Hyundai Ioniq 28kWh

JohnnyJohnJohns

KCross wrote: »

You made @unkel spit into his tea with that €20k OTR price!

Whoops!

unkel

KCross wrote:

You made @unkel spit into his tea with that €20k OTR price!

Into my wine. On holiday in France. But yes, I almost did

That GBP20k Ioniq on auto trader in the UK not tempt anyone? Could be landed for a bit over EUR23k. By far the cheapest Ioniq in the UK or here.

unkel

Indeed. Two sizes bigger. Far more power, far better specced, a lot faster both in top speed and acceleration, so you'd think the Fiesta type EV would be about half the price of the Mondeo type EV? Eh no its actually more expensive.

Range of the Zoe is about the same as Ioniq on a very cold day, about 25% better on a perfect day...

BoatMad

unkel wrote: »

Indeed. Two sizes bigger. Far more power, far better specced, a lot faster both in top speed and acceleration, so you'd think the Fiesta type EV would be about half the price of the Mondeo type EV? Eh no its actually more expensive.

Range of the Zoe is about the same as Ioniq on a very cold day, about 25% better on a perfect day...

I think the key issue for early arrivers on the scene is price point versus value, Both Renault and Nissan , benefitted by being the only car in the class,

As that changes , competition will lower prices

The Model 3 will also in effect set an upper cap

interesting times ahead , The idea that a car company can get significantly more for a bigger battery is going to be severely tested.

Range in a Zoe does not fall 25% in winter

Water John

Putting in a bigger battery is not a big deal unless you have to alter systems eg cooling. It's nearer to putting a bigger fuel tank on an ICE than fitting a larger engine and turbo.

What should the differential be? Any rough est?
What diff was their on the Renault between leasing and buyout?

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

The Zoe however is a very small car compared to the Leaf and also the Ioniq

we are not comparing like with like here, merely evaluating range, but range is not the only thing to be considered in a EV purchase

Obviously I'm not suggesting anyone buy a car that isn't suitable but if it is at all and someone has to buy now then the Zoe should be top of the list.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

Obviously I'm not suggesting anyone buy a car that isn't suitable but if it is at all and someone has to buy now then the Zoe should be top of the list.

cant agree, its not a very nice car to begin wth

Id rather wait

BoatMad

Water John wrote: »

Putting in a bigger battery is not a big deal unless you have to alter systems eg cooling. It's nearer to putting a bigger fuel tank on an ICE than fitting a larger engine and turbo.

What should the differential be? Any rough est?
What diff was their on the Renault between leasing and buyout?

at present the battery is a serious major cost in the car, hence as you expand it and add more cells, its gets progressively more costly
, this is precisely why the next Gen leaf is being launched with a 40 kWh battery when Nissan can actually fit a 60 kWh one

( remember this is AFTER subsidies here )

until we see major economies of battery manufacture and an end to the shortages of supply, Li batteries will only come down slowly in price

Water John

Figures, I'm sort of looking for, Boat.
I know the batteries are a key cost. It's the differential I'm try to get a feel of.
What effect had going from 24 to 30 have on the price of the Leaf?

BoatMad

Water John wrote: »

Figures, I'm sort of looking for, Boat.
I know the batteries are a key cost. It's the differential I'm try to get a feel of.
What effect had going from 24 to 30 have on the price of the Leaf?

cant give you that as the costs are fairly obscure

I do know at present Li capacity costs are fairly linear, i.e. 1.5 times capacity results in a 1,5x costs increase. There are some " sweet spots "

Also higher densities can mean heat distribution issues, more complicated packaging and sometimes different engineering

the 30 kwh Leaf was offered at a 2000 euros uplift from the 24kWh , if that was any indicator, but I suspect , it might have been a loss leader

prorated , a 60 kwh Leaf, would add 10K to the price, completely trashing its price point

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

at present the battery is a serious major cost in the car, hence as you expand it and add more cells, its gets progressively more costly
, this is precisely why the next Gen leaf is being launched with a 40 kWh battery when Nissan can actually fit a 60 kWh one

( remember this is AFTER subsidies here )

until we see major economies of battery manufacture and an end to the shortages of supply, Li batteries will only come down slowly in price

Nissan's deal with LG Chem failed so this is the reason for the 40 Kwh, LG will not be making any battery for Nissan. And Nissan can't make enough batteries to get costs down. It's possible LG can't meet demand.

