Fasted cycling.

jive

ford2600 wrote: »

Curiosity got the better of me and said I'd do the SKT fasted. Have done similar distance previously but not with 4 decent climbs.

Just stopped for water at 100km and 130km (I use only one bottle, fashion victim I've grown to dislike bags) and felt fine to finish.

6hrs in total with at most 2 min stopped so not exactly quick but did very little in a group as left 5 mins early owing to sketchy riding I've seen on my last few sportives at start(2 in 3 yrs so not a big sample size😀).

Brought another two apples for a spin to be eaten when driving home!

160km taking in nothing but water on the day is actually class, fair play.

harringtonp

Only noticed this thread yesterday for the first time. Great discussion and mine of information below from Pawlie which I believe... why... recent personal experience

In the early part of the summer was having difficulty getting to last years mid summer race weight of 77-78. In general I'm a fan of HIIT intervals and minimal training time but felt I was overdoing it and ignoring Z2 riding too much. Not wanting to be wasting our wonderful summer evenings training while I could go to the beach instead, I decided to use morning dead time instead. So from June 23rd started doing morning rides and have counted 11 since, a little more than 1 a week. Usually started a little after 6am with wakeup to bike being less than 10 minutes and cycles were 1:45-2:15 long. Tried adding intervals in on 1 or 2 but couldn't get normal levels so decided morning was best for steady Z2 cycling keeping as close as possible to an average of about 200W for the spin which is the in the upper half (but not the top) of Z2 for me and is the typical wattage I would see in a flattish A3 race where I ride in the bunch the whole time.

Anyway weight started coming off and in spite of eating habits not quite as good as last summer (lots of little black marks) I'm now seeing weights of 76-77 (and lighter the morning after a hard race or training session). I was wondering was it related to the morning stuff but wasn't sure and was considering things such as muscle loss and faulty scales to explain how I got to weights less than I've ever seen in recent decades. Then saw this post and it all started to make some sense.

Pawlie wrote: »

If you are wanting to burn fat as fuel you need to get on the bike straight after to wake up, either have a black coffee or glass of water before hand. Reason behind doing it the minute you wake up is due to your metabolism system not up and running, this helps with tricking your body into using fat for fuel.
If you are doing it on a turbo at home only ride on the bike for 30 minutes and gradually each week add on 10 mins, same goes for on the road but you can start at doing 1 hour long spins its easier on the road. You need to be riding in the aerobic zone to gain the benefits of this.
Do not ride at a higher intensity, you should not be sweating, if you are sweating you are only dehydrating yourself and you are loosing fluids and nothing more, you should feel like you are able to have a full blown conversation with someone if needed, no different if you were sitting down chatting. If you are riding too hard you will be burning carbs and because you have not had anything to eat you will start eating into your muscles and this will do more harm.
The huge benefits for lads that race is that the better they train their body to use fat for fuel the more carbs they can store for when the body needs to switch fuel source when intensity is upped and the same goes for when intensity drops, even if its for 2 mins the body will automatically switch to fat and not continue to waste or damage your Glycogen levels. The more trained your body is at using fat for fuel the more efficient you become on the bike and gradually you will be able to ride at a longer and higher intensity while using fat to fuel yourself.

Its one of the best ways naturally to burn fat and have your body become more efficient in any walk of life. One of my work colleagues that does Mau Thai does this every 2nd morning and he lost vast amounts of fat and it did not drain the life out of him, he has noticed too that while sparring he can do it for longer and feels a lot stronger during and after sessions. Like wise my brother inlaw started after xmas, he has no sporting background, just wanted to loose weight and was stuck for time as he is self employed and always in the car or sitting in office, he does 30 mins every 2nd morn on turbo straight after he wakes up and he has again he lost 10kgs since Jan, and again doing it right he does not feel drained or tired etc after it.

I have studied this while doing a degree in sports performance and did implement this into my own training from Sept last year, when tested in the lab it was exciting to actually see the correlation of how long my body used fat for fuel to when it then crossed over to carbs in relation to the power and heart rate zones.

harringtonp

Bringing this up again because saw an article on British Cycling

"If you are fully fasted, as well as being low on carbohydrates, you are also in a nitrogen/amino acid depleted state. This potentially could have a negative impact on recovery from the ride. So, if you take protein on during these rides, can you still get the fat adaptation benefits of riding completely fasted without compromising your recovery? The answer appears to be yes so, during these rides it is a good idea to sip on a protein drink."

