Out of pocket due to mold issue: in dispute with landlord

karlm13

Hi,

I would love some advice on a problem we are having with our landlord if anybody could help.

A really quick summary of the issues are -

We moved in on the 14th of August to a brand new apartment complex of "luxury apartments" which had never been lived in, on September 7th we noticed some of our clothes and shoes which were stored under the bed were getting mouldy and there was mould and dampness on some of the walls. We reported this to the letting agent who advised that this was down to the radiators not working properly and they would be fixed. Eventually they were fixed and the mould persisted, the landlord then advised that it was due to us drying clothes indoors ( obviously it is not possible to dry clothes outdoors all the time in our weather ), the problems got worse over the next few months and were reported to the landlord as they arose, including the kitchen cabinet doors warping, eventually a carpenter was sent out and he said he had never seen that amount of warping in cabinets which were only 3-6 months old.

Skip forward to December and the issues are still on going, on the 22nd December the landlord provided us with a dehumidifier and said keep that on all the time and see if that works. It made a small difference but we were still seeing a lot of damp and mould including mouldy mattresses which were reported back in November. All through January and Feb builders were out most days in our apartment and did everything including replacing windows, pulled up the carpet for 2 weeks and put down new carpet yesterday.

In January when nothing was being resolved and it had cost us a lot of money in expenses etc.. we decided the only thing we could do was not pay rent so we with-held last months rent and come February the issues were still not resolved so we did not pay in February either.

Yesterday after the carpets were fitted I received a phone call from the letting agent informing me that the carpets and mattresses were replaced and that he has just noticed we have not paid rent ( convenient I thought that he only noticed after he replaced the carpets eventually ). He was not happy with this and thought that it was unacceptable that we were looking for them to cover our expenses and not pay rent, I explained that I thought the situation we had to live in for the last 4 - 5 months wasn't acceptable and that was why we stopped paying rent and that the expenses were completely separate. He called me back today to say that they have agreed to allow us not pay January's rent in exchange for the expenses, unfortunately they expenses are greater than the months rent but the letting agent said that one months rent is a lot of money and that will have to do.

At this stage I am not sure if we did the right thing by not paying rent or if now it could have backfired on us. Hopefully someone can provide me with some advice on this.

Thanks,
Karl

McGrath5

You should never withhold rent, you are breaking the terms of your lease by doing so.

karlm13

Thanks for the reply, I understand that but is the landlord not in breach by not resolving the issue with an apartment where the mould is actually dangerous to be in? One of the builders said the only time he had seen mould of that extent was after 7 years of growth and not 6 months. Also withholding rent was the only way we could get them to finally get the issue resolved or even get them looking seriously at it. Thanks again

Gatling

karlm13 wrote: »

Thanks for the reply, I understand that but is the landlord not in breach by not resolving the issue with an apartment where the mould is actually dangerous to be in? One of the builders said the only time he had seen mould of that extent was after 7 years of growth and not 6 months. Also withholding rent was the only way we could get them to finally get the issue resolved or even get them looking seriously at it. Thanks again

You reported it and the agent and landlords obviously went to great lengths to rectify the situation even if it did take time ,
You should have negotiated an out of pocket expenses,
But your wrong withhold the rents and as stated above your breached the lease contract I'd tread carefully in the future

karlm13

Thanks Gatling for the reply, I probably did not include enough detail in the description but for the first 4 months of the tenancy absolutely nothing was done to rectify the issue other than the landlord coming out and taking photos of the mould. Each time he came back he said how shocked he was at the issues even though he had seen the same issues on the visits previous.

karlm13

I would have thought that an issue this serious would have been investigated substantially immediately instead of having to wait until month 6, half way through the lease for it to be looked at properly?

godtabh

karlm13 wrote: »

Thanks for the reply, I understand that but is the landlord not in breach by not resolving the issue with an apartment where the mould is actually dangerous to be in? One of the builders said the only time he had seen mould of that extent was after 7 years of growth and not 6 months. Also withholding rent was the only way we could get them to finally get the issue resolved or even get them looking seriously at it. Thanks again

drying clothes in doors will causes mold. The issue is yours.

Withholding rent isnt the only way of getting things done.

karlm13

That is fine it may cause mould but the mould was there immediately when we moved in, in a brand new apartment. Sorry I also forgot to mention that when they pulled up the carpets the underlay was soaking like a very wet sponge. Which everyone agreed was not caused by clothes drying indoors the odd time.

Is it not unacceptable to be living in an environment like that for 6 months? ( I am not sure maybe that response time is the norm? That is what I am looking to find out )

Michael D Not Higgins

Mould grows in humid conditions. If you're drying clothes inside, you must air out the flat not let the moisture sit inside.

Due to the level of mould growth that you're having, I'd be concerned if something else was happening. It could be that the ventilation is insufficient, there's a leak in an exterior part causing dampness in the walls, etc. but I assume this has been ruled out after visits from the landlord and other workmen.

Is there a particular place it builds up in general? You mentioned your bed and walls, was the mould growth only in your bedroom or other parts of the flat? How does this correspond to sources of moisture in your flat, e.g. kitchen, bathroom, wherever you dry your clothes?

