Fasted cycling.

outfox

ford2600 wrote: »

No but outfox (who's question I was answering)isn't a begineer insofar as I know.

I'm riding seriously about 2 and half years. I want to increase the distance I can ride without food. I'm up to about 70-100 km, depending on the breakfast. Thanks for your comments.

Dahat, I apologise for butting in on your thread. However, it's a great thread.

nilhg

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

does that not defeat the purpose as you are in cardio heart zone rather than fat burning and hence likely to start burning muscle as fuel rather than just fat?

surely for this to work you need to be at a low intensity level

edit: addressed in later posts

TBH I'm more confused now than when the thread started, my understanding is/was (and I can't find my source for this right now) that when you eat breakfast the body goes into digestive/energy storage mode, which it won't fully come out of even if you exercise, but by doing the exercise first your metabolism goes up and stays higher than it would otherwise be even after you come home and eat.

My pre breakfast rides would be something like this,

https://www.strava.com/activities/176193704/overview

the route is one I use a lot and would expect to be able to do very comfortably. My average HR for that ride above is what I'd expect to be able to ride all day at (with a few food stops) though there you'll see I went out easier and stepped up the effort coming home.

Pawlie

Plastik wrote: »

FWIW, 220-age as a method for calculating your max HR is vastly outdated. It just about gives you a very general rule of thumb way of looking at it, similar to how the BMI scale works for 'healthy weight'. If you want to train accurately using HR as the metric then you need to do something like the Joe Friel protocol LTHR test and work out your actual HR zones accordingly.

100% spot on, i was meant to say "this method is not set in stone".
But for cycling I would work with Coggan zones

Pawlie

outfox wrote: »

I'm riding seriously about 2 and half years. I want to increase the distance I can ride without food. I'm up to about 70-100 km, depending on the breakfast. Thanks for your comments.

Dahat, I apologise for butting in on your thread. However, it's a great thread.

there will be alot of variables in how long further you can ride without food and added to that how hard you can ride without food, its best talking face to face with someone or even on the phone, a person that is going to advice you would need to know as much information as possible about you on and off the bike

fat bloke

I read the length of this thread, becoming all the more certain that I was definitely gonna start setting the alarm for an hour earlier in the morning to start some fasted dawn turbo training. I noticed that as I nodded my head sagely in agreement I was plunging my hand into a box of dry granola and munching on absent-minded fistfuls of Aldi's finest honey roasted oats...

I think I have more immediate solutions to implement first

outfox

Just a thought: Does the pre-breakfast workout have to be on a bike? Would one get the same benefit by merely delaying breakfast, and say just working at your desk?

ford2600

outfox wrote: »

Just a thought: Does the pre-breakfast workout have to be on a bike? Would one get the same benefit by merely delaying breakfast, and say just working at your desk?

My last post!

Yep I find it one of the better things to do especially at start. The adaptation is probably as much in head as a metabolic one; we are conditioned that breakfast is essential, most important meal of the day etc etc.

Danny Lennon has a good post about it somewhere on sigma nutrition about who should and shouldn't eat breakfast and for the rest for who it probably doesn't matter.

For a start maybe just have black coffee/tea or water and drink water when you get a call for food. You'll probably find "hunger" goes after a while. When you do break-your-fast eat something decent (have it planned beforehand maybe) rather than going mental with three scones and half a pot of jam!

Once of twice a week to start see what works. If it suits you you'll probably be able to get to evening time feeling good pretty quick. If you start to feel sh1te, eat it's not a hardship contest! A 24 hr fast is trivial for me now and I just do it on days I'm on road a lot and at meetings etc.

If you do have a breakfast have something low carb (as long as your not training that morning) and have more carbs around your activity; my focus is on after training primarily but will eat a little carbs before gym in order that I'm not inhibiting my lifting; fat ain't worth a sh1te if your at your limit squatting!

I'd also be inclined to have a breakfast the morning after a tough bike ride/gym session and wouldn't be too picky about macros; i.e. eat according to how your training rather than blindly following some food "Bible".