Remember the Bolt 60 Kwh ? it's 35 K isn because LG Chem can make a lot more cells than AESC.

What I don't know is if now Nissan will still sell their share to AESC.

unkel

BoatMad wrote:

Range in a Zoe does not fall 25% in winter

Oh yes it does. Check out Nyland test. Range of the Zoe 41kWh was about the same as Ioniq 28kWh in Norway winter test. Which is just ridiculous given the Zoe is more expensive to buy.

I don't believe it lol. But either way, nothing to worry about in an Irish climate.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

Nissan's deal with LG Chem failed so this is the reason for the 40 Kwh, LG will not be making any battery for Nissan. And Nissan can't make enough batteries to get costs down. It's possible LG can't meet demand.

Remember the Bolt 60 Kwh ? it's 35 K isn because LG Chem can make a lot more cells than AESC.

What I don't know is if now Nissan will still sell their share to AESC.

My point remains, irrespective of source, Nissan cant introduce a 60 kWh Leaf at this point in the battery price curve because it moves the Leafs price point too far upwards ( as the Zoe will find out )

Hence they are hoping that battery costs will drop over the lifetime of the car to enable a 60 kWh option to be offered

Hyundai are on the same track , but the form factor of the current Ioniq is rumoured to be a big issue

Nissan could introduce a 60 Kwh battery if they could get the same deal from LG Chem that GM did. It would cost around 35 K. Sure, it's expensive but it would give people options, 60 Kwh Leaf or Bolt.

Zoe is a very popular EV in Europe, except Ireland and I'm sure the 40 Kwh will be equally as popular if not more.

As I said, I could probably accept a 100+ Kw charging 40 Kwh over a 60 Kwh, however, I do wish to be as independent from the public network as possible and luckily I don't have to frequently use it, if I did I'd go mad, at least in the 24 Kwh Leaf with it's "slow" fast charging ! :-)

unkel

Deleted User wrote:

I don't believe it lol. But either way, nothing to worry about in an Irish climate.

You don't believe what Nyland posted. Seriously?

I don't really care to be honest. it's irrelevant in an Irish climate.

unkel

Fair enough. Over here range would probably be between 20km and 60km more than Ioniq. Given the size and spec of the Zoe it should be about a EUR20k car so at the very most. The EUR27k list price is insane. Nice looking car though!

BoatMad

unkel wrote: »

Fair enough. Over here range would probably be between 20km and 60km more than Ioniq. Given the size and spec of the Zoe it should be about a EUR20k car so at the very most. The EUR27k list price is insane. Nice looking car though!

yes and I think Renault will struggle to move this car

This is because its price point was originally a factor of its uniqueness in the market place, thats now ended

DrPhilG

BoatMad wrote: »

Hence they are hoping that battery costs will drop over the lifetime of the car to enable a 60 kWh option to be offered.

Do you think they would offer an upgrade like Renault are doing?

In other words would people who buy the 40kwh car next year be able to upgrade to a 60kwh a few years down the line?

BoatMad

DrPhilG wrote: »

Do you think they would offer an upgrade like Renault are doing?

In other words would people who buy the 40kwh car next year be able to upgrade to a 60kwh a few years down the line?

NO , I dont think so , not Nissans style , it basically just robs new car sales

DrPhilG

Wishful thinking...

BoatMad

DrPhilG wrote: »

Wishful thinking...

yeah , I dont think theres a whole lot off future in upgradeable ( as opposed to replaceable ) batteries , rather like Apple and Samsung etc

Fermi

Guys,

I just got email from the dealer that they have processed the SEAI grant and gave me the application number and dealer code.

Asked me to apply for the charger point - where do I do this and by your experience, how long should this take?

Thanks,

man_no_plan

Fermi wrote: »

Guys,

I just got email from the dealer that they have processed the SEAI grant and gave me the application number and dealer code.

Asked me to apply for the charger point - where do I do this and by your experience, how long should this take?

