Hyundai Ioniq 28kWh

Water John

It's lack of knowledge and fear/inertia of change are the key factors for an individual not considering an EV. Just what always applies to an alternative or new option to anything.
I personally find that inertia to change difficult to understand, but I am a minority. That is how people behave.
If they got clear leadership, they will then openly consider change. they may decide, not yet, for a range of reasons.
But getting people as far as considering an EV is the challenge. Not much use deriding humans for their inherent behaviour.

I have a had time trying to convince people at work, the interest just isn't there.

All people want is the diesel to get from A to B.

Water John

I'd be thinking more in terms of a national discussion.
Hybrids have been accepted. Personally don't much see the value of them.
The Ioniq will really help, as its a normal type car with an EV option.
This will help normalise the choice.

Hybrid is old tech, we all should have been driving Hybrids 10-13 years ago.

Most people won't even tough a hybrid in Ireland because it's not a diesel , hardly accepted.

Evd-Burner

Deleted User wrote:

I have a had time trying to convince people at work, the interest just isn't there.

Deleted User wrote:

All people want is the diesel to get from A to B.

Ah I'm sure you'll get one soon enough 😉

Evd-Burner

Evd-Burner wrote: »

Ah I'm sure you'll get one soon enough 😉

LOL I'm happy to think I had something to so with your decision to get a Leaf !

isnottheword

Quick Clarification/Question: I assume as I have not heard it mentioned that Hyundai have not gone down the road of battery leasing? I'm sure I would have come across mention of it already but just wanted to make sure? Hopefully, this practice is on the way out.

listermint

isnottheword wrote: »

Quick Clarification/Question: I assume as I have not heard it mentioned that Hyundai have not gone down the road of battery leasing? I'm sure I would have come across mention of it already but just wanted to make sure? Hopefully, this practice is on the way out.

They have not

unkel

Battery lease might have sounded like a good plan years ago when people were weary about the lifetime of batteries. But they never made much sense when the monthly rental wiped out the entire saving on fuel for a lot of people. And the selling prices hadn't come down anywhere near enough to compensate for that. Battery lease should have taken £5k off the UK prices. It didn't. And an 8-year warranty on the battery (as I believe the Leaf had from the start) was plenty to ease peoples minds.

I'd say the practice is well on the way out. Although I have to snigger at some dealers trying to sell '12 Fluence with a €90 a month battery lease (and no fast charging) for €7k

unkel

Battery lease might have sounded like a good plan years ago when people were weary about the lifetime of batteries. But they never made much sense when the monthly rental wiped out the entire saving on fuel for a lot of people. And the selling prices hadn't come down anywhere near enough to compensate for that. Battery lease should have taken £5k off the UK prices. It didn't. And an 8-year warranty on the battery (as I believe the Leaf had from the start) was plenty to ease peoples minds.

I'd say the practice is well on the way out. Although I have to snigger at some dealers trying to sell '12 Fluence with a €90 a month battery lease (and no fast charging) for €7k

n97 mini

And to add insult to Fluence injury

At the end of 2014, many drivers of the Fluence Z.E. started to suffer from range issues, the cars maximum range is 70–90 km. The local service replace batteries until March 2016 but this batteries drop from 22kwh to 16kwh in about 4 months. At April 2016, Renault stop replacing batteries under warranty

grogi

n97 mini wrote: »

And to add insult to Fluence injury

At the end of 2014, many drivers of the Fluence Z.E. started to suffer from range issues, the cars maximum range is 70–90 km. The local service replace batteries until March 2016 but this batteries drop from 22kwh to 16kwh in about 4 months. At April 2016, Renault stop replacing batteries under warranty

One can only hope Renault did draw some lessons from the Fluence Z.E. disaster...

peposhi

Deleted User wrote: »

The Ioniq can charge at 60-65 Kw all the way to about 82% then about 20 Kw until 90 odd %.

I'm not sure 300 Kms range is enough to persuade Irish people to change, you'd be surprised the amount of people where I live who insist the Coal is still the best , cheapest form of heating, the dirtiest smokey coal, won't even burn smokeless. These people will never change........

