Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2016 - Mod Warning link in OP 20/3

adox

Pro. F wrote: »

As long as a good manager is appointed in July I don't really care whether Van Gaal is sacked now or not. He is delivering very little at the moment and I strongly suspect that whatever caretaker we would replace him with would do the same. We'll finish somewhere in the range of 10th to 6th and we won't win any cups. That would almost certainly be the same with a caretaker in charge instead of LVG.

It would be too little too late at this stage but I do think there would be practical and positive reasons for removing him.

Putting aside the fact that he deserves it and should have gone long ago, sacking him before the season is out would send somewhat of a signal that the standard of performance and management is ultimately unacceptable to the club.
It would at least jolt the club as a whole out of this seemingly sleep walking attitude of mediocrity where no one is held accountable and where inaction is king.
It would remove the person in charge of the playing staff largely responsible for the mess the team finds itself in and his influence over the club. It would cut the chord to his culture of drab football, mismanagement etc which I can only see as a good thing.

It may not drastically change where Utd finish this season but it would draw a line under the shambolic reign and may give the players a boost and a freedom to play some different football, a chance to regain some confidence in themselves.

Ultimately he should be sacked because he deserves to be sacked. I can't see any positives for keeping him on but I can see negatives.

Whatever happens the club have one almighty job on their hands to get th club functioning again at the top level. It may take more than Van Gaals head to see that happen and I fear that won't happen and the can will be kicked further down the road.

Korat

Jurgen Klopp, Carlo Ancelotti, Pep Guardiola and Jose Mourinho, the most sought after and successful coaches in the world all available and changing positions in the last 6 months.

Man Utd supposedly the biggest club in the world are sitting on a coach, who wasn't even 3rd choice initially for the job, watching the best coaches get picked up by rivals.

If the club want an old boy to coach then Sparky or Brucie would be better than Giggs at least in the short term.

Pro. F

BMMachine wrote: »

christ if thats the accepted line about that performance you guys are in deeper trouble than I thought. did you see him repeatedly drift into bad positions? repeatedly played around? repeatedly left out of forward moves?

I saw all of that. I also saw him showing good defensive positioning and intelligence. The thing is, at this stage I am extremely familiar with United's defensive scheme (team shape, marking assignments, etc) and attacking patterns and so I'm painfully aware of the flaws and what that causes on the pitch. The box-to-box CM has too much ground to cover, trying to link attacks far up the pitch and trying to cover back when possession is lost and every single player who has played that position has struggled when ever United have played the more direct style (compared to the possession oriented style we often play). This also makes our defensive CM and our back-line look bad.

I have an important question for you. How come you haven't addressed the positives I pointed out about his performance? You asked, repeatedly, what others had seen him do that was so good. And when you got a detailed response you just responded with different questions. Why?

BMMachine wrote: »

repeatedly run into players? elbow Can while on a yellow? playing against him was far far far too easy for Liverpool tonight. Sure utd stunk but to say that THAT was the best performance? good lord

I think you must have missed the bit where I said he got a bit too physical. In case there is any doubt, I will make it clear for you. I think Fellaini's penchant for dirty play reduces his usefulness as a player.

I did not say that was the best performance. DDG was the best performance. Out of the outfield players I would put Fellaini at, or near, the top. You might disagree, but that would hardly be of any consequence to me, since you have said, with supposed seriousness, that he "did nothing well."

v3ttel

Is it July yet?

I had a feeling we were going to play complete rubbish. LVG is done one way or another, it's just annoying that we're going to have to wait through another couple of months of nothingness before we see a change for the better.

It just has to be Jose or we're going to have to accept mediocrity for a long, long time.

BMMachine

Pro. F wrote: »

I saw all of that. I also saw him showing good defensive positioning and intelligence. The thing is, at this stage I am extremely familiar with United's defensive scheme (team shape, marking assignments, etc) and attacking patterns and so I'm painfully aware of the flaws and what that causes on the pitch. The box-to-box CM has too much ground to cover, trying to link attacks far up the pitch and trying to cover back when possession is lost and every single player who has played that position has struggled when ever United have played the more direct style (compared to the possession oriented style we often play). This also makes our defensive CM and our back-line look bad.

I have an important question for you. How come you haven't addressed the positives I pointed out about his performance? You asked, repeatedly, what others had seen him do that was so good. And when you got a detailed response you just responded with different questions. Why?



