Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2016 - Mod Warning link in OP 20/3

secman

bucketybuck wrote: »

Couldn't agree more. He is a fine and versatile squad player who somehow plays every game at centre back, and when a proper manager comes in that experiment will end pretty damn sharp in my opinion.

A poor version of Phil neville

bangkok

bucketybuck wrote: »

Couldn't agree more. He is a fine and versatile squad player who somehow plays every game at centre back, and when a proper manager comes in that experiment will end pretty damn sharp in my opinion.

It was hardly an experiment playing him there in fairness. Injury to the squad forced van gaal to play him there and he has done very well

bangkok

secman wrote: »

A poor version of Phil neville

Lol

Rayne Wooney

It's such a shame Mata came to the club at the worst possible time, he's a player that needs a functioning team around him and we've been far from functioning in his 3 years at the club, hard to believe he's only 5 games away from 100 apps for us.

I hope he sticks around for at least another year if Jose is the next manager

Jayop

bangkok wrote: »

It was hardly an experiment playing him there in fairness. Injury to the squad forced van gaal to play him there and he has done very well

Nah it was planned from pre season. He started every game preseason at CB despite Smalling and Jones both being fully fit.

Jayop

bucketybuck wrote: »

Really? Because that was the type of system where I really couldn't see Mata doing everything the role required. Sure Ronnie and Rooney will be running around him for those little passes, but that role also requires far more workrate and physicality than I think Mata would have provided. Its one of the reasons Rooney played there so often.

I think in that original line up Ronaldo was central but further forward than what Mata would be. Rooney was LW and Park was RW.

I think Ronaldo would go to town in Mata's passing.

Mitch Connor

bangkok wrote: »

It was hardly an experiment playing him there in fairness. Injury to the squad forced van gaal to play him there and he has done very well

He has played there all season - and when players were fit in pre-season he started there too - ALL indications this season are LVG saw Blind as his first choice beside Smalling, his other first choice.

Blind playing CB has nothing to do with injuries. It was a choice.

Jayop

Mitch Connor wrote: »

He has played there all season - and when players were fit in pre-season he started there too - ALL indications this season are LVG saw Blind as his first choice beside Smalling, his other first choice.

Blind playing CB has nothing to do with injuries. It was a choice.

To go one further, from preseason it was actually Blind and Jones who started the games together iirc and Smalling would have been the one to miss out had it not been for Jones constant injuries.

bangkok

Mitch Connor wrote: »

He has played there all season - and when players were fit in pre-season he started there too - ALL indications this season are LVG saw Blind as his first choice beside Smalling, his other first choice.

Blind playing CB has nothing to do with injuries. It was a choice.

Did van gaal not want to play with 3 centre backs, blind the "deep lying play maker" centre back with 2 fast full backs that would basically play as wingers and shawa injury basically stopped that from happening?

Jayop

bangkok wrote: »

Did van gaal not want to play with 3 centre backs, blind the "deep lying play maker" centre back with 2 fast full backs that would basically play as wingers and shawa injury basically stopped that from happening?

Not if you take how we lined up in preseason and for the first few games as any indication of a plan.

Mitch Connor

Jayop wrote: »

Not if you take how we lined up in preseason and for the first few games as any indication of a plan.

or how we lined up in competitive games when Shaw was fit.

Dunno what the feck bangkok is banging on about here, completely wrong.

adox

bangkok wrote: »

It was hardly an experiment playing him there in fairness. Injury to the squad forced van gaal to play him there and he has done very well

This is simply not true.

Also any manager worth his salt would have brought in at least one other CB in the summer rather than shoe horning in a player who's natural position it wasn't.


He hasn't done very well there for us this season. He's been poor there overall. He has qualities but he is not a CB and never will be. Hes a squad player but shouldn't be starting in a first 11. I was flabbergasted when the experiment of playing him at CB started and was convinced it wasn't a long term decision at th time and another CB would be signed by Van Gaal continued to surprise me and not in a good way.

It's one of a litany of stupid decisions by Van Gaal playing players out of position. It all leads me to believe that Van Gaal had no pan for the team for the season and was winging it. Memphis at no 10 for a little while. Januzai at no 10 for the first few league games and then shipped off on loan.

The latest now being Lingard at no 10 instead of Mata with Mata being pushed out wide right.

