Hyundai Ioniq 28kWh

unkel

DrPhilG wrote: »

SCPs should be cinemas, shopping centres etc where you are going to be away for a few hours anyway.

What's the point charging for 2 hours though. And gaining what, 6.6kWh in a 3.3kW charger Nissan Leaf? Like €0.50 saving compared to home charging for your efforts?

If it came with free parking, it would be a different story of course!

@mad_lad - I can see the attraction for a Zoe owner alright, but we hardly should have the infrastructure for one make / model car, should we? CCS (and a few CHAdeMO for the legacy Leafs ) all along the national route network, one every 30-40km will do. Not at supermarkets, in town centres or any of that nonsense

BTW averaging 13.3-14 Kwh/100 kms in the Leaf lately. :-)

unkel

Miss daisy is a racing driver compared to you

n97 mini

unkel wrote: »

People use it because it is there. Micky Mouse system though, should never have been rolled out. The only not at home, not at destination charge we need is a fast one. Several 200-300kW, multiple bay stations, we only need a few of them in Ireland on the main motorways

While I agree that more FCPs are needed, SCPs in places like train station car parks and shopping centres are very useful. These are places poeple go anyway.

As there is no AC-DC conversion in the SCPs, and they're relatively simple devices in comparison, I'd imagine a triple standard FCP costs 10x more.

n97 mini

unkel wrote: »

What's the point charging for 2 hours though. And gaining what, 6.6kWh in a 3.3kW charger Nissan Leaf? Like €0.50 saving compared to home charging for your efforts?

Because it may make the difference between being able to get home or not. 2 hours is still 30% top up in a slow charging car like Fluence, early Leaf etc. It's not about saving money. (And pieces of shít like the Fleunce have no fast charge capability at all!)

I brought my son to the cinema recently. Plugged in outside at 22%, came out 1hr40 later with the car at 91% (yes the maths don't quite work, but I believe the SOC indicated isn't the true SOC anyway). No need to stop at the FCP on our (long) way home as a result.

unkel

unkel wrote: »

Miss daisy is a racing driver compared to you

Na not really just taking my time and not driving at 120-130 Kph on motorways !

unkel

unkel wrote: »

What's the point charging for 2 hours though. And gaining what, 6.6kWh in a 3.3kW charger Nissan Leaf? Like €0.50 saving compared to home charging for your efforts?

If it came with free parking, it would be a different story of course!

@mad_lad - I can see the attraction for a Zoe owner alright, but we hardly should have the infrastructure for one make / model car, should we? CCS (and a few CHAdeMO for the legacy Leafs ) all along the national route network, one every 30-40km will do. Not at supermarkets, in town centres or any of that nonsense

The AC Network isn't catered for one make/model. Any EV can avail of the AC network and it's the fault of the manufacturers that they have not installed chargers more powerful than about 7 Kw, not the ESB.

At the time only Renault and Nissan were bothered releasing electrics, but they did tell lies to the ESB when they they insisted they'd have a lot more electrics that could charge at 22 KW on AC.

Not everyone needs 45-300 Kw DC charging all the time........

The AC network is a bloody good one and it's the fault of the manufacturers that it's not used nearly to it's full potential.

AC charge points are a lot cheaper too.

Use the AC network Unkel before you dismiss it because I guarantee fast charging will get old fast no matter how fast the car charges you'll still be frustrated with other EV owners hogging the chargers.

Remember the AC and DC network will be important in the future for those who can't charge at home and we won't have nearly enough and it would be a mistake for the ESB to completely abandon new AC installations.

Fiery mutant

Looking for some advice here guys. I'm going away for 10 days, and am wondering should I take out the 12v battery in the car, or will the battery saver system keep it in good condition?

cros13

Fiery mutant wrote: »

Looking for some advice here guys. I'm going away for 10 days, and am wondering should I take out the 12v battery in the car, or will the battery saver system keep it in good condition?

It'll be grand, leave it with something in the region of 50-80% indicated state of charge.

The big no nos are leaving the car full or nearly empty.

Fiery mutant

Why is leaving it full a big no no?

zilog_jones

Generally it's not good for Li-ion batteries to be left at full charge for a long time, but I wouldn't worry too much about 10 days. The owner's handbook should have some recommendations on the subject.

