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Fasted cycling.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,861 ✭✭✭fat bloke


    ford2600 wrote: »
    You might not need to if being Vegan is important.

    Have a listen, free expert pretty specific advise.

    http://sigmanutrition.com/episode133

    If you are eating very clean are you getting circa 6g of salt a day? Pretty common mistake on clean eaters.

    What's your fat intake like? You need fat to make lots of hormones and no healthy native culture in the world didn't place a prized value on fat soluble vitamins from Inuits to Kitavans tribes thriving on a 90% sweet potatoe diet.

    Chris masterjohn is the go to man on fat soluble vitamins

    Apologies to doozerie for derailing his thread a bit but thanks ford 2600. I'll look up those links. Eating plenty of healthy fats and oils and nut butters, and I love me salt! Very very little junk food, rarely eat anything I haven't cooked myself and I'm a long time in the kitchen. I'm not durian rider lean or cut as in you won't see me whipping the t shirt off with any nonchalance shall we say.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,568 ✭✭✭harringtonp


    This thread got me going on them again. Did one this morning and yesterday, about 90 mins trying to focus on decent cadence and holding about 200W. Waited for enough light to start which was at 6:45


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,830 ✭✭✭doozerie


    Just as a by the by, I completed a 6-week training plan with TrainerRoad two weeks ago. This plan involved two 1hr turbo sessions during the week and one 1.5hr one at the weekend, every week. In my case I did a (tough) several hour group ride on the road several of the weekends instead of the turbo session.

    Every weekend ride or turbo session I did fasted. And for several of the weeks I did one of the mid-week turbo sessions fasted too. The turbo sessions were all sweetspot-based so the intensity was not high.

    I did a (TrainerRoad) FTP test on the turbo at the start, and another after completing the plan. My (modest) FTP had increased by 5% for the second test (also marks the highest FTP that I've recorded via the TrainerRoad FTP test, by a small margin). That is within the 3%-5% range of increase that TrainerRoad themselves state is perfectly achievable after 6 weeks of focused effort.

    So while I'm certainly not saying that fasted rides made me stronger, I can say that they don't seem to have been detrimental to my training (at this level of intensity, plus all the other qualifiers, etc.).


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,568 ✭✭✭harringtonp


    Just read an aqua blue article

    https://www.aquabluesport.com/blog/fasted-riding.html

    on this subject so thought I'd revive the thread. Most of the article is in here but I found this part interesting

    "Finally, we have said that fasted rides are on an empty stomach, but not quite empty is advisable. A black coffee (no milk, no sugar) before you set off has been proven to kickstart your fat-burning metabolism and also act as an appetite suppressant, warding off those early hunger pangs. And it tastes nice and wakes you up, which is a bonus…

    Many coaches also advise whipping up a no-carb shake of pure whey protein before a fasted ride, to either drink before you go or sip along the way. This is because when you are in a fasted state you will be low on carbs but also on amino acids and other essential nutrients. A pre-ride shake with at least 20g of protein and other essentials will help with post-ride recovery and offset potential muscle breakdown, while still giving you the fat-burning boost of a fasted ride."


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,786 ✭✭✭✭dahat


    Nice information, I'm going to try fasted cycling as part of my early Winter training to try shift some kgs. I can easily do 45-90 on turbo as I can tolerate that time on it now. It is also easier to control zones in the turbo.
    The protein I have is the High 5 recovery protein which does contain some carbs so I'll have to get some new stuff without carbs.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,102 ✭✭✭mathie


    Just read an aqua blue article

    https://www.aquabluesport.com/blog/fasted-riding.html

    on this subject so thought I'd revive the thread. Most of the article is in here but I found this part interesting

    "Finally, we have said that fasted rides are on an empty stomach, but not quite empty is advisable. A black coffee (no milk, no sugar) before you set off has been proven to kickstart your fat-burning metabolism and also act as an appetite suppressant, warding off those early hunger pangs. And it tastes nice and wakes you up, which is a bonus…

    Many coaches also advise whipping up a no-carb shake of pure whey protein before a fasted ride, to either drink before you go or sip along the way. This is because when you are in a fasted state you will be low on carbs but also on amino acids and other essential nutrients. A pre-ride shake with at least 20g of protein and other essentials will help with post-ride recovery and offset potential muscle breakdown, while still giving you the fat-burning boost of a fasted ride."