I think you must have missed the bit where I said he got a bit too physical. In case there is any doubt, I will make it clear for you. I think Fellaini's penchant for dirty play reduces his usefulness as a player.

I did not say that was the best performance. DDG was the best performance. Out of the outfield players I would put Fellaini at, or near, the top. You might disagree, but that would hardly be of any consequence to me, since you have said, with supposed seriousness, that he "did nothing well."

cool, think what you want. I didnt see much of what you said. I'll just quote Daniel Storey from football365 and you can take up your point with him:

" Whoever Van Gaal’s replacement is and whenever he arrives, forcing Fellaini out of the club will be an easy way of earning some immediate goodwill. I’d say that this was a good night for the Belgian’s detractors, but is there anyone left but Van Gaal who thinks Fellaini should be starting for United?

The best thing that can be said about Fellaini’s night at Anfield is that he was not sent off, which was only really down to fortune. He should not have been booked for his ‘challenge’ on Clyne, but still committed four other fouls. All could have been worthy of a booking.

In an attacking sense, Fellaini was the albatross around United’s neck. Defensive midfielders and defenders continually looked for his chest or head without any modicum of success, until a cross finally found him in the penalty area seven yards from goal. Fellaini headed wide, naturally.

No shots on target, no chances created, one tackle for every half an hour played and 12 misplaced passes out of 44, most of which were played short, backwards or both. What is Fellaini supposed to be offering other than a lightning rod for the ire of every United supporter in the land?

“I have to say that Fellaini was one of the best players on the pitch,” said Van Gaal after the game. I really could go on all night about just how many different types of b*llocks that statement is. A baffling managerial reign, encapsulated."

People quoting Football 365 in a serious discussion on football :eek:
I didnt think it was possible but that cheered me right up

secman

"And the symbol of all United's struggles was the hopeless figure of Marouane Fellaini, taunted for his Everton connections and fortunate to stay on the pitch after being a consistent offender all night, even ending the game by appearing to lay out Emre Can in an aerial challenge."

Phil Mcnulty seems to left the rose tinted glasses off tonight too.☺

God we are getting desperate when United fans actually rate Fellaini. .. beggars belief.

Liam O

secman wrote: »

"And the symbol of all United's struggles was the hopeless figure of Marouane Fellaini, taunted for his Everton connections and fortunate to stay on the pitch after being a consistent offender all night, even ending the game by appearing to lay out Emre Can in an aerial challenge."

Phil Mcnulty seems to left the rose tinted glasses off tonight too.☺

God we are getting desperate when United fans actually rate Fellaini. .. beggars belief.

He plays for the number 1 ranked team in world football?

BMMachine

Deleted User wrote: »

People quoting Football 365 in a serious discussion on football :eek:
I didnt think it was possible but that cheered me right up

yup. its accurate, sorry if that destroys the imagined view you had of Fellaini's performance tonight.

patmac

In fairness to Van Gaal he has us 6th in the league and I wouldn't be confident of beating anyone bar Villa maybe. The only good thing about this season is the value backing our opponents. West Ham @ 13/2 with both teams to score anyone?

adox

secman wrote: »

"And the symbol of all United's struggles was the hopeless figure of Marouane Fellaini, taunted for his Everton connections and fortunate to stay on the pitch after being a consistent offender all night, even ending the game by appearing to lay out Emre Can in an aerial challenge."

Phil Mcnulty seems to left the rose tinted glasses off tonight too.☺

God we are getting desperate when United fans actually rate Fellaini. .. beggars belief.

Whatever your opinion of Fellaini(or any player),having a default opinion of "he's crap and that's it for every game" gives your opinion less credit. If you can't acknowledge when a player you don't rate has a good game compared to his team mates then your opinion is completely biased and tainted and cant honestly be taken seriously.

It's unfortunate that Fellaini has become such a central debate on here, while everything else in the club is crumbling. It's distracting from the real issues.
It's also bizzare that he is being singled out in this current period of utter mediocrity from top to bottom. I'd also suggest that some people's personal dislike of him have skewed their ability to critic the player while others are just up to mischief.