DrPhilG

unkel wrote: »

What's the point charging for 2 hours though. And gaining what, 6.6kWh in a 3.3kW charger Nissan Leaf? Like €0.50 saving compared to home charging for your efforts?

What "efforts"?

I doubt that many people plan trips to SCPs or makes any effort to fit them into their day. They are a convenience. Of course it's better if there are parking incentives but either way they are handy.

If I go to the cinema I'll charge at the SCP there, and in the 2/2.5 hours I'm in there I'll add about 70-75%.

They are a useful charger to have at the right location. Having them on street is daft though unless you happen to have relatives living near one and you visit them a lot!

Roughly 30-40% is the Ideal storage for the battery. Or about 3.8 Volts per cell.

Lithium batteries don't like to be stored at high voltages for extended periods it increases stresses on the battery. Too high and too low voltages are not ideal.

Water John

As the number EVs increases, slow public chargers become obselete. You'd need them all over the place to cater for a lot of cars.

If 10 EV owners go to the cinema or a show, where will they all plug in for 2 hours?

isnottheword

Water John wrote: »

As the number EVs increases, slow public chargers become obselete. You'd need them all over the place to cater for a lot of cars.

Is there any reason why they shouldn't be all over the place? By all accounts, they're all over the place in Oslo. The UK have them in supermarket car parks.

Water John

Well, I think we can all assume that future EV's will have larger batteries. More than likely coming from improvements in design as much as simply size.

Then EV's will have a 3/400km range. Based on that, the possible charging plan of the country should be designed.

Who would use public chargers?
How many fast charging stations and the number of points in each?
What contribution would slow public chargers make to the overall plan?

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

Not everyone needs 45-300 Kw DC charging all the time........

The AC network is a bloody good one

We need to look forward, not back. 22kW public AC charging might have been ok a few years back (even if most cars couldn't use it), we need 300-400kW DC chargers going forward

Chargers that charge up a 60KwH battery from 20-90% in not a lot more than 5 minutes. Just like people get petrol / diesel now. That's what we need at all national roads and motorways every 40km or so by 2022. Same as you would see petrol service stations on motorways everywhere else in the world - not like in Ireland where until recently there were no service stations on motorways :eek:

BTW 3rd fast charge done in 3 days just now. My 10 year old did the charging

isnottheword

Water John wrote: »

Well, I think we can all assume that future EV's will have larger batteries. More than likely coming from improvements in design as much as simply size.

Agreed.

Water John wrote: »

Who would use public chargers?
How many fast charging stations and the number of points in each?
What contribution would slow public chargers make to the overall plan?

We're not there yet. Right now, all those with EV's and those that will buy into 24-30kW EV's. Remember, not everyone buys in new.
With that, we're a few years away from where we need to be. In the meantime, the country has targets it has no hope of reaching - albeit that it should be doing all it can to reach them. The outcome is that we're a few years down the line until the vast majority are on 3-400KM range.

SCP's are probably low cost - anyone have any figures re. how much an scp costs? I'd imagine they can be deployed and re-deployed pretty easily. Right now, there are plenty that can use them. Otherwise, are all those apartment dwellers OR those that live street side (who can't exactly have cables trailing over the public footpath) to be disenfranchised?

Places where people spend a bit of time would be useful eg. shopping centres, supermarkets, cinemas, etc. They can be deployed in workplaces - where in the vast majority of cases, cars are sitting idol for 8 hours straight. If we find the need to move away from public scp charging, scp's could be re-deployed here. Larger employers are now involved in microgen and renewable gen - so it may make sense for them to offer multiple scp chargepoints.

22kW charge points are useful to those running the R. Zoe - or for Leaf's with 6.6kW on-board charging.

Lastly, it's recommended that people minimise FCP charging in order to protect the ongoing integrity of the battery.

I'm not saying that improvements are not required in terms of FCP network, the integrity of same and siting of same. That needs to happen too - and we need to move to a model whereby we have multiple chargepoints housed within the same location - in the same way as Tesla do it (and FastNed in the Netherlands). That said, for the moment, SCP's are still relevant on the public system.

unkel

isnottheword wrote: »

Lastly, it's recommended that people minimise FCP charging in order to protect the ongoing integrity of the battery.

