Hyundai Ioniq 28kWh

unkel

Though now that the Donald and Elon are pals, I guess a good few lefties will want their deposit back

unkel

unkel wrote: »

There's no doubt that the longer you wait in this EV game, the better car you're going to get. If you're going to wait that long (buying sometime in 2018), would you not aim for a Model 3 though instead of Ioniq / Leaf 2? It will be a lot more expensive, but it will also be a car that's a serious level up foremost in terms of range, but probably also in prestige / quality

There's no way the Model 3 will be available by next January.

I'd say it work out over 40 K with a decent spec and truth be told the Irish spec will probably be a bit low.

I'll wait to see what's around in 2018.

grogi

unkel wrote: »

Really? The Tesla website says "Production begins mid 2017.
Delivery estimate for new reservations is mid 2018 or later."

Yeah... Musk is known for promising very ambitious deadlines...

Flying the reconditioned Falcon9 booster was planned for June last year. ATM it is scheduled for March, but who knows? :]

unkel

Actually makes me feel a bit better about my own purchase that the Model 3 won't be around for another few years

For the sake of progress of EV, it can't come quick enough though. Tesla has done more for the positive perception of EV than any other make, but a few very expensive model S cars around is nowhere near enough to convince the general public.

boardzz

Deleted User wrote: »

There's no way the Model 3 will be available by next January.

I'd say it work out over 40 K with a decent spec and truth be told the Irish spec will probably be a bit low.

I'll wait to see what's around in 2018.

Irish spec? It's a worldwide standard vehicle.

listermint

bk wrote: »

If that is the case, why aren't people buying EV's like the Leaf so already? Because they already have more then enough range to do the Irish average daily commute of 17km

Yet EV's make up just 0.5% of car sales!

No the reality is most people do do at least one, if not a few, medium distance trips a year, weekends away in Galway, etc. Visit the granny, etc.

Even if they don't do it, they still want the capability of doing it. After all their crappy Diesel can already do it, why should they compromise?

The reality is when you tell most people that the real world range of the Leaf is about 100 miles, they burst out laughing at you and tell you there is no way their paying 25k for a car that can't go more then a 100 miles. You can tell them all you want about average daily commutes, but you can already see their eyes glaze over as they have lost all interest.

I could be wrong, but I do think that when you can tell them that you can easily do 200 miles and almost a full charge in 20 minutes, I think they will be a lot more interested.



Mostly aerodynamics. The Leaf, Zoe and i3 are all relatively upright, boxy cars, with pretty terrible aerodynamics, which is obviously bad for EV's

You have to wonder why they would choose to do that? It almost feels like they are traditional car makers who aren't really interested in making a real competitive and successful EV that god help them might actually outsell their more profitable Diesel cars!

Tesla takes a completely different approach, sleek, sporty and aerodynamic cars that result in low drag and thus much greater battery efficiency.

You are also seeing a bit of this From Hyundai with the Ioniq, but they also made other different trade offs that damage it's potential to be a great EV.

Quite simple.


They don't know about them.

Nothing more nothing less.its not about their distances the stats can't stack up that most people are driving coast to coast or even close.

People won't buy what they don't know it really is that simple. Coupled with the abysmal sales knowledge in the dealership networks here of EVs these guys are trained to push diesel or push the easiest sell to get commission...You can't blame them but they have as bad knowledge on these models as the average Joe on the street.

grogi

listermint wrote: »

People won't buy what they don't know it really is that simple. Coupled with the abysmal sales knowledge in the dealership networks here of EVs these guys are trained to push diesel or push the easiest sell to get commission...You can't blame them but they have as bad knowledge on these models as the average Joe on the street.

That's exactly what I am doing - blame the salesman. It is his job to know what he sells in the end.

boardzz

boardzz wrote: »

Irish spec? It's a worldwide standard vehicle.

That might not be the case when it arrives in Ireland ? cars have been known to get less kit here.

They could remove kit to keep the base price tot hat magic 35-40 K ?

bk

listermint wrote: »

They don't know about them.

