Why do some men commit rape?

armaghlad

psinno wrote: »

Pretty sure he has successfully appealed his conviction and a retrial has been ordered.

That isn't a great example really since the details are shrouded in mystery. The investigators report for this case is available to the public so it is a better example.

http://www.businessinsider.com/occidental-sexual-assault-2014-9?IR=T

(I think this is the right link I read about it a few years ago)

The case in that link is mind-boggling.

mzungu

The Black Oil wrote: »

Let's take this as a given. To draw a comparison, we do have a "domestic violence culture" too? Or, is it just some men are terrible human beings and make individual choices to beat/abuse their partners?

The problem with abstract theories like that is that its tailor made to encompass everything bar the kitchen sink. Although maybe the kitchen sink fits in there too as a symbol of patriarchal oppression.

you put forward some thoughts/proposals on stopping and reducing rape - what do you think can be done here?

AFAIK the measures include consent classes for lads and for all non rapist males everywhere to police any manifestation of 'rape culture' whenever and wherever it arises.

orubiru

Of course what they don't think about is how to stop people from labelling things they personally don't like as "rape culture"?

Who decides on whether or not something gets classed as "contributing to rape culture" and how is that policed?

For example, Mary goes to the beach and sees a lot of the young ladies strutting around in bikinis while the lads all stop and stare. This makes Mary feel uncomfortable and inadequate. "Women strutting about the beach in tiny bikinis are encouraging the male gaze, which contributes to rape culture".

So, in Marys view, any man who stares and any woman who courts those stares is contributing to Rape Culture. Its a serious allegation in a way.

So, who decides if Mary has a point of if she's just bitter and jealous? Tumblr? Twitter? Internet Trolls? Jessica Valenti?

A song comes out called "Blurred Lines". It's massively popular. When it gets played at the club all the hot girls and all the hot guys start dancing together. A lonely snowflake sits in the corner thinking "this contributes to Rape Culture, shut it down".

Who decides if it's a valid point?

There are fundamental points that we can all agree on.

Rape happens.
Rape is a serious problem in our society.

When people talk about Rape Culture they are really looking for someone or something to blame. Even at that point it's a good thing to do, finding the root cause of the problem.

The problem is that they are so misguided. They are pointing at pop songs and television adverts and roaring "this perpetuates rape culture". Meanwhile truly bad people, who do not give a hoot about pop music or modern advertising techniques, are committing terrible crimes.

Even if you just look at consent. Maybe some guys do commit sexual assault or rape because they are not sufficiently educated, have an inappropriate sense of entitlement, or just completely lack empathy. Maybe they just don't understand "consent". It's a terrible situation, I think we can all agree.

How do you fix that though? By banning pop songs? By removing busty ladies from video games? By outlawing Pick Up Artists?

I suppose there is an argument you could make that all of the bad things that blight a society are in fact bred and perpetuated by that society. So you could argue that society itself is the problem. Who raises the rapists?

What's the solution though? Burn it all down? Cut out the bad parts? How do you decide what gets to stay in and what has to go.

If you want to propose that something "contributes to Rape Culture" then surely you have to demonstrate this?

Am I saying or thinking anything unreasonable here?

To get back to the disease analogy. If I proposed that Apples are the cause of Disease A then I would be expected to prove it. If I suggested that eating raw onions is the cure for Disease B then I would be expected to prove it.

So why does someone saying "rape jokes and online trolls and adverts objectifying a womans body are part of Rape Culture" expect to just get a free pass?

One eyed Jack

orubiru wrote: »

So why does someone saying "rape jokes and online trolls and adverts objectifying a womans body are part of Rape Culture" expect to just get a free pass?

Because advocates of this nonsense are banking on appealing to people's revulsion of the act of rape, and anyone who doesn't buy into the idea of "rape culture" must then see rape as acceptable, which means they're contributing to this "rape culture". It's an effort to sanitise society, which gives some people their purpose in life. It does nothing to address the causes nor the consequences of rape, but it grabs people's attention all the same, and it makes those people who think they know what it is, feel superior to those who haven't a fcuking clue what they're on about.

The term is actually so vague that rather than identifying a systemic issue, the idea itself is a systematic failure. The idea gives it's proponents another excuse to claim they are being oppressed when they are asked to explain what the idea means to them, and what purpose does it serve. It actually demonstrably has the opposite effect of it's purported intended aim, but that doesn't appear to bother it's proponents.

WinnyThePoo

Seeing as Catari Jaguar quoted me or should I say misquoted me and everyone in that post this morning.

I'd add something to the convo.

Before you ventured onto this forum and told us we couldn't have issues because we are men.

You posted this on the 'I need feminism' thread in the ladies lounge

*SNIP*

You say your not anti-men. Why did you come onto a thread dedicated to mens issues and tell us we shouldn't have any. Tells us we are whiners and the thread was created to point score.

Even the site you reference is top notch drivel.

http://itspronouncedmetrosexual.com/2012/12/reasons-people-believe-feminism-hates-men/

I mean look at the 30 examples of Male Privilege

http://itspronouncedmetrosexual.com/2012/11/30-examples-of-male-privilege/

Here is a few

2.You can be careless with your money and not have people blame it on your sex -
11. Go on a date with a stranger without the fear of being raped
12. Dress how you want and not worry it will be used as a defense if you are raped
20. You can seek political office without fear of your relationship with your children, or who you hire to take care of them, being scrutinized by the press
23. You can ask for the “person in charge” and will likely be greeted by a member of your sex
28. You are not pressured by peers and society to be thin as much as the opposite sex
31. You can go to a car dealership or mechanic and assume you’ll get a fair deal and not be taken advantage of

Seriously. Is this guy for real.

You have also said you think Louise O'Neill is a good journalist, but considering her behaviour and media output with UCD ag case and her hilariously defiant response when there was no case to answer. I mean she even 'ironically' on her twitter account calls herself a misandrist.

The thing is If i was in UCD AG...I would say she is.

Wibbs

WinnyThePoo, NO quoted user posts from another forum on Boards. It's against the charter and no more of that from anyone please. Make your point without dragging previous posts from other forums into things. Link deleted.

WinnyThePoo

Sorry Wibbs. Didn't know. Now I do.

Pat Mustard

armaghlad wrote: »

Controversial question here... don't bite my head off... but is rape a black and white issue? Are there grey areas? I'm thinking of the Sheffield Utd footballer when I ask this, who's name escapes me; as apparently he is appealing his rape conviction having maintained innocence throughout his trial and subsequent incarceration. If successful, is he still a rapist?

Edit: Ched Evans is the name

The crime of rape is well defined, so that is not a grey area. The law on rape is not a grey area.

There may be a conflict on the evidence given by the parties, however. The accused may claim that sex was consensual. It could be that all of the facts may not be clear, during a rape trial.

Wibbs

Pat Mustard wrote: »

The crime of rape is well defined, so that is not a grey area. The law on rape is not a grey area.

There may be a conflict on the evidence given by the parties, however. The accused may claim that sex was consensual. It could be that all of the facts may not be clear, during a rape trial.

That's one of the near unique problems with this dealing with this bloody awful crime. It usually has only two witnesses and one is the accuser and one the accused.

tritium

Wibbs wrote: »

That's one of the near unique problems with this dealing with this bloody awful crime. It usually has only two witnesses and one is the accuser and one the accused.

Very true, not to mention its one of the very few crimes where two people involved may hold a very different view of events that would differ dramatically in legal interpretation . The "guilty mind" element of the offence in environments where consent may not necessarily be expected to be a formal step inevitably provides a huge scope for grey areas, albeit one that is oerhaos required in a fair legal system

holyhead

Human beings are genetically driven to seek sexual interaction. Some men rape for sex, some for power, some hate women and all disrespect women.
We live in an ever increasing sexualized world. Sex is omni present. Look at any women's magazine cover and invariably the word sex will appear. Look at any men's magazine and you will see scantily clad women.
I think porn helps some men to dehumanise a woman. To see her only in a sexual light. Women themselves can dress to pull a man i.e. dress in a sexual provocative fashion. Does that excuse or justify rape absolutely not.
In a lot of rape cases particularly rape indoors alcohol plays a large part. The woman gets drunk to such an extent that her guard is down. She may find herself drawn in to an encounter that goes beyond what she wanted. She may be attacked because she is vulnerable due to alcohol.
In a rape situation the man is wrong . The best a woman can do is to minimise their chance of being in a vulnerable situation.