Other than bike I do my 1/2 days of farm work a week fasted(just more convenient/efficent), any airport travel and morning gym sessions(stored overnight glycogen allows me to do a pretty tough hour of strength training with 15 conditioning included, just about though or maybe I'm just weak:pac:)

As for on bike, within 5km I could get rumble in stomach but it goes with a drop of water.

The sigma nutrition podcast I linked earlier are worth a listen; just skipthe introductory back slapping and skip through the stuff which is off topic for you.

What are your goals btw? Does eating on long spins not suit you?

gambeta_fc

Thanks OP and all contributors, one of the most interesting threads I've seen on here in a while.

I've had some hip trouble and currently doing 2 morning gym sessions a week for strengthening. I'm following a program from a physio, involves a couple of exercises using a functional trainer that take around the hour to go through.

I've been doing these early morning before work for a couple of weeks now. Most of these have been done with no breakfast beforehand, sometimes I'd have a banana before starting. I'd never heard of fasted training or triggering fat burning beforehand, just lazy in the mornings and grabbing the extra time in bed!

After reading through this thread I wore a heart rate monitor this morning. I was mostly in Z2 or lower, occasionally going into low Z3. As the purpose of this is strengthening for my hip I'd like to know I'm not burning muscle as described in an earlier post.

I'd also do one hour sessions on a spin bike two mornings a week, usually without breakfast or a bit of fruit at most. One of these would be low intensity just listening to podcasts but the other would be doing intervals, looking at yesterday morning I spent 35% in Z4.

From what I've read here so far it sounds like this might not be the best idea? I don't keep a close eye on weight, I'm fairly slim (somewhere around 78kg at 6'1"), ideally looking to get stronger and fitter without losing any more weight. I'd do longer cycles at the weekend but I'd eat a decent breakfast beforehand, some combination of orange juice / coffee / fruit / yoghurt / porridge / eggs / brown toast.

- Would the general recommendation be to always eat something before doing any morning training when pushing beyond Z3?
- Are there any indicators to know if you're burning fat or muscle stores on low intensity training?
- For morning weights or strengthening sessions should I be eating a particular food type beforehand or is fasted fine?

ford2600

gambeta_fc wrote: »

Thanks OP and all contributors, one of the most interesting threads I've seen on here in a while.

I've had some hip trouble and currently doing 2 morning gym sessions a week for strengthening. I'm following a program from a physio, involves a couple of exercises using a functional trainer that take around the hour to go through.

I've been doing these early morning before work for a couple of weeks now. Most of these have been done with no breakfast beforehand, sometimes I'd have a banana before starting. I'd never heard of fasted training or triggering fat burning beforehand, just lazy in the mornings and grabbing the extra time in bed!

After reading through this thread I wore a heart rate monitor this morning. I was mostly in Z2 or lower, occasionally going into low Z3. As the purpose of this is strengthening for my hip I'd like to know I'm not burning muscle as described in an earlier post.

I'd also do one hour sessions on a spin bike two mornings a week, usually without breakfast or a bit of fruit at most. One of these would be low intensity just listening to podcasts but the other would be doing intervals, looking at yesterday morning I spent 35% in Z4.

From what I've read here so far it sounds like this might not be the best idea? I don't keep a close eye on weight, I'm fairly slim (somewhere around 78kg at 6'1"), ideally looking to get stronger and fitter without losing any more weight. I'd do longer cycles at the weekend but I'd eat a decent breakfast beforehand, some combination of orange juice / coffee / fruit / yoghurt / porridge / eggs / brown toast.

- Would the general recommendation be to always eat something before doing any morning training when pushing beyond Z3?
- Are there any indicators to know if you're burning fat or muscle stores on low intensity training?
- For morning weights or strengthening sessions should I be eating a particular food type beforehand or is fasted fine?

From 25mins on (although it's all really good) has some good stuff on cortisol and fasted training.

http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com/2014/02/combining-fasting-and-exercise/

http://www.precisionnutrition.com/all-about-cortisol

http://www.luzimarteixeira.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Effect-of-concurrent-strength-and-endurance-training.pdf

dahat

Think this thread will be revisited quite a few times by some people. Some excellent links and info from posters.

jive

gambeta_fc wrote: »

- Would the general recommendation be to always eat something before doing any morning training when pushing beyond Z3?
- Are there any indicators to know if you're burning fat or muscle stores on low intensity training?
- For morning weights or strengthening sessions should I be eating a particular food type beforehand or is fasted fine?

