GAA Congress

Fr Tod Umptious

Stacksofwacks wrote: »

Okay but it would reduce the gap between the stronger counties and weaker ones and make it a more level playing field in the longer term. Obviously it would make little sense to merge say Clare with Louth, but neighbouring counties like Longford and Westmeath playing together would in theory be stronger than each county playing on its own, hence giving their better players a chance to win things more often.. but your probably right, its a daft idea

But why the desire to make it a more level playing field ?

Is 23 out of 32 making quarter final appearances in 16 years no level enough ?

It's cyclical as it is.

Offaly were a powerhouse in the 70s and 80s, now they are nothing.

Tyrone, with the exception of final appearances in 86 and 95, were nothing, but they won three All Ireland's in the space of 5 years.

Things go around and come around.

The back door been a huge boost to weaker teams, level it at that.

mickmackey1

If anything the back door has favoured the big teams, you might catch them cold on a given day but it's unlikely to happen twice.

Stacksofwacks

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But why the desire to make it a more level playing field ?

Is 23 out of 32 making quarter final appearances in 16 years no level enough ?

It's cyclical as it is.

Offaly were a powerhouse in the 70s and 80s, now they are nothing.

Tyrone, with the exception of final appearances in 86 and 95, were nothing, but they won three All Ireland's in the space of 5 years.

Things go around and come around.

The back door been a huge boost to weaker teams, level it at that.

What about the Leitrims and Carlows, where the cycle never comes around, should we just ignore them and keep the top counties happy? Sligo might say they are doing fine on their own thanks but a merger with Leitrim would be of benefit to leitrim. GAA is all about equality and fairness so why should the bigger counties hold all the cards. While Im at it ill suggest too that Dublin should be split into 3-4 intercounty teams then we might just have a level playing field!

Fr Tod Umptious

mickmackey1 wrote: »

If anything the back door has favoured the big teams, you might catch them cold on a given day but it's unlikely to happen twice.

There is a certain amount of merit to that argument but I also think that the benefits to the weaker counties has been far more.

Fermanagh (3 times) , Tipp, Clare, Limerick, Cavan, Wexford, Kildare (4 times ?), would all never have seen Croke Park without the qualifiers.

Plus the notion that a big team can afford to lose in the provinces and then hone their skills in the qualifiers no longer holds water, because if you lose in your province the last thing you want is to have to face another strong team (provincial champ) in the quarter finals. Mayo were lucky to avoid Dublin in 2016.
And it's going to be even more important to win the province from now on, because the last thing you want is to be stuck in a group with two provincial winners.

Bass Reeves

Super eight will have a huge impact in the club scene in counties that qualify. The stronger counties will now want to develop squads of 30+ player's for round robin part. The weaker counties that qualify will struggle to compete in latter stages of round robin with injuries and suspension's. It is unlikely that any manager that qualifies for round robin stage will allow county players back to club after last qualifying game.

This will put fierce pressure on clubs that play both football and hurling. If there county quality for the S8 and they have a county football player the total county hurling and football championship is suspended or they must play club championship without these players.

The minor championship moving to U 17 will have a positive impact on adult competitions but will crucify the U16 grade at club level. Was involved in minor championship at club level over last 2-3 years and trying to get games played was a disaster. Most counties field both grades under age and first part of the year is a wipeout. With lads in final year at minor level usually involved with your main adult team as well matches are suspended all the time.

There is little advantage to 24 teams not involved in S8 as run off your championship's too fast and teams going out to All Ireland club championship's will have a disadvantage of too much of a lay off. It will hurt clubs aswell in that more county players will be burnt out returning to club scene in September. For the All Ireland finalist's they may have played 3-4 very hard competitive matches over previous 6-7 weeks.

Dirty Dingus McGee

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Super eight will have a huge impact in the club scene in counties that qualify. The stronger counties will now want to develop squads of 30+ player's for round robin part. The weaker counties that qualify will struggle to compete in latter stages of round robin with injuries and suspension's. It is unlikely that any manager that qualifies for round robin stage will allow county players back to club after last qualifying game.

This will put fierce pressure on clubs that play both football and hurling. If there county quality for the S8 and they have a county football player the total county hurling and football championship is suspended or they must play club championship without these players.

The minor championship moving to U 17 will have a positive impact on adult competitions but will crucify the U16 grade at club level. Was involved in minor championship at club level over last 2-3 years and trying to get games played was a disaster. Most counties field both grades under age and first part of the year is a wipeout. With lads in final year at minor level usually involved with your main adult team as well matches are suspended all the time.