It's been one error after another from Van Gaal. Thankfully his circus is in its final few acts at Utd. For such an experienced and decorated manager he couldn't have made much more of a mess of things if he tried.

Jayop

adox wrote: »

This is simply not true.

Also any manager worth his salt would have brought in at least one other CB in the summer rather than shoe horning in a player who's natural position it wasn't.


He hasn't done very well there for us this season. He's been poor there overall. He has qualities but he is not a CB and never will be. Hes a squad player but shouldn't be starting in a first 11. I was flabbergasted when the experiment of playing him at CB started and was convinced it wasn't a long term decision at th time and another CB would be signed by Van Gaal continued to surprise me and not in a good way.

It's one of a litany of stupid decisions by Van Gaal playing players out of position. It all leads me to believe that Van Gaal had no pan for the team for the season and was winging it. Memphis at no 10 for a little while. Januzai at no 10 for the first few league games and then shipped off on loan.

The latest now being Lingard at no 10 instead of Mata with Mata being pushed out wide right.

It's been one error after another from Van Gaal. Thankfully his circus is in its final few acts at Utd. For such an experienced and decorated manager he couldn't have made much more of a mess of things if he tried.

I think we did try to get Ramos and the club probably stupidly believed it would happen, but even if we did get him I have a suspicion it would have been the plan to play Ramos and Blind as the partnership.

I agree that playing Mata right and Lingard centrally is bonkers. We stumble onto a winning formula every so often and then he decides to change it again anyway. It's nuts.

bangkok

Mitch Connor wrote: »

or how we lined up in competitive games when Shaw was fit.

Dunno what the feck bangkok is banging on about here, completely wrong.

Remember reading an article about it, I will find it tomorrow. Was a 352 formation or 433 which ever way you look at it and shaws injury prevented him from doing it

Jayop

bangkok wrote: »

Remember reading an article about it, I will find it tomorrow. Was a 352 formation or 433 which ever way you look at it and shaws injury prevented him from doing it

Could you be getting mixed up with the start of the 2014/15 season where we did play pre-season with a back 3 and started the season the same way until injuries and crap results forced him to change it.

bangkok

Jayop wrote: »

Not if you take how we lined up in preseason and for the first few games as any indication of a plan.

Pre season is hard to judge though what way we would play considering amount of team changes and then rojo missing the entire pre season in the states didn't help matters either

Jayop

bangkok wrote: »

Pre season is hard to judge though what way we would play considering amount of team changes and then rojo missing the entire pre season in the states didn't help matters either

As was said though it wasn't just pre-season, it was the CL quali and the first few league games too.

bangkok

Jayop wrote: »

As was said though it wasn't just pre-season, it was the CL quali and the first few league games too.

Yea but Jones was injured and rojo was on the brink of being sold for his pre season antics

Mitch Connor

bangkok wrote: »

Yea but Jones was injured and rojo was on the brink of being sold for his pre season antics

Everything we have seen all season and preseason points to you being wrong, including LVG stating plainly he was going to use Blind at CB from the start of pre-season. But sure, keeping banging your odd drum.

beno619

bucketybuck wrote: »

Bought him. Did he play him?

Misconception, he played a lot under Fergie, but missed a good chunk of the season between Jan - Match through injury, came back into the side and scored that hattrick vs Norwich.

There's also enough evidence to suggest Fergie was going to bin Rooney go with RVP as his main man and play Kagawa at #10 pre retirement plan.

Liam O

If Blind was 3 inches taller nobody would have a problem with him at CB. The amount of times an attacker has him one on one and he comes out with the ball cleanly is fantastic and he is pretty good in the air all things considered. Him and Smalling work well together and their abilities compliment each other. Blind is very good with the ball in front of him, when he has to chase it not so much imo.

He has been very good this season, I don't know why people are trying to scapegoat him in recent weeks after 1 bad game. Especially since the likes of Schneiderlin and Herrera have been leaving massive gaps through the middle recently when played. Smalling had a blip recently, as did Blind but they've looked good the last couple of games again.

Strumms

CB isn't Blind's best position but on the whole he does a decent job back there. Our defense hasn't exactly been a shambles as the stats will back up. I think he is a fine footballer and a great utility player to have. Not many players around now who can play 3 positions and play them well. It's an awful indictment again on LVG and his squad management that he has been playing Blind as his first choice CB for the entire season almost I'd have rather seen him deployed as one of the two defensive midfielders or left full he would have been better then Darmian who I don't like when he plays on the left although you can't really say much bad about CBJ when he has had a run before his injury.

