Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2016 - Mod Warning link in OP 20/3

Flint Fredstone

See, even Mitch is positive.

The_Kew_Tour

Choo choo!!!

bucketybuck

Flint Fredstone wrote: »

How is it stringing him along? If he's not deemed to be good enough by the manager then that's just the way it is.

If he isn't good enough then what is he doing on the bench? Is he considered a viable option or is he not?

If he is on the bench and is considered an option, then why is he not used considering the players in front of him were playing terribly? The likes of Depay and Mata were putrid at times this season and yet Periera never got a look in, so why is he even there?

Maybe you have never played a sport before, but most people that have know full well the corrosive effects to morale of sitting on the bench behind underperforming players without ever getting a chance, especially when you consider that other, younger and less established players are thrown in no problem. You don't think the situation could make Periera doubt himself, question himself as to why he doesn't get a chance, or make him feel more pressure to perform in the five minutes he gets here and there?

And you don't think the same might possibly have applied to Wilson before he was shipped out?

Alf Veedersane

Mitch Connor wrote: »

So - how do we reckon we will get on in March?

I think we'll win March. It's going to be that good.

Your Airbag

So a very good & interesting week UTD just had. It leads to a few discussion points.

LVG said something very interesting in his post match bbc interview after the Arsenal victory. He was asked was he surprised by the kids coming in and doing so well and he said "not really, this is why i like to work with smaller squads so I can give youth a chance, I have done this at all my clubs".

Well that statement really stood out to me and it leads towards some questions.

1) LVG only brought the majority of the kids in recently due to our injury crisis, yes he has started others before and not due to injury, and in total I think its 11 reserve players he has given a start to since he took over, thats showing good faith in youth but again the likes of McNair and Blackett were only in because of injuries. But why does it take an injury crisis for the recent batch to come in and do so well as opposed to the mainly static displays we have seen from more senior squad selections?

The smaller squad issue is a huge problem for UTD fans, if the reason LVG likes doing this is for youth to come through then why has he mainly picked senior players with only the odd reserve player getting the nod when all are fit (Lingrad mainly). I have heard it said before LVG lucked into this form due to injuries and also did likewise last season at a similar point. Its definitely a plausible theory.

2) Should LVG continue with this current selection even with a fully fit squad to pick from? Rashford has been a revelation, Varela has been awesome and Tim Fosu-Mensah looks like he has ability.

Lingard I wanted dropped as I thought the experiment wasn't working but he's show slight signs of improvement lately. The pace and fearlessness the youth have offered has also improved the play of some of the other squad members. Mata and Memphis for example look much more free with pace and directness around them. Herrera too.

I think Varela and Rashers should be kept on as they offer pace and directness. Also maybe see how Mensah handles a full 90. Rashers and Varela have given us two great selection options, I don't see why that should be stopped.

3) If we go with youth (class of 16 anyone?) who gets cut? Is there a balance to be struck to keep the squad happy

---

DDG

---

Varela --- Smalling --- Blind --- Rojo
Schneiderlin/Basti --- Herrera
Lingard -- Mata/Rooney -- Memphis/Martial
Rashford

Mitch Connor

March 2nd - home vs Watford
March 6th - away vs West Brom
March 10th - away vs Liverpool (EL)
March 13th - home vs West Ham (FAC)
March 17th - home vs Liverpool (EL)
March 20th - away vs City.

I reckon the Watford and West Brom games are must wins matches. I reckon the City game is the only game LVG could afford to lose without coping a servious amount of flak (not that it matters) - going through in the Cups vs Liverpool and West Ham is important. Liverpool only because it is Liverpool though, imo. If we were playing anyone else it would be a low priority game I think.

Mitch Connor

Mitch Connor wrote: »

So - how do we reckon we will get on in March?

Win every game and we will be in a very good position I reckon!

Through the FA Cup semi, EL quaters and a much better chance of getting CL football.

Can we win every game.... sure why not! Lets start with keeping this little run going and stuffing Watford tomorrow.