If you're still out there Pawlie just wondering what your take on this is ?

Your formula (without protein) worked great for me last summer.

Pawlie wrote: »

If you are wanting to burn fat as fuel you need to get on the bike straight after to wake up, either have a black coffee or glass of water before hand. Reason behind doing it the minute you wake up is due to your metabolism system not up and running, this helps with tricking your body into using fat for fuel.
If you are doing it on a turbo at home only ride on the bike for 30 minutes and gradually each week add on 10 mins, same goes for on the road but you can start at doing 1 hour long spins its easier on the road. You need to be riding in the aerobic zone to gain the benefits of this.
Do not ride at a higher intensity, you should not be sweating, if you are sweating you are only dehydrating yourself and you are loosing fluids and nothing more, you should feel like you are able to have a full blown conversation with someone if needed, no different if you were sitting down chatting. If you are riding too hard you will be burning carbs and because you have not had anything to eat you will start eating into your muscles and this will do more harm.
The huge benefits for lads that race is that the better they train their body to use fat for fuel the more carbs they can store for when the body needs to switch fuel source when intensity is upped and the same goes for when intensity drops, even if its for 2 mins the body will automatically switch to fat and not continue to waste or damage your Glycogen levels. The more trained your body is at using fat for fuel the more efficient you become on the bike and gradually you will be able to ride at a longer and higher intensity while using fat to fuel yourself.

Its one of the best ways naturally to burn fat and have your body become more efficient in any walk of life. One of my work colleagues that does Mau Thai does this every 2nd morning and he lost vast amounts of fat and it did not drain the life out of him, he has noticed too that while sparring he can do it for longer and feels a lot stronger during and after sessions. Like wise my brother inlaw started after xmas, he has no sporting background, just wanted to loose weight and was stuck for time as he is self employed and always in the car or sitting in office, he does 30 mins every 2nd morn on turbo straight after he wakes up and he has again he lost 10kgs since Jan, and again doing it right he does not feel drained or tired etc after it.

I have studied this while doing a degree in sports performance and did implement this into my own training from Sept last year, when tested in the lab it was exciting to actually see the correlation of how long my body used fat for fuel to when it then crossed over to carbs in relation to the power and heart rate zones.

ford2600

harringtonp wrote: »

Bringing this up again because saw an article on British Cycling

"If you are fully fasted, as well as being low on carbohydrates, you are also in a nitrogen/amino acid depleted state. This potentially could have a negative impact on recovery from the ride. So, if you take protein on during these rides, can you still get the fat adaptation benefits of riding completely fasted without compromising your recovery? The answer appears to be yes so, during these rides it is a good idea to sip on a protein drink."

If you're still out there Pawlie just wondering what your take on this is ?

Your formula (without protein) worked great for me last summer.

Not sure what question means in terms of "fully fasted"; overnight, 24hr or what or duration of exercise.

If just overnight 10hr or whatever AND you have enough protein in diet for activity level I can't see a problem. Cycling/running etc are pretty catabolic sports and most people who cycle/run a lot could probably do with more protein.

If you have adequate protein in diet you'll have an adequate pool of nitrogen to handle a few hrs exercise. If you don't a protein drink on bike or shake after will probably make you feel better but are not really addressing the issue.

Protein primarily does its work when we sleep

doozerie

I've been doing fasted rides for about 3 years or so now. Every time is an experiment of sorts as I'm learning as I go and I have a lot more learning to do.

I took to fasted rides quite quickly, which surprised me. I mostly did solo fasted rides for a while so that I could set the level of effort myself. When I started doing group rides fasted I was pleasantly surprised to find that I had no problems (in the sense that I didn't blow up, the rides themselves were still tough but perfectly manageable without food).