Speaking of defenders... time to ship Jones out ? I know he is young but **** these fitness issues. Get in someone like Varane who might be a bit more cultured and sensible back there and manage to play a few games...

Pro. F

Liam O wrote: »

If Blind was 3 inches taller nobody would have a problem with him at CB. The amount of times an attacker has him one on one and he comes out with the ball cleanly is fantastic and he is pretty good in the air all things considered. Him and Smalling work well together and their abilities compliment each other. Blind is very good with the ball in front of him, when he has to chase it not so much imo.

He has been very good this season, I don't know why people are trying to scapegoat him in recent weeks after 1 bad game. Especially since the likes of Schneiderlin and Herrera have been leaving massive gaps through the middle recently when played. Smalling had a blip recently, as did Blind but they've looked good the last couple of games again.

I don't rate him as highly as you do at CB (just because of his relative lack of pace and aerial strength), but I don't think he's been near as bad as some are making out and he's got plenty of good traits like you describe.

Pro. F

bucketybuck wrote: »

I'd certainly give all our players a lot of leeway considering our present management, but there are still criticisms to be made and its certainly not a case of picking on Mata alone.

But he is the focus of this discussion and I do feel he has a case to answer. He is not a kid or a PL newcomer like some of his teammates, he was signed as an experienced title winning full international for big money and he should be treated as such. If anybody in that current squad should be expected to stand up and be counted its a senior player like Mata, but he has never done that for us.

Again, my point was that Jose knew why he wanted rid and we perhaps should have heeded that a bit more. Jose knew Mata's limitations, and unfortunately they were limitations that applied to us as much as they did to Mourinho's Chelsea.

Sometimes its too easy to say that we have been ****e so we can't judge players, the fact is that we need the players to stand up and help pull us out of this mire. Its clear now that people like Mata won't do that for us.

I would say that it has also been clear that players like Chicharito, Di Maria, Herrera, Rooney, Smalling, Carrick, Schndeiderlin, Darmian, Shaw, Memphis, Martial, Fellaini, etc have not been able to pull us out of the mire either. You could say that some have looked like they've been helping more than the rest - Martial, DDG, Shaw and Smalling maybe - but in reality it is extremely marginal and it is also just not a good way of judging the quality of footballers. It informs you about one very specific quality, ie the ability to battle for the ball when teamwork and organisation have gone to shít. It is a talent that is more common among athletic players (notice that those three outfield players are all beasts), but it is no more important to have in a team than other talents, like passing ability, off the ball movement, first touch, goal poaching, defensive intelligence, etc.

I would say that the conclusion to draw is that the mire (Moyes and LVG) has been an insurmountable problem and even excellent players like we have had available aren't enough to overcome it.

bucketybuck wrote: »

As an aside, does anybody think Fergie would have bought Mata? I can't think of a Fergie team that ever would have suited him?

Mata is a top level goal threat when played advanced centrally so I could see him possibly working out in a Fergie team. I don't think Mata's workrate is as bad as many say and I could see Fergie managing to accommodate him working behind a suitably strong and busy centre-forward (like Rooney or Tevez).

Even if we say for arguments sake that Mata would not have worked in a Fergie team, I don't think that is a particularly useful way of judging a player. I don't think a Fergie team would have suited Nedved, but I still think Nedved was a superb player. I would say the same for Rui Costa in his prime and Iniesta and Ozil today. I'm pretty sure I heard an ex-Fergie player the other day saying that Fergie didn't particularly rate Zidane (which would make sense, since he was one of these 10s that aren't consistent goal scorers).

Mourinho also doesn't rate Mata. That is also just a reflection on the system Mourinho likes to play rather than the player's quality.

Jayop

Liam O wrote: »

If Blind was 3 inches taller nobody would have a problem with him at CB. The amount of times an attacker has him one on one and he comes out with the ball cleanly is fantastic and he is pretty good in the air all things considered. Him and Smalling work well together and their abilities compliment each other. Blind is very good with the ball in front of him, when he has to chase it not so much imo.

He has been very good this season, I don't know why people are trying to scapegoat him in recent weeks after 1 bad game. Especially since the likes of Schneiderlin and Herrera have been leaving massive gaps through the middle recently when played. Smalling had a blip recently, as did Blind but they've looked good the last couple of games again.

