Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2016 - Mod Warning link in OP 20/3

Pro. F

TheDoc wrote: »

And it's been evident since he held the club to ransom, his form and level has dipped bit by bit. Ferguson was doing Moyes a favour in retrospect, which he bundled first day in the door.

You are wildly misrememberring how important Rooney was to saving Moyes's season from even worse disaster. Rooney was one of the most productive attacking players in the league that season. His non-penalty goals + assists per 90 minutes was 0.85, and you think Moyes would have been better without him?

TheDoc wrote: »

I think it can be. While of course the crux of the blame lies with Van Gaal and his squad management, that our season has resolved around holding hope for a 19 year old for the first half of the season, and an 18 year old in the last number of weeks, doesn't really hold Rooney into a shining light either.

He was dreadful for large portions of the first half of the season, and then had his almost like clockwork big injury blow.

A big deal was made about him leading the line and being the number one man, and he utterly flattered to deceive. I'll accept there is alot of defence for him with the blame lieing being pointed at Van Gaal, but to be honest I'm not buying that. I expect the 5th highest paid player in the world, and after all the furor over him being our main striker, I expected more from him. Instead we got just about the same as usual, and actually worse.

I appreciate where you are coming from, but I totally get why people are looking at Rashford and comparing with Rooney. Beside the simple fact it is just what fans do, Rashford is operating at a peak right now of form and its incredible.

He will be better judged when he comes off the crest of the wave, which inevitably will happen. But his pace and enthusiasm has been a wonderful distraction.

So even though Rooney has pretty much the same productivity (in terms of the sum of goals and creativity) as the two young lads, you think our season has "resolved" around them and not Rooney.

Rashford and Martial have been a good news story for the fans to cling to. A wonderful distraction as you say. But the mistake you are making is allowing that distraction to cloud your judgement on what they have actually done compared to Rooney.

0gac3yjefb5sv7

Adamcp898 wrote: »

Sky sources reporting PSG have approached Mourinho now. I know this was already reported but more fuel on the fire.

If LVG or Giggs are the manager next season in place of Mourinho then we deserve to be **** for the next 10 years.

Pro. F

MagicIRL wrote: »

Lukaku flanked by Rashford and Martial would be dream territory. I'd play Herrera, Schniederlin and Mata behind them and Shaw, Smalling, Blind and Darmian (although I really like the young lad Valera going forward) behind them again.

It's not mad to think of United lining up with

De Gea
Darmian - Smalling - Blind - Shaw
Schniderlin - Herrera
Mata
Rashford - Lukaku - Martial

That's a very strong team in my opinion. It's the squad depth that needs to be sorted as well, though.

Putting Rashford on the wing would be an awful idea imo.

Why not just buy a winger and leave Rashford in the position he looks so naturally suited to?

KH25

Pro. F wrote: »

Putting Rashford on the wing would be an awful idea imo.

Why not just buy a winger and leave Rashford in the position he looks so naturally suited to?

This. We need to buy a proper right winger.

Pro. F

Sebastian Dangerfield wrote: »

Im working from memory but I think hes only scored 20 league goals in a season twice in his career - correct me if that's wrong.

You're not wrong. The same is true of Drogba and RVP. Do you also think they didn't have good PL careers in terms of goal scoring?

When you look at that metric for a good number of top PL strikers and compare it to their actual goal scoring rates you realise that it is pretty useless for determining which ones are good. This has been demonstrated fairly often on here, but unfortunately in the wider world the 20-league-goals-a-season metric seems to still be quite popular.

Pro. F

TheDoc wrote: »

In football manager land of where I can do what I want with still some basis in transfer reality, I'd probably look to pickup Marquinhos and move Blind back into DM.

Move back to a 4-3-3 with Blind at the base, with Schneiderlan and Hererra ahead of him.

While the 2 deep lying midfielders has without doubt improved our defensive record and stability this season(bar blips, but usually when one of the DM's goes on a high press) I think it sucks too much from the attack and the transition, especially at home.