Thanks,

On ecars website. Will get reply in a day or so.

isnottheword

BoatMad wrote: »

yeah , I dont think theres a whole lot off future in upgradeable ( as opposed to replaceable ) batteries , rather like Apple and Samsung etc

Hopefully, aftermarket providers will emerge. There's a lot more money involved by comparison with upgrading or refurbishing a mobile phone battery.

unkel

unkel wrote: »

Fair enough. Over here range would probably be between 20km and 60km more than Ioniq. Given the size and spec of the Zoe it should be about a EUR20k car so at the very most. The EUR27k list price is insane. Nice looking car though!

No point guessing !

ELM327

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't really care to be honest. it's irrelevant in an Irish climate.

It's the opposite of irrelevant, it shows the limits of the cars and how they perform in extreme circumstances (distance, temperature extremes, many many FCP in a row etc).

I'd say I've watched every review he has put up, at least 5 times.

ELM327

Fermi wrote: »

And, will all respect, Zoe and Leaf are both so ugly looking cars...

I quite like the Zoe in black.
As a leaf owner I don't like the leaf's looks lol.

thelikelylad

unkel wrote: »

Fair enough. Over here range would probably be between 20km and 60km more than Ioniq. Given the size and spec of the Zoe it should be about a EUR20k car so at the very most. The EUR27k list price is insane. Nice looking car though!

Totally agree €27k is insane. It's fairly basic spec inside, nothing special in terms of toys. I genuinely don't know why anyone would buy one over an Ioniq right now at €27k anyway.

From what I've seen on one of the FB groups a guy did Dublin - Cork non-stop (250km with 10% left). He averaged 73km/h over the whole trip - So it took roughly 3hr 25mins. Now I've done the same journey in the Ioniq in 3hr 10mins and that included a 35min stop at the FCP - So 15 mins faster and I got to have a coffee/bathroom break. So as expected you'll only really ever see the extra range around town or on slower sub-urban/rural trips when you're not too far from home or doing big mileage anyway.

They might sell a few over the next few months but I reckon these Zoe 40's will eventually be as scarce as the first gen models once the Leaf 2 comes on the scene. Provided the Leaf 2 is around the €30k mark then no one in their right mind should buy a €27k Zoe over a Leaf 2 or Ioniq. If they shave €5k off the Zoe then we'll see.

ELM327

average 73km/h on a motorway/DC isnt realistic though so it shows that we are not quite there yet.

Depend , I usually take the older national routes when I'm not commuting, having said that when I'm on days I usually avoid the M7/N7 as the road is not fit for purpose. Anyway, I do enjoy taking the older routes when I'm not in a rush. I know a lot of people have the mindset that they have to get there asap or trying to beat the estimated GPS time lol.

I have to say though I don't really want another small car like the Leaf or Ioniq , I'm trying to get my partner to get a 7 seater which would be very convenient for us to take Granny off with us some places or her parents when they come over without having to take 2 cars and I could live with the small hatch but it's a right pain in the ass having a hatch and small estate.

I would imagine those who buy the Zoe could be happy enough getting decent range. I bet it will sell well on the continent as the 22 Kwh was highly successful there.

ELM327

I normally drive 120 (real world 120, so 128 in the leaf) on the motorway.
This is what I do normally in an ICE or when I'm not range limited in my leaf. I think thats generally people's mentality.

When there is an EV that can comfortably do dublin to cork non stop at 120 then there will be mass adoption.

BoatMad

ELM327 wrote: »

I normally drive 120 (real world 120, so 128 in the leaf) on the motorway.
This is what I do normally in an ICE or when I'm not range limited in my leaf. I think thats generally people's mentality.

When there is an EV that can comfortably do dublin to cork non stop at 120 then there will be mass adoption.

Most people don't drive at the motorway limit at all.

ELM327

BoatMad wrote: »

Most people don't drive at the motorway limit at all.

My experience since getting my leaf
Range Mode:
Driving at 100km/h indicated on the motorway to save range, everyone flies by, I make 0 overtakes (except trucks)

Normal Mode:
Driving at 110-120km/h indicated on the motorway , I make some overtakes but generally 75% of cars pass me, and I pass the other 25%

Non restricted Mode :
Driving at >120 km/h indicated. When I am travelling less than 70-80 km with a full charge I can drive as I please, and even above 140km/h I still find I am overtaken as much as I overtake


Conclusion: it's not empirical, but based on my opinion more people drive at or above the limit, than below.