If you're only training for an hour, fasted is perfectly fine. Do whatever feels best for you. If I eat 10 mins before training first thing in the morning I just feel bloaty and lethargic, by the time I've digested anything the session would be over with so it's pointless unless I'm planning on a long session (which first thing in the morning, I wouldn't!).

Don't sweat minor details like this. People seeking perfectionism is just an ugly form of procrastination. Worrying about eating a banana before training is long down the list of things that you could be doing better, flexibility and mobility being one area which could significantly be improved for most people.

pgibbo

Some good info on here too. Barry has some blogs & articles that are well worth a read.

Plastik

I’ve been doing fasting rides on the weekend, before breakfast and maybe also before lunch, depending on how long the ride is. The longer the ride, the lower the intensity. Also the more likely I am to meet my old friend, the Man with the Hammer. I might bring an Emergency Gel, in its glass tube, but I never use it, no matter how enthusiastic his visit is.

The Fasting Ride

outfox

ford2600 wrote: »

What are your goals btw? Does eating on long spins not suit you?

Sorry again dahat.
My chief goal is to avoid hunger pangs on the bike, and periods of weakness/lethargy/bonking. Not just on the bike, but off the bike too. I've noticed I get such pangs more when I've left my daily diet go to sh1te (more carbs, sugar, etc.). I've also noticed I rarely get these pangs or energy lulls when I'm controlling the diet (reduced carbs, little or no sugar apart from plenty fruit, high protein). As a example, I've left my diet get messy again lately, and yesterday had to have 4 fig rolls on a spin of 36 km. Which is obviously ridiculous. When controlling the diet last year, I could ride almost 3 times that distance without eating. I'm trying to get back to that level, but it's taking too long, and the wife keeps bringing sh1t food into the house which doesn't help!
I'm following this thread closely as I'm hoping that fasted cycling might speed up the switchover to glycogen burning.

Enduro

outfox wrote: »

Sorry again dahat.
My chief goal is to avoid hunger pangs on the bike, and periods of weakness/lethargy/bonking. Not just on the bike, but off the bike too. I've noticed I get such pangs more when I've left my daily diet go to sh1te (more carbs, sugar, etc.). I've also noticed I rarely get these pangs or energy lulls when I'm controlling the diet (reduced carbs, little or no sugar apart from plenty fruit, high protein). As a example, I've left my diet get messy again lately, and yesterday had to have 4 fig rolls on a spin of 36 km. Which is obviously ridiculous. When controlling the diet last year, I could ride almost 3 times that distance without eating. I'm trying to get back to that level, but it's taking too long, and the wife keeps bringing sh1t food into the house which doesn't help!
I'm following this thread closely as I'm hoping that fasted cycling might speed up the switchover to glycogen burning.

Fixing that diet is the more important step. Cut out the crap! Sounds like you know this yourself, so its just a matter of applying some discipline. Timing of exercise / fasted states etc is fine tuning for performance.

roosterman71

Little more about this on the Tour de Connemara page

ford2600

Curiosity got the better of me and said I'd do the SKT fasted. Have done similar distance previously but not with 4 decent climbs.

Just stopped for water at 100km and 130km (I use only one bottle, fashion victim I've grown to dislike bags) and felt fine to finish.

6hrs in total with at most 2 min stopped so not exactly quick but did very little in a group as left 5 mins early owing to sketchy riding I've seen on my last few sportives at start(2 in 3 yrs so not a big sample size😀).

Brought another two apples for a spin to be eaten when driving home!

Chuchote

But what about The Bonk? Doesn't cycling long distances totally fasting put you at risk of bad decisions and resultant accidents?

smacl

Chuchote wrote: »

But what about The Bonk? Doesn't cycling long distances totally fasting put you at risk of bad decisions and resultant accidents?