I'm still baffled that Van Gaal hasn't used his 4-3-3 on a more regular basis. Its like in the twilight in his career, he completely ditched everything that served him so well to experiment, as if to nearly prove to people he still had it.

This formation that we have been using is what LVG calls 433 and is what he has used the most throughout his career. In the past, whenever he has explained how his favoured 433 works, he describes the formation that we are currently using. With two central-midfielders and a number 10 behind the CF. This has been pointed out loads of times in this thread.

Sebastian Dangerfield

Pro. F wrote: »

You're not wrong. The same is true of Drogba and RVP. Do you also think they didn't have good PL careers in terms of goal scoring?

RVP, not all that much. He had a couple of standout seasons but I certainly wouldn't say he was one of the all time greats, no. Longevity in a top team will bring a certain amount of goals, but I don't think it makes you a top level player for the entirety or majority of that career. Remember also for a lot of that career, RVP played second fiddle to Henry, who was their number one striker, and certainly did deliver goals. Rooney is supposed to be our Henry.

I think Drogba offered more in that Chelsea team than Rooney ever did for United, but I take your point. He was dominated teams consistently in ways Rooney never did IMO, but I'd struggle to quantify it - just an opinion. I think Rooney gets far too much credit for his tracking back - the majority of times he does it, certainly in recent years, is because he couldn't control a simple ball into feet in the first place.

I certainly don't think either player endured the long bouts of absolute non-appearance that Rooney has done regularly since his mid-20s, but its just an opinion. I don't rate him, and think he's indulged because he's English.

Pro. F

Sebastian Dangerfield wrote: »

RVP, not all that much. He had a couple of standout seasons but I certainly wouldn't say he was one of the all time greats, no. Longevity in a top team will bring a certain amount of goals, but I don't think it makes you a top level player for the entirety or majority of that career. Remember also for a lot of that career, RVP played second fiddle to Henry, who was their number one striker, and certainly did deliver goals. Rooney is supposed to be our Henry.

I think Drogba offered more in that Chelsea team than Rooney ever did for United, but I take your point. He was dominated teams consistently in ways Rooney never did IMO, but I'd struggle to quantify it - just an opinion. I think Rooney gets far too much credit for his tracking back - the majority of times he does it, certainly in recent years, is because he couldn't control a simple ball into feet in the first place.

I certainly don't think either player endured the long bouts of absolute non-appearance that Rooney has done regularly since his mid-20s, but its just an opinion. I don't rate him, and think he's indulged because he's English.

To be honest, if you don't think RVP was a good goal scorer then I'm not interested in discussing strikers with you. So there's no point in me responding to the rest of your points.

Sebastian Dangerfield

Pro. F wrote: »

To be honest, if you don't think RVP was a good goal scorer then I'm not interested in discussing strikers with you. So there's no point in me responding to the rest of your points.

Thats ruined my day.

Good, yes. Rooney certainly has been "good" but thats not good enough for a number one striker at United now. For the same reason RVP is now at Fenerbache, hes not at the level we need and neither is Rooney

Tom.D.BJJ

Not many players score 20+ a year in the premier league. Sure Shearer did it 7 times, and Henry did it five times, but no other player consistently does it.

Striker Times reached 20 goals
Shearer 7
Henry 5
Van Nistelrooy 4
Ferdinand 3
Aguero 2
A Cole 2
Drogba 2
Hasselbaink 2
Rooney 2
Suarez 2
Tevez 2
Van Persie 2
Wright 2

Tom.D.BJJ

This will be Harry Kane's 2nd 20 goal season in a row.

Sebastian Dangerfield

Tom.D.BJJ wrote: »

Not many players score 20+ a year in the premier league. Sure Shearer did it 7 times, and Henry did it five times, but no other player consistently does it.
2

Sure its rare and certainly not the only metric - I never it was. But to me an awful lot of those players added more than Rooney does, at least in the last few years.

To those defending him, what does he add to the team currently, and what role does he have in a revitalised team under a new manager, in a team challenging for trophies?