There is little advantage to 24 teams not involved in S8 as run off your championship's too fast and teams going out to All Ireland club championship's will have a disadvantage of too much of a lay off. It will hurt clubs aswell in that more county players will be burnt out returning to club scene in September. For the All Ireland finalist's they may have played 3-4 very hard competitive matches over previous 6-7 weeks.

The super 8 has added only 2 extra matches to each teams season.Just 2.And with the intercounty years ended earlier there will be more time for the clubs.

It's only 2 extra matches just 2 per team.With the amount of training these teams do there isn't a hope of it causing burn out.You're completely over reacting to a very small change.

OldMrBrennan83

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enoughtaken

Since 2001 list of counties and how many times they have reached Quater Final
Kerry  16
Dublin 15
Tyrone 12
Mayo 11
Cork 11
Donegal 10
Galway 7
Armagh 7
Kildare 6
Monaghan 4
Laois 4
Meath 4
Westmeath 3
Roscommon 3
Fermanagh 3
Derry 3
Down 2
Sligo 2
Tipperary 1
Clare 1
Cavan 1
Limerick 1
Wexford 1

OldMrBrennan83

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nice_guy80

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Kerry have a very easy path to the quarter final

cms88

Stacksofwacks wrote: »

What about the Leitrims and Carlows, where the cycle never comes around, should we just ignore them and keep the top counties happy? Sligo might say they are doing fine on their own thanks but a merger with Leitrim would be of benefit to leitrim. GAA is all about equality and fairness so why should the bigger counties hold all the cards. While Im at it ill suggest too that Dublin should be split into 3-4 intercounty teams then we might just have a level playing field!

What do they actually want? For a handicap to be put on the big teams? All they do is complain about everything.

They say they wont have interest in a ''B'' championship yet are somehow happy to play in 2 championships tht most have no hope of winning either.

Do they want the likes of Kerry, Dublin, Mayo etc to be penalised for putting in a effort?

Its been going on for a long time between them wanting home games for all their qualifier games among others

Bonniedog

"Equality" and fairness have nothing to do with sport. Indeed they have nothing to do with life in general.

Reminds me of those leftie teachers who used to organise games in which there was no winner, so that no-one felt bad!

cms88

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Kerry have a very easy path to the quarter final

yawn

intellectual dosser

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Why only look at the last 5 years?

Why not look at the number of counties who have made a Quarter Final since the inception of them.
The list is, in no particular order

Kerry
Dublin
Meath
Westmeath
Derry
Tyrone
Galway
Roscommon
Cork
Mayo
Sligo
Armagh
Donegal
Laois
Fermanagh
Monaghan
Kildare
Wexford
Down
Limerick
Cavan
Clare
Tipp

The new system will make it no harder to get to the quarter finals.
And now let’s look at the teams who did not make a QF

London (round 4 loser in 2013)
Leitrim (last won Connacht in 1994)
Carlow (Miracle if they even get more than 1 win a year)
Wicklow (good run a few years back under Miko, but more like Carlow than anyone else)
Waterford (as above)
Longford (Have come close)
Offaly (could get lucky)
Antrim (lost a 4th rounder to Kerry)
Louth (“lost” a Leinster title in 2010)

So 23 out of 32 counties have made the QF, and of the remainder only 3 are complete an utter no hopers.

There will always be weaker teams, but a system that has seen over 66% of the teams get to the latter stages in the past 17 years is not that bad.

I think five years is a good sample for the point I'm making.

The teams that qualify for the Super 8 are going to gain invaluable experience, that is going to widen the gulf between them and the teams that dont, I'd expect to see this reflection quite quickly after the format is introduced (hence 5 years).

So you're right, it won't be any harder to qualify for the last eight (the first year), but the cost of not qualifying is going to sky rocket.

I also still dont see how this was a priority compared to some of the topics in the GAA at the moment such as participation, attendances, player welfare, sponsorship etc.

Marv8

Listening to Eugene McGee on radio 1 yesterday evening saying how it was such a bad move bringing the All Ireland final cos of tradition. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for tradition but he was almost trying to make out that people weren't going to watch it because it was in August and then going on about people going on holidays in August. If people want to be around for it that badly I'm sure they'll go on their holidays another week. He's one painful man. Thank God Dick Clerkin was there to talk sense.

dttumpp

What were the GPA at coming out so late? How were they expecting delegates to change at this stage?