My training hasn't been what it should over the last year and a half, so I've been wary about doing a fasted group ride with my club's racing group. The only way to find out how I'd fare was to do it so I headed out with them a few weeks back, fasted. It was a fast pace (for me), and I got dropped quickly during the hourly 10-minute efforts, but I was pleasantly surprised to find that I was able to cope overall.

At about the 100km mark we stopped so that some people could get food and/or coffee. I chose to consume nothing, but I got cold while we were stopped and I could feel my body easing out of training mode. It took me a while to warm up again when we re-started, a reminder of why I prefer not to stop on training rides (fasted or not).

By about the 110km mark I had an average speed of 30kph, I'd never got close to such an average solo so I was very interested to see how my body would handle it. I was certainly tired by then, but still coping. I got snarled up in traffic as we passed through a town that driving tests forgot, and I never saw the group again. I fully expected to bonk as I rode on solo - I was opting not to dig into the emergency food that I had in my pockets (still experimenting) - but it didn't happen.

I had 130km on the clock by the time I got home, I threw in a steep little hill near home that I "like", again to see how I'd cope. That hurt, but I wasn't assailed by leg cramps and I still didn't bonk, which was interesting.

In short, I continue to be surprised by what I can do fasted. I'm not advocating it for others, I'm still trying to figure it out for myself, but it works for me by any measure that I recognise. Even now though I'm not sure that I'm refuelling adequately afterwards, but as far as I can tell I'm faring at least a well a day or two later as I used to after tough non-fasted riders. I've also been on an LCHF diet for the last few years so that is another dimension. I'm trying to sort out my sleep routine at the moment, it has always been rubbish, and if I can get that "right" then it can only help too.

harringtonp

Interesting. I think you have to ask yourself why you are doing it and what you want to get out of it.

For me it was a drop in weight of 1-2Kg (having been the same summer weight for years) with the small benefits that go with it and with the spins being good quality Z2 sessions they were also reinforcing the aerobic base.

py

harringtonp wrote: »

Interesting. I think you have to ask yourself why you are doing it and what you want to get out of it.

For me it was a drop in weight of 1-2Kg (having been the same summer weight for years) with the small benefits that go with it and with the spins being good quality Z2 sessions they were also reinforcing the aerobic base.

This is the same for me. Always Z1/Z2 efforts as when I've tried tempo level efforts I just don't seem to have a good session. Usually no more than 3 hours at a time, though may experiment with the duration.

harringtonp

py wrote: »

This is the same for me. Always Z1/Z2 efforts as when I've tried tempo level efforts I just don't seem to have a good session. Usually no more than 3 hours at a time, though may experiment with the duration.

Most of mine were in and around the 2hr mark and top end Z2. Wake up time to bike was usually about 10 mins.

doozerie

harringtonp wrote: »

Interesting. I think you have to ask yourself why you are doing it and what you want to get out of it.

In my case I know why I'm doing it. It simply feels better than riding on a full stomach, riding fasted makes me less inclined to feel like eating food during the ride (generally, the more I eat, the more I feel like eating and in my high card diet days I was forever throwing carbs down my throat with no obvious benefit), and I feel better when I climb off the bike too.

As for what I get out of it, above and beyond the above that's harder to define. I believe I get training benefits (which are hard to quantify at the best of times), it possibly offers some of the benefits of intermittent fasting (even harder to quantify), I really enjoy the food I eat afterwards (also harks back to my high carb days when I ate food for fuel, and taste almost didn't matter), it fits well with LCHF, etc.

For me it was never about losing weight as I didn't feel I had weight to lose. And I haven't lost weight from doing it either.

More generally, it has also opened my eyes even further to the extent to which companies talk rubbish to sell their products. Sports nutrition companies would have me believe that what I am doing is terrible for my health. Who knows, maybe longer term I'll find that that's indeed the case but at least then I'll have some scientific evidence (i.e. me) to refer to rather than the kind of scaremongering self-serving guff that they peddle.

dahat

harringtonp wrote: »

Most of mine were in and around the 2hr mark and top end Z2. Wake up time to bike was usually about 10 mins.

Was this session done weekly or as a recovery type session?
How did affect the rest of your training plan given you do follow a high intensity training plan if my memory serves me correctly.