Then there's the fact that we need car manufacturers to take the finger out and electrify their entire fleet !

Are you thinking about changing the Leaf ? :-)

Hand on heart the IoniQ was the first car I returned and regretted for not been able to drive it home straight away... I did say to the salesman that the Ioniq is genuinely the best EV currently on the market considering the whole package.
I was given 3 payment options but none of them fits my budget, so unfortunately I could not switch from my Leaf to Hyundai. The GMFV is very low, under 6k, I was offered only €11500 for my Leaf and with 4k deposit the monthly payment was nearly twice what I currently pay for my Leaf. So I will stick with it, quiet possible run it to the ground and replace the ICE with a second EV when the time/money/offer is right ...

Again, have to give yo Hyundai - they have on sale a great car.

KCross

peposhi wrote: »

The GMFV is very low, under 6k, I was offered only €11500 for my Leaf and with 4k deposit the monthly payment was nearly twice what I currently pay for my Leaf.

Didnt others say that that is roughly the GMFV being offered for the Leaf now as well so its not just a Leaf thing?

They are trying to make sure that people have equity after the 3yrs but the obvious downside is that the monthly payment goes up accordingly.

As a matter of interest... what year and model is your Leaf.... just want to understand how bad the €11500 offer was?

Yes they are trying to make sure people have cash at the end, there's no way the Leaf will be worth as little as 5K after 3 years.

So what's happening is that the dealers are ensuring that you take the risk if the worst happens but the GFMV is so low now that you might be as well off getting regular finance because even if you do have more at the end you're paying for that anyway over the 3 years with the higher monthly payments so at the end you say "great I got some cash " but you're paying for that with the higher monthly payments.

Correct me if I'm wrong but that's how I see it.

peposhi

peposhi wrote: »

Hand on heart the IoniQ was the first car I returned and regretted for not been able to drive it home straight away... I did say to the salesman that the Ioniq is genuinely the best EV currently on the market considering the whole package.
I was given 3 payment options but none of them fits my budget, so unfortunately I could not switch from my Leaf to Hyundai. The GMFV is very low, under 6k, I was offered only €11500 for my Leaf and with 4k deposit the monthly payment was nearly twice what I currently pay for my Leaf. So I will stick with it, quiet possible run it to the ground and replace the ICE with a second EV when the time/money/offer is right ...

Again, have to give yo Hyundai - they have on sale a great car.

Yes you're correct, if the numbers don't add up it makes a lot more sense to keep the Leaf.

Yes the Ioniq is a great car but lets not forget the 40 Kwh Zoe coming soon. It will make it the longest range affordable EV in Ireland.

positron

I get the feel that Zoe isn't really comparable to Ioniq or Leaf.

Bjorn posted this new video of his long winter test of Zoe (older version) and he didn't have many nice things to say about it by the end of it all. I got the vibe that it's strictly a city car.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SN_CWtjPGNo

I can't really watch that video but I did see a temp of -18 Deg C. Hardly a good indicator for an Irish climate.

I think anyone who likes a small car and is looking to change to EV then the 40 Kwh Zoe is worth serious consideration. The Electric motor in the Zoe even though not particularly powerful is leaps and bounds better than any engine you'd find in an Irish Clio for instance.

40 Kwh, 200-280 kms range that's hard driving to easy. Somewhere like 240-250 kms for normal driving, that's not bad at all. Then 22 Kw charging at SCPs.

peposhi

KCross wrote: »

Didnt others say that that is roughly the GMFV being offered for the Leaf now as well so its not just a Leaf thing?

They are trying to make sure that people have equity after the 3yrs but the obvious downside is that the monthly payment goes up accordingly.

As a matter of interest... what year and model is your Leaf.... just want to understand how bad the €11500 offer was?