Lemming

holyhead wrote: »

In a lot of rape cases particularly rape indoors alcohol plays a large part. The woman gets drunk to such an extent that her guard is down. She may find herself drawn in to an encounter that goes beyond what she wanted. She may be attacked because she is vulnerable due to alcohol.

In a rape situation the man is wrong . The best a woman can do is to minimise their chance of being in a vulnerable situation.

It's interesting that you should say the above; because you seem to attach significance to rape as being the product of alcohol consumption. Most rapes are not carried out at US frat parties by drunken male students, but by people well known to the victim, such as a relative, friend, spouse, or family member. This US-campus feminism narrative (which if you'll pardon me is where I assume that you are taking this narrative from) really needs to have its bubble popped because it does a disservice to society.

The second things to note is your statement that in rape the man is wrong. I would ask what happens when it's the woman carrying out the rape, but as I'm sure you know, a woman cannot be legally prosecuted for raping a man in Ireland or the UK. I would go so far as to say that the law does not recognise the crime. Even a woman that has sex with a minor (which has happened fairly frequently here with female teachers in England if the newspapers are anything to go by) are treated with exceptional leniency, and not as the sexual predators of children that they are, even when repeat offenders.

Edit: with regards ZeitgiestGlee's fair point in post #415, I'll just add that I'm not trying to wail on you or anything HolyHead, it's more just the choice of phrasing that I find curious. Perhaps not intentional on your part, but nonetheless it makes one ponder perceptions.

ZeitgeistGlee

holyhead wrote: »

I think porn helps men to dehumanise a woman.

I disagree with this tbh, while there are genres of porn for which degradation is the intent (for both genders), it's always struck me as similar to the "violent videogames cause violence": an easy soundbite argument lacking in actual supportive research/documentation.

Given that the majority of adults consume pornography and the vast majority do so without becoming sexual predators I think it's a non-argument for a root-cause, but perhaps there are those who are triggered by it.

ZeitgeistGlee

Lemming wrote: »

The second things to note is your statement that in rape the man is wrong. I would ask what happens when it's the woman carrying out the rape, but as I'm sure you know, a woman cannot be legally prosecuted for raping a man in Ireland or the UK. I would go so far as to say that the law does not recognise the crime. Even a woman that has sex with a minor (which has happened fairly frequently here with female teachers in England if the newspapers are anything to go by) are treated with exceptional leniency, and not as the sexual predators of children that they are, even when repeat offenders.

Not to veer into whataboutery but given it's Holyhead's first post in the thread I imagine they're attempting to answer the OP's question about why some men commit rape rather than some people.

Lemming

ZeitgeistGlee wrote: »

Not to veer into whataboutery but given it's Holyhead's first post in the thread I imagine they're attempting to answer the OP's question about why some men commit rape rather than some people.

Fair and rather valid point.

unseenfootage

Lemming wrote: »

The second things to note is your statement that in rape the man is wrong. I would ask what happens when it's the woman carrying out the rape, but as I'm sure you know, a woman cannot be legally prosecuted for raping a man in Ireland or the UK.

There was a case recently of a woman who committed a sex crime against another woman and she got convicted. She tricked her victim by pretending that she was a man. Blind folded her during act to mask her true sexuality.

Lemming

unseenfootage wrote: »

There was a case recently of a woman who committed a sex crime against another woman and she got convicted. She tricked her victim by pretending that she was a man. Blind folded her during act to mask her true sexuality.

Yes I recall; an extrordinarily bizarre case, but not even remotely comparible to what I mentioned. I seem fuzzy on the matter, but was the woman in question convicted of rape, or a lesser charge?

ZeitgeistGlee

Lemming wrote: »

Fair and rather valid point.

Don't get my wrong Lemming, I don't disagree with anything you said regarding how female sexual predators are whitewashed generally by society. It's especially worrisome given how many of their victims are boys under their care as a trusted authority figure, but the potential psychological impact is brushed off as "Sure they wanted it anyway" (imagine the furore if the genders were reversed and that statement was used). With that said it's probably a topic for another thread.

unseenfootage wrote: »

There was a case recently of a woman who committed a sex crime against another woman and she got convicted. She tricked her victim by pretending that she was a man. Blind folded her during act to mask her true sexuality.

I remember that, wasn't a big part of the conviction the fact that there was a non-consensual penetrative aspect which brought the legal definition of rape into play rather than sexual assault?

mzungu

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The term is actually so vague that rather than identifying a systemic issue, the idea itself is a systematic failure. The idea gives it's proponents another excuse to claim they are being oppressed when they are asked to explain what the idea means to them, and what purpose does it serve. It actually demonstrably has the opposite effect of it's purported intended aim, but that doesn't appear to bother it's proponents.

The ironic thing about this is, those supporting the idea of 'rape culture' are belittling actual rape. In order to make sure everyone can claim a slice of victimhood, trivial matters like clothing and woeful pop songs are now shoehorned in under the banner. That is demeaning to people who have been raped.

Carlos Orange

unseenfootage wrote: »

There was a case recently of a woman who committed a sex crime against another woman and she got convicted. She tricked her victim by pretending that she was a man. Blind folded her during act to mask her true sexuality.

She was convicted of sexual assault not rape.

Women can be convicted of rape only when they act as an accomplice to a man (in English law).

ZeitgeistGlee

mzungu wrote: »

The ironic thing about this is, those supporting the idea of 'rape culture' are belittling actual rape. In order to make sure everyone can claim a slice of victimhood, trivial matters like clothing and woeful pop songs are now shoehorned in under the banner. That is demeaning to people who have been raped.

I think it's even more cynical and manipulative than that, by creating a sense of permanent victimhood whereby everyone is the victim of this terrible, awful crime via nebulous definitions it makes those who buy into the Kool-Aid easier to manipulate into buying into tangential ideologies which only empower the puppeteers from the background ("Support my Patreon please"). To tell actual victims of rape they're on the same level as someone who gets cat-called in the street or has to listen to a "triggering" song on the radio is frankly pretty disgusting. For all their talk of "appropriation" being evil, it's a textbook example of appropriation.

eviltwin

ZeitgeistGlee wrote: »

I think it's even more cynical and manipulative than that, by creating a sense of permanent victimhood whereby everyone is the victim of this terrible, awful crime via nebulous definitions it makes those who buy into the Kool-Aid easier to manipulate into buying into tangential ideologies which only empower the puppeteers from the background ("Support my Patreon please"). To tell actual victims of rape they're on the same level as someone who gets cat-called in the street or has to listen to a "triggering" song on the radio is frankly pretty disgusting. For all their talk of "appropriation" being evil, it's a textbook example of appropriation.

No one is suggesting a cat call is on the same level as rape are they or did I miss that?

tritium

eviltwin wrote: »

No one is suggesting a cat call is on the same level as rape are they or did I miss that?

Tbh, in the case of certain contributors I'm not actually sure what they're suggesting beyond " men are bad, I'm always right, I treasure men (in spite of their collective guilt), patriarchy, patriarchy, patriarchy...."

Guess thats the standard MO to let them run around to their friends/ other sites/ other forums and crow about how wrong the menz are and how you showed them all. Anywhere else you'd be shown the door quick sharp, though I'm glad the mods on here don't easily give an excuse for people to be whining over oppression when called on their nonsense

eviltwin

tritium wrote: »

Tbh, in the case of certain contributors I'm not actually sure what they're suggesting beyond " men are bad, I'm always right, I treasure men (in spite of their collective guilt), patriarchy, patriarchy, patriarchy...."