BMMachine

adox wrote: »

Whatever your opinion of Fellaini(or any player),having a default opinion of "he's crap and that's it for every game" gives your opinion less credit. If you can't acknowledge when a player you don't rate has a good game compared to his team mates then your opinion is completely biased and tainted and cant honestly be taken seriously.

It's unfortunate that Fellaini has become such a central debate on here, while everything else in the club is crumbling. It's distracting from the real issues.
It's also bizzare that he is being singled out in this current period of utter mediocrity from top to bottom. I'd also suggest that some people's personal dislike of him have skewed their ability to critic the player while others are just up to mischief.

or your analysis on his performance is just incorrect.

Pro. F

adox wrote: »

It would be too little too late at this stage but I do think there would be practical and positive reasons for removing him.

Putting aside the fact that he deserves it and should have gone long ago, sacking him before the season is out would send somewhat of a signal that the standard of performance and management is ultimately unacceptable to the club.
It would at least jolt the club as a whole out of this seemingly sleep walking attitude of mediocrity where no one is held accountable and where inaction is king.
It would remove the person in charge of the playing staff largely responsible for the mess the team finds itself in and his influence over the club. It would cut the chord to his culture of drab football, mismanagement etc which I can only see as a good thing.

It may not drastically change where Utd finish this season but it would draw a line under the shambolic reign and may give the players a boost and a freedom to play some different football, a chance to regain some confidence in themselves.

Ultimately he should be sacked because he deserves to be sacked. I can't see any positives for keeping him on but I can see negatives.

Whatever happens the club have one almighty job on their hands to get th club functioning again at the top level. It may take more than Van Gaals head to see that happen and I fear that won't happen and the can will be kicked further down the road.

Imo deserve doesn't have anything to do with it. I think seeking justice on LVG would only be a distraction and we'd be better off trying to do the most effective thing - in terms of short term results, longer term effects on the squad and money saved/made.

Maybe the most effective thing would be to sack him and replace him with a caretaker, but I'm not so sure. At the moment he has the team performing like an upper mid-table team. I'm really not sure that we would get any caretaker who would do better than that. Maybe, as you say, if the board had moved a few months ago there would have been a better chance. I don't know, I'm just not convinced. So that makes me less annoyed about LVG keeping his job.

With regards to drawing a line under LVG's bad reign and giving the players some confidence. I think that if we are appointing a properly skilled manager in the summer, that will happen regardless. And if we appoint a caretaker we risk sapping their confidence more (if he turns out to be equally as bad as LVG in terms of results, then that might cause some additional pressure).

In terms of positives to keeping LVG, they are very small too. One thing going for it is that it shows the players they probably won't be able to get a manager sacked. They've seen how big a wobble a manager can go through (and LVG's wobbles have almost certainly cost him his job at this stage) and yet the board won't rush to sack him. So the players know that there's no point throwing a strop or complaining to the press, because it will just make them look bad and it won't speed up the process.

I don't think any of these arguments, for or against getting in a caretaker, are particularly strong. So overall I'm just not pushed about it either way.

Pro. F

Deleted User wrote: »

People quoting Football 365 in a serious discussion on football :eek:
I didnt think it was possible but that cheered me right up

It comes as absolutely no surprise to be honest.

BMMachine

BMMachine wrote: »

yup. its accurate, sorry if that destroys the imagined view you had of Fellaini's performance tonight.

It is written for kids and it isn't accurate, its lazy pathetic journalism and using it really weakens your non arguement.
But as I said it is super funny you tried to use it so cheers for the pick me up

adox

BMMachine wrote: »

or your analysis on his performance is just incorrect.

That's always a possibility but I don't believe so tonight. I was addressing the recurring issue on this thread from some Utd supporters that pick out Fellaini as a disgrace etc after a game even when he's been far from the worst player on the team.

Speaking of analysis, you said he did nothing all night and Prof countered with examples of what he did do, which you seemed to ignore or even acknowledge and then cut and pasted someone else opinion in.

Why ask him the question in the first place so?

BMMachine

Deleted User wrote: »

It is written for kids and it isn't accurate, its lazy pathetic journalism and using it really weakens your non arguement.
But as I said it is super funny you tried so cheers for the pick me up

incorrect. "written for kids" really? thats all you got? lazy and pathetic journalism - the cliche police are calling, they want their phrases back. Its far more accurate than the accepted line you seem to be going on that that was anything other than a rank and terrible performance. And if distorting reality picks you up then great, live in your imagination mon amie - dont stop believing.