I thought this was a bit of a myth that has long been dispelled?

And don't pretty much all EVs come with 8 year warranties on the battery? I wouldn't even hesitate fast charging my car 5 times a day if I felt like it. Aren't there loads of Leaf taxis that have been charging numerous times a day for years (without issue)?

unkel

Fiery mutant wrote: »

Looking for some advice here guys. I'm going away for 10 days, and am wondering should I take out the 12v battery in the car?

No need in the Ioniq. The car has a smart built-in feature that it checks the 12V battery once in a while if the car is not used and tops it up from the main battery if needed. This works up to 30 days iirc. Nice touch!

isnottheword

unkel wrote: »

I thought this was a bit of a myth that has long been dispelled?

And don't pretty much all EVs come with 8 year warranties on the battery? I wouldn't even hesitate fast charging my car 5 times a day if I felt like it. Aren't there loads of Leaf taxis that have been charging numerous times a day for years (without issue)?

I'm not sure if we have a definitive answer on this? If you have definitive proof of same, do you have a link? Despite that, it was just one of a range of reasons why we should still retain SCP's for the time being at least.

Water John

I have no problem retaining the SCPs. I just don't see the point of designing a national public charging plan that includes the installation of many more.
If shopping malls etc want to install them, fine.
I wouldn't waste public money on them. Maybe as you say, kerbside ones near apartments.

unkel

unkel wrote: »

We need to look forward, not back. 22kW public AC charging might have been ok a few years back (even if most cars couldn't use it), we need 300-400kW DC chargers going forward

Chargers that charge up a 60KwH battery from 20-90% in not a lot more than 5 minutes. Just like people get petrol / diesel now. That's what we need at all national roads and motorways every 40km or so by 2022. Same as you would see petrol service stations on motorways everywhere else in the world - not like in Ireland where until recently there were no service stations on motorways :eek:

BTW 3rd fast charge done in 3 days just now. My 10 year old did the charging

We need both AC and DC, when you don't need to charge in the shortest possible time , you'll use AC and when you do need to charge in the shortest possible time you'll use DC.

The AC network will remove the burden on the DC network and you won't have to bother of waiting at a DC point or waiting for someone else to finish.

unkel

I've no proof but aren't the warranties testament that batteries do not deteriorate as much as people thought 5-10 years ago? I believe in the US, the Ioniq comes with a lifetime battery warranty!!!

Edit - Water John took the words out of my mouth there. Couldn't agree more

isnottheword

Deleted User wrote: »

The AC network will remove the burden on the DC network and you won't have to bother of waiting at a DC point or waiting for someone else to finish.

From what I understand, the ESB have some difficulty getting sites for FCP's given that they don't always have the available power for them. With that, for the time being, SCP's should stay a part of the equation until they get past that (and whilst we wait for the full rollout and availability - to all - of EV's with 300-400KM range.

isnottheword

unkel wrote: »

I've no proof but aren't the warranties testament that batteries do not deteriorate as much as people thought 5-10 years ago? I believe in the US, the Ioniq comes with a lifetime battery warranty!!!

Yup - and I had heard likewise - but have never seen definitive data to support that. Anyways, it's only one in a whole spectrum of points to justify the retention of SCP as part of a mix of solutions right now.

unkel wrote: »

Edit - Water John took the words out of my mouth there. Couldn't agree more

I don't disagree with what he just stated. I'm not suggesting that they be primary part of the ongoing public charging strategy - but that they are a significant element of the public charging infrastructure in the short-medium term (alongside other options).

unkel

isnottheword wrote: »

From what I understand, the ESB have some difficulty getting sites for FCP's given that they don't always have the available power for them.

That should be government business to make it happen.

I'd rather the 200 million or so that Ireland pays every year in fines / penalties because we are dirty, be invested in a network of fast chargers.

isnottheword

unkel wrote: »

That should be government business to make it happen. I'd rather the 200 million or so that Ireland pays every year in fines / penalties because we are dirty, be invested in a network of fast chargers.

