Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2016 - Mod Warning link in OP 20/3

Mitch Connor

bucketybuck wrote: »

Because you can't have both, not as things currently stand.

I really don't understand why that has to the case?

Why could Rashford, at 18, not form part of an attacking group or players, that are rotated in and out of the starting 11 based on form, fitness and fixtures?

Look at the young players United developed under fergie while still winning titles and competing in europe. Why can we not have similar again?

Part of LVGs problem, imo, has been an unwillingness to play some of the talented young players in 'easier' games in order to rest some of the regular starting 11. Martial, for example, has been asked far too much of this season, imo. He isn't much older than Rashford, remember.

Pro. F

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

we've had virtually no players, 6 players who've made over 10 appearances in a decade. Mourinho gave Callejon, Granero, Nacho, Morata over 10 appearances in his time at Madrid.

Mourinho in 3 years at Real fecking Madrid almost has as good a record as us over the space of 10 years.

If they're good enough he'll play them, if they're not good enough why play them? Other than a Bilbao type mindset

Callejon was 22 and had spent three seasons playing senior football at Espanyol when Mourinho gave him his senior debut. Granero was 22 and already well established in the squad when Mourinho arrived at the club. Edit: Nacho and Morata are right though.

TheDoc

Lord TSC wrote: »

When did "develop kids" become a higher priority than "winning stuff"? Have seen so many people imply these priorities. Get the winning sorted first, then worry bout developing youths.

I think the concerns over Mourinho and youth is also confused as to be explicitly "Mourinho integrating youth players into first team squads". However it also, and probably more importantly, goes for his coaching of young players already established in the first team.

His track record, maybe unfairly, indicates he is more comfortable buying in more established players, then developing. He also has a pretty questionable record when it comes to nurturing attacking players, especially wingers.

A Mourinho arrival wouldn't worry me about the 17yr old looking to break, my worry is about how he will develop and nurture players like Martial and Memphis. Especially Memphis.

So much about a player reaching their potential is the environment they operate in. The team, their team mates, the manager, the tactics, their form, their ability. Memphis has everything to be someone looking at Balon Dor nominations in the years ahead of him. But he has hit a rough season in an underperforming team compounded by his own under performance and a manager unable to get him firing.

I wouldn't be overly confident Mourinho would do it either, and all of a sudden an incredible talent has not just stalled, but failed away a bit with their career.

I very much hope it is a different situation. And I agree with the sentiment, that the club should be prioritising getting back challenging and winning. But they are not mutually exclusive, and developing young talent and bringing them on, can be part of that winning formula, not a direct choice.

Pro. F

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Why could Rashford, at 18, not form part of an attacking group or players, that are rotated in and out of the starting 11 based on form, fitness and fixtures?

Because that isn't how a few other successful clubs do it, therefor it can't work. That's the logic.

TheDoc

Jayop wrote: »

Erm no. The argument is and has always been that he doesn't care about the clubs youth policy and bringing players through the ranks of the academy.

I don't think anyone ever said that Mourinho would be reluctant to go spend £50m on a 19 year old superstarlet.

I think it should also be maybe outlined, that it might not have always been Jose, but direction from the club.

His first spell at Chelsea coincided with massive squad investment, and a clear directive to have the team successful ASAP. At Inter he was tasked with putting the club at the top of the Milan hierarchy, and at Madrid given the objective of toppling a Barcalona dominance.

In each instance, the objective put to him, it's understandable why he would be opting to field experienced players, or buying in established stars. There was a clear and present onus on short term.

His path and style if he arrives at United, will be very much dictated by the board. And you know, hopefully we as fans get transparency on that.

If Mouriinho is tasked with steering the club into being competitive while works are done infrastructurally, then it would stand to reason we can temper our expectations accordingly. If there is a directive of integrating youth and other things, I'll be able to accept just being in the top 4, and decent cup runs here and there, while we get ourselves up of the ground.

However if he arrives, and is provided massive transfer funds, with everything left at his discretion with a directive of winning the league ASAP, then thats different, and I'll appreciate and understand his selections and decisions based on that requirement.

But sure thats wishful thinking, club will just push out the usual PR nonsense assume we are little dribblers.

bucketybuck

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Why could Rashford, at 18, not form part of an attacking group or players, that are rotated in and out of the starting 11 based on form, fitness and fixtures?

Because A, he isn't being rotated in for gametime in the appropriate places, he is playing every game including our biggest matches. And B, he currently isn't good enough for a team who wants to win titles and champions leagues.