He's the same height as Jones so that's not his problem.

Jayop

Also, I'll reiterate that I've said since last summer that I didn't rate him at cb so it's not reactionary to a bad few games

Liam O

Jayop wrote: »

He's the same height as Jones so that's not his problem.

Yeah and Jones probably weighs about 2 stone more so can use that a bit more. Blind is pretty good in the air. Not great by any means but good enough so far. He wouldn't have been my ideal candidate for the position but has done very well. When you look at 30m odd signings like Mangala and Otamendi who have been bought recently enough have they been much better if better at all?

He will probably be moved aside when Jose comes in but i don't think CB has been the problem this season barring the injuries. In terms of a possession game the master of it in Pep has played Javi Martinez and Mascherano at CB and they are better players than Blind but Blind does the same role as them to a very good standard imo.

adox

Liam O wrote: »

If Blind was 3 inches taller nobody would have a problem with him at CB. The amount of times an attacker has him one on one and he comes out with the ball cleanly is fantastic and he is pretty good in the air all things considered. Him and Smalling work well together and their abilities compliment each other. Blind is very good with the ball in front of him, when he has to chase it not so much imo.

He has been very good this season, I don't know why people are trying to scapegoat him in recent weeks after 1 bad game. Especially since the likes of Schneiderlin and Herrera have been leaving massive gaps through the middle recently when played. Smalling had a blip recently, as did Blind but they've looked good the last couple of games again.

From my own perspective I think Ive been pretty consistent with my opinion on Blind at CB. I raised my concerns when Van Gaal started playing him there and have commented throughout the season here and there about his ability there. Ive also been a big critic of Schneiderlin and have stated in the past that people have been over-valuing Herreras contribution(not saying that your comments are directed at me particularly).

LVG out?

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11667/10215825/louis-van-gaal-not-in-manchester-united-pre-season-promo-video

zorro2566

zorro2566 wrote: »

LVG out?

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11667/10215825/louis-van-gaal-not-in-manchester-united-pre-season-promo-video

Hmmmm

Very strange that he is not in it. Was he in the promo material last season?

Antibac

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Hmmmm

Very strange that he is not in it. Was he in the promo material last season?

All over it.

Liam O

adox wrote: »

From my own perspective I think Ive been pretty consistent with my opinion on Blind at CB. I raised my concerns when Van Gaal started playing him there and have commented throughout the season here and there about his ability there. Ive also been a big critic of Schneiderlin and have stated in the past that people have been over-valuing Herreras contribution(not saying that your comments are directed at me particularly).

Ah no sure I had the same reservations at the start myself, have just been impressed by how well he's done despite nobody wanting to see him there. I was so dogged in my dislike of Smalling that it took me a good while to buy him as a consistently good CB and tbh I'd be reasonably quick to turn on him I think. I just think Blind has great tackling technique and is a better one on one defender than anyone else in the team and the amount of dangerous attacks that this breaks down is underrated as he's not as last ditch as Smalling.

jimmytwotimes 2013

Blind is a decent player. As mentioned above, he's very good at nicking a ball off a striker. However his lack of pace kills him and I guess there's nothing much he can do about that.

I remember when his move to United was first talked about in the press, he was quoted as saying he's not the type of player to be heading balls clear all day. He would probably be better suited to Italian/Spanish football.

One thing I do really like about him is that he's able, and willing, to play forward passes between pressing forwards. United are short of players with guts on that front.

Going forward (and indeed when United used to be half decent) Blind is probably a decent squad player and the fact he's a regular starter shows where United are these days.

There is a queue of players who have more to be embarrassed about ahead of Blind though.

Cantona's Collars

Off topic but I just turned on SSN,I don't think Rachel Wyse has copped that her clothes have become transparent under the studio lights.:p

bangkok

Great to see Varela got called up to the Uruguay squad. will be a great learning experience for him and a great birthday present

Cookie_Dough

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Hmmmm

Very strange that he is not in it. Was he in the promo material last season?

I hear if you play the video backwards there's subliminal messages from Jose

Vic Vinegar

Changes to the Champions League format are being discussed to try and stop any of the big teams thinking about a breakaway league.

The new format would involve a 2 leg knock-out round of 32, then a mini league system of 8 teams each, the top 2 of each league would qualify for the semi finals......

Thoughts?

