Some thoughts on the election generally. What do you think?

meglome

A few thoughts on the election.

1. Don't say "I will vote for x as it can't get worse", of course it can get worse.
2. Voting independent is all well and good but many of them are only concerned with local issues. The country does not begin and end at the parish boundary. Too many individuals asking for too many things can make things worse for us all. Be careful.
3. Don't vote Fianna Fail. They need to be taught a lesson for their stupidity and incompetence.
4. Keep in mind that we kept voting Fianna Fail to get ourselves into this mess. The scary thing is they mostly did what they said they'd do, just not that many people cared about the consequences. Take a good look at yourself before you vote.
5. Stop blaming Fine Gael & Labour for the price of chips, that someone ate your baby, that the sky is falling down or whatever massive exaggeration is doing the rounds this week. I wouldn't agree with everything they did but they have not even been half as bad as people keep whining about. (I actually agreed with something Enda Kenny said about the whining, who knew).
6. Anyone who says they will not charge you for water is lying. Simple as. Don't complain afterwards. To fix our water is costing a massive amount of cash it has to be paid somehow. Far better it's paid for by usage so it's fair (yes paying by usage is fair). People like me who already pay for water are tired of also paying for everyone else's in tax.
7. Our politicians are often bull****ters but the left are usually by far the worst. It's free stuff for all. Most of them know they won't get into government so can tell you any porky they like. If they don't do the things that were going to be impossible to do it's the government's fault. Bull****.
8. Water again. Fine Gael got elected on a manifesto that said they'd charge for water. So for the love of jebus stop complaining about them doing what they said. (Not that Irish Water started off too well). And we DO NOT PAY FOR WATER TWICE (well I do but let's leave that aside). If water costs €100 and we pay €40 from taxes, and €40 from meters, and €20 from borrowing, that's paying for water once but from multiple sources. It's simple logic.
9. Yes the press can be anti Sinn Fein for example but that doesn't mean the press is wrong in what they are saying. Either the story is true or not, the motivation for the story is mostly irrelevant.
10. Deal with the issues. Calling Enda or whoever a bollix doesn't help you or anyone. A businessman challenged Mary Lou the other week about Sinn Fein policies. But on facebook the stories went around attacking the guy who asked the questions, not one of them said anything about the truth of what he said. Play the ball not the man.
11. Look for proof for claims. For example we're to believe that Denis O'Brien is the devil and has the government in his pocket. That could be true but hearsay and claims don't make it true. Imagine you went into court and some people made some wild claims about you without any proof and you got convicted. Is it okay to convict on opinion?
12. Yes it is our debt. We borrowed most of if for the day to day running of the country, not the banks. If we had a time machine we'd go back and probably not do a blanket guarantee or save Anglo. But we don't have a time machine.
13. WE DID NOT BAIL OUT GERMAN BANKS. People have said this as fact all along but it simply isn't. Linked is the detailed analysis from Philip Lane of Trinity College (now Central Bank governor) which shows the facts. (It shows our banks borrowed the money from the UK and the US). Enjoy.

(I thought someone on another post calling our whining like group-think but group-whine was brilliantly put. So much of what's been said is so overboard it's ridiculous and damaging).

filbert the fox

There needs to be more local input in government. Not just contacting your TD/councillor cos you can't be bothered filling out a form or claiming something you're not entitled to, but Real community stuff.

I watched Eco Eye recently and the Danes welcome e.g. wind farms. Strangely they can't hear them and they don't affect Danish wildlife. ?why, because they have literally a vested interest, they have shares in the venture.

This is just one example of the community agreeing to something progressive. We need a lot more of this type of thing to change the mindset of them and us.

TripleC

You echoed many of my feelings in that op!!

eagle eye

After the debate last night the biggest thought I had was that the leaders of three of the four major parties are too old. They are not suitable for the leadership role as they are not able to react quickly to a surprise question/comment.

