Hyundai Ioniq 28kWh

KCross

unkel wrote: »

It would not be impossible to only have one fuel power station left over, working 24/7, as micro generation mostly works only during the day. That would mean the end of night meters though

Cheap solution for the government, moving responsibility and maintenance away off to the home owner and drastically reducing CO2 without it costing much at all...

Day/Night meters are likely to be on the way out anyway in the very near future. The CER is at an advanced stage in making a decision on that.

The probable plan is to go with smart meters (half hourly rates) and they will go for an en-masse refit of every meter in the country(2.2million of them). They expect that to happen in 2018+ according to their timetable. They have already completed pilot projects.

http://www.cer.ie/document-detail/Smart-Metering-Project-Phase-3/1021


The EV's will need a way to maximise the tariffs provided by the energy suppliers. Not sure about other EV's but the Leaf only allows you to specify two timed charges per day. Maybe that will be enough... it depends on what the energy providers come up with.

Does the Ioiniq have a more sophisticated charge timer/smart-meter capability?

cros13

unkel wrote: »

the government here will let people feed back into the grid, not paying them but just reversing the meter. That's what happens in many countries on the continent.

I'm afraid that's not the case in Ireland. That would be net metering. The current regulations require your meter to be replaced (at your expense) with a specifically certified (Irish additions to the european standard) Import/Export meter that costs as much as 10 times what a UK-certified Import/Export meter costs. This counts export separately and you receive no credit whatsoever for the electricity you export. Electric Ireland just sells the power (that incurred no cost to them in generation or transmission) to your neighbour at retail price and you get nothing. It's a situation unique among EU countries.

KCross wrote: »

.The probable plan is to go with smart meters (half hourly rates) and they will go for an en-masse refit of every meter in the country(2.2million of them). They expect that to happen in 2018+ according to their timetable. They have already completed pilot projects.

I was told ESB were pushing for 15 minute increments on the smart meters. But that was about a year ago.

KCross wrote: »

Does the Ioiniq have a more sophisticated charge timer/smart-meter capability?

It has a reasonable API and Hyundai themselves have implemented integration with IFTTT, Amazon Alexa and Google Assistant. BMW has no public API but has IFTTT and Alexa support through BMW Labs which is not available outside of the US, Germany and UK.

Soarer

positron wrote: »

And this from James & Kate:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3yu37Bqk3s

Any chance we could stick to the topic?

That review is very interesting.

You can see it's raining and dull, so the wipers/lights are probably on. And yet, they done 57 miles for 18%!

highdef

Anyone know if there will be more than one offering of trim level? Currently have a Leaf with leather and any new purchase will also require leather. This does not seem to be an option at the moment, which is a bit disappointing.

cros13

highdef wrote: »

Anyone know if there will be more than one offering of trim level? Currently have a Leaf with leather and any new purchase will also require leather. This does not seem to be an option at the moment, which is a bit disappointing.

I was told by Hyundai that one trim level will be imported. I had understood that this meant the top trim with leather would be the only one offered.

Soarer

Here's a "real world" driving video. Interesting distance covered!

Ioniq

Bigus

Soarer wrote: »

Here's a "real world" driving video. Interesting distance covered!

Ioniq

Wow 351.1 km on a single charge in an Ioniq

KCross

Soarer wrote: »

Here's a "real world" driving video. Interesting distance covered!

Ioniq

Am I right in saying they did all of that drive under 55km/h?
Hardly "real world" and a bit misleading.

grogi

KCross wrote: »

Am I right in saying they did all of that drive under 55km/h?
Hardly "real world" and a bit misleading.

At least they kept to the inside lane on the motorway

Soarer

KCross wrote: »

Am I right in saying they did all of that drive under 55km/h?
Hardly "real world" and a bit misleading.

You obviously didn't understand what I meant by the quote marks!

That's the average speed I think.

Here a screen grab from near the start.

KCross

If they could do the same drive at the same average in a 30kWh Leaf then we could compare.

Regardless, its a good distance on one charge.

All the talk is that the Ioniq is a good bit more efficient than a Leaf. Anyone know how they achieved that? Presumably its not aerodynamics to any great degree. A kWh is a kWh so it must be something in the build or electronics.

Is it motor efficiency? Is it better regen? Better build around centre of gravity or something else in the build that makes rolling resistance better?

Anyone know?

Soarer

Couldn't tell ya.

But I'd imagine, for most people's day-to-day driving, an average of 55km/h wouldn't be too far off the mark.

Plus, it kinda ties in with the James and Kate review, where they did 57 miles for 18%.

grogi

KCross wrote: »

If they could do the same drive at the same average in a 30kWh Leaf then we could compare.