151, KCross

The funny thing is the salesman went on carzone.ie right in front of me, checked average sale price there, went to his boss and came back with the €11.5k figure. And clearly said later on there's nothing he could do on the Leaf price.
I did not take is as an insult as others would though - I totally understand that the dealer and the bank always win, no matter what.
A couple of months back when I was charging at Belgard Nissan I asked the EV sales guy how much would he offer for my Leaf. He said he would not be interested in it so early in the PCP (20 months back then) and threw a €12k figure just to have something to say...
In other words - depreciation is high but who cares my son can we'll have the Leaf for his 18th birthday - it would be a classic car by then LOL

unkel

If you're serious, try sell the Leaf privately, get a €50 banger and use it for the €4k scrappage off the Ioniq?

Donnelly117

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I can't really watch that video but I did see a temp of -18 Deg C. Hardly a good indicator for an Irish climate.

I think anyone who likes a small car and is looking to change to EV then the 40 Kwh Zoe is worth serious consideration. The Electric motor in the Zoe even though not particularly powerful is leaps and bounds better than any engine you'd find in an Irish Clio for instance.

40 Kwh, 200-280 kms range that's hard driving to easy. Somewhere like 240-250 kms for normal driving, that's not bad at all. Then 22 Kw charging at SCPs.

Did they drop the 43kW charger that was available on the first revision? That seemed like a cool feature and would nearly eliminate the need to join the madness which seems to ensue at fast chargers...
Can a zoe old or new use DC chargers?
I see the UK is dropping the battery lease only option so hopefully they'll follow suit here...

isnottheword

Donnelly117 wrote: »

I see the UK is dropping the battery lease only option so hopefully they'll follow suit here...

Are they going to drop it in its entirety or run it alongside the ability to buy outright (as they are doing right now)?

Donnelly117

Donnelly117 wrote: »

Did they drop the 43kW charger that was available on the first revision? That seemed like a cool feature and would nearly eliminate the need to join the madness which seems to ensue at fast chargers...
Can a zoe old or new use DC chargers?
I see the UK is dropping the battery lease only option so hopefully they'll follow suit here...

They have two different motor options, both offer 89 HP but one is "more efficient" and this more efficient model eliminates the 44 Kw charger for 22 Kw only. And if they did this for a tiny efficiency gain then they're just mad !

Anyway both options are there, I just hope it's explained to customers.

I can't remember the code names for the different charger/motors.

They have a 75 Hp option now too as mad as that sounds in a heavy car but that's Renault for you will offer less power before they offer more. I haven't seen it on the options list yet, hopefully it won't.....

There is really no need to make low power electrics because electricity is very cheap, the need might be there for ICE's due to the high cost of fuel but not in an EV , I din't like this one option for all.

grogi

Deleted User wrote: »

They have two different motor options, both offer 89 HP but one is "more efficient" and this more efficient model eliminates the 44 Kw charger for 22 Kw only. And if they did this for a tiny efficiency gain then they're just mad !.

It would seem Renault keeps playing stupid... That is the most rubbish explanation I have ever heart. They did that solely to cut cost. Weight loose from 22 kW charger would be absolutely minimal, kilogram maybe?

The less powerful motor might slim the car a few kilograms all right, but the efficency gains are nowhere close the efficiency differences in ICE as you pointed out.

And it's kW, not Kw...

grogi

grogi wrote: »

It would seem Renault keeps playing stupid... That is the most rubbish explanation I have ever heart. They did that solely to cut cost. Weight loose from 22 kW charger would be absolutely minimal, kilogram maybe?

The less powerful motor might slim the car a few kilograms all right, but the efficency gains are nowhere close the efficiency differences in ICE as you pointed out.

The problem I have is that they don't need to eliminate 44 K"W" charging for a useless efficiency gain. Faster charging is more practical, the range gained would be meaningless.

grogi wrote: »

And it's kW, not Kw...

I don't really care.

unkel

positron wrote: »

I get the feel that Zoe isn't really comparable to Ioniq or Leaf.

