement
Mother's Name (Parent)
• Birth Certificate, Long Form (Certified)
• Birth Certificate, Wallet (Certified)
(there was a spelling and gender discrepancy between the two documents I had, with the long form being incorrect. The consulate told me to send both)
• Marriage Certificate to my father (Certified)
• Michigan Drivers License (Photocopy)
Grandfather's Name (Grandparent – Deceased)
• Birth Certificate (Certified)
• Death Certificate (Certified)0 -
Thank you so much and I have printed out and shall pass on to her. The process is clearly much simpler than she envisaged, our conversation about this commencing with "During my trip to Ireland in March I need to track down family documents to enable my daughter to pursue an application for Irish citizenship." I assumed she had already done the basic research and that the only problematic issues were the location and date of (my friend's) father's birth and (my friend's) daughter's birth-date to a mother who, though having an Irish father, had never applied for Irish citizenship thus constituting a "skipped generation". It appears from all the posts that these factors are irrelevant and mother (my friend) is "automatically" an Irish citizen and her daughter's application for Irish citizenship is a straightforward matter of applying online from the USA to an Irish Consulate.
Many thanks to all for the clarifications and links.0
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