Regardless, its a good distance on one charge.

All the talk is that the Ioniq is a good bit more efficient than a Leaf. Anyone know how they achieved that? Presumably its not aerodynamics to any great degree. A kWh is a kWh so it must be something in the build or electronics.

Is it motor efficiency? Is it better regen? Better build around centre of gravity or something else in the build that makes rolling resistance better?

Anyone know?

I think all together. But I think most can be gained by improving the efficiency of the regenerative breaking and associated with it charging.

grogi

Soarer wrote: »

Couldn't tell ya.

But I'd imagine, for most people's day-to-day driving, an average of 55km/h wouldn't be too far off the mark.

Plus, it kinda ties in with the James and Kate review, where they did 57 miles for 18%.

Average of 55 km/h sounds life-like, but not going above 60-65 km/h - not really. Unless you want to get a dedicated thread in "slow EV drivers blocking the road" section of boards.

Soarer

grogi wrote: »

Average of 55 km/h sounds life-like, but not going above 60-65 km/h - not really. Unless you want to get a dedicated thread in "slow EV drivers blocking the road" section of boards.

Suppose it depends where you're living really.

But I agree. Most would spend as much time over 60km/h as they would under 50km/h.

liamog

cros13 wrote: »

I was told by Hyundai that one trim level will be imported. I had understood that this meant the top trim with leather would be the only one offered.

From comparing the UK and Ireland offering, I think we're only getting the Premium trim

Villain

Drive it on a motorway at 120kmh for a while and see how it long it lasts.

I find this comes up a lot with EV talk, oh they are so quick off the power, instant awesome power. But few mention divining it to the speed limit on Motorways drains the battery so quick it would depress you!

KCross

Soarer wrote: »

Couldn't tell ya.

But I'd imagine, for most people's day-to-day driving, an average of 55km/h wouldn't be too far off the mark.

Plus, it kinda ties in with the James and Kate review, where they did 57 miles for 18%.

I havent watched that video but that would work out at 500km's for a charge! Thats even more misleading, thats Tesla territory.

The percentages must be telling lies there. A bit like how the Leaf doesnt reduce its percentages in a linear fashion either. I bet there is some of that going on here.

Ultimately its a 28kWh car and it cant be THAT much better than the 30kWh Leaf.... better, because its newer tech under the hood, but just not that much better.


Half of my journey is on motorway so 55km/h would be nowhere near normal for me. A city driver, yes. I suppose it might be.

positron

There is another video on YouTube where they drove Ioniq at 40-60 kmph purely city streets and they got something like 400km to a charge. Perhaps someone here who knows EV technology can better explain how this is possible.

grogi

positron wrote: »

There is another video on YouTube where they drove Ioniq at 40-60 kmph purely city streets and they got something like 400km to a charge. Perhaps someone here who knows EV technology can better explain how this is possible.

The drag increases with the square of the velocity, while the power required to overcome it goes with the velocity cubed (sic/!) .

In other words - the energy requirement is very small in the city speed range, but explodes once you get onto the motorway.

positron

Sorry, didn't realise that video was posted and discussed already.

liamog

KCross wrote: »

Ultimately its a 28kWh car and it cant be THAT much better than the 30kWh Leaf.... better, because its newer tech under the hood, but just not that much better.

It has a much lower drag coefficient than the leaf which is probably making the difference (0.24 vs the 0.32)

The leaf number is from here

KCross

I had a quick look at the stats for the 30kWh leaf and the Ioniq and there is a substantial weight difference as well.

The max kerb weight of the 30kWh Leaf SVE is 1570kg vs 1475kg for the Ioniq.

100kg is a good bit of extra weight to be hauling. I'd say that and a more efficient motor are the primary gains for the Ioniq

Fiery mutant

Spoke with my dealer today, expecting to collect my Ioniq on Monday. I'll speak with eCars tomorrow and see when it would be possible to get the charger installed, if it won't be too long, I might wait to collect the car, if it's gonna be a few weeks, I'll collect when it's ready.

KCross

Fiery mutant wrote: »

Spoke with my dealer today, expecting to collect my Ioniq on Monday. I'll speak with eCars tomorrow and see when it would be possible to get the charger installed, if it won't be too long, I might wait to collect the car, if it's gonna be a few weeks, I'll collect when it's ready.