Bjorn posted this new video of his long winter test of Zoe (older version) and he didn't have many nice things to say about it by the end of it all. I got the vibe that it's strictly a city car.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SN_CWtjPGNo

Just saw some of that and the average consumption said 200-280Wh/km which is pretty brutal, even in those circumstances (snow, ice, temps well under 0C). In similar circumstances, in a very similar trip, he did about 160-190Wh/km in the Ioniq, which is a far bigger, faster and more powerful car. Also the average consumption in the Zoe (not just for the trip, probably a setting that wasn't reset recently) showed 21kW /100km, so a range of just 100km...

My average in the Leaf was about 17.9 Kwh/100 kms now for 2016 and that's driving pretty hard, some trips can be 20-21 Kwh/100 kms driving 120 odd Kph.

What's going on in that video above I do not know. Certainly Zoe owners here don't really report efficiency that low even though the majority of Zoe owners probably drive easier than I do.

bk

Deleted User wrote: »

They have two different motor options, both offer 89 HP but one is "more efficient" and this more efficient model eliminates the 44 Kw charger for 22 Kw only. And if they did this for a tiny efficiency gain then they're just mad !

They didn't.

The 43Kw version has an electric motor built by Continental

The 22Kw version has an electric motor built by Renault themselves.

I believe in the originally Zoe they were mostly using Continental electrical parts, but now have developed their own and are pushing that as I assume it is cheaper using their own in-house ones then buying third party.

aliveandkicking

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes you're correct, if the numbers don't add up it makes a lot more sense to keep the Leaf.

Yes the Ioniq is a great car but lets not forget the 40 Kwh Zoe coming soon. It will make it the longest range affordable EV in Ireland.

I was reading on speakev that there isn'ta lot in it regarding the range of the 28 kwh Ioniq and 40 kwh Zoe. It seems that despite the Zoe having a 40% larger battery the Ioniq is nearly 40% more efficient/aerodynamic so range is similar in both cars.

https://speakev.com/threads/hyundai-ioniq.14982/page-16

bk

bk wrote: »

They didn't.

Renault are offering the motor so who cares who built it "they still have it"

grogi

Deleted User wrote: »

The problem I have is that they don't need to eliminate 44 K"W" charging for a useless efficiency gain. Faster charging is more practical, the range gained would be meaningless.

I might have not been clear about that - but that was my point. I cannot imagine what efficiency gain that would be.

I don't really care.

You're not the only one...

For power kW!! not KW, kw, Kw. The prefix for one thousand - kilo - is small k, the power unit is watt, capital W. So kW. I could accept hp, bhp or PS.

For battery capacity - kWh or MJ...

When talking about mileage, although technically more correct than kkm, I am not going to force the people to say Mm though... :]

That's crazy if the Zoe works out it only has 200 Kms range on 40 Kwh, have to say I can't believe it.

grogi

Deleted User wrote: »

That's crazy if the Zoe works out it only has 200 Kms range on 40 Kwh, have to say I can't believe it.

No way I would say. This must be the fallout from VW scandal, they don't want to promise something that might, in very rare conditions, be not delivered.

Realistically speaking, 15 kWh/100 km and 38 kWh of usable capacity => 250 km of range...

ewj1978

Deleted User wrote: »

I can't remember the code names for the different charger/motors.

Zoe R90 : 22kW charger but more efficient engine (about 15-20 kms more efficent)

Zoe Q90: 43kW charger but less efficient engine

I believe its to do with the engine manufacturer.

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

What's going on in that video above I do not know.

You have to appreciate the environment is pretty brutal and far harsher than it ever will be here or in the UK. Snow, ice, freezing rain, average temps of about -5C. Heating and lights permanently on, dunno about the Zoe - didn't watch enough of it - but he was driving the Ioniq on studded tyres. Which are terrible for efficiency

It does seem that gen 2 cars like the Leaf and old Zoe suffer badly in cold weather (with lights and heat on). Perhaps the Ioniq suffers relatively less in bad circumstances.