Won't be easy away from home.
Good news is that Smalling & Martial look set for a return.
Going to be interesting as to what happens the midfiled considering Carrick will no longer be needed as a makeshift CB if Smalling slots back in.
Rojos injury is also no serious.

The_Kew_Tour

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Won't be easy away from home.
Good news is that Smalling & Martial look set for a return.
Going to be interesting as to what happens the midfiled considering Carrick will no longer be needed as a makeshift CB if Smalling slots back in.
Rojos injury is also no serious.

We're at home tomorrow, away to West Brom then Sunday

Mitch Connor

Your Airbag wrote: »

---

DDG

---

Varela --- Smalling --- Blind --- Rojo
Schneiderlin/Basti --- Herrera
Lingard -- Mata/Rooney -- Memphis/Martial
Rashford

I would think Varela has done enough to keep his place over Darmian, Valencia or Young.

The only change I would make is Martial up front in place of Rashford. Rashford has done well, but I think a longer span of performances is required before he would become a first choice player. Could just be a flash in the pan whose finding everything is just rolling for him at the moment.

I would keep Carrick, Schweinsteiger, Fellaini and Rooney out of the team with the current front 6 (though Martial in for Rashford) retaining their places in the team and positions on the pitch. Mata playing centrally at 10, for example, is better than Rooney at the moment and better than Mata wide right.

I would, and have, argued his use of young players has been forced rather than planned and paced development of the players and his play that it was all part of some master plan is annoying.

Flint Fredstone

bucketybuck wrote: »

If he isn't good enough then what is he doing on the bench? Is he considered a viable option or is he not?

If he is on the bench and is considered an option, then why is he not used considering the players in front of him were playing terribly? The likes of Depay and Mata were putrid at times this season and yet Periera never got a look in, so why is he even there?

Maybe you have never played a sport before, but most people that have know full well the corrosive effects to morale of sitting on the bench behind underperforming players without ever getting a chance, especially when you consider that other, younger and less established players are thrown in no problem. You don't think the situation could make Periera doubt himself, question himself as to why he doesn't get a chance, or make him feel more pressure to perform in the five minutes he gets here and there?

And you don't think the same might possibly have applied to Wilson before he was shipped out?

Players sit on the bench every week and get feck all game time. It's a small, depleted squad, surprised you're using that line of arguing because you've been banging on about that all season iirc.

I'm not even going to bother getting into the psychological effects on a player. It's the managers job to pick what he considers the best team, any mental byproduct of that is just an unfortunate reality for a lot of young players.

bucketybuck

Mitch Connor wrote: »

I would, and have, argued his use of young players has been forced rather than planned and paced development of the players and his play that it was all part of some master plan is annoying.

To add, he is welcome to prove us wrong on this. All he has to do is keep using those young players when the injuries clear up.

I know what I think will happen.

bucketybuck

Flint Fredstone wrote: »

I'm not even going to bother getting into the psychological effects on a player.

Of course you aren't, that would involve actually debating my point.

Flint Fredstone

bucketybuck wrote: »

Of course you aren't, that would involve actually debating my point.

And you accuse me of skipping over points :rolleyes:

I've said it's an unfortunate byproduct of the game. He has no right to think he should be getting regular game time. If everybody is fit he might not even make the bench.

jayo26

Well this place escalated quickly..... No need to look at the Arsenal thread for entertainment now.

bucketybuck

Flint Fredstone wrote: »

He has no right to think he should be getting regular game time.

Strawman.

Mitch Connor

bucketybuck wrote: »

To add, he is welcome to prove us wrong on this. All he has to do is keep using those young players when the injuries clear up.

I know what I think will happen.

Indeed - CBJ over Rojo at LB is one you can argue on merit and I can't see an argument for dropping Varela for anyone unless Darmian can remember how to football again.

I think Rashford should retain his place in the match day squad but I would be fine with Martial coming back in for him.

If we go back to the ponderous central midfield of BS and MS, dumping Herrera out or Fellaini comes back in over any of the current midfield selections it will be disappointing.

I don't think any of Riley, Weir, Love, McNair have done anything to have a place over current member of the first team squad.

Flint Fredstone

bucketybuck wrote: »

Strawman.