Why wait?
Does it have a granny cable that you can plugin to a 3 pin socket while you wait for the proper charge point?

unkel

liamog wrote: »

It has a much lower drag coefficient than the leaf which is probably making the difference (0.24 vs the 0.32)
[/URL]

+1

And this makes a very significant difference, and exponentially so in speeds over 80km/h. I would love to see range for 30kWh Leaf vs 28kWh Ioniq at a constant 140km/h

Wouldn't be surprised if the Ioniq gets 40-50% further.

unkel

cros13 wrote: »

I'm afraid that's not the case in Ireland. That would be net metering. The current regulations require your meter to be replaced (at your expense) with a specifically certified

Yeah I know all that. Would have PV on the roof already if it would work like it does in continental Europe

Fair enough if you have to have your PV installation done by (or signed off by) a registered and qualified sparky but what a load of bull to need a different (and extremely expensive) meter :mad:

The one in my parents house (not in Ireland) coped fine and it is nearly 50 years old...

And then to add insult to injury you don't get paid for feeding the grid, saving the government billions and making the transition to lower CO2 easy peasy for them :rolleyes:

Are the ministers / senior civil servants just ignorant or what's the story here?

phoenix49

positron wrote: »

There is another video on YouTube where they drove Ioniq at 40-60 kmph purely city streets and they got something like 400km to a charge. Perhaps someone here who knows EV technology can better explain how this is possible.

I think they used level 3 regenerative braking thus almost avoided hitting the brake pedal. I guess regen braking on Ioniq is much more efficient than that on Leaf.

unkel

Fiery mutant wrote: »

Spoke with my dealer today, expecting to collect my Ioniq on Monday. I'll speak with eCars tomorrow and see when it would be possible to get the charger installed, if it won't be too long, I might wait to collect the car, if it's gonna be a few weeks, I'll collect when it's ready.

Just use a granny cable until the charger is installed?

unkel

Villain wrote: »

I find this comes up a lot with EV talk, oh they are so quick off the power, instant awesome power. But few mention divining it to the speed limit on Motorways drains the battery so quick it would depress you!

Yep. Here's a simple depressing sum:

a 24 kWh EV that has 72 kWh max power uses 100% of it's battery capacity in 20 minutes when it is using full power. Let's say it uses full power at its maximum speed of 150km/h*

That means range is 30 miles / 50 km


*even if there is a speed limiter and the car isn't quite using all it's power at that speed just yet, the range won't be a lot more than this...

Fiery mutant

KCross wrote: »

Why wait?
Does it have a granny cable that you can plugin to a 3 pin socket while you wait for the proper charge point?

Yeah it comes with the cable to plug straight into a 3 pin socket. I just don't have an outside or shed based socket to plug into, so would need to run a cable outside for the night from the sitting room or an upstairs bedroom.

KCross

unkel wrote: »

Yep. Here's a simple depressing sum:

a 24 kWh EV that has 72 kWh max power uses 100% of it's battery capacity in 20 minutes when it is using full power. Let's say it uses full power at its maximum speed of 150km/h*

That means range is 30 miles / 50 km


*even if there is a speed limiter and the car isn't quite using all it's power at that speed just yet, the range won't be a lot more than this...

That's a meaningless example as its not possible to physically do it. You could apply the same logic to a Tesla and get sh*t numbers as well but I don't think anyone says a 60kWh Tesla is sh*t.

The only figures that matter are what you get out of it on "normal" driving which is still an issue of course, just that your example isn't useful to anyone.

We all know what the car can do in real terms.

unkel

KCross wrote: »

The only figures that matter are what you get out of it on "normal" driving which is still an issue of course, just that your example isn't useful to anyone.

Are you serious? Of course it's not meaningless. The fact is that there's only a tiny bit of energy on board. It's the only extreme disadvantage of current affordable EVs

A Leaf has 24kWh of energy on board. A similar size, similar price petrol car has a tank of say 48l, so has 480kWh on board. That's 20 times as much :eek:

In any similar petrol car you could drive from Lucan to Limerick and back at 150km/h and probably still have plenty of fuel left

In a Leaf you'd run out of juice while just past Naas

Obviously with regenerative braking and driving at slow speeds, you don't notice it as much. But drive on motorways and this massive drawback comes to light. That's the point Villain is trying to make. And he's right that EV evangelists don't want to know about this

positron

This car makes a lot of sense with it's adaptive cruise control and lane assist.. hmm, I am thinking this could be the perfect car for the horrendous M50 rush hour traffic, sit there and read/work while the car negotiates the millions crawl-stop-crawls-stop cycles, it even lets you set how many car spaces you want to leave between it and the car ahead, and for M50 rush-hour crawl it will have to be 1 (shame 0.25 is not an option).

Really looking forward to Nissan's big reveal now - I hope they bring out a cracking Leaf II, compelling Hyundai to retaliate with a 40-50kWh Ioniq so that I can buy one!