Pro. F

Sebastian Dangerfield wrote: »

Thats ruined my day.

Good, yes. Rooney certainly has been "good" but thats not good enough for a number one striker at United now. For the same reason RVP is now at Fenerbache, hes not at the level we need and neither is Rooney

I didn't ask you about RVP's current level. I asked you whether he had had a good PL career in terms of goal scoring. You answered in the negative. That is a nonsense opinion.

Sebastian Dangerfield

Pro. F wrote: »

I didn't ask you about RVP's current level. I asked you whether he had had a good PL career in terms of goal scoring. You answered in the negative. That is a nonsense opinion.

And my response was "All time great - no". That is not nonsense, but go about your business if you have no interest in discussing the topic at hand, which you clearly seem to

Korat

Who people rather see at Utd next season given the choice of Rooney, Lukaku, Benzema or Higuain?

Rayne Wooney

Papers can write whatever they like because of the uncertainty of the situation, one day they'll say Jose is nailed on the next he's off to PSG and nobody can say otherwise

I'm hoping there is an agreement with Jose and they are just letting Van Gaal see out this season. Worst case scenario there's no agreement and they are waiting to see if we get top 4 to give Van Gaal another season, Jose will be off to PSG or Madrid. If the latter situation unfolds I'll be disgusted, the owners have no ambition if Van Gaal gets another season.

Jayop

TheDoc wrote: »

I found his antics distasteful that the club were not matching his ambition. Who exactly filled his trophy cabinet for him. He didn't do it by himself.

And it's been evident since he held the club to ransom, his form and level has dipped bit by bit. Ferguson was doing Moyes a favour in retrospect, which he bundled first day in the door.

I wouldn't say I hate Rooney. I just feel he made a bold statement, and failed to back it up, and has disgracefully failed to provide a return on his outlandish demands and contracts.

I was supportive of him being the no.1 striker this season, but in retrospect that was a ridiculous stance to take as I've always been solid in my opinion of Rooney. World class in patches, barren spells in others, injured for the rest. And I've held that opinion for a large number of years now.

This season just probably hastened me to the conclusion he most likely won't recapture any sort of outlandish consistent form, and possibly is not capable of leading the line of a team looking to challenge for stuff.

I guess I do show that fickle fan side every now again. I took grave exception to his two contract deals, that have left him tarnished. On what should otherwise be a gloriously celebrated player, I struggle to give him the credit and accolades he otherwise deserves, for being his countries top goalscorer and possibly the clubs record goalscorer.

Meh. At the time I lost my **** and thought he was scum for the lacking ambitious thing, but in retrospect who can say HD was wrong. We were losing top players like Ronaldo and replacing with Valencia, allowing the squad to age and go stale. Perhaps if the club had listened to him then we wouldn't have been in our current state.

I know we've won a lot since then but there can be no argument that the squad has been a lot weaker since.

As far as the thing in Fergies last season I truly believe that was mostly fabricated to make Rooney look bad.

MagicIRL

Pro. F wrote: »

Putting Rashford on the wing would be an awful idea imo.

Why not just buy a winger and leave Rashford in the position he looks so naturally suited to?

I agree, but as I said previously, I was just highlighting how the inclusion of Lukaku alone would improve the team in my opinion.

Jayop

Tom.D.BJJ wrote: »

Not many players score 20+ a year in the premier league. Sure Shearer did it 7 times, and Henry did it five times, but no other player consistently does it.

Striker Times reached 20 goals
Shearer 7
Henry 5
Van Nistelrooy 4
Ferdinand 3
Aguero 2
A Cole 2
Drogba 2
Hasselbaink 2
Rooney 2
Suarez 2
Tevez 2
Van Persie 2
Wright 2

And that list points to it being easier by a distance in the early days of the league.

That some just magnanimously admitted Rooney has been "good" throughout his career tells me everything I need to know about the persons bias against the player.

Tom.D.BJJ

Korat wrote: »

Who people rather see at Utd next season given the choice of Rooney, Lukaku, Benzema or Higuain?