It really isn't the case. I tell lots of people about EV's. First they look very interested (low running costs, great Torque, etc.), but then they ask about the range, when I tell them I can see their interest die in their eyes straight away.

People just don't want to compromise and frankly it is naive for EV fans to expect them to compromise.

Tesla has it right, EV's need big range and fast charging to make them acceptable to the general public.

KCross

bk wrote: »

It really isn't the case. I tell lots of people about EV's. First they look very interested (low running costs, great Torque, etc.), but then they ask about the range, when I tell them I can see their interest die in their eyes straight away.

Are these the same people you tell that it normally takes 5hrs to drive from Cork to Dublin in an EV!
Maybe we need someone else to talk to your friends!

bk wrote: »

People just don't want to compromise and frankly it is naive for EV fans to expect them to compromise.

Tesla has it right, EV's need big range and fast charging to make them acceptable to the general public.

I agree.

positron

There is no denying the fact that fossil files have approximately 13 times more energy density compared to current battery technology for the volume of fuel/cell, and not to mention you can refuel fossil fuel in minutes compared to battery in 30-60 minutes that too with limited infrastructure at the moment. Its true that turning fossil fuel into forward momentum takes more components, maintenance and efficiencies lost etc but still its many times more 'capable' than current battery technology.

I read recently that EU has agreed on the wireless charging specifications / standard, hopefully that technology will pick up speed and we could perhaps have a charging strip installed into the drive way or parking spaces rather than messing around with cables, connectors etc. Not sure if wireless charging is really feasible for EVs but even if it is, its probably too late for next vesion of Ioniq.

grogi

bk wrote: »

Tesla has it right, EV's need big range and fast charging to make them acceptable to the general public.

I don't see Teslas driving all over the place. Why? Because at Tesla's price point all the financial benefits evaporate... Range costs. A lot.

On the other hand we are dealing with human being and people have their limitation. It is difficult to realise how much range one really needs on daily basis.

So until the range is cheap (sooner or later) or people change (never) we will not see the massive adoption. Right now we're not there yet...

KCross

listermint wrote: »

Quite simple.


They don't know about them.

Nothing more nothing less.its not about their distances the stats can't stack up that most people are driving coast to coast or even close.

People won't buy what they don't know it really is that simple. Coupled with the abysmal sales knowledge in the dealership networks here of EVs these guys are trained to push diesel or push the easiest sell to get commission...You can't blame them but they have as bad knowledge on these models as the average Joe on the street.

To be fair, I dont think its that simple.

Its a whole range of issues....

Fear of the unknown. Education is required
Depreciation
Range
Lack of choice
Manufacturers not pushing it because they dont want to cannibalise their ICE sales
Government policy. This is a big one.
Ability to install an EVSE (apartments etc)

Clearly the current EV's are ideally suited to a particular set of circumstances and the uptake should be much much better even with todays EV's but they still arent good enough for mass adoption.

Current EV's are mainly suited to 2 car households where the daily commute is below 100km. The 2nd car does the long journeys. If you fit this cohort its a no brainer and the savings are quite significant with little or no downsides.

If you are a one car household its alot more complicated. Even if you drive less than 100km a day, what do you do when you want to go home at weekends... people want to do that without stopping.

grogi

KCross wrote: »

If you are a one car household its alot more complicated. Even if you drive less than 100km a day, what do you do when you want to go home at weekends... people want to do that without stopping.

The essential question - how often? I might, from time to time, need to move a fridge... But I am not driving a pickup-truck for that occasion.

Occasional trips like that can be done with either a rental vehicle. Even better if the manufacturer had a program where you could borrow an ICE for a few days when you really need range. AFAIK BMW does something like that with i3...

listermint

KCross wrote: »

Are these the same people you tell that it normally takes 5hrs to drive from Cork to Dublin in an EV!
Maybe we need someone else to talk to your friends!



I agree.

Tell who? People in cork that work in Dublin?