    Which product(s) contain protein but no carbs?


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,451 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    doozerie wrote: »
    Just as a by the by, I completed a 6-week training plan with TrainerRoad two weeks ago. This plan involved two 1hr turbo sessions during the week and one 1.5hr one at the weekend, every week. In my case I did a (tough) several hour group ride on the road several of the weekends instead of the turbo session.

    Every weekend ride or turbo session I did fasted. And for several of the weeks I did one of the mid-week turbo sessions fasted too. The turbo sessions were all sweetspot-based so the intensity was not high.
    Did you try with higher intensity stuff in the end? I wasn't particularly trying to do them fasted, but I really struggle with the VO2 Max stuff on an empty stomach*.

    *my listening would suggest that "fasted" isn't the same as no food. I normally skip breakfast before my group rides, but I really don't think I'm glycogen depleted at that stage based upon my Friday night diet!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,457 ✭✭✭ford2600


    Just read an aqua blue article

    https://www.aquabluesport.com/blog/fasted-riding.html

    on this subject so thought I'd revive the thread. Most of the article is in here but I found this part interesting

    "Finally, we have said that fasted rides are on an empty stomach, but not quite empty is advisable. A black coffee (no milk, no sugar) before you set off has been proven to kickstart your fat-burning metabolism and also act as an appetite suppressant, warding off those early hunger pangs. And it tastes nice and wakes you up, which is a bonus…

    Many coaches also advise whipping up a no-carb shake of pure whey protein before a fasted ride, to either drink before you go or sip along the way. This is because when you are in a fasted state you will be low on carbs but also on amino acids and other essential nutrients. A pre-ride shake with at least 20g of protein and other essentials will help with post-ride recovery and offset potential muscle breakdown, while still giving you the fat-burning boost of a fasted ride."

    I'm not sure copying what pro athletes do is of much benefit to your average sportive/leisure/A4 rider on here.

    No other athletes in the world, maybe with exception of cross country skiers, compete with the intensity or duration of pro cyclists in particular one day classics, world championships, Olympic road race type events. That is a world away from lads on here

    The two primary reasons to ride fasted are
    * fat adaptation
    * mitochondrial biogenesis

    For a pro rider the second one is going to be way more important and is probably the reason aqua blue and the rest are doing it.

    If you don't change the things that really matter (diet, better sleep, food environment, mental health etc etc) then long term fasted exercise won't do much for your weight loss.

    The energy and nutrient demand of pro riders are such that protein might be a good idea before a ride, because they need some much protein and given how much training they do and sleep they need spreading it out over the day probably helps to get enough in. That doesn't apply to a hobby cyclist with a remotely decent diet.

    Recovery drinks, carb this protein that is mainly marketing bull****


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,568 ✭✭✭harringtonp


    mathie wrote: »
    Which product(s) contain protein but no carbs?

    Unflavoured version of

    https://www.myprotein.ie/sports-nutrition/impact-whey-protein/10530943.html


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,786 ✭✭✭✭dahat


    ford2600 wrote: »
    I'm not sure copying what pro athletes do is of much benefit to your average sportive/leisure/A4 rider on here.

    No other athletes in the world, maybe with exception of cross country skiers, compete with the intensity or duration of pro cyclists in particular one day classics, world championships, Olympic road race type events. That is a world away from lads on here

    The two primary reasons to ride fasted are
    * fat adaptation
    * mitochondrial biogenesis

    For a pro rider the second one is going to be way more important and is probably the reason aqua blue and the rest are doing it.

    If you don't change the things that really matter (diet, better sleep, food environment, mental health etc etc) then long term fasted exercise won't do much for your weight loss.

    The energy and nutrient demand of pro riders are such that protein might be a good idea before a ride, because they need some much protein and given how much training they do and sleep they need spreading it out over the day probably helps to get enough in. That doesn't apply to a hobby cyclist with a remotely decent diet.

    Recovery drinks, carb this protein that is mainly marketing bull****

    As part of a few measures for a typical rider to improve and/or aid weight loss surely fasted cycling could help with that end goal?