Doc07

doozerie wrote: »

In my case I know why I'm doing it. It simply feels better than riding on a full stomach, riding fasted makes me less inclined to feel like eating food during the ride (generally, the more I eat, the more I feel like eating and in my high card diet days I was forever throwing carbs down my throat with no obvious benefit), and I feel better when I climb off the bike too.

As for what I get out of it, above and beyond the above that's harder to define. I believe I get training benefits (which are hard to quantify at the best of times), it possibly offers some of the benefits of intermittent fasting (even harder to quantify), I really enjoy the food I eat afterwards (also harks back to my high carb days when I ate food for fuel, and taste almost didn't matter), it fits well with LCHF, etc.

For me it was never about losing weight as I didn't feel I had weight to lose. And I haven't lost weight from doing it either.

More generally, it has also opened my eyes even further to the extent to which companies talk rubbish to sell their products. Sports nutrition companies would have me believe that what I am doing is terrible for my health. Who knows, maybe longer term I'll find that that's indeed the case but at least then I'll have some scientific evidence (i.e. me) to refer to rather than the kind of scaremongering self-serving guff that they peddle.

Great post. The sports nutrition industry and indeed the 'health food' and supplement industry IMHO have NOTHING to do with health. They should be considered in the same category as designer jeans, make up, hair gel whatever, not inherently evil but purely a consumer product and a commercial entity.

harringtonp

dahat wrote: »

Was this session done weekly or as a recovery type session?
How did affect the rest of your training plan given you do follow a high intensity training plan if my memory serves me correctly.

Just looked back over Strava and I would have been doing 2 a week for several weeks and there were usually 2 HIIT sessions there as well which consisted of either intervals, club racing or open racing depending on the week. This load is well manageable as even though you need to concentrate during the fasted sessions to hold top end Z2 , 2 hours at this level is not too taxing.

In terms of plans, over the winter I'm structured but once summer comes the tight structure tends to disappear due to racing/sportives etc. And fasted cycling is definitely something for summer as going out at 6am on a winter morning would be quite miserable.

fat bloke

doozerie wrote: »

In my case I know why I'm doing it. It simply feels better than riding on a full stomach, riding fasted makes me less inclined to feel like eating food during the ride (generally, the more I eat, the more I feel like eating and in my high card diet days I was forever throwing carbs down my throat with no obvious benefit), and I feel better when I climb off the bike too.

As for what I get out of it, above and beyond the above that's harder to define. I believe I get training benefits (which are hard to quantify at the best of times), it possibly offers some of the benefits of intermittent fasting (even harder to quantify), I really enjoy the food I eat afterwards (also harks back to my high carb days when I ate food for fuel, and taste almost didn't matter), it fits well with LCHF, etc.

For me it was never about losing weight as I didn't feel I had weight to lose. And I haven't lost weight from doing it either.

More generally, it has also opened my eyes even further to the extent to which companies talk rubbish to sell their products. Sports nutrition companies would have me believe that what I am doing is terrible for my health. Who knows, maybe longer term I'll find that that's indeed the case but at least then I'll have some scientific evidence (i.e. me) to refer to rather than the kind of scaremongering self-serving guff that they peddle.

It's a funny one alright. It seems so counter intuitive to not add fuel to a burning fire. But as you say, maybe it's nothing to do with intuition, andall to do with perceived/pervasive marketing "wisdom". Iirc you're as lean as a butcher's dog so there's no need for you to try and lose weight.

How long are you at it now? Have you noticed or measured that you are stronger or weaker or similar? I dunno if you use a power meter.

doozerie

fat bloke wrote: »

It's a funny one alright. It seems so counter intuitive to not add fuel to a burning fire. But as you say, maybe it's nothing to do with intuition, andall to do with perceived/pervasive marketing "wisdom". Iirc you're as lean as a butcher's dog so there's no need for you to try and lose weight.

How long are you at it now? Have you noticed or measured that you are stronger or weaker or similar? I dunno if you use a power meter.

It depends on what fuel you are burning. If you are fuelled by fat, then adding carbs to that mix potentially switches off the fat burning engine in favour of the carb burning engine, the result may not be what you want. Low intensity effort can be fuelled perfectly well by fat and for very long periods. Fat-adapted endurance athletes are a great example of that, even where their events seem so demanding to me that the phrase “low intensity” doesn't seem to apply.