Benzema in a heartbeat

Pro. F

Sebastian Dangerfield wrote: »

And my response was "All time great - no". That is not nonsense, but go about your business if you have no interest in discussing the topic at hand, which you clearly seem to

So instead of answering the question I asked (whether or not RVP had a good goal scoring record in his PL career) you decide to answer a different question (was he an all time great).

Yep. Good honest discussion technique there.

I am very interested in discussing the topic of Rooney and how good or not he is btw. But with the way you have approached the discussion, your opinions on RVP, Drogba and the 20-goal-a-season metric need to be addressed first.

If you keep to the claim that RVP and Drogba didn't have good PL careers in terms of goal scoring, then obviously, because that is such an outlandish statement, there's no point in discussing anything else about strikers with you just now.

Fitz*

Tom.D.BJJ wrote: »

Not many players score 20+ a year in the premier league. Sure Shearer did it 7 times, and Henry did it five times, but no other player consistently does it.

Striker Times reached 20 goals
Shearer 7
Henry 5
Van Nistelrooy 4
Ferdinand 3
Aguero 2
A Cole 2
Drogba 2
Hasselbaink 2
Rooney 2
Suarez 2
Tevez 2
Van Persie 2
Wright 2

Fowler got 25 & 28 two seasons in a row too! And Andy Cole never passed 20 goals for United in the league, according to wikipedia.

UnitedIrishman

Sebastian Dangerfield wrote: »

RVP, not all that much. He had a couple of standout seasons but I certainly wouldn't say he was one of the all time greats, no. Longevity in a top team will bring a certain amount of goals, but I don't think it makes you a top level player for the entirety or majority of that career. Remember also for a lot of that career, RVP played second fiddle to Henry, who was their number one striker, and certainly did deliver goals. Rooney is supposed to be our Henry.

I think Drogba offered more in that Chelsea team than Rooney ever did for United, but I take your point. He was dominated teams consistently in ways Rooney never did IMO, but I'd struggle to quantify it - just an opinion. I think Rooney gets far too much credit for his tracking back - the majority of times he does it, certainly in recent years, is because he couldn't control a simple ball into feet in the first place.

I certainly don't think either player endured the long bouts of absolute non-appearance that Rooney has done regularly since his mid-20s, but its just an opinion. I don't rate him, and think he's indulged because he's English.

Not every striker is going to be an Alan Shearer who spends 10-15 years at the top scoring 30 a season.

Rooney has averaged 20 goals a season in all competitions over the past 12 seasons - that's whilst having played as a 10 for a large number of them. That's an above par return.

Any striker that has a 1:2 goals:games record (such as Van Persie) at Premier League and Champions League level over a number of years is most certainly a top level player.

54and56

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Papers can write whatever they like because of the uncertainty of the situation, one day they'll say Jose is nailed on the next he's off to PSG and nobody can say otherwise

I'm hoping there is an agreement with Jose and they are just letting Van Gaal see out this season. Worst case scenario there's no agreement and they are waiting to see if we get top 4 to give Van Gaal another season, Jose will be off to PSG or Madrid. If the latter situation unfolds I'll be disgusted, the owners have no ambition if Van Gaal gets another season.

I think if either the FA Cup is won or 4th is secured LVG will be "promoted" upstairs as DOF and Giggs will be given the managers job.

Imagine trying as a first time full time manager asserting yourself on a squad with SAF and LVG sitting in the stands and lurking in the background. Talk about pressure!! :eek:

Worst scenario of all?

UnitedIrishman

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

Worst scenario of all?

Worst scenario of all is just if Giggs gets the job full stop. We need a completely fresh start with new ideas. This would be more of the same.

markcahill1985

Considering the mess we are in at the minute I actually think it is quite easy to get the team back on track with a few clear/simple moves in the summer.

1) Appoint Jose, we need a new start and as mentioned above appointing Giggs would be a continuation of 2 failed regimes.

2) Pay whatever money is required to sign Renato Sanches and John Stones.

3) Sign an experienced Striker and Attacking wide player.