BMMachine

Pro. F wrote: »

It comes as absolutely no surprise to be honest.

ooohhh cutting.
hmmm, im going to go with the professional analyst over your opinion.

adox wrote:

Speaking of analysis, you said he did nothing all night and Prof countered with examples of what he did do, which you seemed to ignore or even acknowledge and then cut and pasted someone else opinion in.

oh I thought I did. My thing was, Prof was just plain wrong. His analysis and his examples arent actually things that happened.

you can live in your imaginations, you can say "oh well Fellaini wasn't that bad" or whatever, but the stats speak and the analysts speak. you want to build upon an accepted line of distorted reality? go for it, its what a lot of fans do. But at the end of the day - he was terrible, that won't change no matter how you or anybody else spins it. If you think otherwise, you aren't good at analysing the game of football. That may sound blunt but the theme is distorting reality so Im not giving any wiggle room


but honestly, you are right. (think it was you anyway) its kind of a here nor there. I fully expect that garbage player to be gone come august. There are far more problems that need to be focussed on. The fact that heavy investment hasn't fixed anything and in fact the one buy you guys did make that put out a genuine statement of intent (Di Maria) was sold far too quickly and not given near enough time. Theres something rotten in the state of Manchester United for that to happen and it needs to be fixed fast

BMMachine

BMMachine wrote: »

incorrect. "written for kids" really? thats all you got? lazy and pathetic journalism - the cliche police are calling, they want their phrases back. Its far more accurate than the accepted line you seem to be going on that that was anything other than a rank and terrible performance. And if distorting reality picks you up then great, live in your imagination mon amie - dont stop believing.

Your a funny dude so I'm not going to ignore you, but Im certainly not getting into a back and forth with you I dont want to be dragged down and beat with experience so toodles.

Enjoy taking your football opinions off F365 :pac:

BMMachine

Deleted User wrote: »

Your a funny dude so I'm not going to ignore you, but Im certainly not getting into a back and forth with you I dont want to be dragged down and beat with experience so toodles.

Enjoy taking your football opinions off F365 :pac:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eW4tY8mQ_1o

adox

Pro. F wrote: »

Imo deserve doesn't have anything to do with it. I think seeking justice on LVG would only be a distraction and we'd be better off trying to do the most effective thing - in terms of short term results, longer term effects on the squad and money saved/made.

Yeah when I said"putting to one side that he deserves it" I was parking that out of the debate. I was trying to put that aside as the emotional response to the situation as in "he ****ing deserves sacking for what he's done".

The rest of the points I made are debatable and can be countered as you have. This late in the season I can't even put up a strong argument that sacking him will be of any real benefit to the club.

I just think the idea of that belated, very belated decisive action could see the club teaching itself a little lesson, no matter how small and have an affect on the mindset going forward.

Or maybe it's too late in the evening, I'm too tired and typing pseudo intellectual nonsense!

Pro. F

BMMachine wrote: »

you can live in your imaginations, you can say "oh well Fellaini wasn't that bad" or whatever, but the stats speak and the analysts speak.

What stats are these?

Pro. F

adox wrote: »

Or maybe it's too late in the evening, I'm too tired and typing pseudo intellectual nonsense!

Whatever the truth is, it's not that.

DARK-KNIGHT

What did lvg say post match interview

Missed that

adox

BMMachine wrote: »

ooohhh cutting.
hmmm, im going to go with the professional analyst over your opinion.



oh I thought I did. My thing was, Prof was just plain wrong. His analysis and his examples arent actually things that happened.

you can live in your imaginations, you can say "oh well Fellaini wasn't that bad" or whatever, but the stats speak and the analysts speak. you want to build upon an accepted line of distorted reality? go for it, its what a lot of fans do. But at the end of the day - he was terrible, that won't change no matter how you or anybody else spins it. If you think otherwise, you aren't good at analysing the game of football. That may sound blunt but the theme is distorting reality so Im not giving any wiggle room


but honestly, you are right. (think it was you anyway) its kind of a here nor there. I fully expect that garbage player to be gone come august. There are far more problems that need to be focussed on. The fact that heavy investment hasn't fixed anything and in fact the one buy you guys did make that put out a genuine statement of intent (Di Maria) was sold far too quickly and not given near enough time. Theres something rotten in the state of Manchester United for that to happen and it needs to be fixed fast

You think you are going to be taken seriously posting type of drivel? Distorted reality? spin?