Our current league position isn't completely due to poor tactics, its also because we rely too much on inexperienced and undeveloped players.

Lord TSC

Few stories...

United have confirmed a pre-season trip to China this summer. 8 days, 2 games. No word on who those games are against yet. Simon Stone (BBC) was reporting that Chinese people want to organise a City vs United game, which could well be the first meeting of Pep and Jose at the Manchester clubs.

Talks that Kroos is in talks with PSG over a move, but both us and City are chasing him. €50m is the figure we're supposedly willing to offer. (Source: Mohamed Bouhafsi)

And L'Equipe are saying Jose is just waiting for LVG to get the sack, and that he's been eyeing the United job for a long time, not just since he got the sack from Chelsea.

Mitch Connor

Lord TSC wrote: »

And L'Equipe are saying Jose is just waiting for LVG to get the sack, and that he's been eyeing the United job for a long time, not just since he got the sack from Chelsea.

Well you can strike that one from the list - i have been told quite a lot on this forum that my assertions that Jose wanted the United job before (and after) Moyes were completely wrong and Jose only ever wanted that Chelsea job.

Jayop

Just to reiterate because it seems to be that people are mistaken here. I don't think anyone is saying at this stage that Mourinhio shouldn't get the United job because of his lack of youty policy, just that it concerns us.

Your Airbag

bangkok wrote: »

ah come on, that is some bull****, Rashford ahead of welbeck and "he is not even a very good player"?

Welbeck has 221 senior first team games under his belt, has a 1 in 2 goal scoring ratio at International level, 33 caps 14 goals.

Marcus Rashford has 8 appearances to his name.

Its not bull, its an accurate reflection of Welbeck. I like how you picked out his England games to goal ratio, the best of his teams, and ignored the rest. Of course you ignore the rest because it shows how average Welbeck is.

Lets have a look though, for UTD Welbeck hit 29 goals in 142 apps over six seasons. Good players get close to 29 goals in one season.

For Arsenal Welbeck has 12 goals in 43 apps. Overall his career total is 63 goals in 254 apps. Average to arguably poor results.

Your overestimation of Welbeck is akin to your overly harsh criticism of Fellaini.

Yes I would start Rashford over Welbeck right now, I have seen more ability from Rashers in his short time to make me think he is a better prospect. This is no guaruntee Rashers will go on to be a great or better than Welbeck but right now I would pick him. Rashfords close control is superior. I have seen Welbeck at times fumble the ball out off of his own legs when under no pressure. Rashfords positional instincts are also better imo.

Mitch Connor

bucketybuck wrote: »

Because A, he isn't being rotated in for gametime in the appropriate places, he is playing every game including our biggest matches. And B, he currently isn't good enough for a team who wants to win titles and champions leagues.

But it doesn't have to remain that way - the argument you are using is insane. A decent summer window and smart decisions could improve the team while not destroying any chance Rashford has to develop.

Korat

bangkok wrote: »

Welbeck has 221 senior first team games under his belt, has a 1 in 2 goal scoring ratio at International level, 33 caps 14 goals.

Andy Cole scored 1 goal in 15 games for England.

David Healy scored 36 goals in 95 games for Northern Ireland.

International goals are proof of nothing other than some players are more suited to international football than club football.

If Utd were going to be playing San Marino and Slovenia every week then I think Welbeck would be a great signing based on his scoring record against those kinds of teams.

bucketybuck

Mitch Connor wrote: »

But it doesn't have to remain that way - the argument you are using is insane. A decent summer window and smart decisions could improve the team while not destroying any chance Rashford has to develop.

Its not insane, we don't even disagree.

If Rashford was part of a proper squad there wouldn't be a problem, if a prime Rooney and Van Persie were there he could be rotated in and out of the side perfectly. But we don't have a prime Rooney and Van Persie, we have this kid playing every game during a really bad period. Thats not good neither for him nor for the club.

TheDoc

adox wrote: »

How can anyone be worried about a manager wanting "instant success"?


This place can be as weird as fûck sometimes.

I imagine that there is some concern, and to be honest rightly so, about life post Mourinho. For all the talk he or the club might give, there is simply no escaping the assumption will be three years max.

Mourinho building a club long term has not being experienced yet. but what has been experienced, is Mourinho coming into clubs under a short term directive, provided the transfer funds with which to operate, and then obtaining that success.