Michael Martin has been having the time of his life in these debates just because he is younger and sharper than the others.

These people are the front line and a lot of voters look at them and if they don't think they are up to it then they won't vote for their party.

meglome

eagle eye wrote: »

After the debate last night the biggest thought I had was that the leaders of three of the four major parties are too old. They are not suitable for the leadership role as they are not able to react quickly to a surprise question/comment.

Michael Martin has been having the time of his life in these debates just because he is younger and sharper than the others.

These people are the front line and a lot of voters look at them and if they don't think they are up to it then they won't vote for their party.

I can't even watch those debates. Still I'd rather Kenny to Martin or Adams though that's not saying much.

Deep Six

Good post OP and you make some valid points, but I do take issue with the roll over and die attitude you have to water charges.

There are too many questions left unanswered about the introduction of these charges to make them any bit palatable. If you are familiar with the EU water framework directive, article 9.4 outlines that Ireland (and only Ireland) is exempt from charging for domestic water. Why was this ignored and what reason (other than extra revenue for the government) was there to push through with domestic charging?

We do pay for water in our taxes already. We also seem to pay for it through completely unrelated taxes e.g motor. I won't even start on the general backhandedness in appointing directors and the general cluster**** the IW set up was overall, not to mention the money spent on metering could have gone a long way to fixing the actual issue with our supply (wastage through unfit pipe networks).

I haven't paid them yet and I won't, there's simply too much dirt on the IW name to accept it. I believe they can be and will be removed by the next government, and anybody foolish enough to have paid so far will be feeling very short changed indeed.

Parachutes

Anything else you want us to do, your highness?

tipptom

meglome wrote: »

A few thoughts on the election.

1. Don't say "I will vote for x as it can't get worse", of course it can get worse.
2. Voting independent is all well and good but many of them are only concerned with local issues. The country does not begin and end at the parish boundary. Too many individuals asking for too many things can make things worse for us all. Be careful.
3. Don't vote Fianna Fail. They need to be taught a lesson for their stupidity and incompetence.
4. Keep in mind that we kept voting Fianna Fail to get ourselves into this mess. The scary thing is they mostly did what they said they'd do, just not that many people cared about the consequences. Take a good look at yourself before you vote.
5. Stop blaming Fine Gael & Labour for the price of chips, that someone ate your baby, that the sky is falling down or whatever massive exaggeration is doing the rounds this week. I wouldn't agree with everything they did but they have not even been half as bad as people keep whining about. (I actually agreed with something Enda Kenny said about the whining, who knew).
6. Anyone who says they will not charge you for water is lying. Simple as. Don't complain afterwards. To fix our water is costing a massive amount of cash it has to be paid somehow. Far better it's paid for by usage so it's fair (yes paying by usage is fair). People like me who already pay for water are tired of also paying for everyone else's in tax.
7. Our politicians are often bull****ters but the left are usually by far the worst. It's free stuff for all. Most of them know they won't get into government so can tell you any porky they like. If they don't do the things that were going to be impossible to do it's the government's fault. Bull****.
8. Water again. Fine Gael got elected on a manifesto that said they'd charge for water. So for the love of jebus stop complaining about them doing what they said. (Not that Irish Water started off too well). And we DO NOT PAY FOR WATER TWICE (well I do but let's leave that aside). If water costs €100 and we pay €40 from taxes, and €40 from meters, and €20 from borrowing, that's paying for water once but from multiple sources. It's simple logic.
9. Yes the press can be anti Sinn Fein for example but that doesn't mean the press is wrong in what they are saying. Either the story is true or not, the motivation for the story is mostly irrelevant.
10. Deal with the issues. Calling Enda or whoever a bollix doesn't help you or anyone. A businessman challenged Mary Lou the other week about Sinn Fein policies. But on facebook the stories went around attacking the guy who asked the questions, not one of them said anything about the truth of what he said. Play the ball not the man.
11. Look for proof for claims. For example we're to believe that Denis O'Brien is the devil and has the government in his pocket. That could be true but hearsay and claims don't make it true. Imagine you went into court and some people made some wild claims about you without any proof and you got convicted. Is it okay to convict on opinion?
12. Yes it is our debt. We borrowed most of if for the day to day running of the country, not the banks. If we had a time machine we'd go back and probably not do a blanket guarantee or save Anglo. But we don't have a time machine.
13. WE DID NOT BAIL OUT GERMAN BANKS. People have said this as fact all along but it simply isn't. Linked is the detailed analysis from Philip Lane of Trinity College (now Central Bank governor) which shows the facts. (It shows our banks borrowed the money from the UK and the US). Enjoy.