I bet if you asked these people what their weekly mileage is they haven't a breeze


Range at this point in time is a pony of an excuse I'm sorry but majority mileage is nowhere near yours

KCross

grogi wrote: »

The essential question - how often? I might, from time to time, need to move a fridge... But I am not driving a pickup-truck for that occasion.

Occasional trips like that can be done with either a rental vehicle. Even better if the manufacturer had a program where you could borrow an ICE for a few days when you really need range. AFAIK BMW does something like that with i3...

Nissan do that in the UK, I think.
But like bk says... thats a compromise people are not willing to make.

What about when I decide to take a long trip at short notice.... how do I deal with that. Hiring a car is not a serious alternative. I wouldnt do it and I dont think "we" should expect the wider population to do it.

To answer your "how often" question.... Im sure there are 10's of thousands of people who travel home at weekends. It could be every weekend for lots of people. I dont have stats on it, obviously.

The thing is, the argument wont be won on stats or telling people they are wrong.... perception is reality and they wont be mass EV adoption until the range and the government policy are in place.

listermint

It stands to reason from the posts here most of you guys have rural origins.based on what you've said so far.

I agree ev won't fit.but the majority of the country doesn't live in rural ireland or travel there regularly.and if they do most have 2 cars.

The guts of the current problem is education and bad sales pushes.i don't see any other issue.

listermint

KCross wrote: »

Nissan do that in the UK, I think.
But like bk says... thats a compromise people are not willing to make.

What about when I decide to take a long trip at short notice.... how do I deal with that. Hiring a car is not a serious alternative. I wouldnt do it and I dont think "we" should expect the wider population to do it.

To answer your "how often" question.... Im sure there are 10's of thousands of people who travel home at weekends. It could be every weekend for lots of people. I dont have stats on it, obviously.

The thing is, the argument wont be won on stats or telling people they are wrong.... perception is reality and they wont be mass EV adoption until the range and the government policy are in place.

Home is the city people live in for most people.you pair are coming at this from a perspective that everyone came up to Leinster from everywhere else.

As stated average mileage is not yours.

KCross

listermint wrote: »

Tell who? People in cork that work in Dublin?

I bet if you asked these people what their weekly mileage is they haven't a breeze


Range at this point in time is a pony of an excuse I'm sorry but majority mileage is nowhere near yours

Sorry, that was an in-joke with bk from another thread. Disregard it.
He was saying that he wasnt surprised it took someone 5hrs to travel from Cork-Dublin in an EV(they were driving at 80kmh! :rolleyes:).

I've done the trip and it takes less than 3.5hrs and I was just making a joke about it here.


My daily commute is less than 100km so the Leaf does me fine.

KCross

listermint wrote: »

Home is the city people live in for most people.you pair are coming at this from a perspective that everyone came up to Leinster from everywhere else.

As stated average mileage is not yours.

Not at all. Just to be clear, I drive an EV. Getting the impression you think Im anti EV.... nothing of the sort.

Im just trying to explain why I, and others, believe EV uptake has been abysmally slow.

If it is was a pure education thing the government would have put a few ads on the TV..... its way too simplistic to say educate the population and we'll have mass EV adoption.

I agree that loads of city dwellers should be driving EV right now and education would fix some of those but thats not going to give you mass adoption.

Its a combination of all the things I listed.... range, government policy, education etc etc.

josip

I think a substantial percentage of the demographic that would be suited to an EV, less than 100km trips/day, don't need a lot of boot space, etc, are elderly drivers who would be more hesitant about trying a new, relatively unproven technology than younger drivers.
Not all, and there are probably some elderly EV drivers on here, but older people are statistically more reluctant to change than younger people.

They know how to drive a manual ICE. They know how to refuel. They would have to have a compelling argument to switch and unless the sales person was actively pushing an EV it's unlikely to happen.

If the state gave a €1,000 commission to the sales people for every new EV they sold, we'd have half the national fleet converted to EV within 5 years.

bk

KCross wrote: »

I've done the trip and it takes less than 3.5hrs and I was just making a joke about it here.