Guess thats the standard MO to let you run around to your friends/ other sites/ other forums and crow about how wrong the menz are and how you showed them all. Anywhere else you'd be shown the door quick sharp, though I'm glad the mods on here don't easily give an excuse for people to be whining over oppression when called on their nonsense

Maybe if everyone stopped being so defensive there might actually be some decent debate. This forum has become a joke in recent months, one or two good posters with a fairly coherent argument are lost in the sarcasm, hyperbole and childish tit for tat. Posters of both sexes btw.

tritium

eviltwin wrote: »

Maybe if everyone stopped being so defensive there might actually be some decent debate. This forum has become a joke in recent months, one or two good posters with a fairly coherent argument are lost in the sarcasm, hyperbole and childish tit for tat. Posters of both sexes btw.

The defensive bit is fair point (post wasnt a dig at you BTW, on rereading the use of 'you' in paragraph 2 may read as if it was).

Not sure I'd agree about the quality if the forum though, I think there's been a lot of good debate. Unfortunately like most forums there are a handful of posters who are really only here to make noise. I'm guessing it probably doesn't help either that given the nature of this and a handful of other forums you're likely to get a greater than average number of idealogues (both sides), saboteurs and folks with an axe to grind

Wibbs

It comes along with the nature of this imported "gender war" BS Eviltwin. It sprouts ideologues like weeds and weaponises BS and hyperbole. And yes, on both sides and neither side seem to have the basic self awareness to see it. Worse, it infects the moderates, the middle ground too.

We see this with feminism, but the manosphere is just as fevered, if not moreso coming from a more recent, more reactive state. Mainly because much of it from what I can see has sprung and sprung quite rapidly compared to feminism from a general - again US origin - dissatisfaction among younger men which gave rise to things like PUA, MGTOW etc, which morphed into actual albeit small movements of a more reactionary right wing nature that gathered all that went before under their umbrella. the ROK crowd an example of that.

The main difference is one ideology, even in extremis, is far more seen as acceptable, indeed even promoted in general discourse. EG the whole "men shouldn't let other men rape/if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem" nebulous nonsense that paints an entire gender in a bad light, while still having the brass neck to claim egalitarianism. And all that serves to do is dig heels in with people who might otherwise come to agreement with a position.

FishOnABike

The Black Oil wrote: »

Let's take this as a given. To draw a comparison, we do have a "domestic violence culture" too? Or, is it just some men people are terrible human beings and make individual choices to beat/abuse their partners?

Fixed that for you. Domestic violence does not discriminate.

mzungu

eviltwin wrote: »

No one is suggesting a cat call is on the same level as rape are they or did I miss that?

It's seen as part of our societies 'rape culture' that helps to enable the act itself. Indeed any kind of objectification comes under the banner (Shirtgate etc).

Catari Jaguar

mzungu wrote: »

The ironic thing about this is, those supporting the idea of 'rape culture' are belittling actual rape. In order to make sure everyone can claim a slice of victimhood, trivial matters like clothing and woeful pop songs are now shoehorned in under the banner. That is demeaning to people who have been raped.

You really believe youre right and that is frightening.

I think the handful posting here denying rape culture really highlight that they 1. Don't know what it is and 2. Are resistance to any change to society (which is at the core of MRA)

Please enlighten me as to how dehumanizing women in the forms of sexualised and degrading lyrics/ music videos, violent video games, PUA, rape jokes/ meme, locker room culture/ lad banter denegrading women/gays benenfits society? Instead of asking women to PROVE there's rape culture can you disprove it? Is it necessary for the above to be prevalent in society? Why CAN'T you call out a lad and say "stfu, that's not funny." Why CAN'T men be asked not to rape in the same way theyre taught not to steal/ murder etc.?

If we all thought that way then racist speak would still be ok. Nowadays some media that was normal and even comical (supposedly) back in the day is shocking to us. Did that infringe on your rights? Has it impacted on your life? It certainly impacted on the way people it AFFECTED. In the same way that rape culture affects girls and teaches them they're lesser or a piece of meat or their bodies are part of the public domain, to be commented on and leered at.

How many times is the Diet Coke ad used as an example of sexism against men and complained about here? That ad wasn't created by women btw, they don't control the media.

Why is it acceptable to tell girls how to dress to avoid "asking for it" (US school dress codes) but not say "hang on, boys can behave civilly, they're not animals, they can repect girls bodies and do their studies in a room with bare shoulders/ knees on show." Dress codes teach girls that THEY are to blame for impinging on boys, ruining their studies, existing in the world with their breasts, and at the same time it let's males off the hook with a very clear message; "you couldn't resist, it's her fault."

There's no men's right to not be tarred with a brush. Sorry it's true. Yes, women commit sex crimes too, but it's 1% of cases. Yes a minority are malicious and cry rape. Yes, men get sexuually assaulted too (1 in 6) yet has there been a "prove it" mentioned here or is that reserved for females? It's thrown around that women fake claims. Is that responded to with ,"prove it?" as well?

Legal systems are designed to protect victims not attackers, like any crime. Start assuming men aren't capable of rape and that she's prob a lying vindictive bitch or asking for it drunk slut wirh regrets is stacking the odds in favour of the rapist. Rape victims are statistically likely not to have their assailant prosecuted. Does a not guilty verdict mean it didn't happen? If convictions represented rapes then I guess rape is a miniscule problem.

How about the Kerry case? He was found guilty and she was dragged through the mud and her life destroyed, people shook his hand. Rape culture is talking about how she was to blame and doubting he ever could be.

You know what's worse than being accused of rape? ACTUALLY BEING RAPED.
Look how Dylan Farrow is treated and her sexually abusive Woody Allen is living it up in Cannes. No one even believes her and celebrities still work with him.

Read the wallet theft analogy of rape victim blaming if you get a chance.

As for "how can I avoid being raped?" That comment was flippant and blasé. It's how I read it, it's how I responded. But the thing is men AREN'T TOLD how to dress, where to go, not to sleep around, not to do xyz. THAT is rape culture. As a man do you have a day to day fear that you'll be raped and have to keep your guard up? Do you worry that if you are raped you'll be victim blamed and asked what you were wearing and how much you drank?

This thread is loaded with certain posters crying classic MRA derailing strategies like "Women rape too!!!" (seen in the first response) and shutting down a conversation (or derailing a thread) with "not all men". Nothing beneficial can come that. Dangerous territory in here, and this forum in general. I hope to god it's only the attitude of a misguided few.

Carlos Orange

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

Why CAN'T men be asked not to rape in the same way theyre taught not to steal/ murder etc.?

I think I must have been out sick the day someone taught all the other men not to steal and murder.

Catari Jaguar

psinno wrote: »

I think I must have been out sick the day someone taught all the other men not to steal and murder.

That's what you took from that? Jesus christ you lot really only see what you like and are determined to undermine.

It's a ****ing COMMANDMENT to begin with as well as being taught from infancy - don't take things that aren't yours, don't fight.

Teach kids to treat girls equally? Teach them that some language is unacceptable, don't teach them or imply that girls interests/ toys are inferior, teach them not to ping bra straps or insult them/ be mean "because they like them", don't teach them that girl bodies distract them from study, don't model sexist manner in front of them e.g. the "jokes"

All of the above is the mythical rape culture. I don't see how that could ever contribute to dehumanizing women, invading their space, disrespecting their boundaries, and eventually some taking it too far? Hmm...

silverharp

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

You really believe youre right and that is frightening.

I think the handful posting here denying rape culture really highlight that they 1. Don't know what it is and 2. Are resistance to any change to society (which is at the core of MRA)

Please enlighten me as to how dehumanizing women in the forms of sexualised and degrading lyrics/ music videos, violent video games, PUA, rape jokes/ meme, locker room culture/ lad banter denegrading women/gays benenfits society? Instead of asking women to PROVE there's rape culture can you disprove it? Is it necessary for the above to be prevalent in society? Why CAN'T you call out a lad and say "stfu, that's not funny." Why CAN'T men be asked not to rape in the same way theyre taught not to steal/ murder etc.?

I'd be familiar with type of discussion from the Atheist forum :pac: if someone introduces a concept its up to them to demonstrate its true/real not the other way around. the default position is that "rape culture" is up there with Russell's flying teapot
we seem to be in a situation where if something is repeated often enough that it has some validity . I have some skin in the game here as I have a son heading for his teenager years. I don't want him to go through a school or college system that views his gender as toxic or being a hair trigger away from psychopathic behaviour.