I don't want to appear as settling for second best but we have to acknowledge the country we live in. Ideally, I'd like Ireland to have a far more expansive network of FCP's. Ultimately, we will get what we need. It's what happens in between now and that happening that concerns me. Take the rollout of broadband in Ireland by comparison with other countries as a case in point. If people can't tolerate that, then they [ en-masse ] better see to better governance in Ireland generally (was that a unicorn that just flew past my window....).

unkel

isnottheword wrote: »

Ultimately, we will get what we need.

That's not the way this should work. It makes good business sense to invest (and increase incentives, basically whatever we can to promote EV ownership punish diesel ownership) so we don't have to pay fines anymore going forward.

€200 million a year goes a long way in this. We might have to invest that 5 years in a row, but we'll never pay the fine again after that, so the payback time of 5 years is an excellent investment. Making this figure up of course, but it would certainly be worthwhile to have this properly investigated

isnottheword

unkel wrote: »

That's not the way this should work.

I agree completely but lets be realistic - that's not where we're at. There are probably plenty of decent comparisons but broadband rollout I think is fitting. We are getting there - but we are lagging behind in getting there.

The current leaf battery for instance is a huge improvement over the original however, everything has an effect, time itself, how hard your drive, how hard you brake, how many times you charge, discharge, fast charging and also how hot on average the battery gets and for how long how long the battery stays at high charge or very low.

There are many things that can greatly improve battery life that might mitigate other factors, for instance, a small battery such as the Leaf/ioniq 24 Kwh or 30 Kwh will need much more cycling than a 60 Kwh, so cycling will have a huge impact , however, improving the battery cycle life will have a huge impact on the life of the battery, also, improving heat resistance and charge /discharge capability officially known as the "C rate".

It's assumed ( but highly likely) Nissan improved cycle life as well as heat resistance, however a 35 Kw cap on fast charging after 50% on the fast charger will help keep heat at bay.

The Ioniq charges at almost twice the rate as the Leaf means it's battery is designed to take a higher C rate of charge or higher current. However , a larger AH battery can naturally take a higher charge current.

unkel

unkel wrote: »

I've no proof but aren't the warranties testament that batteries do not deteriorate as much as people thought 5-10 years ago? I believe in the US, the Ioniq comes with a lifetime battery warranty!!!

Edit - Water John took the words out of my mouth there. Couldn't agree more

No batteries are much more reliable. Absolutely and the larger the Kwh the less you will need to baby it and battery loss won't be as noticeable as with a smaller Kwh battery.

woppers

While we're talking about charges, can someone please explain which EV's are compatible with each charging technology? I'm not 100% sure.

The 3 model's I'm wondering about are the Ioniq, Leaf and Zoe.

Also, which technologies are the newest? Which one's are are dying out? Are any of them being adopted by all car manufacturers?

I hear people mentioning 7kw, 11kw, and 22kw, 43kw, 50kw etc.

For example if the Ioniq plugs into an 22kw charger (I'm not even sure if this is possible) will it fully charge in 77 minutes?

The Ioniq is the main car I'm interested in really because the warranty is the only one that will suit my needs.

If I buy an Ioniq (if the waiting list isn't 8+ months) can I charge it at every charging point in the country?

Can the Ioniq avail of the rated kW on each charging point or does it restrict the speed of charging on some charging points?

isnottheword

isnottheword wrote: »

From what I understand, the ESB have some difficulty getting sites for FCP's given that they don't always have the available power for them. With that, for the time being, SCP's should stay a part of the equation until they get past that (and whilst we wait for the full rollout and availability - to all - of EV's with 300-400KM range.

The ESB can usually provide any power they want however the greatest challenge is getting site owners to agree to having a charger on site and the hard truth about that is that the majority of site owners refuse to have any charger on site.

There are no chargers on the N7 for a reason.........