Ah, we are up to 3.5 hours now!

It was originally 3 hours, then 3.25, now 3.5!

Even 3.5 hours is still at least an hour more then for instance my sister does every weekend. Telling her it is going to take even an hour longer, or that she has to rent a different car every weekend and she will rightfully laugh you out of the place.

And BTW it absolutely did take another poster 5 hours to do the journey in their leaf.

KCross

bk wrote: »

Ah, we are up to 3.5 hours now!

It was originally 3 hours, then 3.25, now 3.5!

Even 3.5 hours is still at least an hour more then for instance my sister does every weekend. Telling her it is going to take even an hour longer, or that she has to rent a different car every weekend and she will rightfully laugh you out of the place.

And BTW it absolutely did take another poster 5 hours to do the journey in their leaf.

You're not reading my posts bk!
I said "less than 3.5hrs" in the other thread and thats what I said here as well.

And I know the other person took 5hrs... they drove at 80kmh ona motorway!!!... come on, give me a break! :rolleyes:

Lets leave that wound heal now!

Water John

I know some here don't give much heed to the environmental benefits of EV, but this piece from Imperial College shows that a combination of solar and EV technologies could halt growth in fossil fuels in 3 years.
That's an incentive to aim for, sorry DT.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/feb/02/electric-cars-cheap-solar-power-halt-fossil-fuel-growth-2020

listermint

KCross wrote: »

Not at all. Just to be clear, I drive an EV. Getting the impression you think Im anti EV.... nothing of the sort.

Im just trying to explain why I, and others, believe EV uptake has been abysmally slow.

If it is was a pure education thing the government would have put a few ads on the TV..... its way too simplistic to say educate the population and we'll have mass EV adoption.

I agree that loads of city dwellers should be driving EV right now and education would fix some of those but thats not going to give you mass adoption.

Its a combination of all the things I listed.... range, government policy, education etc etc.

No I fully understand your pro.

I am just picking holes in the range argument for the majority of road users.

I firmly believe it's ignorance apathy and bad sales. I think it would swiftly change with government policy literally over night you'd have sales experts in all the dealerships.

Water John

No, I believe the 200 mile/ 300 km range is important in both reality and perception.
It will kill range as an anxiety, whether real or imagined.

Soarer

So how much of the last 10 pages has actually been about the Ioniq?

KCross

If we only had a moderator... Oh wait!

listermint

Tis a fine looking vehicle 😀

Water John

We're taking and talking the scenic route.

Soarer

Water John wrote: »

We're taking and talking the scenic route.

Yeah, but any non-EV owner, interested in the Ioniq, isn't gonna be helped with all the range comparisons in here.

Why not start another thread about that, and leave this thread to the Ioniq?

cros13

KCross wrote: »

If we only had a moderator... Oh wait!

I was getting to it....

Back on track now lads....

What have people seen the Ioniq advertised for in the dealerships?
I was dismayed to see a few places with Ioniq EVs on the forecourt with the pre-credit pre-grant price on the window.
It's like they're deliberately trying to sink it.

unkel

Yeah it's ridiculous. Plenty of dealers are clowns, but there are some good ones too.

650Ginge

unkel wrote: »

Yeah it's ridiculous. Plenty of dealers are clowns, but there are some good ones too.

Let's name a good one. Because my local one is the clown type.

peposhi

650Ginge wrote: »

Let's name a good one. Because my local one is the clown type.

Brian Doolan in Fitzpatrick's Hyundai Kildare - looked after my extended test drive. No messing, puffing - all straight forward. He actually got the test car from Naas and drove it to Kildare for me.

positron

Hyundai dealer in Drogheda have an Ioniq but it's not registered, so they can't provide extended test drives. Same story with the Hyundai dealer in Swords. It's a bit frustrating.

axe2grind

Dealer in Rathdrum seem reasonable. One of the employees uses it for his commute so he is personally building up knowledge of the car and is educating the rest of the staff and the car is available for extended test drives. I got offered 24hr test (using my own insurance) but declined as the car does not suit my needs.

unkel

positron wrote: »

Hyundai dealer in Drogheda have an Ioniq but it's not registered, so they can't provide extended test drives. Same story with the Hyundai dealer in Swords. It's a bit frustrating.