Lemming

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

Teach kids to treat girls equally? Teach them that some language is unacceptable, don't teach them or imply that girls interests/ toys are inferior, teach them not to ping bra straps or insult them/ be mean "because they like them", don't teach them that girl bodies distract them from study, don't model sexist manner in front of them e.g. the "jokes"

What you are suggesting, quite ironically, is sexualising children. If you ever watch children playing, little Tommy doesn't see little Jane as really being any different other than the fact that she is not a he. Nor that little Johnny is black. To kids, other kids just happen to be kids but 'xyz'. It is adults that foister differences onto the minds of children. It is adults that foister bigotry, hatred, intolerance, and the notion that one kid can't play with the others because "they're different".

Edit: I missed an absolute gem in the above quote:

don't teach them that girl bodies distract them from study

DA. FUQ?!!!!!!!!

Hmmm, "Diet Coke break" anyone?

Wibbs

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

You really believe youre right and that is frightening.

An accusation that could easily be levelled closer to home. Medice cura the ipsum could well be at play here..

I think the handful posting here denying rape culture really highlight that they 1. Don't know what it is and 2. Are resistance to any change to society (which is at the core of MRA)

1) because it is so nebulous a concept that vacuums in so many disparate and often unconnected strands of debate and labels it as a moral panic. 2) I see near zero evidence of this. Speaking for myself I'm certainly not an MRA, just as I'm not a feminist anymore. I am, or have increasingly become an ABSA, Anti BS Activist and I have plenty to be activist about regarding both movements.

Instead of asking women to PROVE there's rape culture can you disprove it?

I know this comes as a shock to some, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs. Stating a western nation like Ireland is a "rape culture" is one such extraordinary claim. As is the 1 in 4 statistic, as are the claims that Irish universities have rape stats that would shame war zones. But as we saw with the recent UCD non story, even when shown to be a non story it is still held up as an example of "rape culture". "20 people were robbed in UCD classes last week!!!. Oh no!!. Oh wait they weren't. No change to robbery stats at all. Doesn't matter, UCD is still a hotbed of robbery!!! Oh no!!".

Why CAN'T men be asked not to rape in the same way theyre taught not to steal/ murder etc.?

They. Already. Are. Again this may come as a shock to some. Hell, even among the criminal class, rapists and child molestors have to be segregated in prisons or they risk being killed by the other men. Am I as a man also responsible for thefts and murders too? That you can't see this as incredibly insulting towards an entire gender says much about how strong your ideology runs and yes how sexist an individual you come across as. See further evidence below.

How many times is the Diet Coke ad used as an example of sexism against men and complained about here? That ad wasn't created by women btw, they don't control the media.

For starters, have an oul perusal at the fashion mags and the celeb gossip mags, pushing usually heavily photoshopped and primped body image to the fore. Check out the overall gender mix of the editors and writers and consumers of same. Men? That would be a no. Indeed if we look at an area like porn, overwhelmingly produced by and for men, we see far less agism and weightism that we see in the average issue of Vogue. How screwed up is that? So why CAN'T women be asked not to demean other women every week on the newsstands!!!? Oh wait, that would be a stupid conclusion to make.

Why is it acceptable to tell girls how to dress to avoid "asking for it" (US school dress codes) but not say "hang on, boys can behave civilly, they're not animals, they can disrepect girls and do their studies in a room with bare shoulders/ knees on show. Dress codes teach girls that THEY are to blame for impinging on boys, ruining their studies, existing in the world with breasts, and at the same time it let's males off the hook with a very clear message.

Gone a bit too far off reservation for me there I'm afraid.

There's no men's right to not be tarred with a brush. Sorry it's true.

annnnnnnd there we have it folks, writ large in pixels. A full public admission of applying something to an entire gender. A something that is repellent with it. Sorry, you are behaving in an incredibly sexist manner and worse your ideology is so dug in you are blissfully unaware of it.

Men get sexuually assaulted too (1 in 6) yet has there been a "prove it" mentioned here?

Well I for one would want to read those stats and if they're anything like the Koss 1 in 4 then yes I would take issue with them. And the rule and appliance of law would still be in effect for me.

Legal systems are designed to protect victims not attackers, like any crime.

I know you might like that to be the case in this crime anyway, but it shows your ignorance of the law. You are aware of "innocent until proven guilty"? I hope, though considering some of the above, I'm not so sure, not when it comes to Men(™) anyway. He must be guilt eh? He is a man after all. They're all potentially the same.

How about the Kerry case? He was find guilty and she was dragged through the mud and her life destroyed, people shook his hand. Rape culture is talking about how she was to blame and doubting he ever could be.

And witness the local, national and worldwide condemnation of those morons who shook his hand and the follow on overwhelming support for the woman who was raped and then wronged in court. You seem to have missed that bit. Doesn't quite suit your narrative does it?

shutting down a conversation (or derailing a thread) with "not all men".

Well, contrary to what you have clearly stated as a belief that we as men need to be "tarred with the same brush", not all men are rapists, not all men have the potential to rape and the percentage of rapists is a tiny one in the population. Are all men potential murderers, thieves, criminals too? What sort of insane world do you think you inhabit?

Oh sorry, silly me, I forgot to take my own advice and remember the mantra; "women are always the victims, men are always the victimisers".

And you honestly wonder why increasingly feminism smells of BS to more and more people? And not just men BTW. Plenty of women who would self describe as feminists are getting uncomfortable and ticked off with the ideologues hijacking the movement.

ancapailldorcha

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

I think the handful posting here denying rape culture really highlight that they 1. Don't know what it is and 2. Are resistance to any change to society (which is at the core of MRA)

Personally, I'm resistant to changes which suggest that I'm a potential rapist.

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

Please enlighten me as to how dehumanizing women in the forms of sexualised and degrading lyrics/ music videos, violent video games, PUA, rape jokes/ meme, locker room culture/ lad banter denegrading women/gays benenfits society? Instead of asking women to PROVE there's rape culture can you disprove it? Is it necessary for the above to be prevalent in society? Why CAN'T you call out a lad and say "stfu, that's not funny." Why CAN'T men be asked not to rape in the same way theyre taught not to steal/ murder etc.?

How many times is the Diet Coke ad used as an example of sexism against men and complained about here? That ad wasn't created by women btw, they don't control the media.

So why do women buy these silly magazines and products then? Are you also saying that no women work in the media? Several publications have female editors and columnists. Frankly, I find it insulting that you seem to think that a quick session on GTA is enough to turn us into an army of rapists. I don't care to have my entertainment options dictated to me by anyone. I'll conclude that you need to realise than banning does not equate to eradication.

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

Why is it acceptable to tell girls how to dress to avoid "asking for it" (US school dress codes) but not say "hang on, boys can behave civilly, they're not animals, they can repect girls bodies and do their studies in a room with bare shoulders/ knees on show." Dress codes teach girls that THEY are to blame for impinging on boys, ruining their studies, existing in the world with their breasts, and at the same time it let's males off the hook with a very clear message; "you couldn't resist, it's her fault."

I don't think telling anyone how to dress is acceptable funnily enough.

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

There's no men's right to not be tarred with a brush. Sorry it's true. Yes, women commit sex crimes too, but it's 1% of cases. Yes a minority are malicious and cry rape. Yes, men get sexuually assaulted too (1 in 6) yet has there been a "prove it" mentioned here or is that reserved for females? It's thrown around that women fake claims. Is that responded to with ,"prove it?" as well?

It's often claimed, fairly IMO, that rape victims are reluctant to come forward. That would naturally apply to men there so the figures might not be accurate. You'll find that a lot of posters here do provide links to substantiate their claims.

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

Legal systems are designed to protect victims not attackers, like any crime. Start assuming men aren't capable of rape and that she's prob a lying vindictive bitch or asking for it drunk slut wirh regrets is stacking the odds in favour of the rapist. Rape victims are statistically likely not to have their assailant prosecuted. Does a not guilty verdict mean it didn't happen? If convictions represented rapes then I guess rape is a miniscule problem.