So should Weir, Riley, Fosu-Mensah, Love etc all expect to be given plenty of minutes now? I mean they've been on the bench and played lately, it might affect their career if we don't get them on. Or is it just Pereira because you rate him?

bucketybuck

Flint Fredstone wrote: »

So should Weir, Riley, Fosu-Mensah, Love etc all expect to be given plenty of minutes now?

More straw.

beno619

Your Airbag wrote: »

So a very good & interesting week UTD just had. It leads to a few discussion points.

LVG said something very interesting in his post match bbc interview after the Arsenal victory. He was asked was he surprised by the kids coming in and doing so well and he said "not really, this is why i like to work with smaller squads so I can give youth a chance, I have done this at all my clubs".

Well that statement really stood out to me and it leads towards some questions.

1) LVG only brought the majority of the kids in recently due to our injury crisis, yes he has started others before and not due to injury, and in total I think its 11 reserve players he has given a start to since he took over, thats showing good faith in youth but again the likes of McNair and Blackett were only in because of injuries. But why does it take an injury crisis for the recent batch to come in and do so well as opposed to the mainly static displays we have seen from more senior squad selections?

Great post.

This is something certain section's have been calling for.

He created a small squad and claims its because he wants to give kids a chance but in the end we shoehorned players everywhere.

If he actually used the youngsters throughout the season, there would be fewer complaints about his squad management, it would have been harder to criticise him if he had actually been giving youth a chance.

ElChe32

Maximus Alexander

Obviously if you're interested in developing youth, the only rational way to do so would be to drop all your fit senior players and play the youth team instead. It would be madness to just do something along the lines of clearing out most your senior backups relying on youth players in those roles instead. Go hard or go home.

Mitch Connor

Flint Fredstone wrote: »

So should Weir, Riley, Fosu-Mensah, Love etc all expect to be given plenty of minutes now? I mean they've been on the bench and played lately, it might affect their career if we don't get them on. Or is it just Pereira because you rate him?

Fosu-Mensah is the only one of them I don't think should be looking to leave United.

THe rest have seen little competitive football and are 20/21. If they want to progress as footballers, they need to move elsewhere and get some proper football in. U21 football is rubbish and of little use to player like Pereira, Januzaj - or even Weir, Riley or Love at this point in their careers. Can be used to maintain fitness but the quality is low so they won't improve much.

Fosu-Mensah is only 18, so has a bit more time on the develpment side at youth levels. I do think he should be looking at a loan, or some game time at United, next season though. His domination of U18 and U21 at his age means more U21 for the next two years (like Riley et al) will be of little more benefit.

If LVG had no real plan to integrate, rotate or use Pereira - he should have let him go on loan in the summer or January at least. another few months of bench sitting will be of no use to the lad. A standout for the Brazil U20s last season, he needed game time this year to kick on, imo.

Flint Fredstone

bucketybuck wrote: »

More straw.

If Pereira was good enough for him he would be playing.

Kerrydude1981

Tomorrow nights game is going to be interesting,we have seen Utd struggle to break down teams like Watford at home this season,I'm sure Watford will set up to keep things tight and try and nick something,

Its going to be a good test of this new lease of life Utd we have seen in the past week.

The pace and the attitude has to be kept up.

Kill them early,go for the throat.

Mitch Connor

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Obviously if you're interested in developing youth, the only rational way to do so would be to drop all your fit senior players and play the youth team instead. It would be madness to just do something along the lines of clearing out most your senior backups relying on youth players in those roles instead. Go hard or go home.

Or, when your senior players are (a) tired or (b) under-performing *cough*MATA*cough you could rotate in a young player into their position, rather than relying on the same first 11 players in every single game and then whinge when players get injured.

You assertion that the only way a young player should ever thing to get into the team is through injury is just stupid. Rotate and rest players - show some player and squad management skills.

Maximus Alexander

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Or, when your senior players are (a) tired or (b) under-performing *cough*MATA*cough you could rotate in a young player into their position, rather than relying on the same first 11 players in every single game and then whinge when players get injured.

You assertion that the only way a young player should ever thing to get into the team is through injury is just stupid. Rotate and rest players - show some player and squad management skills.