EP Mooney (Longmile Road), the biggest Hyundai dealer in Ireland, does have an Ioniq EV registered that you can book for 24 hour test drives.

unkel

650Ginge wrote: »

Let's name a good one. Because my local one is the clown type.

Depends on what you want: the best info / advice, booking a 24 test drive or if you are ready to buy the car and just want the best deal you can get from a no-nonsense salesman?

macnab

The price should be around €28,500 after grant and VRT deductions. But i have seen dealers advertise the Ioniq at €26,394 including a €4000 scrappage allowance?? that puts the post reduction price back up to €30,394. Am i correct in thinking that the Ioniq should qualify for a €5000 grant and €2500 VRT reduction?

unkel

No. The RRP after all subsidies and the €4k Hyundai scrappage offer is €24,495 (see Hyundai.ie)

Plus delivery charges and optional extras.

Soarer

macnab wrote: »

The price should be around €28,500 after grant and VRT deductions. But i have seen dealers advertise the Ioniq at €26,394 including a €4000 scrappage allowance?? that puts the post reduction price back up to €30,394. Am i correct in thinking that the Ioniq should qualify for a €5000 grant and €2500 VRT reduction?

That advertised price is probably including delivery and metallic paint. Which is fair enough really, 'cause there's nothing more annoying than seeing a price advertised, and there's an additional €2k that needs to be paid before you get the car!

unkel

Soarer wrote: »

there's nothing more annoying than seeing a price advertised, and there's an additional €2k that needs to be paid before you get the car!

But you can negotiate a lot of that to go away

goz83

unkel wrote: »

No. The RRP after all subsidies and the €4k Hyundai scrappage offer is €24,495 (see Hyundai.ie)

Plus delivery charges and optional extras.

What's the best price one might get if handing over a 10-15 year old car (with tax, nct and driving) and buying the Ioniq straight out?

Or failing that...the best deal (extras) one might expect to get at the €24,495 price point after handing in an old car?

I'm used to haggling on second hand yokes but have never bought a brand new car, so very curious.

grogi

goz83 wrote: »

What's the best price one might get if handing over a 10-15 year old car (with tax, nct and driving) and buying the Ioniq straight out?

Or failing that...the best deal (extras) one might expect to get at the €24,495 price point after handing in an old car?

I'm used to haggling on second hand yokes but have never bought a brand new car, so very curious.

€24,495.

josip

goz83 wrote: »

What's the best price one might get if handing over a 10-15 year old car (with tax, nct and driving) and buying the Ioniq straight out?

Or failing that...the best deal (extras) one might expect to get at the €24,495 price point after handing in an old car?

I'm used to haggling on second hand yokes but have never bought a brand new car, so very curious.

Make sure you get the car mats and a full tank thrown in.

goz83

grogi wrote: »

€24,495.

Thanks, but did you have to go into such detail?

josip wrote: »

Make sure you get the car mats and a full tank thrown in.

Full tank of booze in the boot. Got it

unkel

josip wrote: »

and a full tank thrown in.

That's what I told people after I bought the car

unkel

goz83 wrote: »

What's the best price one might get if handing over a 10-15 year old car (with tax, nct and driving) and buying the Ioniq straight out?

Or failing that...the best deal (extras) one might expect to get at the €24,495 price point after handing in an old car?

You'll get the €4k scrappage for your car. So then you pay €24,495 plus delivery charges + extras minus what you can negotiate off. Because of the €4000 scrappage, there obviously isn't as much room to negotiate anymore as with other cars, so we are not talking thousands here.

cros13

They have some weathertech style fitting bootliners and mats available:

http://accessories.hyundai.co.uk/ioniq-boot-liner