Rent too high, can we move out?

Michael D Not Higgins

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

With a successful assignment, there's no financial loss to the landlord. I don't see what the problem with that is.

Just the unfairness of how a tenant is not really bound by a lease and has an easy get out clause while its basically impossible for a LL to break a lease, even without a lease its very difficult for a LL to move on tenants.

Michael D Not Higgins

Dallas Thoughtless Dealer wrote: »

Just the unfairness of how a tenant is not really bound by a lease and has an easy get out clause while its basically impossible for a LL to break a lease, even without a lease its very difficult for a LL to move on tenants.

The law is written to protect people's homes and the financial interest of the landlord. I don't see the problem with the way it is laid out.

You also mentioned what if the landlord isn't happy with the tenant. Well, if they're breaking the terms of the lease they can be issued a notice of termination and if not, why is the landlord unhappy?

Michael D Not Higgins

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

The law is written to protect people's homes and the financial interest of the landlord. I don't see the problem with the way it is laid out.

You also mentioned what if the landlord isn't happy with the tenant. Well, if they're breaking the terms of the lease they can be issued a notice of termination and if not, why is the landlord unhappy?

Maybe they want to move in themselves or move in someone they know while the lease is active or want to sell the house vacant.

What ever about any other reasons it should definitely be possible to have a break clause for selling or moving in same is in part 4.

Michael D Not Higgins

Dallas Thoughtless Dealer wrote: »

Maybe they want to move in themselves or move in someone they know while the lease is active or want to sell the house vacant.

What ever about any other reasons it should definitely be possible to have a break clause for selling or moving in same is in part 4.

There's nothing preventing a landlord from writing such a clause into a lease.

MarkAnthony

Dallas Thoughtless Dealer wrote: »

Maybe they want to move in themselves or move in someone they know while the lease is active or want to sell the house vacant.

What ever about any other reasons it should definitely be possible to have a break clause for selling or moving in same is in part 4.

Are you serious? I'm genuinely asking. You think it's right that someone should be able to evict someone because they'd prefer someone else in the property?

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

There's nothing preventing a landlord from writing such a clause into a lease.

The RTA would prevent such clauses having effect.

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

You also mentioned what if the landlord isn't happy with the tenant. Well, if they're breaking the terms of the lease they can be issued a notice of termination and if not, why is the landlord unhappy?

LL's not being happy with the tenant and not being able to get shot of them is entirely of the LL's own making. I don't issue fixed term tenancies for exactly that reason. The Part IV tenancy allows both parties 6 months with minimal notice.

Please note I don't disagree with you, I'm simply quoting you as a segway

Michael D Not Higgins

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Are you serious? I'm genuinely asking. You think it's right that someone should be able to evict someone because they'd prefer someone else in the property?



The RTA would prevent such clauses having effect.



LL's not being happy with the tenant and not being able to get shot of them is entirely of the LL's own making. I don't issue fixed term tenancies for exactly that reason. The Part IV tenancy allows both parties 6 months with minimal notice.

Please note I don't disagree with you, I'm simply quoting you as a segway

The RTA allows Part 4 tenancies to be broken for sales or for the landlord or relative moving in. I don't know of any clause that would prevent a break clause in a fixed term lease to allow this to be enacted by means of notice on the Part 4 tenancy.

Similarly, writing a break clause to come into effect before a Part 4 tenancy comes into being could also be done.

MarkAnthony

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

The RTA allows Part 4 tenancies to be broken for sales or for the landlord or relative moving in.

Quite right.

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

I don't know of any clause that would prevent a break clause in a fixed term lease to allow this to be enacted by means of notice on the Part 4 tenancy.

I'm not sure what the thrust of your argument is here. Part IV starts after 6 months notwithstanding the fixed term lease. I believe there are also some formalities to adhere to on the tenant's side.

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Similarly, writing a break clause to come into effect before a Part 4 tenancy comes into being could also be done.

This would be moot. The LL/Tenant can simply give 28 days notice. I'd be very dubious of the validity of a fixed term lease that would allow only the LL to terminate in light of the alternative options. I've no case law, or indeed the will to go and find any on same so I'm happy to simply agree to disagree here.

Michael D Not Higgins

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Quite right.



I'm not sure what the thrust of your argument is here. Part IV starts after 6 months notwithstanding the fixed term lease. I believe there are also some formalities to adhere to on the tenant's side.



This would be moot. The LL/Tenant can simply give 28 days notice. I'd be very dubious of the validity of a fixed term lease that would allow only the LL to terminate in light of the alternative options. I've no case law, or indeed the will to go and find any on same so I'm happy to simply agree to disagree here.

The thrust of my argument is that fixed term leases don't normally have break clauses so there's no mechanism to give Part 4 notice while it's in effect without a break clause.