But there are genuine and valid concerns post Mourinho life, with many squads having to go through major rebuilding and clubs having to go through major adjustments.

Personally while I appreciate the longterm potential effects, I'd be very much comfortable now if Mourinho came on board, and deal with the aftermath later.

For some time now I've felt there is no best managers, just the right managers at the right time. Mourinho "feels" like he is the right man based on our current situation. And then three years into his reign, that scenario might change, and someone else might be a better fit.

I fully appreciated Ferguson, like Wenger now, was the edge case, and there is simply no basis to expect managers to operate at the highest level, obtaining success and to do this longterm. I think in general what we can see at elite levels of football, is that coaches are operating on a 3-4 year cycle at best.

I'm not sure we will ever really dominate again in the next 10 years, but there is no reason to remain competitive, and to take a title every 2-3 years as the managerial cycles occur and clubs spend a season adapting.

Leroy42

Oh goody, the Welbeck arguement again!

Giggsy11

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Well you can strike that one from the list - i have been told quite a lot on this forum that my assertions that Jose wanted the United job before (and after) Moyes were completely wrong and Jose only ever wanted that Chelsea job.

IIRC it was Chelsea fans who rubbished that story.

Your Airbag

Jayop wrote: »

Just to reiterate because it seems to be that people are mistaken here. I don't think anyone is saying at this stage that Mourinhio shouldn't get the United job because of his lack of youty policy, just that it concerns us.

Its a massive concern though. Rashford, CBJ, Varella and Fossu Mensah or whatever his name is have had a taste of the first team, fame and adjulation from the media and fans. Its very hard to go back to regular reserve football after that especially with other clubs offering more and they deserve that attention based on talent shown thus far.

It cost us Pogba, it would be a massive shame to see these players push a move away from OT and to see all that development and talent go elsewhere under Jose.

Rossi IRL

Lets remind ourselves of Wilson and Macheda, who wont/didnt make it at United after scoring some goals, before we get carried away with Rashford.



But in saying that Rashford does have the technical ability to make it at United which is what I think has held Wilson back.

Rashford excites me more than those guys did when they came through as Rashford looks like he has the pace, skills and finishing to play up top by himself.

Welbeck was too inconsistent for us and showd poor finishing ability but he was often thrown out on the wing.

Mitch Connor

Rossi IRL wrote: »

Lets remind ourselves of Wilson and Macheda, who wont/didnt make it at United after scoring some goals, before we get carried away with Rashford.



But in saying that Rashford does have the technical ability to make it at United which is what I think has held Wilson back.

Rashford excites me more than those guys did when they came through as Rashford looks like he has the pace, skills and finishing to play up top by himself.

Welbeck was too inconsistent for us and showd poor finishing ability but he was often thrown out on the wing.

From watching them in the youths, I would say Wilsons ability to run with the ball, go past players, close control and finishing are all superior to Rashford, who has much better pace.

Rashford wasn't, imo, particularly impressive at U18 level or U21. Wilson, Macheda, Welbeck all more impressive at those levels. Arguably Josh King too.

Your Airbag

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Rashford wasn't, imo, particularly impressive at U18 level or U21. Wilson, Macheda, Welbeck all more impressive at those levels. Arguably Josh King too.

Thats the great and mysterious thing about football. Some players who may have been less developed in a youth set up can thrive under the top level standard and handle the pressure better than other better prospects who can wilt in the spotlight.

The mental toughness side of the game is as important as the physical side.

bangkok

Your Airbag wrote: »

Its not bull, its an accurate reflection of Welbeck. I like how you picked out his England games to goal ratio, the best of his teams, and ignored the rest. Of course you ignore the rest because it shows how average Welbeck is.

Lets have a look though, for UTD Welbeck hit 29 goals in 142 apps over six seasons. Good players get close to 29 goals in one season.

For Arsenal Welbeck has 12 goals in 43 apps. Overall his career total is 63 goals in 254 apps. Average to arguably poor results.

Your overestimation of Welbeck is akin to your overly harsh criticism of Fellaini.

Yes I would start Rashford over Welbeck right now, I have seen more ability from Rashers in his short time to make me think he is a better prospect. This is no guaruntee Rashers will go on to be a great or better than Welbeck but right now I would pick him. Rashfords close control is superior. I have seen Welbeck at times fumble the ball out off of his own legs when under no pressure. Rashfords positional instincts are also better imo.