(I thought someone on another post calling our whining like group-think but group-whine was brilliantly put. So much of what's been said is so overboard it's ridiculous and damaging).

And this has been a party political broadcast on behalf of the FG party.

meglome

Deep Six wrote: »

Good post OP and you make some valid points, but I do take issue with the roll over and die attitude you have to water charges.

There are too many questions left unanswered about the introduction of these charges to make them any bit palatable. If you are familiar with the EU water framework directive, article 9.4 outlines that Ireland (and only Ireland) is exempt from charging for domestic water. Why was this ignored and what reason (other than extra revenue for the government) was there to push through with domestic charging?

We do pay for water in our taxes already. We also seem to pay for it through completely unrelated taxes e.g motor. I won't even start on the general backhandedness in appointing directors and the general cluster**** the IW set up was overall, not to mention the money spent on metering could have gone a long way to fixing the actual issue with our supply (wastage through unfit pipe networks).

I haven't payed them yet and I won't, there's simply too much dirt on the IW name to accept it. I believe they can be and will be removed by the next government, and anybody foolish enough to have paid so far will be feeling very short changed indeed.

Well I'd strongly disagree with you there. Even before I personally paid for water in a private scheme I thought it was right that those who use the most water pay the most. It works perfectly for any consumable like electricity, like gas and in all the Western world for water.

No government can afford to stop it. When you have the middle class and above paying 52% tax where do you push that tax instead? Where is it fair to push it? It's fair that user pays. Sorry but anyone who says they'll get rid of it will just move it around and call it the People's Front of Judea instead of the Judean People's front. It'll just be a big con job.

Metering costs money but there has never been a better way shown to manage water in the long run. How do you find leaks if there's no way to find them? Metering promotes conservation, it's helps you find leaks and it pays directly for upgrades.

And not to get into a whole long winded debate but we clearly don't pay for water currently. We've been borrowing large sums of money which is not paying for it. Nearly all government expenditure is paid out from multiple sources. I have no idea where people got the idea that it was ever otherwise.

johnnyskeleton

Parachutes wrote: »

Anything else you want us to do, your highness?

Mod note:

Please read the charter before posting again. This jibe at the OP adds nothing of substance to the thread.

tipptom wrote: »

And this has been a party political broadcast on behalf of the FG party.

Mod note:

Youre of the view that the OPs views are very similar to FG and thats fine. Why not say that and discuss the pros and cons either way. The ad hominem accusation of shilling for a party adds nothing.

meglome

I haven't the slightest idea who I'll be voting for. All I've pointed out is some of the worst crap that has been spouted recently.

gandalf

meglome wrote: »

Well I'd strongly disagree with you there. Even before I personally paid for water in a private scheme I thought it was right that those who use the most water pay the most. It works perfectly for any consumable like electricity, like gas and in all the Western world for water.

No government can afford to stop it. When you have the middle class and above paying 52% tax where do you push that tax instead? Where is it fair to push it? It's fair that user pays. Sorry but anyone who says they'll get rid of it will just move it around and call it the People's Front of Judea instead of the Judean People's front. It'll just be a big con job.

Metering costs money but there has never been a better way shown to manage water in the long run. How do you find leaks if there's no way to find them? Metering promotes conservation, it's helps you find leaks and it pays directly for upgrades.