Indeed, AC should be a part of the equation not because of the possibility of power unavailability but because AC is highly practical. We need lots of AC/DC points and then people can choose what best suits their needs. AC points are a hell of a lot cheaper too.

isnottheword

@woppers : The Leaf can charge at a slow charge point (SCP) at either 3.3kW or 6.6kW (it's limited depending upon which on-board charger the car has. 6.6kW on-board charging was an extra - so not too many Leafs with this option). Type 1 to Type 2 cable needed to do this.
It can charge at a fast chargepoint (FCP) via DC current - with Chademo standard (Chademo connector - originally, a japanese standard. CCS seems to be emerging as the european standard but Nissan were first to market).

The Zoe has the advantage of being able to charge up to 22kW at a SCP. Zoe uses a type 1 (male) to type 1 (female) charging cable.
It can also charge at a FCP via Fast AC.


The Iconiq uses the CCS standard for FCP charging - and can charge at a faster rate (so long as the FCP chargepoint supports that rate of charge) - as outlined in this thread. The only issue here is that the network of CCS chargepoints in Ireland is rubbish (see ecars chargepoint network map).
I'm not sure what it achieves on a SCP - had been meaning to ask. Can any of the Iconiq owners pitch in?

unkel

Ioniq does 7.2kW on AC and 70kW on DC

unkel

unkel wrote: »

Ioniq does 7.2kW on AC and 70kW on DC

Well officially the Ionig charges at 100 Kw on DC however this would be a very short time as the current would ramp down quickly. 65 Kw was the max I've seen on our triple headed DC points. Probably 60 Kw to the battery.

woppers

isnottheword wrote: »

@woppers : The Leaf can charge at a slow charge point (SCP) at either 3.3kW or 6.6kW (it's limited depending upon which on-board charger the car has. 6.6kW on-board charging was an extra - so not too many Leafs with this option). Type 1 to Type 2 cable needed to do this.
It can charge at a fast chargepoint (FCP) via DC current - with Chademo standard (Chademo connector - originally, a japanese standard. CCS seems to be emerging as the european standard but Nissan were first to market).

The Zoe has the advantage of being able to charge up to 22kW at a SCP. Zoe uses a type 1 (male) to type 1 (female) charging cable.
It can also charge at a FCP via Fast AC.


The Iconiq uses the CCS standard for FCP charging - and can charge at a faster rate (so long as the FCP chargepoint supports that rate of charge) - as outlined in this thread. The only issue here is that the network of CCS chargepoints in Ireland is rubbish (see ecars chargepoint network map).
I'm not sure what it achieves on a SCP - had been meaning to ask. Can any of the Iconiq owners pitch in?

Cheers isnottheword, that's very helpful information.

So if CCS is becoming the European standard are there plans for more of them to be installed?

Fiery mutant

unkel wrote: »

No need in the Ioniq. The car has a smart built-in feature that it checks the 12V battery once in a while if the car is not used and tops it up from the main battery if needed. This works up to 30 days iirc. Nice touch!

Yeah, just had to switch on the battery saver feature. Left the car at 62% so be interesting to see what I get back to.

woppers

woppers wrote: »

Cheers isnottheword, that's very helpful information.

So if CCS is becoming the European standard are there plans for more of them to be installed?

Unfortunately no, Our charging network is at least a year behind due to the ESB's refusal to install any more charge points until the CER make their decision as to whether the ESB can have complete control of the network or not.

woppers

unkel wrote: »

Ioniq does 7.2kW on AC and 70kW on DC

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Well officially the Ionig charges at 100 Kw on DC however this would be a very short time as the current would ramp down quickly. 65 Kw was the max I've seen on our triple headed DC points. Probably 60 Kw to the battery.

Also, thanks unkel and Mad_Lad.

I only began researching EV's 9 days ago abs there's a load of stuff to consider

unkel

Do a bit more research. Then watch Bjørn Nyland's 2 part review of the Ioniq. Then book one for a 24h testdrive and do your sums. Chances are you'll buy one the next day. I did

CCS is indeed becoming the European standard. It was supposed to be mandatory on all EVs from 2018 but that didn't happen yet. Japanese CHAdeMO charging is not going to disappear overnight but I doubt there will be any new ones installed anymore or any investments done to upgrade current ones. It's basically obsolete now.

Fiery mutant wrote: »

Yeah, just had to switch on the battery saver feature. Left the car at 62% so be interesting to see what I get back to.