Again, you have only seen Rashford play a total of 8 games while you have seen welbeck for 6 or 7 years so its easy to pick out mistakes made by welbeck over that term.

Majority of welbecks club career has been played wide left.

Alex Ferguson the greatest club manager of all time rated welbeck highly.

The 2nd greatest manager in premier league history signed welbeck for 16m and rates him extremely highly.

Pep Guardiola, arguably the best manager in the game right now, name checked Welbeck as one of the biggest threats to his Bayern Munich team when we played them at old Trafford a few years ago.

Welbeck will also go to the European championships with England this summer, if Rashford was better than him he would be going.

those 4 managers all cant be wrong....

TheDoc

How do you still bang on bout Wellbeck. 16m for him was excellent business. While we can all have our opinions on him(mine being that him being sold was good business) we simply cannot ignore some basic observations that he was incredibly wasteful in front of goal, and when a calm, collected finish was required for an important goal or in an important game, he tended to fluff it.

If Wellbeck goes on to score 20+ league goals for the majority of his career at an elite level loads of us can apologise to you for being wrong. But at the time of sale, it was a real no brainer imo.

As much as many pundits and journalists kept banging on that Giroud is not a striker you can win the premier league with, it's laughable that some of those same people seem to think Wellbeck is.

I really wish him all the success in his career, genuinely do, but he is not a player that I find myself caring was sold, and I'm pretty sure it'll never be the case either.

bangkok

TheDoc wrote: »

How do you still bang on bout Wellbeck. 16m for him was excellent business. While we can all have our opinions on him(mine being that him being sold was good business) we simply cannot ignore some basic observations that he was incredibly wasteful in front of goal, and when a calm, collected finish was required for an important goal or in an important game, he tended to fluff it.

If Wellbeck goes on to score 20+ league goals for the majority of his career at an elite level loads of us can apologise to you for being wrong. But at the time of sale, it was a real no brainer imo.

As much as many pundits and journalists kept banging on that Giroud is not a striker you can win the premier league with, it's laughable that some of those same people seem to think Wellbeck is.

I really wish him all the success in his career, genuinely do, but he is not a player that I find myself caring was sold, and I'm pretty sure it'll never be the case either.

this has been proven wrong on so many occasions.

Also he doesn't need to score 20+ goals every season to be a great player, if Arsenal sign for example Benzema this summer, Welbeck can play anywhere across the front 3 and still be effective.

Your Airbag

bangkok wrote: »

Again, you have only seen Rashford play a total of 8 games while you have seen welbeck for 6 or 7 years so its easy to pick out mistakes made by welbeck over that term.

Majority of welbecks club career has been played wide left.

Alex Ferguson the greatest club manager of all time rated welbeck highly.

The 2nd greatest manager in premier league history signed welbeck for 16m and rates him extremely highly.

Pep Guardiola, arguably the best manager in the game right now, name checked Welbeck as one of the biggest threats to his Bayern Munich team when we played them at old Trafford a few years ago.

Welbeck will also go to the European championships with England this summer, if Rashford was better than him he would be going.

those 4 managers all cant be wrong....

Dealing with your logic is tough at times, because it contians little common sense tbh.

Almost all of those reasons you gave are laughable and don't stand up to the most basic scrutiny yet you have them as absolute proof in your mind Welbeck is good.

Fergie also said Phil Jones could go onto be one of UTDs greatest players of all time, lol. Fergie said some bizzare ****e at times and he always stuck up for his players, this is not an indication of quality. Most managers dont like to openly bash players.

Wenger (2nd greatest manager in premier league history???) also signed Chamak, Francis Jeffers and a host of other dross. Proof of nothing.

Pep once called Valencia the best winger in the world at one point.

None of what you said means anything. Form means everything and Welbecks career total of 63 goals in 254 apps tells us everything we need to know.

jayo26

Korat wrote: »

As in John Terry, who was a Utd fan as a kid?

.. and Giggs was 6 when he moved to Manchester. Beckham's Dad was a Utd fan so you can be sure joining Man Utd was a big deal for him. But being local or not it was their ability which counted most.

If Memphis had grown up supporting Utd from afar would that make him a better Utd player?

Liverpool seemed to sign a couple of players in recent years on the basis that they supported the club growing up, Robbie Keane and that scouse guy who played a couple of games England. I don't know whether that was really a factor in signing them but it didn't make them play any better.

