Notice to quit for improvements

Dubgal72

Quick question, advice needed please.
My friend is out of her mind with worry. The estate agent she rents from is threatening 84 days notice to quit so landlord can improve the property 'to market standards'. All this because she asked for a few improvements to go alongside the recently increased rent (increase of 150 pcm). She has been living there for three years and lease is up for renewal. Rent has always been paid and she has been a model tenant. Can landlord do this?

Renovations is one of the reasons for which a part 4 tenancy can be terminated once the required notice is given, 84 days is correct if she is there 3 years.

Dubgal72

Jane Cold Garage wrote: »

Renovations is one of the reasons for which a part 4 tenancy can be terminated once the required notice is given, 84 days is correct if she is there 3 years.

Ah, oh dear and thank you. This confirms my quick look at PRTB website. So it really seems like she is being punished for asking for improvements to go along with rent increase. An email to landlord was accidentally copied to her and the estate agent calls her (tenant) "cheeky" re improvements. I saw the original email and the requested improvements are actually very reasonable and minor. Not sure if they would require closure of property.

Graces7

Dubgal72 wrote: »

Ah, oh dear and thank you. This confirms my quick look at PRTB website. So it really seems like she is being punished for asking for improvements to go along with rent increase. An email to landlord was accidentally copied to her and the estate agent calls her (tenant) "cheeky" re improvements. I saw the original email and the requested improvements are actually very reasonable and minor. Not sure if they would require closure of property.

And folk here say that tenants have all the power! So sorry. What was the agent thinking of though? It is the agent behind this

godtabh

Graces7 wrote: »

And folk here say that tenants have all the power! So sorry. What was the agent thinking of though? It is the agent behind this

Nothing to do with power. The landlord has the right to terminate Part IV for improvements.

oppenheimer1

godtabh wrote: »

Nothing to do with power. The landlord has the right to terminate Part IV for improvements.

Ah it has. I've had landlords be vindictive over things like this in the past. Big rent hikes, but when you want actual maintenance carried out in return, you become troublesome and asked to leave "for renovations".

godtabh

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Ah it has. I've had landlords be vindictive over things like this in the past. Big rent hikes, but when you want actual maintenance carried out in return, you become troublesome and asked to leave "for renovations".

You can dispute the rent hikes. That is your right.

The landlord has similar rights.

newacc2015

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Ah it has. I've had landlords be vindictive over things like this in the past. Big rent hikes, but when you want actual maintenance carried out in return, you become troublesome and asked to leave "for renovations".

If the rent hike was excessive. You had the right to go to the PRTB. Likewise the landlord is entitled to renovate his house if he wants to. How do you know the landlord isnt actually going to renovate the house? Half of Drumcondra and the NCR have been renovated in the last 2/3 years.

OP didnt say what her friend wanted.They may require the tenant to be evicted for the works to be carried out. There was a woman on this a few weeks ago, that didnt see anything wrong with asking her landlord for about €5k worth of renovations in a house she just moved into.

Speedwell

After being evicted for "improvements", is there any rule that improvements actually have to be made, or is it just an empty claim for lying landlords to use at their convenience? If I were to be evicted for improvements, and the landlord didn't make any, what is my recourse?

McGrath5

In fairness, if the relationship between the tenant and landlord is on a knife edge that when the tenant asks for some improvements to be carried out on the property and landlord chooses to end the lease, she is probably better of finding somewhere else to live.

Speedwell

McGrath5 wrote: »

In fairness, if the relationship between the tenant and landlord is on a knife edge that when the tenant asks for some improvements to be carried out on the property and landlord chooses to end the lease, she is probably better of finding somewhere else to live.

Very true, in a renters' market.

Claw Hammer

She can dispute the validity of the notice and bring a claim for breach of standards and string the process out. Improvements means substantial improvement not repairs.

Speedwell

I suppose that if I were threatened with an eviction for improvements, I would ask to see a plan of work and estimates from contractors, or at least invoices for materials, before I agreed to vacate.