I never made that assertion, but while we're calling things stupid, it's a pretty fitting description of your notion that not doing an absolutely perfect job of developing youth equates to not developing, or having no intention to develop, youth at all.

Nalz

Hi guys

Is Martial back tomorrow tonight?

Mitch Connor

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

I never made that assertion, but while we're calling things stupid, it's a pretty fitting description of your notion that not doing an absolutely perfect job of developing youth equates to not developing, or having no intention to develop, youth at all.

:rolleyes:
You made that assertion several times last week.

As I said last week as well - it MAY have been his intention, but his actual actions over the course of the season are far more important than what he intended - so his unwillingness to use youth players unless forced to over the course of the season shows, imo, that he had no actual faith in the young players to play. If he did have faith, he would have had less problem resting tired or under performing players for the young lads.

bucketybuck

Flint Fredstone wrote: »

If Pereira was good enough for him he would be playing.

Interesting stat for anybody else who understood my original point.

By my count Periera has been an unused substitute 24 times this season. In a side where the players in his position have been absolutely rubbish. He has come on as a late sub in 8 games.

24 times he has sat on the bench scratching as others struggle to perform.

If he isn't good enough, why is he even there? If he is there, why isn't he given more chances? And what do you think this situation does for his development?

Maximus Alexander

Mitch Connor wrote: »

:rolleyes:
You made that assertion several times last week.

You could probably pull up a quote pretty easily then.

bucketybuck

Mitch Connor wrote: »

You assertion that the only way a young player should ever thing to get into the team is through injury is just stupid.

Wasn't that rubbish thoroughly debunked already?

Maximus Alexander

bucketybuck wrote: »

Wasn't that rubbish thoroughly debunked already?

I doubt it, unless the pair of you are getting together and 'debunking' things that nobody said.

bucketybuck

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

I doubt it, unless the pair of you are getting together and 'debunking' things that nobody said.

You doubt wrong. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume there are hundreds of posts you didn't read.

Mitch Connor

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

You could probably pull up a quote pretty easily then.

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Why would he be dropping more talented and experienced senior players to start academy products instead? This almost never happens - there has to be a reason to drop your first string players, and more often than not it's down to injury.

After 3 seconds of looking.

Our debate centred on this point - over a number of posts.

StringerBell

CBJ, Varela and Rashford have taken their chance and it would be disappointing if they were not kept involved. Lingard seems to have cemented his position though I am not in awe of him, Memphis is playing his way into form which is also nice, the hunger those young players bring rubs off on the rest of the team too so it is important when your in a fight.

Maximus Alexander

bucketybuck wrote: »

You doubt wrong. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume there are hundreds of posts you didn't read.

Yeah I suppose it's a reasonable assumption that I didn't read my own alleged assertion. :rolleyes: Must have slipped by me when I was allegedly typing it.

Flint Fredstone

bucketybuck wrote: »

Interesting stat for anybody else who understood my original point.

By my count Periera has been an unused substitute 24 times this season. In a side where the players in his position have been absolutely rubbish. He has come on as a late sub in 8 games.

24 times he has sat on the bench scratching as others struggle to perform.

If he isn't good enough, why is he even there? If he is there, why isn't he given more chances? And what do you think this situation does for his development?

Who would he have there instead? Maybe Weir? Then you would be arguing his case?

Go through most clubs match day squad and you'll find players that get little game time. I think it was yourself who mentioned how poorly Mata played, Mata was out on the right, Lingard and Young have been playing there in his place or when he's been substituted. Martial has played on the left instead of Memphis.
Where do you want Pereira to play?

Maximus Alexander

Mitch Connor wrote: »

After 3 seconds of looking.

Our debate centred on this point - over a number of posts.

I was waiting for exactly that post to come back. It's a massive failure of reading comprehension to claim that this:

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Why would he be dropping more talented and experienced senior players to start academy products instead? This almost never happens - there has to be a reason to drop your first string players, and more often than not it's down to injury.