And not to get into a whole long winded debate but we clearly don't pay for water currently. We've been borrowing large sums of money which is not paying for it. Nearly all government expenditure is paid out from multiple sources. I have no idea where people got the idea that it was ever otherwise.

You see the biggest problem I have with the current Government is the complete and utter car crash they have created with the setup of Irish Water. I do believe that it was originally conceived with the purpose of being spun off privately. When I voted for FG (I gave them 1st and 2nd preferences in the last GE) it was with the purpose of reform, the purpose of ensuring that we the taxpayer were getting value for money and that Quangos are a thing of the past. Lo and behold they set up a Super Quango and populate its higher Management with people who failed at Higher Management in Public Bodies.

I think they tried to bring this whole water charge situation in too quickly and at a time when people were already hurting financially. If they had waited a couple of years and maybe used the €1 billion and more they have blown on fixing the most urgent leaks then I believe people would have been willing to listen. They didn't. Now there are water meters in situ that won't be used for any real chargeable purpose because their lifespan is 10 years? Also I live in a property that can't be metered so I have absolutely no incentive to limit my usage at all. Unforgivably they have also allow eejits like Paul Murphy gain a platform and get into the Dail and they will probably have added to the number of these social justice warrior type who is of absolutely no use in a National Parliament.

TripleC

gandalf wrote: »

You see the biggest problem I have with the current Government is the complete and utter car crash they have created with the setup of Irish Water. I do believe that it was originally conceived with the purpose of being spun off privately. When I voted for FG (I gave them 1st and 2nd preferences in the last GE) it was with the purpose of reform, the purpose of ensuring that we the taxpayer were getting value for money and that Quangos are a thing of the past. Lo and behold they set up a Super Quango and populate its higher Management with people who failed at Higher Management in Public Bodies.

I think they tried to bring this whole water charge situation in too quickly and at a time when people were already hurting financially. If they had waited a couple of years and maybe used the €1 billion and more they have blown on fixing the most urgent leaks then I believe people would have been willing to listen. They didn't. Now there are water meters in situ that won't be used for any real chargeable purpose because their lifespan is 10 years? Also I live in a property that can't be metered so I have absolutely no incentive to limit my usage at all. Unforgivably they have also allow eejits like Paul Murphy gain a platform and get into the Dail and they will probably have added to the number of these social justice warrior type who is of absolutely no use in a National Parliament.

The thing is the number of quangos has actually reduced. But of course the blanket focus on the creation of Irish Water gives the false impression that this is not the case.

I will go out on a limb here and state that whenever something like Irish Water was established, it was always going to be controversial. The media were gunning for it from day one and determined to gain readership and listenership by creating outrage. For example, the long running saga regarding consultants. Likewise, the extreme left were always going to use Water Charges as a trojan horse to raise their profile. And the media for the above reasons were more then happy to give them an often unchallenged platform on which to pour vitriol over the whole political process.

I will go one step further, if many of the utilities we take for granted today such as the ESB were established with todays level of media cynicism and scrutiny then they would garner the same level of hostility.

Thats not to say mistakes weren't made. They very obviously were but alot of the controversies were something and nothing, but a public fed up of austerity were prepared to get angry over anything without rationality entering the debate.

I think your point about allowing the water infrastructure to collapse first before establishing IW is extremely glib. Were that to happen it could cuase serious economic and social damage to society. Of course, then we would most likely have the media and far left screaming for the establishment of a well funded state owned water utility!!

Lastly, and this isn't aimed at you I hasten to add, but I am really tired of hearing people say "I voted FG last time, but never again, they lied about water charges". This lie is trotted out all the time and couldn't be more untrue. The introduction of water charges was squarely visable among the taxation measures in FGs manifesto in 2011. Moreover, they were covered doubly as in the employment creation section the installation of water meters received prominent coverage because of the estimated 1800 jobs it would create. It baffles me that people are not reminded of this more often.

