Planning Permission Refusal options

m1b2k3

Hi all,

We had applied for planning permission and were refused although we didn't accept the refusal and withdrew the application. As a background story the road is a restricted regional road. We have met all the criteria set out in the Galway county development plan in terms of housing needs etc. We had the roads engineer from the council to visit the site and conform sight lines and road safety. We were refused on 3 grounds, two of which were sight lines and road safety and the other was down to the bulkiness of the house.

When we withdrew we asked our local Councillor to speak to the planners to see why we were refused on roads issues when the roads engineer had signed it off. Long story in the middle but now the council have 'agreed' but not in writing the road is no longer an issue. We have changed the house slightly to deal with their concerns of bulkiness, although we have had the plans looked at by consultants and a planner from another county council who both said there is no way this house could be considered bulky. We are now applying again. We also had our architect write up a detailed report showing how the house was deigned in line with the guidelines for the single rural housing

It really seems as thought the council do not want to grant planing on this site. They have also come up with a demand that they want someone to prove my brothers or sisters wont apply although the county development plan does not limit to one member of the farm family. They wont tell us exactly what they want. We have given letters but they are saying that is not sufficient

So my question is, if we apply and they refuse, which they probably will, on grounds such as the road or the house which are issues we have dealt with in our application is our only option to appeal to an board planala?

Poor Uncle Tom

m1b2k3 wrote: »

We had applied for planning permission and were refused although we didn't accept the refusal and withdrew the application.

This is confusing, were you refused planning permission or did you withdraw the application?

m1b2k3 wrote: »

As a background story the road is a restricted regional road. We have met all the criteria set out in the Galway county development plan in terms of housing needs etc. We had the roads engineer from the council to visit the site and conform sight lines and road safety. We were refused on 3 grounds, two of which were sight lines and road safety and the other was down to the bulkiness of the house.

The NRA will also have a say, when it comes to restricted regional roads.

m1b2k3 wrote: »

When we withdrew we asked our local Councillor to speak to the planners to see why we were refused on roads issues when the roads engineer had signed it off. Long story in the middle but now the council have 'agreed' but not in writing the road is no longer an issue. We have changed the house slightly to deal with their concerns of bulkiness, although we have had the plans looked at by consultants and a planner from another county council who both said there is no way this house could be considered bulky. We are now applying again. We also had our architect write up a detailed report showing how the house was deigned in line with the guidelines for the single rural housing

There's a lot going on behind the scenes in the above post with none of it in writing. This makes any future application very difficult for any agent, as essentially the application will be the same as the previous one, with just some additional he said, she said's added.

m1b2k3 wrote: »

It really seems as thought the council do not want to grant planing on this site. They have also come up with a demand that they want someone to prove my brothers or sisters wont apply although the county development plan does not limit to one member of the farm family. They wont tell us exactly what they want. We have given letters but they are saying that is not sufficient

Any planning application could have a sterilization condition attached, if they think additional traffic could lead to safety issues for the road.

m1b2k3 wrote: »

So my question is, if we apply and they refuse, which they probably will, on grounds such as the road or the house which are issues we have dealt with in our application is our only option to appeal to an board planala?

That would be your first option.

Speak to the planners and see what their concerns are and work with them, not against them.

m1b2k3

Sorry my post was confusing. We withdrew without accepting the refusal but were issued with the planners report withthe refusal reasons

The NRA have no say about this regional road, we have that in writing from the NRA and the roads department of the county council

Do you think the addition of the reports to our application makes any difference?

Does the sterilisation order prevent others from building? How long is it binding?

Obviously, we have been trying to work with the council. We have had 4 different planning meetings and our councillor has had numerous meetings on our behalf. We have done everything that has been asked. The frustration on our part is that they are telling us they are unhappy but not how to fix it. We have also had 3 different planners assigned to our case which is not helping as each planner seems to have their own areas they focus on. We have no alternative lands and no alternative housing. We meet the housing need requirements set out. We genuinely would be willing to build anything in any location at this stage as the process is going on nearly 3 years now!

Looks like if we get refused again on the same grounds we have addressed we will have no option but to go to an board planala

Poor Uncle Tom

m1b2k3 wrote: »

Sorry my post was confusing. We withdrew without accepting the refusal but were issued with the planners report withthe refusal reasons

OK, so there isn't actually a refusal on the site, at least that's good.

m1b2k3 wrote: »

The NRA have no say about this regional road, we have that in writing from the NRA and the roads department of the county council

OK, one less hurdle to get over.

m1b2k3 wrote: »

Do you think the addition of the reports to our application makes any difference?