Means the same as this:

Mitch Connor wrote: »

the only way a young player should ever thing to get into the team is through injury

bucketybuck

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Yeah I suppose it's a reasonable assumption that I didn't read my own alleged assertion. :rolleyes: Must have slipped by me when I was allegedly typing it.

It would appear so.

Lord TSC

Marca saying Rodriguez and Isco are available at Madrid, with United the most likely destination for the former.

Your Airbag

Mitch Connor wrote: »

I would think Varela has done enough to keep his place over Darmian, Valencia or Young.

The only change I would make is Martial up front in place of Rashford. Rashford has done well, but I think a longer span of performances is required before he would become a first choice player. Could just be a flash in the pan whose finding everything is just rolling for him at the moment.

I would, and have, argued his use of young players has been forced rather than planned and paced development of the players and his play that it was all part of some master plan is annoying.

I don't think anyone or even LVG is trying to play it off as a master plan, he has said some players have had to come in due to injury but his comments about giving youth a chance are also true, in reality its a mix of an injury crisis and LVGs policy of giving youth a go.

Yes Varela has been a revelation, he showed a lot of maturity dealing with Sanchez after such an early booking on Sunday. He looks like he has bags of potential.

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Indeed - CBJ over Rojo at LB is one you can argue on merit and I can't see an argument for dropping Varela for anyone unless Darmian can remember how to football again.

I think Rashford should retain his place in the match day squad but I would be fine with Martial coming back in for him.

I had forgotten about CBJ, another player who has been excellent and someone LVG has showed faith in. The youth prospects are really exciting.

There was a lot of worry a few weeks back about City having a superior youth academy and that they would overtake us. We have learnt that the youth setup at UTD is in good shape and producing talented prospects. With further improvements to take place we are still ahead of every team in the country and can continue to be the envy of the UK and Europe in terms of bringing young players through.

Nalz

Nalz wrote: »

Hi guys

Is Martial back tomorrow tonight?

He's in contention. Not 100% cert though.
Think the presser is later today and we should learn more.

deaddonkey15

Lord TSC wrote: »

Marca saying Rodriguez and Isco are available at Madrid, with United the most likely destination for the former.

I think I'd rather have Isco.

Nalz

Hi guys

Is Martial back tomorrow tonight?

Cantona's Collars

Lord TSC wrote: »

Marca saying Rodriguez and Isco are available at Madrid, with United the most likely destination for the former.

They were discussing it on Off The Ball last night,seems the 2 aren't in Zidane's plans.

Flint Fredstone

Flint Fredstone wrote: »

Where do you want Pereira to play?

@bucketybuck Well?

Mitch Connor

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

I was waiting for exactly that post to come back. It's a massive failure of reading comprehension to claim that this:



Means the same as this:

So when you said a player getting into the team for reason other than injury, what did you mean? When we argued players like butt and Beckham making debuts and appearances came when simply resting players, and you said you didn't remember but it could have been because of injury, what were you arguing?

Cantona's Collars

Has to be posted.

bucketybuck

Flint Fredstone wrote: »

@bucketybuck Well?

Really? Why don't you answer a few questions asked...

If he isn't good enough, why is he even there? If he is there, why isn't he given more chances? And what do you think this situation does for his development?

Maximus Alexander

Mitch Connor wrote: »

So when you said a player getting into the team for reason other than injury, what did you mean? When we argued players like butt and Beckham making debuts and appearances came when simply resting players, and you said you didn't remember but it could have been because of injury, what were you arguing?

Exactly what I appeared to be arguing, that it's not at all unusual for young players to get their first starts filling in for injured senior players. You might say it's pretty common. What I certainly wasn't arguing is that it's the only way they do or should get into the team, which is how you've inexplicably misrepresented it.

Look, I've spelled out how I feel about this and I think I've been fairly reasonable about it. I don't know why you seem to want to make it into a pitched battle. You seem to think that LVG should get no credit for relying on youths because he didn't do it exactly the right way. I broadly agree with you that he could have handled things better, and about some of the ways in which he got it wrong, but because I don't exactly agree with you we have to be a loggerheads for some reason. I think that about sums it up, I don't think we need to keep going around in circles.