So I have no qualms about going out for low intensity rides fasted. What I’m still trying to figure out, even after 3 years of doing fasted rides, is at what level and duration of intensity I can’t rely on fat (plus glycogen) any longer. Putting it very simply (because that’s the extent of my knowledge on it, basically), at high intensity fat can’t provide fuel quickly enough so your body starts to eat up its glycogen stores as a more easily broken down fuel. The average person has enough glycogen for something like 2 to 2.5hrs medium to high intensity effort, before you start burning muscle (and at this point people tend to be keen to point out that your brain is a muscle and therefore…).

Hence people being wary of doing long or tough rides fasted. I’m wary too but I’ll never know if I don’t try so I push (well) outside my comfort zone at times. For that ride that I referred to earlier in this thread my (heart rate) stats tell me that of the 4h49m duration I spent 1h52m in z3, 43m in z4, and 6m in z5. It was a 137km ride, average speed of 28.5kph by the end, for many people that’s a very modest training speed over that distance but for me that was a tough and reasonably quick training ride and all fuelled entirely by the fuel stores in my body (and that by means of an LCHF diet), plus about 350ml of water with a pinch of salt in it while on the bike.

My derisory reference to sports nutrition marketing is because it would have you believe that such a ride is crazy, that stocking up on carbs in advance is necessary and that shovelling carbs down your throat constantly throughout the ride is absolutely essential. Some of them will even quote very specific figures at you about the number of grams of carbs you “need” to consume per hour and/or the volume of liquid you need to consume. I don’t believe that at all, it’s rare that anything so prescriptive is reliable anyway, but if an entirely average rider like me can confound their claims then that suggests to me that their claimed facts are dubious at best.

Recovery nutrition is arguably another kettle of fish too. Mine consists of a banana plus whole milk mixed with whey protein, and “normal” (LCHF) food beyond that. That doesn’t fit well with sports nutrition marketing either but it seems to work for me. The unknown bit is whether at some point in the future I’ll succumb to horrible ailments due to somehow harming myself in this way, only time will tell but in the meantime I just ignore the marketing.

As for getting stronger/weaker, I’m not sure that fasted rides play much of a part there, as such. Fasted ride should help improve aerobic fitness, which I guess is a fundamental part of any training plan to improve your FTP, but whether it does so more effectively than non-fasted rides I don’t know. I do believe that I’m better able for longer rides now than I ever have been but that is perhaps because I don’t subject myself to the sugar highs and lows of constantly eating on the bike as much as anything.

I don’t think my FTP now is any better than it was a few years ago, for example, but lack of regular and consistent training for long spells is certainly a factor there too.

C3PO

doozerie wrote: »

It depends on what fuel you are burning. If you are fuelled by fat, then adding carbs to that mix potentially switches off the fat burning engine in favour of the carb burning engine, the result may not be what you want. Low intensity effort can be fuelled perfectly well by fat and for very long periods. Fat-adapted endurance athletes are a great example of that, even where their events seem so demanding to me that the phrase “low intensity” doesn't seem to apply.

So I have no qualms about going out for low intensity rides fasted. What I’m still trying to figure out, even after 3 years of doing fasted rides, is at what level and duration of intensity I can’t rely on fat (plus glycogen) any longer. Putting it very simply (because that’s the extent of my knowledge on it, basically), at high intensity fat can’t provide fuel quickly enough so your body starts to eat up its glycogen stores as a more easily broken down fuel. The average person has enough glycogen for something like 2 to 2.5hrs medium to high intensity effort, before you start burning muscle (and at this point people tend to be keen to point out that your brain is a muscle and therefore…).

Hence people being wary of doing long or tough rides fasted. I’m wary too but I’ll never know if I don’t try so I push (well) outside my comfort zone at times. For that ride that I referred to earlier in this thread my (heart rate) stats tell me that of the 4h49m duration I spent 1h52m in z3, 43m in z4, and 6m in z5. It was a 137km ride, average speed of 28.5kph by the end, for many people that’s a very modest training speed over that distance but for me that was a tough and reasonably quick training ride and all fuelled entirely by the fuel stores in my body (and that by means of an LCHF diet), plus about 350ml of water with a pinch of salt in it while on the bike.