You accuse me of not being good at analysing a game of football because you disagree with me, yet when your initial argument of"Fellaini did nothing but run in to people all game" was countered with another posters analysis, your reply was to cut and paste an online article?????

You don't seem to want to debate the point with any seriousness so there is no point in continuing.

I'm not sure if you are on the wind up or not.

BMMachine

Pro. F wrote: »

What stats are these?

"I saw him receiving the ball in tight spots, keeping possession and passing it to teammates in a way that they were advantaged when they received it. He did that by use of a good first touch, good strength and reasonably tidy passing."

12 misplaced passes out of 44

you are just wrong. I don't know how else to say it or for you to see it.

BMMachine

adox wrote: »

I'm not sure if you are on the wind up or not.

I can categorically say that I am not and I don't like that accusation considering what it means on this forum.

honestly, I dont know.
maybe these hard statistics will show you
http://www.squawka.com/players/marouane-fellaini/stats#performance-score#manchester-united-(current)#europa-league#6#season-2015/2016#180#all-matches#1-3#by-match

adox

BMMachine wrote: »

I can categorically say that I am not and I don't like that accusation considering what it means on this forum.

honestly, I dont know.
maybe these hard statistics will show you
http://www.squawka.com/players/marouane-fellaini/stats#performance-score#manchester-united-(current)#europa-league#6#season-2015/2016#180#all-matches#1-3#by-match

I didn't accuse you, I said Im not sure if you are on the wind up or not.

I don't need to read stats to assess or reasses my opinion of Fellainis second half performance.

If you actually tried to debate or counter the points you disagree with, rather than the underhand comments you might be taken more seriously.

BMMachine

adox wrote:

I'd advise you to watch the second half again and reassess.

there you go. thats you analysing the game and that player incorrectly. no wiggle room. hard facts.

BMMachine

adox wrote: »

I didn't accuse you, I said I. Not sure if you are on the wind up or not.

I don't need to read stats to assess or reasses my opinion of Fellainis second half performance.

If you actually tried to debate or counter the points you disagree with, rather than the underhand comments you might be taken more seriously.

no im just using hard facts, stats and professional opinion to debunk your assessment. why do i need to engage in longwinded stuff when its right there. right. there.


and sorry, what underhanded comments? Im being very direct.

adox

BMMachine wrote: »

no im just using hard facts, stats and professional opinion to debunk your assessment. why to i need to engage in longwinded stuff when its right there. right. there.


and sorry, what underhanded comments? Im being very direct.

I'm off to bed. Hopefully by then you wil have posted your own opinion and reasoning for your heavy critic of Fellaini tonight, rather than copy and pasting stats and articles written by others.

You are being anything but direct. You threw an opinion out there and seem to expect it to go unchallenged and when it does you don't give any counter argument of your own other than "look at the stats" "here's what a pro said about him" "I've debunked your assessment"

It's tiresome in the extreme.

Pro. F

BMMachine wrote: »

"I saw him receiving the ball in tight spots, keeping possession and passing it to teammates in a way that they were advantaged when they received it. He did that by use of a good first touch, good strength and reasonably tidy passing."

12 misplaced passes out of 44

you are just wrong. I don't know how else to say it or for you to see it.

73% pass accuracy for a player who took on the ball in such difficult situations is just not that big of a deal. If United overall were in the game more I would expect a CM to have more passes and a higher accuracy, but given the flow of the game that is just not an issue here.

Are there any other stats you are stats you think prove Fellaini played poorly?

Pro. F

BMMachine wrote: »

no im just using hard facts, stats and professional opinion to debunk your assessment. why do i need to engage in longwinded stuff when its right there. right. there.


and sorry, what underhanded comments? Im being very direct.

lol at the idea that anybody should pay attention to an opinion on football because it comes from a professional journalist. What an utterly idiotic way to think about football.

astonaidan

Its funny, everytime I watch a United game and they lose its always the same people and they will always blame Fellaini.
Come on lads just cause Moyes brought him with him from Everton doesnt mean he needs to be the reason for everything bad that happens, wise up for christ sakes, their is bigger problems than Fellaini at United

Pro. F

BMMachine wrote: »

there you go. thats you analysing the game and that player incorrectly. no wiggle room. hard facts.