Terry clearly has a lot of love for the club because he came threw the Academy same as the likes of Steven Gerrard and Carragher for Liverpool whom I believe were young united and Everton fans.

No need to go nit picking at every little thing I say I still think it's nice To have players that come threw the Academy and show a love for the club in the way rashford has. And it's good for other clubs too I've no problem with it.

Rossi IRL

Mitch Connor wrote: »

From watching them in the youths, I would say Wilsons ability to run with the ball, go past players, close control and finishing are all superior to Rashford, who has much better pace.

Rashford wasn't, imo, particularly impressive at U18 level or U21. Wilson, Macheda, Welbeck all more impressive at those levels. Arguably Josh King too.

I had such high hopes for him from watching him in the youth team

TheDoc

And just to get REALLY anal about it

Majority of welbecks club career has been played wide left.

Because for all the talk, he has concistently, outside of bursts here and there, proven himself not to be a better striker then the currently fit no.1 striker.

Alex Ferguson the greatest club manager of all time rated welbeck highly.

And yet was responsible for deploying him out left for the majority of the time, even prioritising Rooney, EVEN during a time he was trying to get Rooney out of the club.

The 2nd greatest manager in premier league history signed welbeck for 16m and rates him extremely highly.

A manager who for some time has lost his way with identifying talent suitable for Arsenal, and for years has been questionable in terms of his suitability to his position. His recent record with Walcott, Wilshere, Gibbs, Jenkins and Ox-Chamberlain paint a picture of how Welbeck might fare. All talk about potential, all the misplaced faith in the world, but simply amounts to nothing more then a wish and a disappointment.

Pep Guardiola, arguably the best manager in the game right now, name checked Welbeck as one of the biggest threats to his Bayern Munich team when we played them at old Trafford a few years ago.

Pretty sure he was singled out as a threat because of his pace. Wellbeck is quick, fair enough. But as we also remember from that game, he made an absolute ****ing meal of a 1v1 against Neuer. In a game like that where you know you won't get chances, it can reveal a lot about a striker. Sure they miss chances, but those that will be mainstays in elite teams, score goals that matter, and take their chances

Welbeck will also go to the European championships with England this summer, if Rashford was better than him he would be going.

And that is totally fine. Hodgson has some loyalty to player, Wellbeck has done well for him, and that is all fine. Wellbeck has scored a fair return of goals, but also against some dire teams. While that is not his fault, things should be taken on balance. While Wellbeck will go, he will be third choice, if not fourth choice, behind Kane,Sturidge and Rooney and possibly pidgeon holed onto the left.

those 4 managers all cant be wrong....

Yes they can.


I just can't help feeling you go to the extremes with players, instead of taking maybe a more tempered view. Which is fine to an extent, but then it just creates these endless cycles of posts that we don't get anywhere with, cause we are starting from an exaggerated point of view

Mitch Connor

whatever about his stats - i still reckon Welbeck could have been a great squad player for us, as he will prove to be for arsenal. He watned to be a key player though, first choice - he thought he might get that at arsenal.

If welbeck either considerably improves or accepts a rotational role, he will have a great career at Arsenal (as he could have at United imo) or he will become a leading player for a midtable side - Southampton, Everton, maybe Newcastle if they avoid relegation....

Vic Vinegar

Your Airbag wrote: »

career total of 63 goals in 254 apps tells us everything we need to know.

Wow, that's awful!

bangkok

Your Airbag wrote: »

Dealing with your logic is tough at times, because it contians little common sense tbh.

Almost all of those reasons you gave are laughable and don't stand up to the most basic scrutiny yet you have them as absolute proof in your mind Welbeck is good.

Fergie also said Phil Jones could go onto be one of UTDs greatest players of all time, lol. Fergie said some bizzare ****e at times and he always stuck up for his players, this is not an indication of quality. Most managers dont like to openly bash players.

Wenger (2nd greatest manager in premier league history???) also signed Chamak, Francis Jeffers and a host of other dross. Proof of nothing.

Pep once called Valencia the best winger in the world at one point.

None of what you said means anything. Form means everything and Welbecks career total of 63 goals in 254 apps tells us everything we need to know.

1. Phil Jones when signed was one of the best young centre backs in Europe for his age

2. Chamak was a free transfer and Jeffers was quickly released by arsenal

3. Valencia was class when he joined United, was on the brink of joining Real Madrid before Dave Whelan convinced him United was the better club to go to

TheDoc

bangkok wrote: »

this has been proven wrong on so many occasions.