The addition of any information to an application which would positively reinforce your proposals can only help your case, it also demonstrates to the planning department that you are taking the application seriously and that you are willing to put in the extra effort where it is necessary, If this falls on deaf ears at local level, it will help you later on at appeals stage.

m1b2k3 wrote: »

Does the sterilisation order prevent others from building? How long is it binding?

a Section 47 sterilization can be open ended, but any terms of agreement would have to be set down and agreed by the relevant parties to be binding. However, putting it on a condition of the planning forces your hand to appeal it, as long as it isn't illegal. The LA can't put a condition on a permission for your property sterilizing somebody else's property.

m1b2k3 wrote: »

Obviously, we have been trying to work with the council. We have had 4 different planning meetings and our councillor has had numerous meetings on our behalf. We have done everything that has been asked. The frustration on our part is that they are telling us they are unhappy but not how to fix it. We have also had 3 different planners assigned to our case which is not helping as each planner seems to have their own areas they focus on. We have no alternative lands and no alternative housing. We meet the housing need requirements set out. We genuinely would be willing to build anything in any location at this stage as the process is going on nearly 3 years now!

All of this information is crucial if taking an appeal. A Local Authority frustrating the application process because 'they don't like' an application is tantamount to negligence and is one of the main reasons An Bord Pleanala is in place. Keep as much documentary evidence of the efforts and meetings, etc., you have gone through, and be prepared to prove it at appeals stage.

m1b2k3 wrote: »

Looks like if we get refused again on the same grounds we have addressed we will have no option but to go to an board planala

If your case is as it seems here, I would not fear an appeal, in fact I'd welcome it.

m1b2k3

That is interesting about the sterilisation order. So my father owns and farms the land. At present my brother and sisters have no intentions to build as they are not based in the locality but I suppose one cannot predict the future so that may change, I cant tell. But what you are saying is that the LA cannot but a sterilisation order on my father's land as a condition of the planning permission? Or at least not a legal one?

I have been up and down whether going to on board planala would be a good thing. One side we will get an answer, be it good or bad at least we will know. On the other hand it is our final hurrah

Anyways, thanks a million of your advice. I really appreciate it

Poor Uncle Tom

m1b2k3 wrote: »

That is interesting about the sterilisation order. So my father owns and farms the land. At present my brother and sisters have no intentions to build as they are not based in the locality but I suppose one cannot predict the future so that may change, I cant tell. But what you are saying is that the LA cannot but a sterilisation order on my father's land as a condition of the planning permission? Or at least not a legal one?

That's not actually what I'm saying as I don't know your situation. What I'm saying is that if 'your site' is in your ownership then the LA can't legally put a sterilization condition on your planning permission relating to someone elses lands (your father). However, if 'your site' is still part of a larger landholding, then restrictions or sterilizations can be put on the planning permission as it would be all part of the same landholding.

m1b2k3 wrote: »

I have been up and down whether going to on board planala would be a good thing. One side we will get an answer, be it good or bad at least we will know. On the other hand it is our final hurrah

Anyways, thanks a million of your advice. I really appreciate it

If funds were not an object, you could also take a judicial review of the situation, if you thought the planning legislation was not being used, interpreted or directed correctly in the making of a decision in relation to your planning application.

m1b2k3

Thanks a million Poor Uncle Tom. The land is still in my Fathers name so they can put a sterilisation order on it. to be honest if they do that is fine, my only concern would that also restrict my father from building agricultural buildings??

I do believe that the planners in this case are not applying the relevant legislation and local development plans, but alas money is an object. Hopefully - although I am not at all optimistic - we will get a better outcome with this application, and if we dont, hopefully - they dont reject us on items we have dealt with! That is probably asking too much though! :-)

Poor Uncle Tom

m1b2k3 wrote: »

Thanks a million Poor Uncle Tom. The land is still in my Fathers name so they can put a sterilisation order on it. to be honest if they do that is fine, my only concern would that also restrict my father from building agricultural buildings??

No it shouldn't restrict agricultural development, but as said earlier the specifics should be agreed before signing, after all the sterilization order is just a contract.

m1b2k3 wrote: »

I do believe that the planners in this case are not applying the relevant legislation and local development plans, but alas money is an object. Hopefully - although I am not at all optimistic - we will get a better outcome with this application, and if we dont, hopefully - they dont reject us on items we have dealt with! That is probably asking too much though! :-)

If you think it will be refused you should start to prepare your own report for the appeal. The appeal should just cost you €220 if you are making it yourself.