Then again, in the run up to 2011, many in the media caustically lamented the fact that FF were too populist and why oh why could we not have a Government prepared to take implement, and defend tough but necessary decisions. Well, we got one but the media and much of the public decided thats its easier to complain.

GJG

Representatives Fine Gael, Fianna Fáil and Sinn Féin answer tough questions for their parties on the latest edition of the bumper election edition of the Here's How podcast - click for a free download:

Godge

Deep Six wrote: »

Good post OP and you make some valid points, but I do take issue with the roll over and die attitude you have to water charges.

There are too many questions left unanswered about the introduction of these charges to make them any bit palatable. If you are familiar with the EU water framework directive, article 9.4 outlines that Ireland (and only Ireland) is exempt from charging for domestic water. Why was this ignored and what reason (other than extra revenue for the government) was there to push through with domestic charging?

We do pay for water in our taxes already. We also seem to pay for it through completely unrelated taxes e.g motor. I won't even start on the general backhandedness in appointing directors and the general cluster**** the IW set up was overall, not to mention the money spent on metering could have gone a long way to fixing the actual issue with our supply (wastage through unfit pipe networks).

I haven't paid them yet and I won't, there's simply too much dirt on the IW name to accept it. I believe they can be and will be removed by the next government, and anybody foolish enough to have paid so far will be feeling very short changed indeed.

Article 9.4 states:

"4. Member States shall not be in breach of this Directive if they decide in accordance with established practices not to apply the provisions of paragraph 1, second sentence, and for that purpose the relevant provisions of paragraph 2, for a given water-use activity, where this does not compromise the purposes and the achievement of the objectives of this Directive. Member States shall report the reasons for not fully applying paragraph 1, second sentence, in the river basin management plans."


Paragraph 1 second sentence and paragraph 2 state:

"Member States shall ensure by 2010

- that water-pricing policies provide adequate incentives for users to use water resources efficiently, and thereby contribute to the environmental objectives of this Directive,

- an adequate contribution of the different water uses, disaggregated into at least industry, households and agriculture, to the recovery of the costs of water services, based on the economic analysis conducted according to Annex III and taking account of the polluter pays principle.

Member States may in so doing have regard to the social, environmental and economic effects of the recovery as well as the geographic and climatic conditions of the region or regions affected.

2. Member States shall report in the river basin management plans on the planned steps towards implementing paragraph 1 which will contribute to achieving the environmental objectives of this Directive and on the contribution made by the various water uses to the recovery of the costs of water services."


A couple of points to note in this regard:

(1) Article 9.4 only applies "where this does not compromise the purposes and the achievement of the objectives of this Directive". All of the available evidence suggests that the purposes and the achievements of the objectives of the Directive have been compromised in Ireland.

http://ec.europa.eu/environment/water/water-framework/impl_reports.htm#third

The Commission working party report for Ireland in 2012 states as one of the major gaps is "There is currently no recovery of costs of water supply to households, costs are met by government funding." It also states "The level of ambition is low – only 18% more rivers are expected to meet objectives in 2015 than in 2009, and large numbers of exemptions are applied."

By introducing water charges shortly thereafter, we avoided action being taken by the Commission against us.

(2) Article 9.4 also requires Member States to "decide in accordance with established practices". Now that we have implemented water charges, there is no going back without breaching the directive as established practices now include charging domestic customers.

(3) Second sentence of paragraph 1 states "Member States shall ensure by 2010". It could be argued by the Commission that the Article 9.4 exemption only applies up until 2010.

Essentially what I am saying, is that the Article 9.4 exemption in all practical terms is now meaningless for Ireland as we are failing to meet the objectives of the Directive, 2010 has come and gone and the established practice now includes charging domestic customers for usage. Obviously, there is some room for maneouvre on how you charge domestic customers but rolling back into taxation isn't an option. The opposition politicians are well aware of this and they know that they will get a visit from a Commission official if they take office telling them they can't abolish water charges. They will blame the nasty Commission and the stupid policy of the FG/Labour coalition but if anyone is foolish enough to believe that the EU will let the opposition cancel water charges, and vote accordingly, then they get the government they deserve.