Who here has said this? I believe in "Innocent until proven guilty". The system is heavily flawed and needs overhaul in many, many areas. This is one of them.

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

How about the Kerry case? He was found guilty and she was dragged through the mud and her life destroyed, people shook his hand. Rape culture is talking about how she was to blame and doubting he ever could be.

This doesn't prove the existence of a worldwide rape culture. In Kerry, perhaps but you can't tar the world with the same brush as Listowel. I'm not defending what happened to this poor girl just in case you'd like to infer that.

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

This thread is loaded with certain posters crying classic MRA derailing strategies like "Women rape too!!!" (seen in the first response) and shutting down a conversation (or derailing a thread) with "not all men". Nothing beneficial can come that. Dangerous territory in here, and this forum in general. I hope to god it's only the attitude of a misguided few.

Funny how there is overlap between a men's forum and the idea that men deserve legal rights and protections.

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

That's what you took from that? Jesus christ you lot really only see what you like and are determined to undermine.

It's a ****ing COMMANDMENT to begin with as well as being taught from infancy - don't take things that aren't yours, don't fight.

Teach kids to treat girls equally? Teach them that some language is unacceptable, don't teach them or imply that girls interests/ toys are inferior, teach them not to ping bra straps or insult them/ be mean "because they like them", don't teach them that girl bodies distract them from study, don't model sexist manner in front of them e.g. the "jokes"

All of the above is the mythical rape culture. I don't see how that could ever contribute to dehumanizing women, invading their space, disrespecting their boundaries, and eventually some taking it too far? Hmm...

Should we not teach everyone about egalitarianism instead? About treating EVERYONE equally instead of the left's favourite groups?

ZeitgeistGlee

eviltwin wrote: »

No one is suggesting a cat call is on the same level as rape are they or did I miss that?

Ah, sorry, should've been clearer.

I was referring to (my perception) of the militant proponents of Rape Culture as an ideology over in the US (and to a lesser extent UK) and certain areas online. It's tied into the perpetual state of victimhood which disempowers so many young women/people through fear while creating demagogues out of the leaders who benefit financially (my the reference to Patreon support).

When Rape Culture is defined so (intentionally) nebulously, any act can be used to justify its existence and therefore reinforce the fear of the omnipresent danger of rape to young women. Someone cat-calling isn't just (generally) some juvenile eejit/s but now a legitimate threat of sexual predation. Something as simple as "Have a nice day" is perceptually reconditioned from a throwaway pleasantry into harassment.

After a while then, it creates (IMO) a weird sort of group-think/herd-mentality whereby any aspect of rape culture becomes as bad as any other part up to and including rape itself and experiences are echoed within the group for support and accolade (tumblr is pretty awful for this). Discussion of actual methods to prevent or reduce sex-crimes are drowned out by ideologically pleasant memes like "Rape Culture", "Patriarchy", "Mansplaining", "Rape-apology" and "#AllMen". Focus/Responsibility is shifted away from the vile individual who commits rape to a collective guilt for the male gender.

The end result is lots and lots of irrational fear, a breakdown of discussion because issues become gendered and therefore a perception of "them" vs "us" develops which creates acrimony on both sides (and within both genders when some disagree with "their side"). Enhancing the presence of the ideology and the status of the demagogues becomes more important than actually fighting sexual predation through education or judicial sanction.

I have a young cousins (of both genders) who will be going to in the next few years and the idea they could buy into this Kool-Aid and be damaged emotionally/psychologically is quite worrisome.

That isn't to say there's aren't demagogues on the male side doing the same kind of ****e but IMO it's nowhere near as mainstream (yet?).

(Did that makes sense/cover what you were asking eviltwin?)

[Edit] D'oh, had a brainfart and forgot to use the word activism/activists at some stage in there, so fill in where appropriate.

Catari Jaguar

silverharp wrote: »

I have some skin in the game here as I have a son heading for his teenager years. I don't want him to go through a school or college system that views his gender as toxic or being a hair trigger away from psychopathic behaviour.

I'm sure your son is lovely, but do you honestly see no harm in messages out there aimed at lads? Have you read Steubenville, college rape articles, politicians degrading women and trivilialising rape victims? How do you imagine people with teenage daughters might feel? Do you have a daughter? Have you read the south Dublin gang rape houseparty article that's in trial?

Do you think that being self aware of how you might make others feel and modifying that behavoiour is more harmful than a person not feeling safe?

If you're walking home at night behind me and I am afraid of you, am I the one in the wrong, or is my fear stemmed from something? Should I surpress my fear so as not to make you feel "notallmen" and deny my instincts? And let's say you are an attacker? What then?

Reading this thread and a couple of others in here I am starting to see a lot of hate, bile, asshmptions posted as fact that makes me think is toxic hair trigger away from psychopathic behaviour... not doing yourselves or supposed MRA any good.

ancapailldorcha

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

I'm sure your son is lovely, but do you honestly see no harm in messages out there aimed at lads? Have you read Steubenville, college rape articles, politicians degrading women and trivilialising rape victims? How do you imagine people with teenage daughters might feel? Do you have a daughter? Have you read the south Dublin gang rape houseparty article that's in trial?

And we're responsible for that because.....

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

If you're walking home at night behind me and I am afraid of you, am I the one in the wrong, or is my fear stemmed from something? Should I surpress my fear so as not to make you feel "notallmen" and dent my instincts? And let's say you are an attacker? What then?

If I had the same feelings about someone from Africa, that'd quite rightfully be called racism. If you see a man as a potential rapist then that's quite sexist and bigoted to be frank.

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

Reading this thread and a couple of others in here I am starting to see a lot of hate, bile, asshmptions posted as fact that makes me think is toxic hair trigger away from psychopathic behaviour... not doing yourselves or supposed MRA any good.

ie, dissent from the standard feminist narrative.

silverharp

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

don't teach them or imply that girls interests/ toys are inferior

can you break this down a bit? who says anything about inferior? from my experience its clear that boys and girls have different interest in toys and there is science to back this up. Also even playing along boys get shamed a lot for their interests, its almost part of the cultural narratives that boys that want to be neck deep in electronics or play chess are "nerds" and "gamers" come in for a lot of abuse as well

Pat Mustard

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

I think the handful posting here denying rape culture really highlight that they 1. Don't know what it is and 2. Are resistance to any change to society (which is at the core of MRA)

Looking for evidence is not being unreasonable. Quite the opposite, it is the reasonable thing to do. You cannot just expect people to accept that individual instances of rape coupled with online trolling and other behaviour amounts to rape culture. You haven't quoted any comparative statistics about rape between Ireland and any other country, nor have you quoted any statistics that say that rape is on the rise. Until proved otherwise, people have no reason to believe that "rape culture" is anything but a phrase without the facts to establish its legitimacy.

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

Instead of asking women to PROVE there's rape culture can you disprove it?

This is the classic Argumentum ad Ignorantiam logical fallacy. I think that we should just leave that there.

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

Legal systems are designed to protect victims not attackers, like any crime. Start assuming men aren't capable of rape and that she's prob a lying vindictive bitch or asking for it drunk slut wirh regrets is stacking the odds in favour of the rapist. Rape victims are statistically likely not to have their assailant prosecuted. Does a not guilty verdict mean it didn't happen? If convictions represented rapes then I guess rape is a miniscule problem.

If you ask a criminal lawyer, the answer will be that the rights of the accused are paramount within a criminal trial. There is a presumption of innocence. That's the way that the legal system works in Ireland and in many other Western countries, in order to safeguard against the conviction of the innocent.

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

This thread is loaded with certain posters crying classic MRA derailing strategies like "Women rape too!!!" (seen in the first response) and shutting down a conversation (or derailing a thread) with "not all men". Nothing beneficial can come that. Dangerous territory in here, and this forum in general. I hope to god it's only the attitude of a misguided few.

No, people are looking for reasoned arguments to backed up by facts, something that you have not provided.

As I understand it, rape culture is a phrase which means that society has normalized sexual violence against women. If you ask people to accept that, prove it with statistics rather than expecting unquestioning acceptance.

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

yet has there been a "prove it" mentioned here or is that reserved for females? It's thrown around that women fake claims. Is that responded to with ,"prove it?" as well?