My derisory reference to sports nutrition marketing is because it would have you believe that such a ride is crazy, that stocking up on carbs in advance is necessary and that shovelling carbs down your throat constantly throughout the ride is absolutely essential. Some of them will even quote very specific figures at you about the number of grams of carbs you “need” to consume per hour and/or the volume of liquid you need to consume. I don’t believe that at all, it’s rare that anything so prescriptive is reliable anyway, but if an entirely average rider like me can confound their claims then that suggests to me that their claimed facts are dubious at best.

Recovery nutrition is arguably another kettle of fish too. Mine consists of a banana plus whole milk mixed with whey protein, and “normal” (LCHF) food beyond that. That doesn’t fit well with sports nutrition marketing either but it seems to work for me. The unknown bit is whether at some point in the future I’ll succumb to horrible ailments due to somehow harming myself in this way, only time will tell but in the meantime I just ignore the marketing.

As for getting stronger/weaker, I’m not sure that fasted rides play much of a part there, as such. Fasted ride should help improve aerobic fitness, which I guess is a fundamental part of any training plan to improve your FTP, but whether it does so more effectively than non-fasted rides I don’t know. I do believe that I’m better able for longer rides now than I ever have been but that is perhaps because I don’t subject myself to the sugar highs and lows of constantly eating on the bike as much as anything.

I don’t think my FTP now is any better than it was a few years ago, for example, but lack of regular and consistent training for long spells is certainly a factor there too.

Thanks Doozerie - that very much reflects my own experience of fasted cycling. I have also changed to a (more) HFLC diet over the last couple of years and have found loosing/maintaining weight loss much easier without the constant hunger pangs that I used to experience with my previous HCLF regime!

mossym

doozerie wrote: »

Recovery nutrition is arguably another kettle of fish too. Mine consists of a banana plus whole milk mixed with whey protein, and “normal” (LCHF) food beyond that. That doesn’t fit well with sports nutrition marketing .

really? sounds like it comes straight from the sports nutrition marketing gospel to me.

i did the post ride whey protein thing for a while. but now even after 5 or 6 hour training rides real food, with a focus on protein, is my go to. no need to be buyign specific proteins, loads of them available in your fridge/cupboard already.

i don;t see whey protien as any different (in marketing terms) as carb goods, or as a way to empty your wallet. it works really well, pool where i swim has a gym, latest fad is for all the mid to late teens to be pumping weights every day, straight into the changing rooms then where they are all chugging away on their whey post workout shakes. it's a sports nutrition company's dream, you can almost hear the cash registers cha-chinging


been watching them all grow muscle and body fat in equal measure. course most of them are chugging other stuff as well but that's not under the nutrition banner.
i find it tough to reconcile advocating whey protien while bashing other sports nutrition products as marketing. it's just biting off a different part of the same apple

fat bloke

doozerie wrote: »

you start burning muscle (and at this point people tend to be keen to point out that your brain is a muscle and therefore…).

We'll keep an eye on your syntax. If it's starts to go all Ralph Wigam, might be time to get the gels into ya

(Me fail English? That's unpossible!)

doozerie

mossym wrote:

really? sounds like it comes straight from the sports nutrition marketing gospel to me.

A whey protein shake is a convenient and quick way of getting decent protein. Of course it’s not necessary, there are many sources of protein from real/whole food, I choose it because it fits with my circumstances (limited time, etc.).

You can consider it as me falling victim to marketing, that’s fair enough, but sports nutrition marketing has some obvious truths amongst the self-serving guff - basically the body needs a certain amount of carbs, protein, fats, etc., to function, sports nutrition companies treat this as fact. I certainly don’t dispute that, I take it as a given, what I dispute is their claims of how much of each you need, how often you need it, etc.

So even if I were to rely entirely on whole foods as my source of protein after a ride, I could still be accused of falling under the spell of sports nutrition companies as they’ve been promoting the consumption of protein post-workout for some time.

doozerie

mossym wrote:

i find it tough to reconcile advocating whey protien while bashing other sports nutrition products as marketing.