Grudaire

eagle eye wrote: »

After the debate last night the biggest thought I had was that the leaders of three of the four major parties are too old. They are not suitable for the leadership role as they are not able to react quickly to a surprise question/comment.

Michael Martin has been having the time of his life in these debates just because he is younger and sharper than the others.

These people are the front line and a lot of voters look at them and if they don't think they are up to it then they won't vote for their party.

This whole idea that every candidate should be fully conversant in every single issue is madness. Leaders debates make sense, but even the Vincent Browne constituency debates can go into extreme levels of detail on very specific topics.

(Party leaders leaders are encouraged to rote learn and repeat a monolog of facts and figures on each topic)

I would love to see a debate with several tables. At each table all party spokespeople on a specific issue can sit. Then the debate can cover several area's in actual detail.

Mr.Micro

We did not have one canvasser in this area, not a one. Talk about voter apathy, now it's candidate apathy. Then again this is Carlow-Kilkenny, the former being the home of apathy. This though, is a new low, a complete non election.

gandalf

TripleC wrote: »

I think your point about allowing the water infrastructure to collapse first before establishing IW is extremely glib.

Where did I say that. What I said is that the Government should have used the 1 billion wasted in setting up this tainted company and installing meters (that will probably never be used for metering) to repair the most pressing leaks before going to the country to ask them to pay for water. Stop saying something that I never stated!

Seth Brundle

gandalf wrote: »

Where did I say that. What I said is that the Government should have used the 1 billion wasted in setting up this tainted company and installing meters (that will probably never be used for metering) to repair the most pressing leaks before going to the country to ask them to pay for water. Stop saying something that I never stated!

1. Was all of the €1 billion that you mentioned wasted or just a portion of it? If the latter, how much?
2. How much would it have costed to fix tje most pressing of the existing problems? Presumably you will include the costs for the planned upgrade works e.g. the pipe from the Shannon to Dublin.
3. Of the money saved from #1, bearing in mind the existing annual cost to maintain the system (€1bn?) how would we fund #2?

Oh and I wouldn't assume that the meters will not be used. I forsee them being used for billing purposes within three years.

gandalf

And how are they going to fund these replacement costs with the revenue being raised by IW at the moment.

http://www.thejournal.ie/ge16-fact-check-election-2016-water-charges-irish-water-2622813-Feb2016/?utm_source=facebook_short

Idbatterim

You see the biggest problem I have with the current Government is the complete and utter car crash they have created with the setup of Irish Water.

admittedly they made a bit of a balls of it. But FF ballsed up the country. Personally I see Irish water as a nigh on total irrelevance in the scheme of things, my motor tax is over four times the average household bill and let me clarify I am not bitching about motor tax, I choose what car I drive and motor tax I pay...

ThunbergsAreGo

TripleC wrote: »

i will go one step further, if many of the utilities we take for granted today such as the ESB were established with todays level of media cynicism and scrutiny then they would garner the same level of hostility.

Have always thought this myself, could imagine the uproar if esb was set to today. Great point

meglome

gandalf wrote: »

You see the biggest problem I have with the current Government is the complete and utter car crash they have created with the setup of Irish Water. I do believe that it was originally conceived with the purpose of being spun off privately. When I voted for FG (I gave them 1st and 2nd preferences in the last GE) it was with the purpose of reform, the purpose of ensuring that we the taxpayer were getting value for money and that Quangos are a thing of the past. Lo and behold they set up a Super Quango and populate its higher Management with people who failed at Higher Management in Public Bodies.