KCross

unkel wrote: »

Are you serious? Of course it's not meaningless. The fact is that there's only a tiny bit of energy on board. It's the only extreme disadvantage of current affordable EVs

A Leaf has 24kWh of energy on board. A similar size, similar price petrol car has a tank of say 48l, so has 480kWh on board. That's 20 times as much :eek:

In any similar petrol car you could drive from Lucan to Limerick and back at 150km/h and probably still have plenty of fuel left

In a Leaf you'd run out of juice while just past Naas

Obviously with regenerative braking and driving at slow speeds, you don't notice it as much. But drive on motorways and this massive drawback comes to light. That's the point Villain is trying to make. And he's right that EV evangelists don't want to know about this

I'm serious that it was a meaningless example to give. No disagreements that range is an issue. I'm no evangelist btw and don't have my head in the sand about the limitations of the current EV's.

unkel

Maybe meaningless to someone who doesn't mind staying below say 90km/h, maybe 100km/h at a push, on motorways and rarely does more than 100km of motorways in a day, but for someone like myself who likes to press on this is not meaningless at all, I can assure you that.

KCross

unkel wrote: »

Maybe meaningless to someone who doesn't mind staying below say 90km/h, maybe 100km/h at a push, on motorways and rarely does more than 100km of motorways in a day, but for someone like myself who likes to press on this is not meaningless at all, I can assure you that.

Fair enough. What kWh would satisfy you?

If you use your max power example, which I still believe is meaningless, you are going to need a serious battery size that's probably decades away before it's going to satisfy your criteria.

We are off topic again so I'm happy to agree to disagree at this point.

macnab

unkel wrote: »

Maybe meaningless to someone who doesn't mind staying below say 90km/h, maybe 100km/h at a push, on motorways and rarely does more than 100km of motorways in a day, but for someone like myself who likes to press on this is not meaningless at all, I can assure you that.

In order to use maximum power for the whole journey you would have to be in a constant state of acceleration, which is impossible.

Water John

Look, stop the hypotethical. Put each EV on the motorway from A, staying within the legal limit but as near as possible to it and see where each car stops.
That is a realistic motoring proposition.
If Evs don't do very well in the test, we know how far they have to mature, technology wise.

grogi

macnab wrote: »

In order to use maximum power for the whole journey you would have to be in a constant state of acceleration, which is impossible.

The power goes into two things
- acceleration, which translates into increase of kinetic energy
- overcoming the drag (from surface friction, air resistance etc,) - which translates into heat, a.k.a. thermal energy

Because the drag increases with the velocity, more and more power is consumed at simply beating it. At some stage an equilibrium is reached - all the power is consumed in that manner and no acceleration happens.

Villain

Water John wrote: »

Look, stop the hypotethical. Put each EV on the motorway from A, staying within the legal limit but as near as possible to it and see where each car stops.
That is a realistic motoring proposition.
If Evs don't do very well in the test, we know how far they have to mature, technology wise.

I have actually driven one on a motorway and I can tell you it does bloody awful, at 120kmh I would say range on 24kw leaf is under 80km but also depends on temp and terrain etc.

The main point is driving an EV as you would drive an ICE on Motorway means the advertised ranges are way off

cros13

macnab wrote: »

In order to use maximum power for the whole journey you would have to be in a constant state of acceleration, which is impossible.

Accurate.... and under hard acceleration. The BMS on my i3 would start limiting the power output in under a minute.

My i3 has a 125kW motor. At 150km/h on the motorway it pulls 40-55kW... not 125kW. The problem with that speed tends to be a combination of the substantially increased wind resistance and the power consumption slowing down and speeding up due to other traffic.

I do most of my 187km commute at 130-140*cough* *cough* I mean a safe and legal 120km/h and no more....

Soarer

Why are people discussing how long the battery would last at maximum power?

Nobody is gonna do that, and that's not why EVs are being bought.

There's video evidence that in the right conditions, at an average of 55km/h, the Ioniq will do 350kms. Even if you lost 50% of that in un-ideal conditions, it's still a range that would suit most.

Water John

Personally, I would like a real and honest test of Evs.

We have had enough nonsensical impractical tests on ICE cars over the last 30 years.

Bigus

When the Prius 2 came out there was a lot of sniping by luddites that it was overly complicated and overly slow and heavy , and sure why would you want one over a turbo diesel that could do the same or better mileage on the motorway with less complication ?

However in reality the Prius turned out to have the best real world everyday consumption for numerous diverse driving situations worldwide, it also turned out to be ultra reliable.