JoeySully

If I was a landlord and you asked me for any of those I wouldn't even reply to the request.

Speedwell

JoeySully wrote: »

If I was a landlord and you asked me for any of those I wouldn't even reply to the request.

Then you wouldn't be able to prove your case that you were evicting me for improvements, would you. Sorry, chum, I was born at night, but it wasn't last night. If you want me to show good faith, you show me yours first.

Michael D Not Higgins

The landlord is obliged to give first refusal to the tenant following any substantial renovation works.

Michael D Not Higgins

Speedwell wrote: »

Then you wouldn't be able to prove your case that you were evicting me for improvements, would you. Sorry, chum, I was born at night, but it wasn't last night. If you want me to show good faith, you show me yours first.

The landlord is required by law in the written notice of termination:

"specifying the nature of the intended works"

This does not cover any estimates or detailed plan. A simple "we are doing x, y and z and it will require you to leave for a couple of months" is sufficient. If the flat becomes available for reletting then the tenant is obliged to be offered a tenancy again.

Speedwell

Speedwell wrote: »

I suppose that if I were threatened with an eviction for improvements, I would ask to see a plan of work and estimates from contractors, or at least invoices for materials, before I agreed to vacate.

Good luck with that, no LL would entertain such a request nor would be be obliged to. You dont have to agree to vacate, once you are served correct notice with a valid reason you have to vacate or else you will have to be removed.

godtabh

Speedwell wrote: »

Then you wouldn't be able to prove your case that you were evicting me for improvements, would you. Sorry, chum, I was born at night, but it wasn't last night. If you want me to show good faith, you show me yours first.

Engineering/architectural plans arent done in an instance and are only final once built.

oppenheimer1

newacc2015 wrote: »

If the rent hike was excessive. You had the right to go to the PRTB. Likewise the landlord is entitled to renovate his house if he wants to. How do you know the landlord isnt actually going to renovate the house? Half of Drumcondra and the NCR have been renovated in the last 2/3 years.

OP didnt say what her friend wanted.They may require the tenant to be evicted for the works to be carried out. There was a woman on this a few weeks ago, that didnt see anything wrong with asking her landlord for about €5k worth of renovations in a house she just moved into.

I know for a fact that the house wasn't renovated after we were made vacate it. Asking for new mattresses and repairs to faulty plumbing, heating and white goods are not excessive requests. Most of the things were annoying niggles, like the heating not coming on on the timer or the hot tap not working in the downstairs toilet or the washing machine not always unlocking the door.

In a letters market, it's easier and (in the short term)cheaper to show someone the door than fix small problems. That's what the OP's friend is finding out.

MarkAnthony

OP, firstly if possible I was just 'get out of dodge'. The LL is within their rights however I get the impression (as evidenced by the email your friend was copied in on) that there is more going on here.

As people have said above you can lodge a PRTB complaint, and I would frankly. If nothing else out of devilment.

Is the rent significantly lower/social welfare payments at play here?

JacquesSon

MarkAnthony wrote: »

As people have said above you can lodge a PRTB complaint, and I would frankly. If nothing else out of devilment.

I think it's appalling that you'd waste the PRTBs time lodging a malicious complaint against a LL.

MarkAnthony

JacquesSon wrote: »

I think it's appalling that you'd waste the PRTBs time lodging a malicious complaint against a LL.

We'll we certainly don't want a LL who is forcing someone out of their home because they had the gall to ask for some improvements taken to task now do we?

Next we'll have the orphan's in the workhouse asking for more gruel!

Nomis21

Why don't you agree with the Landlord just to leave the property while improvements are taking place?

I would not think any 'improvements' would take more than a month to complete.

Claw Hammer

Nomis21 wrote: »

Why don't you agree with the Landlord just to leave the property while improvements are taking place?

I would not think any 'improvements' would take more than a month to complete.