And lol at holding up a "performance score" as proof of anything.

BMMachine

adox wrote: »

I'm off to bed. Hopefully by then you wil have posted your own opinion and reasoning for your heavy critic of Fellaini tonight, rather than copy and pasting stats and articles written by others.

You are being anything but direct. You threw an opinion out there and seem to expect it to go unchallenged and when it does you don't give any counter argument of your own other than "look at the stats" "here's what a pro said about him" "I've debunked your assessment"

It's tiresome in the extreme.

incorrect. it was the first thing I brought up in the match thread. I honestly thought "jesus, hes going to get roasted in the man utd thread" but then I see people defending him and being "oh he was our best outfield player" and that honestly confused the hell out of me.
And yes I did say what was wrong with him, you either cant remember or didnt read it properly... maybe you are seeing and saying what you want instead of what actually happened, again? and yeah, those stats & facts & professional opinions do debunk your assessment - you are going to have to deal with that. and yeah, i would imagine it would be tiresome hearing how you are wrong, repeatedly, but you are the guy who continues to put up this line of analysis so arent you just tiring yourself? you cant fight the tide. so yeah, just wrong, incorrect and seem to abhor directness

prof wrote:

lol at the idea that anybody should pay attention to an opinion on football because it comes from a professional journalist. What an utterly idiotic way to think about football.

yeah, better just to make up things. sure if lots of like minded people back you up it means you are right, doesn't it? sure ignore those stats and stuff, they will go away
Duels won - 39% ah but sure that doesnt matter, he showed fight!
mental gymnastics. you dont know better than the stats. you dont know better then the pros. you are just some guy who has poorly analysed a players performance and is being backed up by other like minded people. the weight of reality goes against you, deal with it however you wish


"And lol at holding up a "performance score" as proof of anything."
yeah the game didnt completely go around him. he did all that stuff you said earlier and kept possession and whatnot and wasnt completely terrible and you really believe that and a few other people do too so that makes it true. whatever, stats and facts crush your argument. the opinions of professionals crush your argument... but hey a few people on boards liked your post so you must be really good at this, right?!

astonaidan

BMMachine wrote: »

incorrect. it was the first thing I brought up in the match thread. I honestly thought "jesus, hes going to get roasted in the man utd thread" but then I see people defending him and being "oh he was our best outfield player" and that honestly confused the hell out of me.
And yes I did say what was wrong with him, you either cant remember or didnt read it properly... maybe you are seeing and saying what you want instead of what actually happened, again? and yeah, those stats & facts & professional opinions do debunk your assessment - you are going to have to deal with that. and yeah, i would imagine it would be tiresome hearing how you are wrong, repeatedly, but you are the guy who continues to put up this line of analysis so arent you just tiring yourself? you cant fight the tide. so yeah, just wrong, incorrect and seem to abhor directness




yeah, better just to make up things. sure if lots of like minded people back you up it means you are right, doesn't it? sure ignore those stats and stuff, they will go away
Duels won - 39% ah but sure that doesnt matter, he showed fight!
mental gymnastics. you dont know better than the stats. you dont know better then the pros. you are just some guy who has poorly analysed a players performance and is being backed up by other like minded people. the weight of reality goes against you, deal with it however you wish


"And lol at holding up a "performance score" as proof of anything."
yeah the game didnt completely go around him. he did all that stuff you said earlier and kept possession and whatnot and wasnt completely terrible and you really believe that and a few other people do too so that makes it true. whatever, stats and facts crush your argument. the opinions of professionals crush your argument... but hey a few people on boards liked your post so you must be really good at this, right?!