Best of luck with your application.

Bullocks

Are these clauses that don't allow your siblings to build common ? It's a pretty harsh rule .

m1b2k3

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

If you think it will be refused you should start to prepare your own report for the appeal. The appeal should just cost you €220 if you are making it yourself.

Sorry one other question on this, for an appeal report do we just go over what has happened and the reasons we feel their rejection is unfair? Do we submit a copy of the application with it?


Bullocks - there is nothing about it in the Galway County Development plan, in fact they specifically say in the housing need section members of the farm family. But it seems that they can enforce them. Although I have been told its not that common.

I can't understand why they cannot assess any application on its own merits. If one of my siblings wanted to apply in the future I am really baffled as to why they shouldn't be allowed as a condition of my planning. Whether they are granted it or not is a separate matter. But then again this far down the rabbit hole nothing surprises me anymore.

Metric Tensor

Although it can happen OP, in my experience, it is quite rare in County Galway. We do a lot of rural permissions in Galway and I haven't seen a sterilisation order of this type yet.

That's not to say that I haven't seen refusals or other conditions I felt were unfair or not in keeping with the Development Plan - but I haven't seen any sterilisation orders in the context we are talking about here.

m1b2k3

Metric Tensor wrote: »

Although it can happen OP, in my experience, it is quite rare in County Galway. We do a lot of rural permissions in Galway and I haven't seen a sterilisation order of this type yet.

That's not to say that I haven't seen refusals or other conditions I felt were unfair or not in keeping with the Development Plan - but I haven't seen any sterilisation orders in the context we are talking about here.

Hi Metric Tensor, no they have not suggested it to us at this stage but what has happened is that in the meetings between the planner and the county councillor the planner has asked us for stronger reassurance that my siblings wont apply. My father and I have both written letters saying there is no 'anticipated' housing needs. The county Development Plan does outline that the council should be notified of any anticipated needs. But the planners are saying this is not sufficient. Having spoken to our solicitor etc there doesn't seem to be much more we can give. Our solicitor has not come across this. In your dealings with the Galway Planners have you come across this? And if so, how did you overcome it?

It seems to me they are looking for reasons to refuse us, I think they don't want to give us planning permission as it would set precedent on the restricted regional road but they have allowed for it in the county development plan so seem to be throwing every possible roadblock in our way :-(

Metric Tensor

m1b2k3 wrote: »

In your dealings with the Galway Planners have you come across this? And if so, how did you overcome it?

I haven't come across it before so I don't really have any useful advice. I'd consider it outrageous that they would be looking for any assurances precluding future applications. If they don't like future applications let them take those applications on their own merit when/if they arrive. What I have seen is planners make up their own mind that they thought there was attempts to pull the wool over their eyes - this is understandable in some cases as plenty of people do try to shimmy around the system. (Not accusing you here btw!!)

It seems to me they are looking for reasons to refuse us

I have seen this before and there's very little that can be done. Persistence is the only advise I can offer. I know it's impossible not to feel personally about it but I've seen some people do all sorts of crazy things they thought would help because they are blinded by rage/upset - follow the guidance of your professional - they are best positioned to advise you what might help and more importantly what might hurt.

m1b2k3

Metric Tensor wrote: »

I haven't come across it before so I don't really have any useful advice. I'd consider it outrageous that they would be looking for any assurances precluding future applications. If they don't like future applications let them take those applications on their own merit when/if they arrive. What I have seen is planners make up their own mind that they thought there was attempts to pull the wool over their eyes - this is understandable in some cases as plenty of people do try to shimmy around the system. (Not accusing you here btw!!)

Oh if I knew a way to shimmy around the system I would have done so already :-) :-)

Metric Tensor wrote: »

I have seen this before and there's very little that can be done. Persistence is the only advise I can offer. I know it's impossible not to feel personally about it but I've seen some people do all sorts of crazy things they thought would help because they are blinded by rage/upset - follow the guidance of your professional - they are best positioned to advise you what might help and more importantly what might hurt.

And I can fully understand how people do let their emotions take over. Its a very hard thing to go through, you are waiting and waiting to build a home for your family to be constantly knocked back. We are in a position now where we will have to decide what to do if we get refused again. We are 3 years down this track and if we get refused again we will have to go to the board. We cant wait around forever to have a home. If we don't get it we will have to look at maybe buying a site that has planning or a better prospect of getting planning in the area or something. The options are very limited in the area we are living but we will just have no choice. We have a one year old and the house we are in is not really suitable anymore!

Anyways sorry I am ranting now! :-) :-) :-)