Once out there would be no going back. The o/p would have to find an alternative place to stay which could well involve getting into another lease. even if temporary accommodation was available the landlord could just string things out.
easiest thing to do is lodge a dispute.

Dubgal72

Hi everybody, thanks for all the replies. My friend is at work at the mo and won't be able to have a look here until later. I saw the whole email thread and there is definitely more at play.
1) the agent called the tenant 'a bit cheeky'
2) agent had given 28 days notice of rent hike, not 90 days acc to recent legislation. When this was pointed out, agent said to landlord "The government have implicated [implemented?] a 90 day notice now, I only found out the other day myself, its really got out of hand." This to me reads like 'how dare tenants get rights' :eek:
3) In the same - accidentally - copied email, agent was telling landlord what the agency could get for similar rented properties in the area i.e. encouraging landlord to drive current (artificial) rental market higher....
4) rent hikes can be whatever percentage landlord wants, apparently as long as it doesn't exceed 'market rent. There is an index of these for various areas somewhere. I get the feeling they are calculated from estate agents....

But the upshot would be that if asked to vacate, the landlord would have to give first refusal to her? I would imagine even if that happened, the estate agent will have persuaded the landlord to extract full 'market value'. And we all know how fair that 'value' is....

ooorla

If you were to take the LL up on the first refusal offer after the renovations were done, would it be at the current rent rate, or can it be put up again?

Wondering because the house I'm renting is in a similar position, having been asked to leave for major refurb the end of March (we are there 3 years). We had a rent increase last April, which should be good til April 2017, if we had continued the tenancy. Is it considered an outright end of contract and if we go back there again, can the LL put it up higher?

anothernight

Dubgal72 wrote: »

3) In the same - accidentally - copied email, agent was telling landlord what the agency could get for similar rented properties in the area i.e. encouraging landlord to drive current (artificial) rental market higher....

How dare a letting agent try to give the landlord a good return for his investment, within the bounds of the law! It's not like that's his job or anything!

MarkAnthony

anothernight wrote: »

How dare a letting agent try to give the landlord a good return for his investment, within the bounds of the law! It's not like that's his job or anything!

How is a threat on the back of a request for improvements (with more than a whiff of playing the system) within the bounds of the law?

Rights, indeed, go both ways. So do responsibilities. One of the responsibilities of a decent landlord and their agents is to deal in good faith. Now you're free to point to where you believe the agent/LL are acting in good faith and I appreciate we've only one side of the story, but taken at face value there are an awful lot of, seemingly, very naive people in this thread.

anothernight

MarkAnthony wrote: »

How is a threat on the back of a request for improvements (with more than a whiff of playing the system) within the bounds of the law?

Rights, indeed, go both ways. So do responsibilities. One of the responsibilities of a decent landlord and their agents is to deal in good faith. Now you're free to point to where you believe the agent/LL are acting in good faith and I appreciate we've only one side of the story, but taken at face value there are an awful lot of, seemingly, very naive people in this thread.

If that part of the email was "accidentally copied", as the OP says, it wasn't meant to be seen by his friend, which means that it's not part of a threat at all.

Note that I didn't comment on any of the other points, just the one about the going market rate. There's absolutely nothing wrong with a landlord renting out his property at the market rate. There's even less wrong with a letting agent showing the landlord was the market rate is. Indeed, that's part of his or her job.

Aye Bosun

Nomis21 wrote: »

Why don't you agree with the Landlord just to leave the property while improvements are taking place?

I would not think any 'improvements' would take more than a month to complete.

At the end of the day the landlord is within his legal rights to renovate the house and ask the tenant to leave. No one here knows if the landlord had plans to do this in the near future or not and is just being spitful.
Either way, it's still legal.
I would be putting in writing in accordance with the RTA that you want first refusal on the property when it goes back up on the market..that is your right as a tenant, as is ending the tenancy for the reasons he has stated his right.