Michael D Not Higgins

karlm13 wrote: »

Is it not unacceptable to be living in an environment like that for 6 months? ( I am not sure maybe that response time is the norm? That is what I am looking to find out )

The landlord has done something now, it's too late to start calling him out on it now. They've already agreed to let you off a month's rent.

For your information, if the landlord doesn't respond quickly, then you should send a registered letter setting out your expected (reasonable) response time, and should the landlord not meet that that you will engage your own contractor to address the issue, at the landlord's cost. That should wake him up to respond.

karlm13 wrote: »

That is fine it may cause mould but the mould was there immediately when we moved in, in a brand new apartment. Sorry I also forgot to mention that when they pulled up the carpets the underlay was soaking like a very wet sponge. Which everyone agreed was not caused by clothes drying indoors the odd time.

That's a pretty clear indicator of a leak, has it been found?

karlm13

Thanks a lot for the reply Michael. After they pulled up the carpets and dried the place out the dampness does not seem to have re-appeared. The apartment complex was lying semi completed for approx 3 years before they purchased it and finished it so it seems like the floor may have been damp before we moved in and there is no more leaks or anything now as everything seems dry? Originally we thought that dampness was coming in through the external walls as all the issues were near the external walls.

The problem is that they have only agreed to let us off rent because we witheld it and the amount we withheld does not cover the amount of expenses we had and sent them.

housetypeb

What are the expenses that amounted to two months rent?

Michael D Not Higgins

karlm13 wrote: »

Thanks a lot for the reply Michael. After they pulled up the carpets and dried the place out the dampness does not seem to have re-appeared. The apartment complex was lying semi completed for approx 3 years before they purchased it and finished it so it seems like the floor may have been damp before we moved in and there is no more leaks or anything now as everything seems dry? Originally we thought that dampness was coming in through the external walls as all the issues were near the external walls.

The problem is that they have only agreed to let us off rent because we witheld it and the amount we withheld does not cover the amount of expenses we had and sent them.

What expenses did you have? If for example, you needed to dry clean your clothes to get the mould out properly then it might be similar to say a fire causing smoke damage, which would be covered by your own insurance and your landlord is not liable. Since the source of the issue is still unknown, it's hard to assign blame.

I'd still be worried about the source of the water under the carpets. Someone isn't going to fit carpets over a big puddle in the first place so it had to get in there afterwards, so if it slowly built up, it's possible it could do so again.

Butters1979

godtabh wrote: »

drying clothes in doors will causes mold. The issue is yours.

Withholding rent isnt the only way of getting things done.

I dried clothes inside my apartment all the time without this problem. Explain how you know that is the cause? Did you personally inspect his apartment yourself.

The issue is much more than just drying clothes and is caused by something much more serious like a leak. Dismissing the problem like that is exactly how the landlord allowed it to drag out for this time.

But withholding rent is not something you should ever do, it breaks the terms of your lease and can lead to eviction. You're lucky they didn't peruse you for all of it.

karlm13

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

What expenses did you have? If for example, you needed to dry clean your clothes to get the mould out properly then it might be similar to say a fire causing smoke damage, which would be covered by your own insurance and your landlord is not liable. Since the source of the issue is still unknown, it's hard to assign blame.

I'd still be worried about the source of the water under the carpets. Someone isn't going to fit carpets over a big puddle in the first place so it had to get in there afterwards, so if it slowly built up, it's possible it could do so again.

That is a good point about the carpets being laid and I must follow up on that with them.

The main bulk of the expenses are from the dehumidifier going in which they agreed to cover the electricity costs of that as it was to be left on 24-7 for 6 weeks in the end, and the other was my girlfriend was extremely sick from a chest and throat infection for nearly 8 weeks and the doctors were unable to figure out why the anti biotics weren't working etc... until eventually we put together the mould and dampness and the landlord agreed to cover all these costs in conversation.

I wish I had pictures on this computer to show you just how bad the mould was but I am not talking about a small bit of mould, the bedframe literally had black mould going right the way through it and the bottom of the wardrobe which was approx 1/2 inch thick was completely rotted through.

karlm13

Butters1979 wrote: »

I dried clothes inside my apartment all the time without this problem. Explain how you know that is the cause? Did you personally inspect his apartment yourself.

The issue is much more than just drying clothes and is caused by something much more serious like a leak. Dismissing the problem like that is exactly how the landlord allowed it to drag out for this time.

But withholding rent is not something you should ever do, it breaks the terms of your lease and can lead to eviction. You're lucky they didn't peruse you for all of it.

Yeah that is what dragged out the problem, if you stroll around the other apartments clothes can be seen drying in them all and supposedly none of them have issues. It is a bit of a catch 22 when you have your drier in the same room ( kitchen / dining room ) as I believe that also produces a substantial amount of heat and moisture.

Prior to withholding the rent we did send a registered letter outlining all the issues and what had been done to date and unfortunately nothing happened after that.

punisher5112

Modern houses and apartments should not suffer with mould as they are meant to be well insulated and ventilated.

Many apartments have no clothes drying abilities apart from a clothes horse to dry them.