Don't know about others, but at modest speeds over a days cycling I tend not to get this so much. Over an 8-10 hour cycle I'd get quite tired for a bit at some point in the middle, but usually cycle through at an even slower than normal pace and get a second wind after about half an hour or so. Most longer solo spins these days I'd rarely stop for more than five minutes at a go (and still manage to be one of the slowest cyclists on boards) :P

As for bad decisions, as I get tired I tend to cycle more conservatively if anything. I could see it being a potential issue in a tight group you were trying to keep pace with.

Chuchote

Horses for courses. I'd always want to stop for a drum-up a couple of times on a long cycle, to replace fluids and sugar. I go doolally if I don't have enough food in me. Not a big meal, obv, it's hard to cycle with a full stomach, but certainly a decent breakfast to start out and snacky little meals along the way.

magicbastarder

i've bonked once before; back when i was on an old muddy fox mountain bike, went out for a spin which i expected was going to be less than 20 miles, and i reckon i must have done over 40. so after about two and a half hours, i hit the wall on the strawberry beds, and my speed dropped from about 17mph to 11 and i physically couldn't get it up over about 13. i had to get off the bike and push it up the hill at the angler's rest.

Miklos

I thought the whole point of this cycling lark was so we could eat loads of cake?

Chuchote

magicbastarder wrote: »

i've bonked once before; back when i was on an old muddy fox mountain bike, went out for a spin which i expected was going to be less than 20 miles, and i reckon i must have done over 40. so after about two and a half hours, i hit the wall on the strawberry beds, and my speed dropped from about 17mph to 11 and i physically couldn't get it up over about 13. i had to get off the bike and push it up the hill at the angler's rest.

At which point you're invariably passed by a car full of people who lean out and call "Taking your bike for a walk?" It's only as you exit the Parkgate Street gate that l'esprit d'éscalier strikes and you realise you should have called back "Taking your car for a sit?"

smacl

Chuchote wrote: »

Horses for courses. I'd always want to stop for a drum-up a couple of times on a long cycle, to replace fluids and sugar. I go doolally if I don't have enough food in me. Not a big meal, obv, it's hard to cycle with a full stomach, but certainly a decent breakfast to start out and snacky little meals along the way.

I start on porridge, which keeps me going for 2-3 hours, and then a banana or bar every 2 hours or so after that. I'd nearly always end up bringing food home that I'd brought but hadn't eat. Usually one stop to fill bottles and just for calls of nature outside of that. A quick photo for the pics thread here is also a handy excuse to get the ass off the saddle for a minute as needs be.

Chuchote

smacl wrote: »

I start on porridge, which keeps me going for 2-3 hours, and then a banana or bar every 2 hours or so after that. I'd nearly always end up bringing food home that I'd brought but hadn't eat. Usually one stop to fill bottles and just for calls of nature outside of that. A quick photo for the pics thread here is also a handy excuse to get the ass off the saddle for a minute as needs be.

Yeah, exactly the kind of thing I mean. Though I'm also a fan of Feasts, which somehow hit the spot exactly when you come into some village with legs atremble and need to sit down and watch the river for five or ten minutes, munching that icy chocolate ice cream with a chocolate heart.

magicbastarder

Miklos wrote: »

I thought the whole point of this cycling lark was so we could eat loads of cake?

cake?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9APdDdpe-eE

petethedrummer

Big fan of fasted cycling myself. Well not entirely fasted. I would have a coffee with double cream before I go out. Nothing solid, nothing sugary. Don't bring any food. Will stop for something when my breakfast eating training buddies start getting hungry and cranky.

shamrock2004

Chuchote wrote: »

But what about The Bonk? Doesn't cycling long distances totally fasting put you at risk of bad decisions and resultant accidents?

Agreed. It happened earlier the summer. I'll never forget it. I felt sick on the bike, started to feel really anxious and then I started swerving all over both sides of the road. Never ever again. I was lucky I didn't come off the bike or knock someone else off. That being said, I cycle with some lads who have raced for years and they don't each as much as a morsel of anything on long rides. They have trained their body to metabolise fat instead of sugars. I'm not there yet. However I have cut way back on what I eat on long rides now and I'm no worse for it.

mr spuckler

fasting? i have negative fat reserves and was hoping that cycling might help me gain weight

smacl

mr spuckler wrote: »

fasting? i have negative fat reserves and was hoping that cycling might help me gain weight

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5i1cJIwE7M