Is that not on by default? I think I came across it there while messing with the menus.

woppers

unkel wrote: »

Do a bit more research. Then watch Bjørn Nyland's 2 part review of the Ioniq. Then book one for a 24h testdrive and do your sums. Chances are you'll buy one the next day. I did

How long did you have to wait from the day you decided to buy one and the delivery?

Fiery mutant

unkel wrote: »

Do a bit more research. Then watch Bjørn Nyland's 2 part review of the Ioniq. Then book one for a 24h testdrive and do your sums. Chances are you'll buy one the next day. I did

CCS is indeed becoming the European standard. It was supposed to be mandatory on all EVs from 2018 but that didn't happen yet. Japanese CHAdeMO charging is not going to disappear overnight but I doubt there will be any new ones installed anymore or any investments done to upgrade current ones. It's basically obsolete now.



Is that not on by default? I think I came across it there while messing with the menus.

Manual says it should be on, but i checked it wasn't ticked, so just had to tick the box and that's it.

Yes but before you watch reviews of hypermilers , (that's people who know how to get the best efficiency out of a car) be sure to test drive it yourself. I found that you'd get about 180 Kms at about 100-110 Kph. Perhaps 200 Km in Summer.

The greatest thing about the Ioniq is the fast charging times, it charges faster than all affordable electrics currently on the market in Ireland. It charges faster than any other EV officially available in Ireland at the moment, the Tesla Model S not being available to buy direct in Ireland at this time. (soon to change)

It's fast charging really makes a difference compared to the 24 Kwh leaf for instance , charges at 45 Kw to about 40% and by 50% down to about 35 Kw where the Ioniq charges at 65 Kw all the way to 80%.

unkel

Had a good play with the auto driving (active cruise + LKAS) today in the Ioniq on the motorway. Kids thought it was great fun / magic. It worked well, particularly the active cruise control. But I wouldn't trust it and you need to touch the steering wheel every 30 seconds anyway otherwise it will prompt you (beeping). Saw a clip the other day of a lad in the US who had two weights on springs hanging on both sides of the steering wheel, tricking the software into thinking someone was holding the wheel

Apparently all the hardware is already in the Ioniq for fully autonomous driving (autopilot) but Hyundai is still working on the software

Linky to vid of auto driving Ioniq EV

woppers

woppers wrote: »

How long did you have to wait from the day you decided to buy one and the delivery?

Do please also be aware the Leaf Gen II is due at the end of the year with deliveries anywhere from December to March 2018. ( my best guess )

It will possibly have much more range than the Ioniq.

unkel

woppers wrote: »

How long did you have to wait from the day you decided to buy one and the delivery?

Bought 19/01/2017 and got the car 07/04/2017 (but the date given when I bought was 20/02/2017)

Not looking good now though. If you bought today, the dealer will give you a delivery date of late October. Which is ridiculous, Hyundai can note cope with the demand. I doubt anyone would want to wait that long. But you might be able to get a cancellation, buy a demo, buy second hand, or buy from the UK

unkel

As for range, I'm using 13-14 kW, driving the car very, very hard, in sport mode only, lots of fast acceleration and with plenty of motorway driving (over the speed limit too). Which indicates a range of 200-215km

If you take it handy, have quite a bit of urban driving, not just all motorway and national roads, and don't go over 100km/h, you should have a range of 300km no problem

woppers

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yes but before you watch reviews of hypermilers , (that's people who know how to get the best efficiency out of a car) be sure to test drive it yourself. I found that you'd get about 180 Kms at about 100-110 Kph. Perhaps 200 Km in Summer.

The greatest thing about the Ioniq is the fast charging times, it charges faster than all affordable electrics currently on the market in Ireland. It charges faster than any other EV officially available in Ireland at the moment, the Tesla Model S not being available to buy direct in Ireland at this time. (soon to change)

It's fast charging really makes a difference compared to the 24 Kwh leaf for instance , charges at 45 Kw to about 40% and by 50% down to about 35 Kw where the Ioniq charges at 65 Kw all the way to 80%.

I'll be test driving one in a couple of weeks. About 65% of my commute will be motorway so I'll be interested in what the range will be after driving that stretch for 120kmh.