You dismiss this call for evidence. Perhaps you say that the statistics are not there or they are not relevant. That just means that your argument is weak.

eviltwin

silverharp wrote: »

can you break this down a bit? who says anything about inferior? from my experience its clear that boys and girls have different interest in toys and there is science to back this up. Also even playing along boys get shamed a lot for their interests, its almost part of the cultural narratives that boys that want to be neck deep in electronics or play chess are "nerds" and "gamers" come in for a lot of abuse as well

I think she means the same toys but in girls and boys variety. I was in Smyths the other day and saw an interaction with the parents of a little boy of about 2. He was looking at the balls and picked up one with the girls from Frozen on it. His dad told him it was a girls toy and changed it for one with a Marvel character on it. Its a ball, does it really matter to the game who is on it, no but the dad and mum were quick to make sure their child didn't play with the wrong one.

You see this a lot as a parent, there are many toys that come in two colours pink and blue, now of course its a marketing ploy but parents buy into it. And it seems to be very much skewed ie a girl can buy clothes in blue, boys clothes rarely come in pink, a girl playing with an action figure is okay but give a boy a Barbie and he gets slagged.

I see this with my own son, he won't play with anything remotely girly because its sissy in his words. Am I sissy because I'm female? What does sissy even mean? He doesn't get this from home so its all driven from his friends and peers and I have to respect it but it does bother me.

silverharp

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

I'm sure your son is lovely, but do you honestly see no harm in messages out there aimed at lads? Have you read Steubenville, college rape articles, politicians degrading women and trivilialising rape victims? How do you imagine people with teenage daughters might feel? Do you have a daughter? Have you read the south Dublin gang rape houseparty article that's in trial?

Do you think that being self aware of how you might make others feel and modifying that behavoiour is more harmful than a person not feeling safe?

If you're walking home at night behind me and I am afraid of you, am I the one in the wrong, or is my fear stemmed from something? Should I surpress my fear so as not to make you feel "notallmen" and deny my instincts? And let's say you are an attacker? What then?

I have no problem with education that is based on science and robust psychology. teenagers go through life without being given much information in the way about how they tick. its gone from religiously moral based to secular moral based but very 2 dimensional, but absolutely not I have no desire to see my son be lectured to about how some politician behaved. By your logic all the deis schools should lecture the kids to not be violent or not be a burden on taxpayers.
With my dad goggles on I see how I can lay out a path for my son where he can enjoy his masculinity without trying to undermine him. I wouldn't trust a feminist designed message as the first page would have something about "toxic masculinity" in it

Sonics2k

Before I start replying, I'll just say this is a topic that can never be truly resolved. On the one hand you'll have some folks who won't accept blame for the crimes committed by a minority of men. For example, I see a lot of people (people I personally know) going on about how men are dangerous due to "rape culture", but at the same time will lose their nut if you were to imply all Muslims were dangerous due to the actions of a minority of Muslims.
And then we have people like Catari, who obviously has a personal and emotional response to this and so cannot be faulted for her (?) views.

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

You really believe youre right and that is frightening.

I think the handful posting here denying rape culture really highlight that they 1. Don't know what it is and 2. Are resistance to any change to society (which is at the core of MRA)

Please enlighten me as to how dehumanizing women in the forms of sexualised and degrading lyrics/ music videos, violent video games, PUA, rape jokes/ meme, locker room culture/ lad banter denegrading women/gays benenfits society? Instead of asking women to PROVE there's rape culture can you disprove it? Is it necessary for the above to be prevalent in society? Why CAN'T you call out a lad and say "stfu, that's not funny." Why CAN'T men be asked not to rape in the same way theyre taught not to steal/ murder etc.?

Now, anyone who knows me, my past and my posts during last years referendum will know for a fact I was raised by two women, in a very much matriarchal household and so this patriarchy stuff means little to me. I was very much raised to believe in Freedom of Speech, even if I heartily disagree with it.

On the subject of humour, it's entirely personal and subjective. I often find dark humour to be very funny, as does my biological Mother. People do have the right to make jokes which others may not find amusing. People have the right to play violent video games (which are proven to not impact on people view of sex or violence btw, going back as far as the 90's.)
You seem to speak as if it's only straight males who act like this, or in a strong sexual manner, and if you do believe this I suggest you simply Google Tom Hardy or other actors (Very NSFW link here). Now this isn't whataboutery, this is me simply saying maybe you should look around the internet a bit more. We live in an age where it has become increasingly acceptable for women to be more outwardly sexual, which was a huge part of 2nd Wave Feminism.
Of course there is more sexual images and attitudes toward women, but I would honestly say that the amount of sexual images and attitudes toward men has massively increased to suit the gay male and straight female audiences.

Does it benefit society when some blokes make inappropriate jokes? Of course not. But neither does playing Soccer, or watching an episode of East Enders.
Does that person have the right to say those things, absolutely. Do you have the right to say "That's offensive and stupid." Oh God yes you do.
However, neither of you has the right to silence the other and accuse them of being a rapist/rape apologist or a crazy feminazi. Doing that does not benefit society.

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

If we all thought that way then racist speak would still be ok. Nowadays some media that was normal and even comical (supposedly) back in the day is shocking to us. Did that infringe on your rights? Has it impacted on your life? It certainly impacted on the way people it AFFECTED. In the same way that rape culture affects girls and teaches them they're lesser or a piece of meat or their bodies are.

How many times is the Diet Coke ad used as an example of sexism against men and complained about here? That ad wasn't created by women btw, they don't control the media.

Now, personally, I find the term "rape culture" to be the wrong term completely. I would say "sexual culture" to be a lot more accurate. Rape culture implies we as a society believe rape is okay, which is totally not the truth. Far too many cases go unreported or are poorly handled. Too often we see cases where the innocent, the victims in these crimes do not get the help they need, either due to their own fears, or lack of proper consideration by the Gardai.
I've done volunteer work with rape victims (hard enough to get into as a guy) and the reason I did it is due the fact I personally know two girls were raped. I'll take honest pride in admitting openly I got my hands on her attacker and beat the **** out of him, and I'd do it again.
But she couldn't report the crime because she showered herself and cleaned herself. The saddest part of this is that she destroyed the evidence, and I still remember the pain in the Gardas face when she told her. (Sorry I waffled here).
Basically, the world changes with time. Throughout the 70's, 80's and 90's we pushed for freedom of sexuality, to show that women can be just as sexual as men and have positive attitudes toward sex.
There is nothing wrong with sexual attraction or finding someone sexy, we all do it. The important thing is how we act upon it.

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

Why is it acceptable to tell girls how to dress to avoid "asking for it" (US school dress codes) but not say "hang on, boys can behave civilly, they're not animals, they can disrepect girls and do their studies in a room with bare shoulders/ knees on show." Dress codes teach girls that THEY are to blame for impinging on boys, ruining their studies, existing in the world with their breasts, and at the same time it let's males off the hook with a very clear message; "you couldn't resist, it's her fault."

I'll disagree here, because it's nonsense. Dress codes are in place to show an acceptable level of clothing in a certain environment. The office my fiancee works in does not allow short skirts, men must be either suit pants or khaki pants, women have to be dressed in something like a shirt, suit pants or a long skirt.
In the office I worked in, men were required to wear a shirt and tie.
When I was in the Army Reserves, all of us (male and female) were required to be in full uniform at all times on duty and when we were on our way to and from the barracks.
In school all the boys were required to the uniform, long pants, tie and all that. All the girls were required to wear either a knee length skirt or the trousers.

Going to school in an extremely short skirt, low cut top, or hot pants is not acceptable. Most of the schools won't allow boys to go to school in shorts that are too tight, or even a tshirt with a band name on it. In Australia I was sent home from school for wearing a Korn t-shirt as it was deemed against the dress code.

However, with that said, over imposing dress codes is sexist on both sides. It's objectifying girls but it also implies that boys can think of absolutely nothing but sex and can't possibly have a female friend. Which is absolute gibberish.