Villain

69 Ioniq sold in January based on latest figures.

From FB group: 168 EVs sold. This is in progress so yay! 95 Leaf, 69 Ioniq, 2 Zoés, 1 Egolf and 1 i3. Also note 47 PHEVs and only 29 Hybrid Ioniqs.

kave2

Anyone knows whats the current situation with Ioniq stock? Specifically the blue one?

bk

Villain wrote: »

69 Ioniq sold in January based on latest figures.

From FB group: 168 EVs sold. This is in progress so yay! 95 Leaf, 69 Ioniq, 2 Zoés, 1 Egolf and 1 i3. Also note 47 PHEVs and only 29 Hybrid Ioniqs.

I have to say, while Hyundai have created a great car with the Ioniq, it really feels like they missed an opportunity to be a real contender with Tesla.

Had they created the Ioniq as a pure EV, rather then a 3-in-1, they could have created it with underfloor batteries and a more optimised EV design and would thus be able to have 30, 40, 50 and maybe even 60kWh versions available today and I think it would sell like hotcakes depending on pricing. It could have given Tesla a real run for their money and would have gotten Hyundai lots of great press and mindshare.

Instead they were conservative and tried to play is "safe" with the comprised 3-in-1 design and I think they are in for a surprise that the hybrids aren't going to sell anywhere close to how they thought they would.

I just hope they don't take the wrong message from this, that all EV's sell bad, rather taking the message that they just didn't go the whole way and create a truly revolutionary BEV.

I have to say I'm really enjoying reading peoples experiences of the Ioniq. It feels like we are getting a great preview of what the Model 3 will be like.

The Ioniq has great energy efficiency and I think we will see that repeated with the model 3 due to similar sleek design and similar low drag numbers. The model 3 though will have the advantage of different optional battery sizes.

I do wonder based on the numbers we are seeing with the Ioniq, could Tesla get away with just a 45kWh battery in their base model and still hit their 215 miles EPA figures. It seems very likely.

That's rather mad if the Ioniq is that efficient, I highly doubt the Ioniq will reach 250 kms in Summer though at even 100 Kph.

I really want to test drive it now.

I do wonder with the Ioniq be enough to encourage Irish people to change ? I highly doubt it. It might make some EV enthusiasts buy it over the Leaf/Zoe but I doubt sales will be much greater than last year. And if they are it will be interesting to see if the Ioniq is responsible.

I just hope there is something special coming from Nissan for when my lease is up.

bk

Deleted User wrote: »

I do wonder with the Ioniq be enough to encourage Irish people to change ? I highly doubt it. It might make some EV enthusiasts buy it over the Leaf/Zoe but I doubt sales will be much greater than last year. And if they are it will be interesting to see if the Ioniq is responsible.

No, unfortunately not, it needs to be breaking the 200 mile / 300+ km barrier to do that IMO. Hopefully an updated version with a 45 kWh battery will get us there. However it is very close IMO.

I think it has gotten so much right, good looks, normal car looks, lots of nice gadgets, accurate range numbers, very power efficient. It just needs that little bit larger battery.

Deleted User wrote: »

I just hope there is something special coming from Nissan for when my lease is up.

I think Nissan needs a whole new, redesigned BEV now.

I don't think them just sticking a 40kWh battery will be enough. Not when we have seen the much greater efficiency of cars like the Ioniq. To be honest, Nissans choice of a tall upright design, with horrible drag numbers for an EV looks like a very poor choice now.

I think Nissan will need to follow Hyundai's lead now, a "normal" sedan type car with low drag numbers, but hopefully as a pure EV.

Water John

Yes BK, the 200 mile/300 km is the tipping point IMO also. Maybe that's because I live in Cork and want the Dublin trip without stopping as my benchmark. But I think it represents the distance for the vast majority of people.
That removes range as an issue.

Villain

Less than 0.5% of new car sales in January were EVs!

I'd take a larger car any day over a more efficient one to be honest, especially if it can charge faster, 65 Kw would be pretty decent. Bets the 24 Kwh leaf hands down and by 50% charge the 24 Kwh Leaf charges at 30-35 Kw. Nearly half that of the Ioniq, the 30 Kwh Leaf will charge at about 45 Kw until 85-90% a lto better but a long way off the Ioniq. It will be interesting to see how many FCP's in Ireland can provide the power. I do hope the ESB install 100 KW + chargers when they sort out what they're doing with the network.