    On it's own i see your point but from my limited knowledge it benefit with some other measures implemented as well.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,568 ✭✭✭harringtonp


    ford2600 wrote: »
    I'm not sure copying what pro athletes do is of much benefit to your average sportive/leisure/A4 rider on here.

    I'd argue that this is one case where doing what pros do is of huge benefit.

    I've certainly seen it in the past.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,457 ✭✭✭ford2600


    I'd argue that this is one case where doing what pros do is of huge benefit.

    I've certainly seen it in the past.

    Seen what?

    I can post links to fat adaption and mitochondrial biogenesis.

    Is that what you mean?

    Fat loss by changing nothing only introducing fasted exercise, is a RCCT I've yet to see


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,568 ✭✭✭harringtonp


    ford2600 wrote: »
    Seen what?

    I can post links to fat adaption and mitochondrial biogenesis.

    Is that what you mean?

    Fat loss by changing nothing only introducing fasted exercise, is a RCCT I've yet to see

    Logic is something like:

    1) A staple part of training for those doing sportives or lower level racing is 2 hrs of Z2 training.
    2) Most people train that anyway during the day or evening.
    3) By moving this training to early morning in a fasted state you
    A) Get any benefits that you would in the evening.
    B) See additional weight reduction (mine dropped considerably after a few weeks having been the same summertime for a few years) which means better climbing once you're not wasting muscle
    C) Use "dead" time for training though this is not everybodys cuppa
    D) Become more efficient in using fat in longer events and push that bonk further way


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,239 ✭✭✭plodder


    Macy0161 wrote: »
    *my listening would suggest that "fasted" isn't the same as no food. I normally skip breakfast before my group rides, but I really don't think I'm glycogen depleted at that stage based upon my Friday night diet!
    Exactly. Skipping breakfast is only half the story. Your muscles are a bit like a car's fuel tank. Whether you fill up the tank immediately before going out, or the night before, doesn't make that much difference. You need to take account of when you last ate, relative to your previous training session.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,786 ✭✭✭✭dahat


    I work off 8-;10hrshrs fasting which includes sleep coffee then fasted ride. I always try to get it done early as possible, 7am or so.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,457 ✭✭✭ford2600


    Logic is something like:

    1) A staple part of training for those doing sportives or lower level racing is 2 hrs of Z2 training.
    2) Most people train that anyway during the day or evening.
    3) By moving this training to early morning in a fasted state you
    A) Get any benefits that you would in the evening.
    B) See additional weight reduction (mine dropped considerably after a few weeks having been the same summertime for a few years) which means better climbing once you're not wasting muscle
    C) Use "dead" time for training though this is not everybodys cuppa
    D) Become more efficient in using fat in longer events and push that bonk further way

    Best of luck if you feel it works for you, my main point is that pro cyclists do it for two reasons (as listed earlier); they don't include weight loss.

    This study
    https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12970-014-0054-7
    concluded
    "To the authors’ knowledge, this is the first study to investigate body composition changes associated with aerobic exercise performed in the fasted versus fed state while subjects maintained a caloric deficit. It has been hypothesized that exercising when fasted forces the body to rely on using fat as a substrate rather than carbohydrate, thereby reducing body fat to a greater extent than performance of post-prandial exercise. Our results refute the veracity of this hypothesis. Although both groups lost a significant amount of weight and fat mass, no differences were seen between conditions in any outcome measure regardless of pre-exercise feeding status."

    along with a discussion of other somewhat similar studies.

    The reason pro cyclists do it is probaly on the basis of this and similar studies
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4886170/
    "CHO restriction before and during exercise induces work‐efficient cell signaling related to mitochondrial biogenesis"

    The only thing in your list that could follow from aqua blue is that fat adaptation
    is a benefit of fasted training. I agree with you on that but it is by far a secondary benefit for pro riders. It is the main reason I did/do it.

    There is no study I'm aware of which refutes the first study above. While it worked for you, where N=1 the control of variables that effect an outcome can be little tricky to observe and record.

    For someone trying to lose weight there is a load of things further down the tree with which people have some success

    EDIT: Found this podcast which should work
    https://sigmanutrition.com/episode57/


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