Also he doesn't need to score 20+ goals every season to be a great player, if Arsenal sign for example Benzema this summer, Welbeck can play anywhere across the front 3 and still be effective.

Where? Where has this proof come from?

I expect my striker, for Manchester United, to provide a good return of goals to the team, and to be also be instrumental and the turning point in big games, or tight games.

Of course all strikers will miss chances, but we all know, from WATCHING FOOTBALL, that the best, or those fit for elite teams, turn games, score important goals and prove the difference.

That was a big goal he scored for Arsenal against Leicester. And that is the sort of goal I'm talking about.

I'm not writing Wellbeck off, but at the point of his sale, 16m was good business. From a United perspective.

I don't think we can objectively compare Wellbeck to Rashford, that can only happen objectively in a season or so. but already, Rashford has shown some signs of scoring big goals, or important goals. That he will have that nack, that confidence, coupled with his ongoing developement, fares well for him.

Just as it might do for Wellbeck going through his career.

jayo26

Every fuken topic has to turn into a danny bloody wellbeck debate its ridiculous can we not have a Danny wellbeck appreciation thread and leave the rest of us move on with out life.

Mitch Connor

jayo26 wrote: »

Every fuken topic has to turn into a danny bloody wellbeck debate its ridiculous can we not have a Danny wellbeck appreciation thread and leave the rest of us move on with out life.

no.

You will engage in this debate and you will like it.

If your next post isn't a carefully constructed defence or evisceration of welbeck.... you don't even want to know!

Rayne Wooney

Pro. F wrote: »

Callejon was 22 and had spent three seasons playing senior football at Espanyol when Mourinho gave him his senior debut. Granero was 22 and already well established in the squad when Mourinho arrived at the club. Edit: Nacho and Morata are right though.

I didn't realise they were that old but still, they were produce of the youth setup and Mourinho could have easily replaced them but gave them some game time. Likewise Baloteli at Inter. And there were other young players at Madrid he gave an odd game or two, I think he might have given Jesé his debut. His record isn't nearly as bad as people make out and our record since 2006 isn't much better than Mourinho's at Inter and Madrid despite our club being well known for giving youth a chance.

Mourinho's policy is fine, players will get chances just like they do now. And even if it wasn't I really doubt the club would hire a manager without assurances from him that he would develop young players.

TheDoc

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

I didn't realise they were that old but still, they were produce of the youth setup and Mourinho could have easily replaced them but gave them some game time. Likewise Baloteli at Inter. And there were other young players at Madrid he gave an odd game or two, I think he might have given Jesé his debut. His record isn't nearly as bad as people make out and our record since 2006 isn't much better than Mourinho's at Inter and Madrid despite our club being well known for giving youth a chance.

Mourinho's policy is fine, players will get chances just like they do now. And even if it wasn't I really doubt the club would hire a manager without assurances from him that he would develop young players.

I'm more concerned about the already established first team young players, who will be shaped massively by a coach between 21-24.

While I hate all the ****e about "The united way" and that crap, we do seem to love it best when our team play with wide, creative wingers.

While there might very well be some success stories I've forgotten, feels like every half decent winger that comes under Mourinho, ends up leaving his team, and flourishing elsewhere.

I think the only real fear I have is what might happen with Memphis and Martial under his management. If they harness their potential that is so abundantly evident, it could be 2/3'rds of an incredible front line. The next 2 seasons are going to be important in their development, especially for Memphis having to come back from a pretty poor starting point.

Like even just in recent Mourinho memory, Cuadrado, Salah, Schurrle, Pedro and Hazard. All good to excellent wide players, all gone to **** under him. Might be just a myth that has formed legs about Mourinho and creative wide players, but it still doesn't ease my fears.

Also TSC's Kroos links......don't tease me

Pro. F

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

I didn't realise they were that old but still, they were produce of the youth setup and Mourinho could have easily replaced them but gave them some game time. Likewise Baloteli at Inter. And there were other young players at Madrid he gave an odd game or two, I think he might have given Jesé his debut. His record isn't nearly as bad as people make out and our record since 2006 isn't much better than Mourinho's at Inter and Madrid despite our club being well known for giving youth a chance.

Mourinho's policy is fine, players will get chances just like they do now. And even if it wasn't I really doubt the club would hire a manager without assurances from him that he would develop young players.

Playing 22 year olds who have already well established themselves in top level senior football is not what the doubters are talking about, so Callejon and Granero don't prove your point. Your other examples are fine though.