I like the higher position of the Leaf to be honest.

Nissan can wait another year, I'd say they will announce the MK II in the Summer and available to order Q4 2017, I hope !

They could be making efficiency tweaks now they know how efficient the Ioniq is.

bk

Water John wrote: »

Yes BK, the 200 mile/300 km is the tipping point IMO also. Maybe that's because I live in Cork and want the Dublin trip without stopping as my benchmark. But I think it represents the distance for the vast majority of people.
That removes range as an issue.

Yup same here but in reverse.

I keep mentioning Dublin to Cork at normal motorway speeds without stopping to charge, but actually I think that is a pretty normal benchmark for most people. Not necessarily Cork - Dublin, but rather roughly the distnace and time it represents.

I think most people can drive for close to three hours on a motorway without stopping. More then 3 hours, some people can do it, but I think most people would be thinking of stopping for twenty minutes for a break, coffee, etc. around the 3 hour mark.

I think when you can drive for 3 hours or so without stopping and then stop for 30 minutes and get another 2 hours or so driving from that charge, then I think all range anxiety disappears for most people.

Water John

For me, that gives me Cork - Belfast in one pit stop.
With all the other advantages of an EV, that would be a no brainer.

listermint

Tbh I think you lads are outside the norm most people don't make those trips once a year if ever.

And those that do would have a second family car to such purpose.

The gen population isn't driving between coasts regularly.

Water John

Listermint, I agree with you to a degree. The EV car has to achieve a working position where it can normally do all the driving needed during a day and charge up at night, (though solar may change that).
It is quite easy to knock out 200/250 miles getting some things done, especially if you live in a rural area, in a day.
By extension an EV thus covers both regular days and the occasional longer trip. In fairness EV is nearly there.

Then the wider pop has little excuse except, fear of change, itself.

listermint

Water John wrote: »

Listermint, I agree with you to a degree. The EV car has to achieve a working position where it can normally do all the driving needed during a day and charge up at night, (though solar may change that).
It is quite easy to knock out 200/250 miles getting some things done, especially if you live in a rural area, in a day.
By extension an EV thus covers both regular days and the occasional longer trip. In fairness EV is nearly there.

Then the wider pop has little excuse except, fear of change, itself.

I'd be abundantly surprised if the majority of people do anywhere near 250 miles a day rural or otherwise. Tbf.

Like to see some stats for Ireland on that

zilog_jones

bk wrote: »

Had they created the Ioniq as a pure EV, rather then a 3-in-1, they could have created it with underfloor batteries and a more optimised EV design and would thus be able to have 30, 40, 50 and maybe even 60kWh versions available today and I think it would sell like hotcakes depending on pricing. It could have given Tesla a real run for their money and would have gotten Hyundai lots of great press and mindshare.

The R&D costs for making a bespoke BEV would have been a lot higher. That could well be a contributing factor as to why the Nissan Leaf has had such a long product lifecycle. I think the current cost of larger batteries is also a big factor right now. A 60 kWh battery could easily add €15-20k to the car - look at the Tesla Model S pricing for comparison.

Instead they were conservative and tried to play is "safe" with the comprised 3-in-1 design and I think they are in for a surprise that the hybrids aren't going to sell anywhere close to how they thought they would.

The hybrid Ioniq doesn't seem to be selling well now, but maybe that's due to lack of supply or awareness? TBH I didn't even know it was on sale here. However, 1,343 non-plugin hybrids were sold in January compared to 168 EVs - there is still a lot of interest in hybrids, and as long as there is still range anxiety and concerns about the public charging infrastructure there will be a market for these. Still a great alternative to diesels as well.

I also think getting over 300 km range would certainly change a lot of people's minds about EVs. The Ioniq is a significant step up, but still not quite there...