You should check out La Liga thread their is a guy ranting about stats in their aswell. Oh and watch Money Ball thats pretty sweet stats wise.
You realise stats can always be worked to prove you have won the argument, you also realise that click bait sites will publish the stories that will get the idiots to read, certain football sites are known for this, I hope you arent calling them professionals they are definitely not, its similar to quoting the sun/mail these are sites/papers that sensationalize everything, if its not you quoting these sites I apologize Im just to lazy to go back more than a couple of pages

Pro. F

BMMachine wrote: »

yeah, better just to make up things. sure if lots of like minded people back you up it means you are right, doesn't it? sure ignore those stats and stuff, they will go away
Duels won - 39% ah but sure that doesnt matter, he showed fight!
mental gymnastics. you dont know better than the stats. you dont know better then the pros. you are just some guy who has poorly analysed a players performance and is being backed up by other like minded people. the weight of reality goes against you, deal with it however you wish

You must not understand what Duels Won represents. It represents take-ons, successful/unsuccessful; aerial duels won/lost and tackles won/lost. The first one is straightforward, but tackles and aerial duels won/lost are a bit misleading and it catches a lot of people out, as has happened to you here. A tackle that wins the ball, but where the ball then falls to an opposition player, is counted as a tackle lost. So, for example, you could make a brilliant, shot-preventing tackle in your own box, simultaneously clearing the ball 40 yards diagonally - well out of the danger zone - but if an opposition player is the first to collect the loose ball that would count as a tackle lost. The same goes for aerial duels.

So the thing to do with tackles and aerial duels won/lost is to count them up and see how much of that type of action the player was involved in. Beyond that, for getting a qualitative insight, you actually have to look at each individual duel and judge it using your eyeballs.

BMMachine wrote: »

"And lol at holding up a "performance score" as proof of anything."
yeah the game didnt completely go around him. he did all that stuff you said earlier and kept possession and whatnot and wasnt completely terrible and you really believe that and a few other people do too so that makes it true. whatever, stats and facts crush your argument. the opinions of professionals crush your argument... but hey a few people on boards liked your post so you must be really good at this, right?!

One of your problems here is that you are paying too much attention to the wrong things.

Some people thanked a post - that is of no consequence. It doesn't excite me and it should bother you.

A professional journalist has an opinion - that is of no relevance. If you draw your opinions on football games and players with reference to what journos say you will end up with ridiculous opinions.

Repeating the word "facts" - calling something a fact does not make it a relevant fact or your use of it an sensible interpretation.

Somebody said something on Football365 - that is of no consequence to intelligent football discussion.

BMMachine

no mate, Im paying attention to the game. I was watching an awful player play awfully and very negatively. And yeah, I know what duels won means and what that shows is what we both know - Fellaini is sloppy as all hell and this game was no different.
what bothers me about the thanking is this "see look! hes right!" mentality despite all evidence to the contrary. It creates an accepted line out of thin air and everything becomes distorted around it. Look at what Adox said "watch the second half again" I did, I saw him do f-all well, I said as much. I checked the stats and oh look, there it is in a graph. The graph didnt just appear at random. its because he played awfully.

Doesnt matter though, nothing changes the fact (yeah i know..) that the game went completely by him and okay, the only things he did alright was a few basics. Aside from that, he provided what? A body? even at that not a very good one (39% duels, which you covered). No creativity, no direction, no idea really of what he was supposed to be doing and gave the ball away a lot. He couldnt read the movements of the Liverpool midfield and was constantly not where he needed to be or reacting too late. The thing he did was run, like a headless goose, and then at that often into the backs of players. Yet this was a "good" performance? crazy crazy crazy.
All im seeing opinion wise on you guys' analysis of his performance are these mental gymnastics. You are right - he wasn't the worst, Schneiderlen was also muck, Rashford - felt sorry for him but he contributed nothing, Carrick didnt do much either when he replaced him and so forth, so yeah - he wasn't the worst, but christ, if thats 'good' by fellaini then that word has lost all meaning.

and Im not drawing my opinions from those journalists and stats - im using them to back up what I saw during that game and what I said immediately after. They happen to agree with me. the weight of truth is on my side - that isn't changing no matter how much you try and take it apart

Pro. F

BMMachine wrote: »

And yeah, I know what duels won means and what that shows is what we both know - Fellaini is sloppy as all hell and this game was no different.
...
even at that not a very good one (39% duels, which you covered).

You are holding up this stat as evidence that he played poorly when it simply shows no such thing. When given a basic understanding of the Duels Won % stat the only sensible conclusion is that it proves nothing either way. You, on the other hand, conclude that it supports your argument.