The problem is there's no real precedent. It's not a standard clause in Irish leases so it doesn't happen. In reality, the landlord wants guaranteed rent so gives a lease that locks someone in for a fixed period.

Having a break clause would have to be written to allow the tenant to invoke it too so it would give the landlord uncertainty on how long the tenant would actually commit to the tenancy.

Marcusm

Dallas Thoughtless Dealer wrote: »

The more you read the more of a joke of how biased towards tenants the rules are in this country.

Basically a tenant is not bound by a lease at all, they can just reassign it. But if a LL wants to break it to get different tenants he can't unless they have wrecked the place or something.

It's more theoretical than actual; how many adverts have you seen for proposed lease reassignments?

There seems to be a confluence of issues here; the landlord, if using an agent, will be down a month's rent for the letting fee. However, he doesn't seem to be covering himself in glory if the OP's comments about the amount of maintenance required and lack of provision of promised furniture. Sounds like they'd be best off getting away from each other before it reaches a head of steam and neither back down.

Fol20

Speedwell wrote: »

It's as true as the fact that any landlord can claim they plan to make extensive renovations on a place so they can raise the rent they are not entitled to raise on the existing tenants.

I thought its different if a tenant signed a fixed term contract vs part 4.. I thought under a contract, the landlord would have to roof them in a hotel etc until the work is completed, likewise, i thought a tenant is bound by the contract and would forfeit the deposit along with any more legal repercussions?

skallywag

OP, I can only assume that something unexpected has happened in the last 2 months since ye moved in which now puts you in a position that no longer makes the rent affordable to you.

In such circumstances the vast majority of landlords that I know would have sympathy, but you will also need to meet them halfway. If you are willing to stay on until the landlord can find new a new tenant, and if you do everything you can to facilitate a smooth handover, then I see no reason why you will lose your deposit, unless of course there has been damage, etc. With the rental market being what it currently is I would imagine that finding a new tenant may not be too problematic.

That said, you also need to have in mind that you signed a one year lease and the onus is on you to honour it.

armabelle

skallywag wrote: »

OP, I can only assume that something unexpected has happened in the last 2 months since ye moved in which now puts you in a position that no longer makes the rent affordable to you.

In such circumstances the vast majority of landlords that I know would have sympathy, but you will also need to meet them halfway. If you are willing to stay on until the landlord can find new a new tenant, and if you do everything you can to facilitate a smooth handover, then I see no reason why you will lose your deposit, unless of course there has been damage, etc. With the rental market being what it currently is I would imagine that finding a new tenant may not be too problematic.

That said, you also need to have in mind that you signed a one year lease and the onus is on you to honour it.

Although it may have sounded like it, it is not because something sudden happened but rather a number of different things since we moved in that are making us feel like the rent is too high for the kind of place we are living in and the mishaps. To be specific:

1. We should have a fully furnished apartment by now but we don't and the LL still has not and will not commit to telling us when we will have the furniture. This has led to arguments and issues that make us regret moving in which is a horrible feeling
2. We are paying much more for electricity and gas than was estimated by the LL since we moved in
3. The apartment has had 5 maintenance issues one of which made living here a bit difficult for a few days
4. There are two new maintenance issues that I haven't even reported yet
5. My wife, on whose income we depend for now, is earning a lot less than she will be by the end of next month (hopefully) because she is being "emergency taxed" and loses 41% of her income. She never knew about this when we moved in or when she began working here.

Also, I guess we could afford to pay the rent but with very little income left over for food etc. It might be tolerable if there werent all the issues and if we had a properly furnished apartment

Fol20

armabelle wrote: »

Although it may have sounded like it, it is not because something sudden happened but rather a number of different things since we moved in that are making us feel like the rent is too high for the kind of place we are living in and the mishaps. To be specific:

1. We should have a fully furnished apartment by now but we don't and the LL still has not and will not commit to telling us when we will have the furniture. This has led to arguments and issues that make us regret moving in which is a horrible feeling
2. We are paying much more for electricity and gas than was estimated by the LL since we moved in
3. The apartment has had 5 maintenance issues one of which made living here a bit difficult for a few days
4. There are two new maintenance issues that I haven't even reported yet
5. My wife, on whose income we depend for now, is earning a lot less than she will be by the end of next month (hopefully) because she is being "emergency taxed" and loses 41% of her income. She never knew about this when we moved in or when she began working here.