Alf Veedersane

Vic Vinegar wrote: »

Changes to the Champions League format are being discussed to try and stop any of the big teams thinking about a breakaway league.

The new format would involve a 2 leg knock-out round of 32, then a mini league system of 8 teams each, the top 2 of each league would qualify for the semi finals......

Thoughts?

An extra 5 matches? No thanks.

Liam O

Vic Vinegar wrote: »

Changes to the Champions League format are being discussed to try and stop any of the big teams thinking about a breakaway league.

The new format would involve a 2 leg knock-out round of 32, then a mini league system of 8 teams each, the top 2 of each league would qualify for the semi finals......

Thoughts?

Would be the top team of each league no? Otherwise there would be 8 teams left. Be fun for us but teams would be quite stretched.

beno619

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Blind is a decent player. As mentioned above, he's very good at nicking a ball off a striker. However his lack of pace kills him and I guess there's nothing much he can do about that.

I remember when his move to United was first talked about in the press, he was quoted as saying he's not the type of player to be heading balls clear all day. He would probably be better suited to Italian/Spanish football.

One thing I do really like about him is that he's able, and willing, to play forward passes between pressing forwards. United are short of players with guts on that front.

Going forward (and indeed when United used to be half decent) Blind is probably a decent squad player and the fact he's a regular starter shows where United are these days.

There is a queue of players who have more to be embarrassed about ahead of Blind though.

This was my biggest criticism of him during his first season when he played DM.

His passing was was too passive, Cleveley'esque even.. but that seems to be the case with all our DM's so he may have been under instruction to play it safe in that role.

Vic Vinegar

Liam O wrote: »

Would be the top team of each league no? Otherwise there would be 8 teams left. Be fun for us but teams would be quite stretched.

2 leagues of 8 teams, top 2 from each advance to semi finals.

Liam O

Vic Vinegar wrote: »

2 leagues of 8 teams, top 2 from each advance to semi finals.

Oh the 2 legs knockout at 32, I get it now. This is from the start of the tournament presumably? No early group stages? Be a lot of dead rubber games in that format I reckon by the end.

dr.kenneth noisewater

Liam O wrote: »

Oh the 2 legs knockout at 32, I get it now. This is from the start of the tournament presumably? No early group stages? Be a lot of dead rubber games in that format I reckon by the end.

Think its aimed at having the top teams playing each other more regularly to bump up the TV money as the European clubs are being left behind by the new PL TV rights deal

Jayop

As interesting as that sounds you're still only seeing 16 teams get into the cl proper.

Alf Veedersane

I had originally assumed it meant the group stages as is with 32 teams coming from them and then the last 16 in groups of 8.

But as I read it, the likely format is similar to the existing qualification with 16 teams making it through to join the 16 seeds in the last 32 where the draw would be seeds vs qualifiers.

Not clear if it's home and away matches in the groups of 8.

If it is playing each team in the group of 8 twice, the number of games to win it out starting in the CL proper goes to 18 from 15.

3 games doesn't sound like much but coming to the business end of the season, those games will tell.

Johan Cruyff,Legend R.I.P.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/mar/24/johan-cruyff-dies-aged-68-holland-football-legend

The_Kew_Tour

Just hope we stay injury free now over next week.

Jayop

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

I had originally assumed it meant the group stages as is with 32 teams coming from them and then the last 16 in groups of 8.

But as I read it, the likely format is similar to the existing qualification with 16 teams making it through to join the 16 seeds in the last 32 where the draw would be seeds vs qualifiers.

Not clear if it's home and away matches in the groups of 8.

If it is playing each team in the group of 8 twice, the number of games to win it out starting in the CL proper goes to 18 from 15.

3 games doesn't sound like much but coming to the business end of the season, those games will tell.

19 games.

Pre-qualification over 2 legs.
14 group games.
Semi final over 2 legs
Final

If you previously had to qualify for group stages then add more games to that.

jayo26

zorro2566 wrote: »

Johan Cruyff,Legend R.I.P.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/mar/24/johan-cruyff-dies-aged-68-holland-football-legend

RIP TO A LEGEND

Didn't even realise the man was sick.

Alf Veedersane

Jayop wrote: »

19 games.

Pre-qualification over 2 legs.
14 group games.
Semi final over 2 legs
Final

If you previously had to qualify for group stages then add more games to that.

Yup. I'd marked the last-32 as one tie rather than 2 games