BoatMad

ELM327 wrote: »

My experience since getting my leaf
Range Mode:
Driving at 100km/h indicated on the motorway to save range, everyone flies by, I make 0 overtakes (except trucks)

Normal Mode:
Driving at 110-120km/h indicated on the motorway , I make some overtakes but generally 75% of cars pass me, and I pass the other 25%

Non restricted Mode :
Driving at >120 km/h indicated. When I am travelling less than 70-80 km with a full charge I can drive as I please, and even above 140km/h I still find I am overtaken as much as I overtake


Conclusion: it's not empirical, but based on my opinion more people drive at or above the limit, than below.

I would personally say that there is a considerable group of people at around 110 km/h

unkel

BoatMad wrote:

Range in a Zoe does not fall 25% in winter

Oh yes it does. And the rest. Renault France are very honest about it. They state the NEDC range of 400km on their website. And that the real life range is 300km in good weather and 200km in winter. So 33% less. Nyland didn't even get 200km, but I guess winter in Norway is colder than winter in France

highdef

BoatMad wrote: »

Most people don't drive at the motorway limit at all.

I drive at motorway limit, every limit actually. I don't see any reason for why I can drive faster than that limit. I'll hand in my licence if I decide I think it's ok for me to drive faster than the limits. Obeying the rules of the road is a prerequisite for holding a driver's licence, in my eyes.

I think I'm a rare beast!

Most days I plough down the motorway at 120-130 Kph, conditions permitting, in the Leaf once I don't need to worry about range for commuting. I'd imagine I'm pretty hard on the battery to be honest and probably more than a substantial number of Leaf drivers. You definitely won't see me being over taken my other Leaf drivers.

I've seen Gen I Leaf drivers at as low as 60 Kph on the M7 ! shocking !

JohnnyJohnJohns

Deposit paid- should have it in early July!

You're mad, with 2 months to go to the announcement of Leaf II, but anyway, best of luck !

BorneTobyWilde

How has range improved in this Hotty Weather. How is Con Air? Does it work well.

unkel

Deleted User wrote:

I've seen Gen I Leaf drivers at as low as 60 Kph on the M7 ! shocking !

They should be prosecuted for dangerous driving.

punisher5112

unkel wrote: »

They should be prosecuted for dangerous driving.

Worst part is one can travel at 50km/h

My 50cc scooter went nearly double that and wasn't allowed on the motorway...

thierry14

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You're mad, with 2 months to go to the announcement of Leaf II, but anyway, best of luck !

I would be more concerned about upgraded Ioniq announcement

Leaf 2 is set to be a big disappointment

Leaf is finished

Competition have caught up

Like the micra it will be way behind its rivals.

Won't be able to give a 24kwh Leaf away in 2019

unkel

unkel wrote: »

They should be prosecuted for dangerous driving.

So should all the other slow drivers on the motorways it's ridiculous.

isnottheword

thierry14 wrote: »

Won't be able to give a 24kwh Leaf away in 2019

As in used? I'm not concerned. Depreciation sure - but there is a market that's perfect for older Leafs.

ELM327

thierry14 wrote: »

Won't be able to give a 24kwh Leaf away in 2019

Like a gen1 now you mean?
2011-2017, versus 2017-2019 from your example.
I don't see any chance that your point is true.
However it wouldn't make much difference to me anyway even if it did, as I am saving money on an end value neutral basis. IE I did the sums assuming a zero value remaining in the car at the end and it still saves money.

(as an aside, I'm aware i'm in a small subset of people where a 70km range EV is still perfectly usable as I do a long commute of approx 60km with work charging.)

thelikelylad

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

How has range improved in this Hotty Weather. How is Con Air? Does it work well.

The air con is good, it's pretty quick to get up/down to temp.

Higher temps definitely improve range but I'm guessing any gain is probably offset by using air con. Went for a Sunday drive yesterday and did around 95km with air con on and 5 adults in the car all on 33% juice. Averaged 11.5kWh/100km over the whole trip I think.

Fiery mutant

Anyone seen the attached come up. Happened while I was driving back from dropping the kids to school this morning.