There is something wrong with insulation or vents or possible leaks or water ingress.

I dried clothes indoors in an apartment for two years without any problems at all.

Have been doing same in house and no problems.

Were vents checked op???

karlm13

Yeah vents were all checked, approx 10 holes were put throughout the apartment to try find the source and nothing was ever found. It is quite strange we were convinced it was coming from the external wall ( it is on quite a wet area of land ) but when they took out the window sills and skirting boards there was no evidence of water.

runawaybishop

karlm13 wrote: »

At this stage I am not sure if we did the right thing by not paying rent or if now it could have backfired on us. Hopefully someone can provide me with some advice on this.

Thanks,
Karl

You are in arrears, get it in writing that Jans rent was written off. Don't withhold rent, for any reason, or they are entitled to issue notice and if you then don't clear the arrears you get a notice of termination.

Michael D Not Higgins

karlm13 wrote: »

That is a good point about the carpets being laid and I must follow up on that with them.

The main bulk of the expenses are from the dehumidifier going in which they agreed to cover the electricity costs of that as it was to be left on 24-7 for 6 weeks in the end, and the other was my girlfriend was extremely sick from a chest and throat infection for nearly 8 weeks and the doctors were unable to figure out why the anti biotics weren't working etc... until eventually we put together the mould and dampness and the landlord agreed to cover all these costs in conversation.

I wish I had pictures on this computer to show you just how bad the mould was but I am not talking about a small bit of mould, the bedframe literally had black mould going right the way through it and the bottom of the wardrobe which was approx 1/2 inch thick was completely rotted through.

A dehumidifier is usually less than 1kW (I have one at 480W), but let's say yours is a large one at 1kW. 6 weeks of constant use would only be about €150.

karlm13

So that is €150 that surely the landlord is liable for? Especially after he agreed to it?

lcwill

punisher5112 wrote: »

Many apartments have no clothes drying abilities apart from a clothes horse to dry them.

There is something wrong with insulation or vents or possible leaks or water ingress.

I dried clothes indoors in an apartment for two years without any problems at all.
?

The law actually states that if there is no outdoor area for drying clothes then the landlord must provide a drier because regularly drying clothes indoors will often create damp problems in a small apartment, no matter how well built it is.

If you know of apartments with no clothes drying abilities apart from a clothes horse you should tell them that their landlords are breaking the law and should provide them with a drier.

Michael D Not Higgins

karlm13 wrote: »

So that is €150 that surely the landlord is liable for? Especially after he agreed to it?

And you got your month's rent off, what does that total?

And what are the expenses for your girlfriend's illness? Maybe 3 GP visits, say €150, antibiotics, another €50. This is all assuming the chest infection was related to the mould which can't really be proven and the landlord would be crazy to admit any liability. Yeah it's very likely it exacerbated it but again good luck proving it.

Nonetheless, €350 all in. Seems like you made a profit unless your monthly rent is less than this, which is unlikely.

Honestly, I'd be more worried with getting a proper solution to the leak/other source of the mould issue rather than tallying up the costs. Failing this I'd be looking for somewhere else to live.

runawaybishop

karlm13 wrote: »

So that is €150 that surely the landlord is liable for? Especially after he agreed to it?

Did you get it in writing that he'd pay for it? He could just say the cost is yours to bear due to drying clothes in doors. If you have issues like this you absolutely have to get your ducks all in a line before you go making claims of monies owed.

cruizer101

I realise it is not easy to find places to live but if I was you I would start looking.

The fact that the LL gave you dehumidifier and agreed to pay for electricity to me means he knows there is a problem in apartment. Some sort of leak or something.

Your best not to live in a place like that its not good for your health. I don't know details of you lease but I would be looking to get out of it, if the mould is as bad as you say I'm sure you can get out of it somehow.

Optimatic

We are just in the process of renovating our apartment, its a full gut with wiring, windows and doors included. We were advised to install an Aereco ventilation system, which we have done, to combat the humidity issue which leads to mold since we've insulated the place to the hilt, installed triple glazed widows and sealed out as many drafts as possible. it was an old building but solidly built. I've had issues of mold before in apartments and I didn't want to see it raise its head again after spending a fortune on the renovation so far. It cost us about €2,000 to install but haven't moved in yet so time will tell at how well it works but the principle is sound. Vents are in all the wet rooms, Kitchen, utility and bathrooms and are activated once a sensor in the vent detects a certain humidity level. The bathroom vents switch automatically on when you walk in also as a usual bathroom vent might.
This could be the solution that is needed, obviously its a lot more drastic than simply buying an appliance to combat your issue but drastic action against a drastic situation might be whats needed.

Best of luck and like cruizer101 said, you really need to think of your health first. Also, in the short term, you could use a HoMedics Hepa filter to clean the air of all the mold spores floating about and spreading onto everything.

CaoimheSquee

Has the landlord provided you with a tumble dryer as he is supposed to!
Sounds like an absolute nightmare for you OP.
I know it's really bloody hard but try and just get out. It sounds like a job that may take an awful long time to fix and relationship is already soured.
Best of luck.