Than fanboys discovered that if you drive a Prius in a certain way that you could dramatically reduce the amount of fuel used annually.
This caught on with long distance commuters that for the first time realised that a 10 or 20 Kmh reduction in speed could save them a fortune on Fuel . It's up to them to decide whether the time lost is more valuable or not.

SO EV s are a very similarly proposition, OK they won't let me belt up and down the motorway on a long commute at 140 Kmh , and that's fine.

and to large degree that's the way it's going to STAY regardless of technical advances.

However they do offer potentially vastly reduced travel costs and a dependence on OIL , which means a LOT ago manny many people.
Why else would 400k people put cash down on a Tesla model 3 .

So the Ioniq is indeed a revelation at its price and performance point TODAY,

It seems to be a great EV,

Hyundai Ioniq EV, it ain't and never will be a 2.0 twin turbo TDi , but sure they're poisoning us but Fire away up the motorway, your time is precious, never mind the resources.

cros13

As I said.... having test driven the Ioniq myself, the only thing stopping me enthusiastically recommending it to everyone is eCars current poor support for CCS (which it bears repeating is the european standard for rapid charging and is support by every EV manufacturer except Nissan/Mitsu and Kia (though they have all indicated they will be going CCS in europe)).

The eCar/CCS debacle is not the Ioniq's fault. And if you buy an Ioniq now, after the eCars situation inevitably gets sorted you'll end up in a better position with infrastructure support long term than with a Leaf (because even 350kW CCS v2 for the EVs of 2020s will be backwards compatible with the Ioniq).... but its the intervening period that's the kicker.

unkel

Funny thing is there is a CCS charger just round the corner from me. Not that I'm likely to use it much though.

I'm not overly worried about CCS chargers. But what is a genuine drawback for me is that even with a perfect network of chargers, long distance travelling will not be the same for me. Last time I did Lucan to Limerick, it took me 1:30. Obviously I went well over the posted speed limits at times (the motorway was empty and the circumstances were perfect). Then I got completely stuck in traffic for 30 minutes but after that delay it only took me another 1:30 to Dingle (sticking with the limits). And last time it took me 2:30 to Donegal (not once speeding). I will have to live with doubling or trebling these times and having anxiety over where to charge next (and for the way back), the bad CCS network will make this more severe. Thankfully I rarely make long trips

Another drawback mentioned in most reviews is the very serious cabin noise at motorway speeds

I'm very seriously considering buying an Ioniq, but added to the above, I am used to far bigger and far more powerful family cars (think 6 and 8 cylinder petrol BMW 5 and 7 series). An extended test drive will probably give me a good idea.

The one thing I obviously would look forward to is having almost zero cost of motoring once the car is paid for

Bigus

That's sorta what I was saying in my post referring to The Prius and changing habits.
If Unkel gets an EV than perhaps getting to Limerick in an hour and a half becomes frivolous , but getting five people there for €2.00 has real meaning.

personally the more I can do to pull the rug from under Oil supplying countries of a certain religious belief would be my motivation for going EV.

Bigus

Bigus wrote: »

Than fanboys discovered that if you drive a Prius in a certain way that you could dramatically reduce the amount of fuel used annually.
This caught on with long distance commuters that for the first time realised that a 10 or 20 Kmh reduction in speed could save them a fortune on Fuel . It's up to them to decide whether the time lost is more valuable or not.

Not a 10-20 Kmh reduction in speed , real fanboys discovered that there was a neutral position that could be found at a certain throttle position up to 74 Kwh would allowed coasting, which with some electric power could mean travelling trough some Irish villages or through most towns with 0 fuel consumption or any emissions.

This didn't mean driving slow deliberately as some anti Prius owners claimed, there are many driving conditions that suited this form of driving. As a MK II Prius driver for 4 years I knew this all to well. Great car.

Neutral can also be found in the Leaf at a certain throttle position, coasting is most efficient, regen isn't despite what some people think, driving with max regen isn't actually as efficient as they think.

Bigus

Deleted User wrote: »

Not a 10-20 Kmh reduction in speed , real fanboys discovered that there was a neutral position that could be found at a certain throttle position up to 74 Kwh would allowed coasting, which with some electric power could mean travelling trough some Irish villages or through most towns with 0 fuel consumption or any emissions.

This didn't mean driving slow deliberately as some anti Prius owners claimed, there are many driving conditions that suited this form of driving. As a MK II Prius driver for 4 years I knew this all to well. Great car.

Neutral can also be found in the Leaf at a certain throttle position, coasting is most efficient, regen isn't despite what some people think, driving with max regen isn't actually as efficient as they think.

I was trying to make a point without dragging the Ioniq post off topic, I'm well aware of pulse and glide.