Also, I guess we could afford to pay the rent but with very little income left over for food etc. It might be tolerable if there werent all the issues and if we had a properly furnished apartment

1) Usually this means the furniture and everything you saw when you first moved in. Do you not have any couches etc or what?
2)tbh, this is not his fault plus electricity and gas is all dependant on the person. My gas and electricity has gone up since i moved in with my gf as she feels like the house is cold with the usage i have it set to while at the same time, im walking around in a t shirt.
3)Depending on the issues and how big you make them out to be, there is always some issues when people first move in.
4)same as above, although how picky are you?
5)emergency tax is normal if you started a new job. You just need to get your tax affairs in order to get it sorted asap for example i started a new job a few months ago and notified the tax office straight away to avoid the emergency tax.

From what you mentioned, you were ill prepared when you moved in, and this isnt the LL fault.

Speedwell

Fol20 wrote: »

1) Usually this means the furniture and everything you saw when you first moved in. Do you not have any couches etc or what?
2)tbh, this is not his fault plus electricity and gas is all dependant on the person. My gas and electricity has gone up since i moved in with my gf as she feels like the house is cold with the usage i have it set to while at the same time, im walking around in a t shirt.
3)Depending on the issues and how big you make them out to be, there is always some issues when people first move in.
4)same as above, although how picky are you?
5)emergency tax is normal if you started a new job. You just need to get your tax affairs in order to get it sorted asap for example i started a new job a few months ago and notified the tax office straight away to avoid the emergency tax.

From what you mentioned, you were ill prepared when you moved in, and this isnt the LL fault.

That's not really fair.

When my husband (a lifelong Irish resident) brought me over from America and we set up housekeeping together, it took over three months for our household goods to be delivered. Our house came furnished, but we and the letting agent had to fight with the landlord to remove filthy and broken furniture so we could bring in our own beds at least. That wasn't our fault. Our gas and electricity are less than we expected, but that is because we have an ethical letting agent who doesn't try to fudge facts to interest potential tenants. We had a few serious maintenance issues when we moved in and reported them promptly (we can't believe the house was inhabited for years with those problems going on, things like using dryer vent hose for blackwater drainage and a cooker with a dangerous electrical fault); the house is basically in good enough shape that we did not need to have more work done for months (I am sorry the OP's home was so neglected). Neither my husband nor I had ever been subjected to emergency tax before, and I've never lived in Ireland before, so we would not have known either, and we would have been in trouble if I hadn't had emergency savings to fall back on.

It sounds to me like the OP is a responsible tenant in a situation not unlike ours, except that they are working with less reliable and ethical people than we are.

Fol20

Speedwell wrote: »

That's not really fair.

When my husband (a lifelong Irish resident) brought me over from America and we set up housekeeping together, it took over three months for our household goods to be delivered. Our house came furnished, but we and the letting agent had to fight with the landlord to remove filthy and broken furniture so we could bring in our own beds at least. That wasn't our fault. Our gas and electricity are less than we expected, but that is because we have an ethical letting agent who doesn't try to fudge facts to interest potential tenants. We had a few serious maintenance issues when we moved in and reported them promptly (we can't believe the house was inhabited for years with those problems going on, things like using dryer vent hose for blackwater drainage and a cooker with a dangerous electrical fault); the house is basically in good enough shape that we did not need to have more work done for months (I am sorry the OP's home was so neglected). Neither my husband nor I had ever been subjected to emergency tax before, and I've never lived in Ireland before, so we would not have known either, and we would have been in trouble if I hadn't had emergency savings to fall back on.

It sounds to me like the OP is a responsible tenant in a situation not unlike ours, except that they are working with less reliable and ethical people than we are.

Yea if you dont like the furniture or bedding, you talk to the agent before you move in to see what can be done on these. If he agrees to repair or remove them, fair enough, it should be done. On the other hand if you sign contracts and then talk about it. Then he doesn't have to agree to it. I for example refuse to move furniture from my places as its more hassle and money. The tenant can house my furniture at their expense if they want.

Electricity faults and stuff along those lines may not be seen when inspected by potential tenants so safety issues like that should be fixed asap by any decent landlord

Fol20

<MOD SNIP >

All i said is that if you want furniture replaced or moved, talk about it before you move in. Some ll's might not mind moving furniture while other will outright refuse. Never assume anything, always ask what is and isnt acceptable before you move in. At least that way both parties should be up front and have a decent relationship. On the otherhand if you expect a certain status quo without confirming it, thats your own fault.

yqtwqxqm

Reassign the lease and pay the landlord any expenses you have caused him, job done.
PRTB fee of €90 or so comes to mind. He has to pay that for you and then your replacement.
If you dont reassign, give him notice and pay expenses out of your deposit. then he probably will have higher expenses though.

utmbuilder

Butters1979 wrote: »

It's not the deposit you could lose, you could be liable to the rent for the remainder of the lease. The best thing you can do is talk to your landlord about this. If it's a high demand area or you could get a new tenant for him he may well agree to release you from the lease.

lol no one has ever been prosecuted to fulfill a private lease agreement outside commerical law , why are you trying to scare this poor person.

armabelle

Speedwell wrote: »

That's not really fair.