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

There's no men's right to not be tarred with a brush. Sorry it's true. Yes, women commit sex crimes too, but it's 1% of cases. Yes a minority are malicious and cry rape. Yes, men get sexuually assaulted too (1 in 6) yet has there been a "prove it" mentioned here? It's thrown around that women fake claims. Is that responded to with ,"prove it?" as well?

No massive disagreement from me here, but I'll say there are certainly mens rights issues which do need to be addressed, and honestly speaking, the majority of people I know involved in it are women. I spent 4 months in court just fighting to get a legal right to see my own children.

I was recently doing an interview for a job, mentioned I needed weekends off to be my children as a single dad and was told they "only really cater those kinds of shifts to mothers". That's pretty damn sexist.

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

Legal systems are designed to protect victims not attackers, like any crime. Start assuming men aren't capable of rape and that she's prob a lying vindictive bitch or asking for it drunk slut wirh regrets is stacking the odds in favour of the rapist. Rape victims are statistically likely not to have their assailant prosecuted. Does a not guilty verdict mean it didn't happen? If convictions represented rapes then I guess rape is a miniscule problem.

I wholeheartedly agree with you. Too many rapists get away with it. Even after it has been reported. However, as like with every other crime, we cannot prosecute without evidence. Rape is an extremely hard crime to prove without DNA or physical evidence.
We absolutely need better systems in place, and a considerably better response system to handle the cases. However, failure within the system is not the result of rape culture, rather ineffective policing and routines. And yes, far to short sentences handed down to the convicted. Jail em up for life in a 4 foot room is my opinion.

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

Read the wallet theft analogy of rape victim blaming if you get a chance.

The problem with analogies is that you can make them say anything you want to suit a personal bias. We've all done that.
For example, there was the analogy that if you replace the word girl with "jew/black/asian/" in becomes unacceptably racist.
But at the same time, I can take a recipe on how to make a roast chicken and if I replace chicken with "jew/black/asian" it also becomes extremely racist, or replace salt with arsenic and it becomes deadly.

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

As for "how can I avoid being raped?" That comment was flippant and blasé. It's how I read it, it's how I responded. But the thing is men AREN'T TOLD how to dress, where to go, not to sleep around, not to do xyz. THAT is rape culture. As a man do you have a day to day fear that you'll be raped and have to keep your guard up? Do you worry that if you are raped you'll be victim blamed and asked what you were wearing and how much you drank?

To cover the first part, it's not rape culture. It's caution from a concerned person. I grew up in a pretty crappy part of Cork (Knocknaheeny) with an English accent. Whenever I left the house my parents told to me to be careful. When my fiancee goes out for drinks with her friends I tell her to be careful, because town can be rough and honestly, she's gentle as hell. When I go out she says the same to me, because she's concerned.
I'll also firmly disagree with you about men not being told how to dress, where to go and not to sleep around. Sure, within a circle of blokes they'll brag about it, but you can be damn sure their parents tell them not to.
I have been sexually assaulted while out, only about 2 or 3 years ago while talking to a group a girl came over, chatted nicely for a few minutes and then quite literally shoved her hand into my jeans, grabbed my penis and said "how about you come with me and give me that".
Of course everyone laughed about it. Even I did at first, and it was only a few minutes later I kinda clicked on to what happened.

Now, -absolutely anyone- whoever tries to imply rape or sexual assault is the direct fault of the victim is complete scum.
As a man on a night out or on my way home I'm aware that I'm more likely to be physically assaulted or get in a fight. I have little concern about it as I'm 6' foot tall and have a good 13 years of martial arts behind me. But it has happened.
Are you aware that even less male victims of rape report the crime than female victims due to that shame of it? Please, do not imply that the shame brought on victims is worse for women than it is for men. It's just a problem overall.

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

This thread is loaded with certain posters crying classic MRA derailing strategies like "Women rape too!!!" (seen in the first response) and shutting down a conversation (or derailing a thread) with "not all men". Nothing beneficial can come that. Dangerous territory in here, and this forum in general. I hope to god it's only the attitude of a misguided few.

You're right, it's not beneficial at all. But then, neither is coming to the forum and calling people discussing with you a rape apologist or sexist.
I've read a lot of the comments here, and yes, I see a few MRA types on this board, and I dislike virtually everything they say. But they really just come across as a mirror to yourself.
Hard headed, refusing to accept another persons opinion, and most likely, speaking from some kind of personal history which has strongly impacted your bias and opinions.


In answer to the OP.
Some men rape because they are evil, vindictive pieces of shít who care nothing for the feelings of others. No amount of altering school uniforms, video games or music will change that.
We need to find them, convict them and punish them for life.

ancapailldorcha

eviltwin wrote: »

I think she means the same toys but in girls and boys variety. I was in Smyths the other day and saw an interaction with the parents of a little boy of about 2. He was looking at the balls and picked up one with the girls from Frozen on it. His dad told him it was a girls toy and changed it for one with a Marvel character on it. Its a ball, does it really matter to the game who is on it, no but the dad and mum were quick to make sure their child didn't play with the wrong one.

We are making progress on this in fairness but there is a ways to go. The idea of "girls toys" and "boys toys" is slowly become antiquated and not before time IMO.

eviltwin wrote: »

I see this with my own son, he won't play with anything remotely girly because its sissy in his words. Am I sissy because I'm female? What does sissy even mean? He doesn't get this from home so its all driven from his friends and peers and I have to respect it but it does bother me.

Of course not, E. This is something kids need to be educated about.

orubiru

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

Please enlighten me as to how dehumanizing women in the forms of sexualised and degrading lyrics/ music videos, violent video games, PUA, rape jokes/ meme, locker room culture/ lad banter denegrading women/gays benenfits society?

It doesn't benefit society. There you go.

Your proposal is that by banning these things you will be able to reduce the number of instances of rape, yes?

Did rape exist before the Internet? Did rape exist before TV? Did rape exist before radio? Did rape exist before pencils and paper? Did rape exist before language?

Is rape more or less prevalent now than it was in the past? Going back 25 years? 50 years? 100 years? More than 100 years?

Your approach to solving the problem appears to be based on lashing out at things that you personally don't like.

Yes, these things don't benefit society and maybe they even damage society. I don't know. YOU don't know. So stop pretending that you do.

You have failed to show HOW these things cause rape.
You have failed to quantify the extent of the damage done by these things.

If there was a study that said there were 1000 US College student parties that played only Beyonce songs for the evening resulting in zero sexual assaults and 1000 parties that played an assortment of music and then ended the evening with Blurred Lines, resulting in a high(er) number of sexual assaults, then we'd be able to say you are on to something here.

As it stands you have failed utterly to show the causal relationship between rape jokes, PUAs, violent video games etc and sexual assault.

So, yes, maybe these things do not benefit society but you are stretching to find a modern scapegoat for a problem that has existed for 1,000s of years.

Ask yourself honestly how you would feel about a social media campaign that said "Single Mothers! Stop Raising Rapists!".

Ask yourself how you would feel reading an editorial think piece that said that the real problem in society is that single mothers and young female teachers are raising the next generation of abusers and rapists.

I suspect you wouldn't feel good at all because, actually, that would be a perfect example of misogyny. Blaming women for societies problems.

You know this. There's no way you would sit back and timidly allow people on The Internet to vilify women. Especially if they have no proof. Especially when they can't show a causal relationship between the things they dislike and a horrible, horrible, crime.

So why are you so eager to vilify men, or pop culture or whatever here? I honestly don't get it.

You make a statement about the legal system and begin with "start assuming men aren't capable of rape". Here's the thing though, most men actually aren't capable of rape. It's an abhorrent and disgusting idea to them.

You start from an honourable and just position. Rape is bad. Rape happens. What can we do to stop it.

Somewhere along the line though you've got confused and twisted up and now it's like you aren't really interested in protecting or helping victims and you aren't really interested in preventing the crime. You are interested in pointing fingers and assigning blame.

You don't even know where to point though. It's bad jokes and objectifying lyrics. It's violent games and internet memes. Really? Didn't the problem exist before these things? Wasn't the problem actually worse in the past?

The only reason I can see for believing that Rape Culture is real is that is gives us somewhere to place the blame.

So when that person that we really just don't like makes a sexist joke we can link them to sexual assault and shame them for being a terrible person.