TheDoc

Pro. F wrote: »

Playing 22 year olds who have already well established themselves in top level senior football is not what the doubters are talking about, so Callejon and Granero don't prove your point. Your other examples are fine though.

Think I saw a tweet from one of the SSN presenters saying that Rashford was part of the United squad that got romped by Chelsea under 21's in a final or something a while back, and while he has his appearances, not one of that Chelsea team has made an appearance for the first team.

I'd have to dig it out, but while everyone drew their conclusions from it, I think it's important to separate Mourinho from Chelsea in that context. There is clearly no desire to integrate youth at that club, from the hierarchy, and the youth system there is a money generator and FFP loophole exercise.

For large parts of this season, with nothing to play for, they still have consisted with underperforming senior players, and provided little to no opportunity to their youth players. You'd think its the PERFECT situation for them to blood a few in.

I think for those (and I guess I'm one of them to an extent)with concerns over Mourinho and his youth integration, we can throw an eye on Chelsea for the remainder of the season and look at the teams they play. I've a sneaky feeling even with absolutely nothing to play for, there will still be a reluctance to play youth. And that comes from up above.

bucketybuck

TheDoc wrote: »

Like even just in recent Mourinho memory, Cuadrado, Salah, Schurrle, Pedro and Hazard.

Hazard was player of the season last year under Mourinho?

I do think this is another myth about Mourinho, that he is only a defensive coach and bad for wingers and flair players. He is a pragmatist sure, but his teams score plenty of goals and there are plenty of attackers that thrived under his guidance. Hazard was brilliant under Mourinho, Ronaldo scored buckets of goals under Mourinho, Sneijder had a great season with him at Inter, and back in the day Robben and Duff worked brilliantly in the Mourinho system.

Whats more likely, Mourinho wasting talented young players like Martial and Depay, or Mourinho looking at the United squad and setting it up to get the best out of them?

Liam McPoyle

bucketybuck wrote: »

Hazard was player of the season last year under Mourinho?

I do think this is another myth about Mourinho, that he is only a defensive coach and bad for wingers and flair players. He is a pragmatist sure, but his teams score plenty of goals and there are plenty of attackers that thrived under his guidance. Hazard was brilliant under Mourinho, Ronaldo scored buckets of goals under Mourinho, Sneijder had a great season with him at Inter, and back in the day Robben and Duff worked brilliantly in the Mourinho system.

Whats more likely, Mourinho wasting talented young players like Martial and Depay, or Mourinho looking at the United squad and setting it up to get the best out of them?

Just on that, dont Jose's Madrid hold the record for most La Liga goals in a season too?

Obviously they are top heavy up front so should be scoring a lot but thats still damn impressive given Barca and their attack.

TheDoc

bucketybuck wrote: »

Hazard was player of the season last year under Mourinho?

I do think this is another myth about Mourinho, that he is only a defensive coach and bad for wingers and flair players. He is a pragmatist sure, but his teams score plenty of goals and there are plenty of attackers that thrived under his guidance. Hazard was brilliant under Mourinho, Ronaldo scored buckets of goals under Mourinho, Sneijder had a great season with him at Inter, and back in the day Robben and Duff worked brilliantly in the Mourinho system.

Whats more likely, Mourinho wasting talented young players like Martial and Depay, or Mourinho looking at the United squad and setting it up to get the best out of them?

Yeah I know what you mean, I'm not sure if its myth of fact myself.

I guess its where I get an odd's when it comes to some mangers and how they deal with wide attacking players. Memphis has proven thus far at United, he is a liability when it comes to tracking back. Martial has also shown some slackness when it comes to putting a defensive shift in at times. Mourinho we just know, will be demanding defensive work from his attacking players. Some players can maybe adapt to that, others can't or won't.

Granted it's a concern I have, its a concern. Not something that would make me NOT want Mourinho at the club. I look at our squad and I see a lot of good parts, that someone like Mourinho can surely knit together and make into a really competitive team. Sure some signings maybe required, but there are portions of our squad that have simply being underperforming or mismanaged, and we should be pleasantly surprised seeing what they are capable of when fit and firing.

All assuming Mourinho a) Arrives and b) can actually make this squad perform to an acceptable level(of which there is no immediate guarantees)

TheDoc

Saul T Nutzz wrote: »

Just on that, dont Jose's Madrid hold the record for most La Liga goals in a season too?