When my husband (a lifelong Irish resident) brought me over from America and we set up housekeeping together, it took over three months for our household goods to be delivered. Our house came furnished, but we and the letting agent had to fight with the landlord to remove filthy and broken furniture so we could bring in our own beds at least. That wasn't our fault. Our gas and electricity are less than we expected, but that is because we have an ethical letting agent who doesn't try to fudge facts to interest potential tenants. We had a few serious maintenance issues when we moved in and reported them promptly (we can't believe the house was inhabited for years with those problems going on, things like using dryer vent hose for blackwater drainage and a cooker with a dangerous electrical fault); the house is basically in good enough shape that we did not need to have more work done for months (I am sorry the OP's home was so neglected). Neither my husband nor I had ever been subjected to emergency tax before, and I've never lived in Ireland before, so we would not have known either, and we would have been in trouble if I hadn't had emergency savings to fall back on.

It sounds to me like the OP is a responsible tenant in a situation not unlike ours, except that they are working with less reliable and ethical people than we are.

Thanks and sorry to hear about all that.... it really is a downer when things like this happen.

In our case - and this is actually really ironic - the apartment was renovated before we moved in !!! The problem is that the work was obviously done very poorly and sometimes when you take a car to the mechanic it comes back with more problems than when you go in if you know what I mean. The LL seems like he was going for the cheapest renovation possible as we think he is having financial difficulty. Not sure why since he is charging 1700 euros a month for 55 square meter apartment.

handlemaster

Its funny the OP said first that he couldnt afford the rent two months into a one year contract. Then turns it onto the fault been the LL s as a plumber has been to the property 5 times etc. .. I have yet to see a tenant post and take full responsibility for their actions. .. always a dig at the LL somewhere ...

armabelle

handlemaster wrote: »

Its funny the OP said first that he couldnt afford the rent two months into a one year contract. Then turns it onto the fault been the LL s as a plumber has been to the property 5 times etc. .. I have yet to see a tenant post and take full responsibility for their actions. .. always a dig at the LL somewhere ...

We are partly responsible because we should have known about Emergency tax and of course the gas and electricity was an estimate so not going to hold anyone to that. If the furniture was here when it was supposed to be an we were living in a properly furnished place, there would be no argument and we would probably never have started arguing with the LL and moving would probably never have even come up. The maintenance is forgivable because the LL is not directly at fault. The issue with the furniture is pure dishonesty because it was promised and not delivered and the fact that he cannot even give us a date is totally disrespecful. A decent LL would know they were in the wrong by now and try to at least make it up by putting some kind of date forward.

garhjw

armabelle wrote: »

We are partly responsible because we should have known about Emergency tax and of course the gas and electricity was an estimate so not going to hold anyone to that. If the furniture was here when it was supposed to be an we were living in a properly furnished place, there would be no argument and we would probably never have started arguing with the LL and moving would probably never have even come up. The maintenance is forgivable because the LL is not directly at fault. The issue with the furniture is pure dishonesty because it was promised and not delivered and the fact that he cannot even give us a date is totally disrespecful. A decent LL would know they were in the wrong by now and try to at least make it up by putting some kind of date forward.

What subject did you give this thread?
It sounds like you are trying to blame the landlord for your poor planing and budgeting

armabelle

garhjw wrote: »

What subject did you give this thread?
It sounds like you are trying to blame the landlord for your poor planing and budgeting

Yes you are right... I am not the best subject writer. So sorry about my subject.

TheChizler

You know you'll get the emergency tax back right?

armabelle

TheChizler wrote: »

You know you'll get the emergency tax back right?

Yes thanks for that. We are just having a hard time with money in the meantime. It will be better when we get the tax back but that is still a month or two away.

JustAThought

All this barrack room talk about rights & legal will be little use to you if you have no way to pay the rent. If this happens you will loose the deposit - and more.

You are also ( I assume) eligible for water charges used, electricity used, gas used - transfer of bills from your name, meter reads , UPC/Phone line charges & changes of name, bin charges fees, management or estate agent fees, sign-off from banks that accounts in your name at that address are closed, same with GNIB registration if applicable etc and that's before you start looking at the costs to clean , check & turnaround the apartment and fees to advertise or get estate agent involved in finding & reference checking new tenants.

I'd also be reading the small print of your contract for a lot of other ( costly) detail - let alone breach of contract if you signed a years lease.

<MOD SNIP>

Emergency tax can be checked by calling revenue - they will tell your wife how much & aprox when she can get it back - mught be a plan to do some realistic calculations then & talk very nicely to your landlord - if they take pity on you you have a hope. Lets hope they are sympathetic.