Oh, and just on that, I am absolutely not advocating whey protein for anyone, I’m simply stating what I use that works for me (so far as I can tell). Likewise I’m not advocating that anyone else follow my approach to training, dietary choice, gear ratios, leg shaving regime, or cycling kit colour coordination for that matter.

I’m just relating some of my experiences as honestly as I can in case they are of interest to others, no more. I am a sample size of 1, I’m happy to question what I see as dubious information from sports nutrition companies based on my experiences but it’s clearly a poor foundation upon which to base advice for others so I don’t do so.

ford2600

Quote: doozerie
you start burning muscle (and at this point people tend to be keen to point out that your brain is a muscle and therefore…).

??

Brain is about 60% fat and isn't a muscle.

It runs entirely on glucose (except from people starving or on ketogenic diets). It burns about 600 cals a day which is quite something for something which weight about a kg.

When glycogen goes low, the brain shuts down the body burning its fuel i.e. the bonk. A negative feedback to stop.

The whole worry about catabolic breakdown of muscle isn't an issue if your diet is appropriate and your not doing mental distances

I don't use whey or anything else to supplement protein; but rather than being expensive it's a cheap way to get protein in. It's rank though; food reward circuits don't involve protein.

You'll buy some whack of bulkpowders whey etc for the price of two steaks.

Dr Louise Burke (Australian 5 time Olympic team dietician ) has a lot of studies done on hflc/fasted cardio and performance; there is not much evidence of performance improvement.

The advantages are more nuanced; same performance
*without digestion issue or having to eat foods which can cause issue
*healthier from a more nutritious diet

The whole timing window post exercise is nonsense for your ordinary Joe Soap IF diet is right anyhow.

There is some evidence of ultra athletes needing similar protein to lads squatting 2 times BW etc. The numbers always strike me a mental; for me at 85kgs it's 150g or so or about 20 eggs a day!!!

For an ordinary rider; sedentary lifestyle 100km-200km a week it's hard not to get adequate protein in diet is built on wholefoods. It's not even hard for vegetarians.

fat bloke

ford2600 wrote: »

For an ordinary rider; sedentary lifestyle 100km-200km a week it's hard not to get adequate protein in diet is built on wholefoods. It's not even hard for vegetarians.

I'm on a vegan diet now a year nearly and I'm 30-40w down on last year. Haven't a leg. Though my weight is stable and bang on. Can't help thinking it's lack of protein though I have a stupidly healthy diet, all the right pulses, beans, grains, greens, and blood tests consistently all in the pink for b12, iron etc etc.

mathie

fat bloke wrote: »

I'm on a vegan diet now a year nearly and I'm 30-40w down on last year. Haven't a leg. Though my weight is stable and bang on. Can't help thinking it's lack of protein though I have a stupidly healthy diet, all the right pulses, beans, grains, greens, and blood tests consistently all in the pink for b12, iron etc etc.

Are you the same weight as last year?

ford2600

fat bloke wrote: »

I'm on a vegan diet now a year nearly and I'm 30-40w down on last year. Haven't a leg. Though my weight is stable and bang on. Can't help thinking it's lack of protein though I have a stupidly healthy diet, all the right pulses, beans, grains, greens, and blood tests consistently all in the pink for b12, iron etc etc.

There are a few things to watch.
*protein uptake is lower with vegan sources so you need more than a dairy/meat eater
*uptake of certain minerals is effected by high fibre in diet
*uptake of minerals is lower from veg than meat/eggs etc

Sigma nutrition podcast 133 is made for you. Former Leinster rugby dietician now working with a lot of Vegan/Vegarian athletes in Canada.
Smart articulate lady

EDIT: just a fool.on the Internet BTW talk to your doctor!

doozerie

See, ford2600’s post is a good demonstration of why I shouldn’t, and don’t, try to offer advice on this topic as I’m fairly ill informed. I really wasn’t joking earlier when I said I still have a lot to learn.

The stand out point of his post though is that he thinks my brain is fat. That’s just rude, like.

ford2600

doozerie wrote: »

The stand out point of his post though is that he thinks my brain is fat. That’s just rude, like.