Great, good for you, you've developed a mechanism for successfully attacking anonymous internet posters, MRAs and celebrities that don't toe the line. That thing they just said contributes to Rape Culture. Shame on them. Does it feel good?

You talk about "the attitude of a misguided few" but how can you expect people to understand the complexities behind a crime that none of them will ever commit? A crime that none of them will even think of committing. A crime that disgusts and angers almost every one of us.

You claim to have solutions but people have questions. Instead of answering the objections you lash out in anger. Why?

You use a provocative, but pretty nebulous phrase, like "Rape Culture" and then try to bully people who don't understand what the hell you are on about.

You live in a society where rape is universally condemned BUT you want to argue that we have a "Rape Culture". Are you REALLY that surprised when people don't take your words as gospel?

silverharp

eviltwin wrote: »

I think she means the same toys but in girls and boys variety. I was in Smyths the other day and saw an interaction with the parents of a little boy of about 2. He was looking at the balls and picked up one with the girls from Frozen on it. His dad told him it was a girls toy and changed it for one with a Marvel character on it. Its a ball, does it really matter to the game who is on it, no but the dad and mum were quick to make sure their child didn't play with the wrong one.

You see this a lot as a parent, there are many toys that come in two colours pink and blue, now of course its a marketing ploy but parents buy into it. And it seems to be very much skewed ie a girl can buy clothes in blue, boys clothes rarely come in pink, a girl playing with an action figure is okay but give a boy a Barbie and he gets slagged.

I see this with my own son, he won't play with anything remotely girly because its sissy in his words. Am I sissy because I'm female? What does sissy even mean? He doesn't get this from home so its all driven from his friends and peers and I have to respect it but it does bother me.

I'd probably have done the same in fairness even though I am fully aware that colors are arbitrary , pink was considered a boys colour a hundred years ago. I think some parents get it wrong if they don't let girls play with stereotypical boys toys because for a start a % of girls will have more masculine traits and vice versa and you are only making them miserable
However in terms of raising a boy, part of being himself is acknowledging that he is in competition and being judged by other boys be it socially , academically etc. and in the future will be judged by girls

eviltwin

silverharp wrote: »

I'd probably have done the same in fairness even though I am fully aware that colors are arbitrary , pink was considered a boys colour a hundred years ago. I think some parents get it wrong if they don't let girls play with stereotypical boys toys because for a start a % of girls will have more masculine traits and vice versa and you are only making them miserable
However in terms of raising a boy, part of being himself is acknowledging that he is in competition and being judged by other boys be it socially , academically etc. and in the future will be judged by girls

You see, I don't understand that. I don't see how a picture on a ball makes any difference to a child not old enough to be really aware of the picture in the first place. Its a ball, it doesn't matter what it looks like, its still going to get used the same way regardless.

silverharp

eviltwin wrote: »

You see, I don't understand that. I don't see how a picture on a ball makes any difference to a child not old enough to be really aware of the picture in the first place. Its a ball, it doesn't matter what it looks like, its still going to get used the same way regardless.

but the general custom is that for very young children that you can identify them easily as a boy or girl , the rest is just habit. I don't believe it affects a two year olds development one iota if they played with a pink Frozen ball but its also clear that kids become aware of their gender sometime after that and they will tend to want to reinforce that themselves. they have gone to extraordinary lengths in Sweden in particular to do away with gender yet it persists because its part of our nature.

Wibbs

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

I'm sure your son is lovely, but do you honestly see no harm in messages out there aimed at lads? Have you read Steubenville, college rape articles, politicians degrading women and trivilialising rape victims?

Ranged against the overwhelming amount of messages against rape. But you chose the moral panic stuff to kick off on.

If you're walking home at night behind me and I am afraid of you, am I the one in the wrong, or is my fear stemmed from something? Should I surpress my fear so as not to make you feel "notallmen" and deny my instincts? And let's say you are an attacker? What then?

You are so engrained in this victimhood thinking that you are immediately in fear of all men at night. Attacker or no. As a man I'm far more likely than you are as a woman to be physically assaulted, injured or killed by another man while out at night. This is a statistical fact and one you will find reflected in the A&E depts of any major Irish hospital at the weekend. Do I then assume all men are violent attackers and walk in fear at night? Of course I do not, because I am a rational adult human being that generally only reacts to a rational threat, not irrational paranoia borne aloft by ideology and cherry picking of minority incidences. Now if I have been previously attacked and still suffer the mental scars from that, then yes I would naturally be more fearful and it may restrict me as such scars often do, however even then, as a rational adult human being I would objectively know that that is a fear coming from my personal experience and no matter how personally debilitating it might be and how my gut might react, this is not a reflection on all men as potential attackers. It would mean for a start ignoring the efforts of the men(and women) who came to my aid afterward, who treated me for any injuries, who supported me and continued to do so.

In short I have an emotional often irrational mind that can be shaped by experience, but I am also in possession of a rational mind that must always be in play to find the usually loud signal among the usually quiet noise.

Reading this thread and a couple of others in here I am starting to see a lot of hate, bile, asshmptions posted as fact that makes me think is toxic hair trigger away from psychopathic behaviour... not doing yourselves or supposed MRA any good.

And you reckon yourself a good advocate for feminist thought when you publicly and happily state something like this?

There's no men's right to not be tarred with a brush. Sorry it's true.

You are quite content on the back of your ideology and worldview to besmirch an entire gender with the same label. That you can't see how sexist that is and ironic with it is beyond belief. Joke is you've likely got away with saying this kinda thing before among your peers, so how is that so different from crass laddish talk?

Pat Mustard wrote: »

Looking for evidence is not being unreasonable.

One would think that alright, but apparently not so much.

Sonics2k wrote: »

And then we have people like Catari, who obviously has a personal and emotional response to this and so cannot be faulted for her (?) views.

You know S, I agree with pretty much the entirety of your post, save for this part. Damn right someone can be faulted. Emotions should not be a get out of gaol free card, except in extremis. Put it this way S and if I may nick one angle of yours, if I stated; "There's no Muslim's right to not be tarred with a brush. Sorry it's true" as CJ happily typed out previously about an entire gender, would you really give me much time for that? Would you think me not at fault in my thinking? I really doubt it. Indeed you point that disconnect out in your post.

Too often these days we're all too wary of apportioning "fault" to certain protected notions and those that espouse them and I think that's wrong headed. Especially I would say if we give a free ride to someone because of their gender. We're not far off saying that "women are emotional creatures forever filtering life through the personal, so when they go off on one we have to make some allowances. Bless". Feminism already denies women agency on a number of accounts, it doesn't need adding to that list. My 2 cents anyway.

In answer to the OP.
Some men rape because they are evil, vindictive pieces of shít who care nothing for the feelings of others. No amount of altering school uniforms, video games or music will change that.
We need to find them, convict them and punish them for life.

+1000

orubiru

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

If you're walking home at night behind me and I am afraid of you, am I the one in the wrong, or is my fear stemmed from something? Should I surpress my fear so as not to make you feel "notallmen" and deny my instincts? And let's say you are an attacker? What then?

There's no simple answer here.

No, you are not in the wrong because walking home an night time some stranger walking behind you? That's a vulnerable position for any person, even men, to be in and instinct surely kicks in.

In the moment then I'd say it's better to err on the side of caution and stay aware and safe. To hell with that random strangers feelings. I'd rather hurt someone's feelings than be caught unaware with a punch to the head and have my wallet stolen.

Outside of that moment though? Well, if you went home and said to male friends or relatives that you were afraid out there because we all know what men are like with the raping and the groping and the cat calling then that's a little insulting, don't you think?

The trick, I suppose, is finding the way to bring actual problems to light, and then proposing actual solutions, without generalising people or trying to simplify people.

Remember, one of the things that makes Homo Sapiens so successful as a species is the ability to recognise patterns and act upon that. So when you see that 99% of rapists are men some folks brains might go "OK! Man = Rapist! Got it!".

One of the keys to a constructive debate is actually being able to accept "not all men" as a pretty valid point.

When "Not All Men" is met with "Yes All Men", you don't have a discussion, you have an argument.