For me the setup of Irish Water was always going to be a mess. You've got a mix of Government ministers who don't want to be blamed for anything so will flap around trying to avoid getting in the firing line, a water system that's in a shambles, unions who will make sure it's overstaffed and poorly organised and a 'can pay. won't pay' brigade who'll protest it in every way all the while screaming about the mess they helped create. I'm not saying I'm happy about it but I do feel it was inevitable.

gandalf

Idbatterim wrote: »

admittedly they made a bit of a balls of it. But FF ballsed up the country. Personally I see Irish water as a nigh on total irrelevance in the scheme of things,

For me it is a matter of principle at this stage and if you have noticed anything I am a bit of a stubborn contrary bastard.

my motor tax is over four times the average household bill and let me clarify I am not bitching about motor tax, I choose what car I drive and motor tax I pay...

TBH the whole put a charge on fuel to replace Motor Tax is one of the few good ideas from Renua. Shame about the whole Opus Dei vibe from them after that thought.

BoJack Horseman

gandalf wrote: »

Shame about the whole Opus Dei vibe from them after that thought.

The SDs will be the break out party of the election, when that thunder could have gone to Renua..... but the whole 'god squad' thing will be their demise aswell as their genesis.

gandalf

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

The SDs will be the break out party of the election, when that thunder could have gone to Renua..... but the whole 'god squad' thing will be their demise aswell as their genesis.

If they actually ran in my constituency it would have made my voting decision a lot easier earlier!

(as a side note that was the longest ballot paper I have ever seen at an election, 21 candidates and most of them are useless nimrods imho!)

Brussels Sprout

I'd add to that list parties (usually the lefties but I've also heard Eddie Hobbs of Renua say it) who talk about us giving our oil away for free. The narrative goes that there's essentially a big pot of black gold just off the coast which can be used to pay for everything if only corrupt politicians hadn't given it to Oil companies for nothing.

The most obvious flaw with this argument is that there isn't a flotilla of oil rigs being constructed off the west coast of Ireland by the likes of Shell & BP to take advantage of our government's largesse nor were there any in the past when the price of oil was going through the roof.

yqtwqxqm

Noonans pension raid was a low blow. I voted for FG last time, but that pension raid was a low underhanded blow. Didnt vote FG today and wouldnt again.

FA Hayek

My own thoughts is that we could be doing this all over again in a few weeks or months. It will kill us slowly

Given the poll numbers we are seeing the only stable government is FF/FG which is a real possibility but a lot people will have to swallow their pride. What will FF do? Will they put their country before the party? Its FF so probably no.
So that leaves a minority government, which will last what, one budget maybe?

In some ways this could work Labour and FG especially. Let them all scramble and make noise about forming governments. Sinn Fein and a heap of other guys. Will last days rather then weeks. FF/Sinn Fein, don't have the numbers so you need a load of Indo's as well.

Perhaps FG are playing the long game and letting see what instability Spanish style of Italian style actually looks like. A few weeks and months of this, people will go back to the polls and given them a stronger mandate. Saying all that the election has been very poor from FG. No vision from them, Enda will be gone regardless in 12 months as someone will have to take the fall. Cue Leo and Simon Coveney fighting it out. Everything is in flux and its all to play for, expect a Marathon rather then a sprint though. We could be just past the 10km mark at this point, shudder the thought of yet more boring debates moderated by Miriam. Kill me now!

grindle

meglome wrote: »

[*]WE DID NOT BAIL OUT GERMAN BANKS. People have said this as fact all along but it simply isn't. Linked is the detailed analysis from Philip Lane of Trinity College (now Central Bank governor) which shows the facts. (It shows our banks borrowed the money from the UK and the US). Enjoy.
[/LIST]

Seems like a strange way of glossing over a tremendous waste of money, focussing on rebuking "Ooh-err, 't'were Germany's fault so it was" instead of the money aspect.

We did unnecessarily hand large swathes of money back to people who chose to gamble.
Whatever the nationality, who cares? They were playing capitalist and should have had to face up to the negatives of the risks they took.