What's that Fathead? 😀😀

Macy0161

Well not going to argue with the nutrition experts, bar in my own experience, and as said whey protein is about the cheapest source of quality protein you can get. I don't mind it mixed with milk (my general "recovery" option), and it does help me get to my protein target and it's a quick and easy mix of protein and carbs.

I would say there's two things going on with protein, marketing wise. 1) The "bro science" has people consuming or targeting far more than necessary and 2) as whey is so cheap, we have all the bars, special pre, post recovery mixes, special food mixes etc. They're both linked obviously, as without the unnecessary targets, they wouldn't have the need to try and fit more protein through snacks, protein bread etc.

mossym

doozerie wrote: »

Oh, and just on that, I am absolutely not advocating whey protein for anyone, I’m simply stating what I use that works for me (so far as I can tell). Likewise I’m not advocating that anyone else follow my approach to training, dietary choice, gear ratios, leg shaving regime, or cycling kit colour coordination for that matter.

I’m just relating some of my experiences as honestly as I can in case they are of interest to others, no more. I am a sample size of 1, I’m happy to question what I see as dubious information from sports nutrition companies based on my experiences but it’s clearly a poor foundation upon which to base advice for others so I don’t do so.

honestly, wasn't having a go at you personally. what works for you works for you.

i was jsut questioning the cherry picking of whats useful.personally i think gels and sports foods have a place when used with a bit of common sense . are the requirements for consumption completely overstated? sure, but then again so is the recommended dosage of whey protein on most of the tubs i have seen, your body will end up spitting back out a lot of the protein as the body can't process it

all this stuff is hugely overdosed you you'll go through more of it and buy more . it's not without it's place, much as you said whey was a quick and convenient way of getting protein (i prefer peanut butter and a spoon myself) , some of the other stuff is a easy way of getting carbs and sugars into you when neededthat's not on your normal weekend 3 hour ride, but i'll go through a whack of them over 11 or so hours in may, and even a lot of guys i know who are very strictly LCHF every other day of the year turn to them if racing ironman cause they feel they are beyond what they can fuel by fat (while also knowing there are those who eat minimally as they are/believe they are fuly fat adapted)

agree 100% there is a ton of $hit around sports nutrition, but to quote a line from a song my daughter had playing constantly last year, "there's layer to the $hit playa". for me, i think you can avoid absolutes about it

py

In relation to the post meal shakes or whole food debate. For me, when I started to take a recovery shake (mixed with water... milk is for night time shake consumption) as soon as I landed home after a long or/and intense ride I noticed that recovery was much quicker. I'd consume food usually within an hour of landing too with a mix of carbs/protein in the meal.

fat bloke wrote: »

I'm on a vegan diet now a year nearly and I'm 30-40w down on last year. Haven't a leg. Though my weight is stable and bang on. Can't help thinking it's lack of protein though I have a stupidly healthy diet, all the right pulses, beans, grains, greens, and blood tests consistently all in the pink for b12, iron etc etc.

mathie wrote: »

Are you the same weight as last year?

I think you should be looking at body fat % in addition to weight. His weight may still be the same a year on but muscle mass could be down(or up). There's plenty of guides on youtube to measure body fat % and body fat calipers are cheap enough online too.

fat bloke

mathie wrote: »

Are you the same weight as last year?

Yeah I'm a consistent 70 kg now about 3 years. Dunno if my muscle:fat proportions have changed though.

Been thinking of reintroducing eggs to see if it'd make any difference.

ford2600

fat bloke wrote: »

Yeah I'm a consistent 70 kg now about 3 years. Dunno if my muscle:fat proportions have changed though.

Been thinking of reintroducing eggs to see if it'd make any difference.

You might not need to if being Vegan is important.

Have a listen, free expert pretty specific advise.

http://sigmanutrition.com/episode133

If you are eating very clean are you getting circa 6g of salt a day? Pretty common mistake on clean eaters.

What's your fat intake like? You need fat to make lots of hormones and no healthy native culture in the world didn't place a prized value on fat soluble vitamins from Inuits to Kitavans tribes thriving on a 90% sweet potatoe diet.

Chris masterjohn is the go to man on fat soluble vitamins