This would mean we could have a team to build on for the next few years consisting of Fosu Mensah, Stones, Shaw, Sanches, Rashford, Martial, Memhis (giving the benefit of a doubt). Continuing with this spine of players mixed with some quality experience and I believe we wont be far away. May take a season or two for them to develop but at least we could see a clear path for the team during that time.

Giggsy11

https://twitter.com/ManUtd/status/722347013770190848?lang=en

Jayop

Just back to the Kane Vs Lukaku thing I'm firmly in the Kane camp and when you compare him to Shearer at the same age you'll see why.

Kane Vs Shearer (League only)

At the age of 23 Shearer had spent 5 seasons at Southampton in the old 1st Division and one season at Blackburn in the Premier League.
Apps - 139
Goals - 39
GPG - 0.28

At the Age of 23 Kane has spent 3 seasons on loan and 3 seasons at Spurs.
Apps - 135
Goals - 62
GPG - 0.46

His record with Spurs alone is even more impressive.
Apps - 79
Goals - 48
GPG - 0.61


Now I'll caveat that with the next four seasons in a row after his 23rd birthday were by some distance the best of Shearers Career scoring an average of 30.25 league goals per season. It's doubtful weather Kane would be able to match that kind of record.

jayo26

Tom.D.BJJ wrote: »

Benzema in a heartbeat

Why tho?? Do you know what madrid would do??

They would sell benzema to us for 80 million and go buy Lukaku who is 5 or 6 years younger and similar goals per game record in past couple seasons for 60 million now who gets the best deal???

Pro. F

I like Renato Sanches a lot, he's a great prospect, but I wouldn't go breaking transfer records or anything on him this summer. There are still very big question marks over him (specifically his stamina and application) and we're not stuck for players in his position. Herrera and Fellaini are currently better box-to-box CMs than him.

Stones at least fills a need we have directly, but I'd be very cautious of trying to pay whatever ridiculous fee Everton might want.

jayo26

Pro. F wrote: »

I like Renato Sanches a lot, he's a great prospect, but I wouldn't go breaking transfer records or anything on him this summer. There are still very big question marks over him (specifically his stamina and application) and we're not stuck for players in his position. Herrera and Fellaini are currently better box-to-box CMs than him.

Stones at least fills a need we have directly, but I'd be very cautious of trying to pay whatever ridiculous fee Everton might want.

Agree with you on both. Sanchez looks great but He is going to cost a bomb and I don't rate stones in the 30 million bracket yet.

Hococop

With benzema ways the story with that court case, that sorted or still ongoing?

jayo26

Hococop wrote: »

With benzema ways the story with that court case, that sorted or still ongoing?

Still ongoing from what I know, he not going to the euros either

VW 1

jayo26 wrote:

Agree with you on both. Sanchez looks great but He is going to cost a bomb and I don't rate stones in the 30 million bracket yet.

Likelihood is by the time he is rated in the 30m bracket he will cost 50m, prices are crazy.

Korat

I'd prefer Benzema too. We've already got a couple of decent young strikers. They need to be complimented by some experience, if it's not Rooney then Benzema would be a good choice assuming his troubles are behind him.

Lord TSC

https://twitter.com/mohamedbouhafsi/status/722444097378717696?s=09

Le #PSG n'a pas approché José Mourinho ! #RMCsport
(PSG has not approached Jose).

ElChe32

Blanc signed a two year extension back in February. Can't see Jose anywhere else than Old Trafford come July.

54and56

ElChe32 wrote: »

Blanc signed a two year extension back in February. Can't see Jose anywhere else than Old Trafford come July.

Arsenal - you heard it here first (or 101st!!)

jayo26

Lvg has said that Shaw is doing great and is back doing fitness training but not been near a football coach which probably means he aint to the point of ball and contact training with oldest of team. We probably won't see him back this season in first team anyway so hopefully he be fit and strong come pre season.

Liam McPoyle

jayo26 wrote: »

Lvg has said that Shaw is doing great and is back doing fitness training but not been near a football coach which probably means he aint to the point of ball and contact training with oldest of team. We probably won't see him back this season in first team anyway so hopefully he be fit and strong come pre season.