BMMachine wrote: »

no mate, Im paying attention to the game. I was watching an awful player play awfully and very negatively.
...
what bothers me about the thanking is this "see look! hes right!" mentality despite all evidence to the contrary. It creates an accepted line out of thin air and everything becomes distorted around it. Look at what Adox said "watch the second half again" I did, I saw him do f-all well, I said as much. I checked the stats and oh look, there it is in a graph. The graph didnt just appear at random. its because he played awfully.

Doesnt matter though, nothing changes the fact (yeah i know..) that the game went completely by him and okay, the only things he did alright was a few basics. Aside from that, he provided what? A body? even at that not a very good one (39% duels, which you covered). No creativity, no direction, no idea really of what he was supposed to be doing and gave the ball away a lot. He couldnt read the movements of the Liverpool midfield and was constantly not where he needed to be or reacting too late. The thing he did was run, like a headless goose, and then at that often into the backs of players. Yet this was a "good" performance? crazy crazy crazy.
All im seeing opinion wise on you guys' analysis of his performance are these mental gymnastics. You are right - he wasn't the worst, Schneiderlen was also muck, Rashford - felt sorry for him but he contributed nothing, Carrick didnt do much either when he replaced him and so forth, so yeah - he wasn't the worst, but christ, if thats 'good' by fellaini then that word has lost all meaning.

and Im not drawing my opinions from those journalists and stats - im using them to back up what I saw during that game and what I said immediately after. They happen to agree with me. the weight of truth is on my side - that isn't changing no matter how much you try and take it apart

Look, I can't take you seriously when that is your opinion on Fellaini's performance. I think that performance - and the opinions on it - is a great filter. And if it works as a filter for me, then it will work for you too. We are so far apart in our interpretation of what we've seen tonight and the methods by which we form our opinions that there is just no point discussing it any more.

Thecon21

Jaysus lads, agree to disagree..

Where's Your Airbag these days actually?

I wish I could use a wildcard on the whole club at this stage.. So much wrong

BMMachine

Pro. F wrote: »

You are holding up this stat as evidence that he played poorly when it simply shows no such thing. When given a basic understanding of the Duels Won % stat the only sensible conclusion is that it proves nothing either way. You, on the other hand, conclude that it supports your argument.

sorry but it does. It showed that he was sloppy and couldn't retain and control possession and win the ball back. Which is exactly what happened when I watched the game with my eyes. The stat happens to back up what I saw, thats why Im using it.

Pro. F wrote:

Look, I can't take you seriously when that is your opinion on Fellaini's performance. I think that performance - and the opinions on it - is a great filter. And if it works as a filter for me, then it will work for you too. We are so far apart in our interpretation of what we've seen tonight and the methods by which we form our opinions that there is just no point discussing it any more.

yeah thats true. But the whole "oh I cant take you seriously" schtick - come on. Its not like Im alone on this and its not like that those stats and those other opinions mean nothing, like it or not

niallo27

Joking aside utd need to sort this ****. Liverpool stayed too long with souness and it all went tits up. Change now there is no room for sentiment

Korat

niallo27 wrote: »

Joking aside utd need to sort this ****. Liverpool stayed too long with souness and it all went tits up. Change now there is no room for sentiment

At least Liverpool hung on because there was a legacy and precedence of success.

The current Utd hierarchy haven't a clue how to run a football club. All football know-how left with Gill and Fergie. Utd are now run by advertising salesmen more interested in sales bonuses than the performance of the team.

I reckon that a few are feeling the same as myself; Reserving definitive judgement on the club's hierarchy until we see if the club had the a Jose up their sleeve come Summer time. I mean, to think that they haven't something lined-up is some frightening fúcking shít.

Korat

It seemed a bit far fetched to believe at first but did Ed Woodward just park the running of MUFC with LVG while he went off selling the brand? :eek:

Liam McPoyle

No sign of Oranage yet lads?

United defeats without his take on proceedings just aren't the same.

I think I'm suffering from Stockholm Syndrome or summit.

LVG in, LVG out, LVG shake it all about

adox

Heres a real fact:

I am ****ing knackered. Stupid Boards!

secman

astonaidan wrote: »

Its funny, everytime I watch a United game and they lose its always the same people and they will always blame Fellaini.

And the same people defend him.

I genuinely don't get what he offers when we play him. I have acknowledged that we have many problems, particular in midfield. I do tend to pick on him more so, as he just stands out for all the wrong reasons for me. My opinion obviously, but there you go.