Obviously they are top heavy up front so should be scoring a lot but thats still damn impressive given Barca and their attack.

Yeah I don't subscribe to what I do believe as myth, that he sets up massively negative teams. I know I definitely got pissed off with the Stamford bridge loss last season, and emotionally of the cuff said some things about his negative ways and stuff.

But in reality, he is just a good tactician who will accept when maybe a certain match or team require a different setup. And that is totally fine. But as was evident in his first spell at Chelsea, he created such a monstrous team, that they asserted themselves on every game. Their midfield was proper frightening.

He has shown good adaptability and decision making in general, when the situation arises. As much as it aggravated me at the time, the way he setup his Chelsea team last season to grind out to the title, as they went through a massive slump was really impressive.

We have seen the likes of City,Arsenal and even ourselves in some seasons, with managers who didn't adapt and just persisted hoping for it to click again, to then just lose the title.

beno619

bangkok wrote: »

ah come on, that is some bull****, Rashford ahead of welbeck and "he is not even a very good player"?

Welbeck has 221 senior first team games under his belt, has a 1 in 2 goal scoring ratio at International level, 33 caps 14 goals.

Marcus Rashford has 8 appearances to his name.

Dont waste your breath.

Billy86

Vic Vinegar wrote: »

Wow, that's awful!

For a winger, it's really not.

bangkok wrote: »

1. Phil Jones when signed was one of the best young centre backs in Europe for his age

He wasn't, the hype was simply louder than for most young CBs in Europe around his age. It's not like he forgot to defend after we bought him.

TheDoc wrote: »

I'm not writing Wellbeck off, but at the point of his sale, 16m was good business. From a United perspective.

No, no it really wasn't. 16mn for a 23 year old full England international, straight to a rival, is never good business.

As for Mourinho, I also have concerns about him giving youth a look in, as well as with his squad building. Give him the right pieces (or most of them) and he can do a phenomenal job, but his ability to build up from scratch isn't one I have the world of confidence in. So I'm not sure that the timing is right in getting him in that sense, but I'd still reckon he's probably our best realistic option.

beno619

TheDoc wrote: »

How do you still bang on bout Wellbeck.

Because someone made a ridiculous post about his quality.

Cantona's Collars

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

I absolutely hate this stat. Speed is a function of time and distance, and they provide neither. Did he cover a meter at this speed? 10? 100? Because the latter is impressive and the former is not at all.

Took a bit of looking but it is over a 5 second burst.That is the difference between getting away from a defender or being tackled.

Cantona's Collars

Tour to China is confirmed,

United will spend eight days in the country and play two matches with details for the rest of their summer plans to be announced in due course. There has been speculation United could play neighbours City, who are also visiting China to play in the International Champions Cup tournament, but opponents and dates for the games have not yet been confirmed. United's executive vice-chairman Ed Woodward said: "Manchester United have strong historical links with China and we are very proud of our relationship and of our fans throughout the country. "A total of almost 500,000 supporters have attended previous games during our visits to China and we have always enjoyed exceptional support in the country, so naturally it is something that everybody is very much looking forward to this summer."

Read more at: https://www.clubcall.com/manchester-united/united-announce-china-trip-1804413.html

beno619

I like how people are now using Fergie's statement about Jones as a stick to beat him with.

Not so long ago people used to write off Smalling the same way all it took was an injury free season for Smalling to prove Fergie correct.

Your Airbag

In the modern day world of transfers where most players are drastically overpriced its rare to see a player transfer for exactly what he's worth.

Direct rivals aside, Welbeck for 16m was spot on. That's exactly what he is worth. In contrast we got RVP from Arsenal for 22.5m. RVP almost single handedly fired us to a league title. Welbeck has and never will be capable of doing that for any team ever.

Cantona's Collars

https://twitter.com/OleOleUnited/status/712239976268894208

bangkok

Your Airbag wrote: »

In the modern day world of transfers where most players are drastically overpriced its rare to see a player transfer for exactly what he's worth.

Direct rivals aside, Welbeck for 16m was spot on. That's exactly what he is worth. In contrast we got RVP from Arsenal for 22.5m. RVP almost single handedly fired us to a league title. Welbeck has and never will be capable of doing that for any team ever.

rvp was in the final year of his contract and was close to 30.

Andy Carroll went to Liverpool for 35m and west ham for 18m. We sold to a direct rival a better player for 16m which has improved their team and weakened ours. terrible deal