It would be absolute insanity to risk him this side the summer. I'm hoping he stays in rehab so Woy can't get his hands on him for the Euros.

jayo26

Saul T Nutzz wrote: »

It would be absolute insanity to risk him this side the summer. I'm hoping he stays in rehab so Woy can't get his hands on him for the Euros.

By the looks of it thats what is happening. Summer off playing fifa with memphis do him a world of good.

Lord TSC

https://twitter.com/RedIssue/status/722153332983238656

MUFC ticket office source tells us: "2017 season ticket sales only 3500 as of last week - well down on last year. New sales non-existent."

The general gist seems to be a massive number of regular season ticket holders have been refusing to renew their tickets, citing the boring football at OT this season, and that people wont renew till Jose comes in. This follows the announcement yesterday that United had extended the renewal deadlines for season ticket holders.

Liam McPoyle

Lord TSC wrote: »

https://twitter.com/RedIssue/status/722153332983238656

MUFC ticket office source tells us: "2017 season ticket sales only 3500 as of last week - well down on last year. New sales non-existent."

The general gist seems to be a massive number of regular season ticket holders have been refusing to renew their tickets, citing the boring football at OT this season, and that people wont renew till Jose comes in. This follows the announcement yesterday that United had extended the renewal deadlines for season ticket holders.

It would appear the board are only interested in the financial side of the club, hopefully they will finally sit up and take notice.

Korat

The Glazers have already put the squeeze on expenditure to protect their dividend so this news won't be well received.

http://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/639505/Exclusive-Glazer-family-demands-Old-Trafford-cuts-Manchester-United (..old story from January)

There's some merit to the notion that LVG won't be sacked until CL qualification is mathematically impossible in order to save on his payoff.

Jayop

Korat wrote: »

The Glazers have already put the squeeze on expenditure to protect their dividend so this news won't be well received.

http://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/639505/Exclusive-Glazer-family-demands-Old-Trafford-cuts-Manchester-United (..old story from January)

There's some merit to the notion that LVG won't be sacked until CL qualification is mathematically impossible in order to save on his payoff.

That story, in particular the quote provided by "an insider" reads like utter bollocks.

bucketybuck

Korat wrote: »

There's some merit to the notion that LVG won't be sacked until CL qualification is mathematically impossible in order to save on his payoff.

There really isn't.

I posted before about how illogical it would be to risk the far larger CL prize money just to save a few million in payoff money, something that just wouldn't make any financial sense whatsoever. These latest rumors are of a similar nature, why would the club want to risk the season ticket income just to save on a payout to Van Gaal?

Woodward may not know football but I will give him the credit of knowing finance, there is no way he can be blind to the fact that in trying to avoid a pay-off to Van Gaal United would be risking far more revenue in other areas.

The_Kew_Tour

My dad is not renewing his season ticket until new manager he told me. Surprised it's going so bad.

It's not the defeats it's the manner of them

20 Times 20 Times

Raging they extended I'm looking for two tickets in certain area that won't be available until the clear down happens

Korat

Apart from selling a lot of advertising there isn't a lot that Woodward has got right. He's in a tricky position as the Glazer's man in that he has to please them first and learn how to be an effective CE of a football club at the same time.

If the Glazers prioritised the football team then Woodward would have been gone before Moyes. Woodward is focused on making them money so he stays.

I imagine his position has been of taking advice from Fergie etc. and working hard to sell the club in advertising deals off past successes but the failure on the pitch is coming home to roost. The Glazers have no doubt questioned some club expenditures around the edges but eventually they'll start restricting the playing staff costs.

Man Utd is a cash cow to the Glazers so they're not so concerned about the prestige of winning as Abrahmovic and the Arab oil barons but the steady revenue steam an underfunded but reasonably successful team can generate like Arsenal.

jayo26

Anyone a Newcastle fan for the night? I am begrudgingly hate to see the Geordies celebrating.