Also, bringing in Super 8 and bringing All Ireland Finals back a month together makes zero sense. It surely had to be one or the other.

The actions of delegates this weekend is nothing short of a disgrace but not one bit surprising.

dttumpp

Marv8 wrote: »

Listening to Eugene McGee on radio 1 yesterday evening saying how it was such a bad move bringing the All Ireland final cos of tradition. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for tradition but he was almost trying to make out that people weren't going to watch it because it was in August and then going on about people going on holidays in August. If people want to be around for it that badly I'm sure they'll go on their holidays another week. He's one painful man. Thank God Dick Clerkin was there to talk sense.

Idea of holidays and tradition is a lame excuse..It's more the idea of having way more games now and a month less time to complete them which does nothing for the clubs..Don't even start on Dick Clerkin.

Marv8

dttumpp wrote: »

Idea of holidays and tradition is a lame excuse..It's more the idea of having way more games now and a month less time to complete them which does nothing for the clubs..Don't even start on Dick Clerkin.

That's what Dick Clerkin said.

Bonniedog

What's wrong with tradition?

Human race is founded on it.

Apart from that it is absolutely disastrous marketing decision. People go on about the English ****e and how it is counter attraction. So GAA just surrender a month to them!

dttumpp

Marv8 wrote: »

That's what Dick Clerkin said.

The only good thing he has said. The ****e he has been talking all week is getting annoying at this stage.

bruschi

Bonniedog wrote: »

What's wrong with tradition?

Human race is founded on it.

Apart from that it is absolutely disastrous marketing decision. People go on about the English ****e and how it is counter attraction. So GAA just surrender a month to them!

no interest in club games then, only county? I'm glad to see that we will get higher quality club championships in better weather conditions.

Marv8

Bonniedog wrote: »

What's wrong with tradition?

Human race is founded on it.

Apart from that it is absolutely disastrous marketing decision. People go on about the English ****e and how it is counter attraction. So GAA just surrender a month to them!

There will be plenty of club games on, don't worry.

StupidLikeAFox

Bonniedog wrote: »

What's wrong with tradition?

Human race is founded on it.

Apart from that it is absolutely disastrous marketing decision. People go on about the English ****e and how it is counter attraction. So GAA just surrender a month to them!

They are also starting the championship earlier so they aren't really sacrificing a month. They are also increasing the number of games between the top teams, which makes the competition more marketable. They are also bringing top games around the country, so all the impressionable childer from Ennis might be able to see the Dubs roll into town in July - it would create a serious buzz in the counties involved.

Theres also the fact that most people I know are able to maintain a healthy interest in soccer, rugby and GAA, but GAA is by far the best supported and organised at a local level. This idea that simply moving the GAA season by a few weeks is going to cause people to flock to other sports makes zero sense.

Bonniedog

bruschi wrote: »

no interest in club games then, only county? I'm glad to see that we will get higher quality club championships in better weather conditions.

I played for 40 years so don't be acting the maggot.

Fact is, people want to see Gooch, Callanan, Connolly, Canning. Not you

bruschi

Bonniedog wrote: »

I played for 40 years so don't be acting the maggot.

Fact is, people want to see Gooch, Callanan, Connolly, Canning. Not you

why wont I get to see them? I will still see them as often even if it does take out the month of September. There is no reduction in games, so how does it make any difference to how often you see them? This whole chip on the shoulder act of ceding to the EPL is just ridiculous.

Coillte_Bhoy

Bonniedog wrote: »

What's wrong with tradition?

Human race is founded on it.

Apart from that it is absolutely disastrous marketing decision. People go on about the English ****e and how it is counter attraction. So GAA just surrender a month to them!

English ****e?? I presume you mean soccer? Most people who follow gaa and soccer dont pay much attention to the soccer until the AI's are over anyway. Disastrous marketing my arse, the fact that the top teams will be playing each other in a format thats recognisable throughout the sporting world will be pr man's dream

Bonniedog

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

English ****e?? I presume you mean soccer? Most people who follow gaa and soccer dont pay much attention to the soccer until the AI's are over anyway. Disastrous marketing my arse, the fact that the top teams will be playing each other in a format thats recognisable throughout the sporting world will be pr man's dream

You are contradicting yourself. If AIs finish in August then they are surrendering a month to wendyball.


And if this is same fkn pr men who sold rights to Sky for games watched by 15,000 people, then I wouldn't be buying shares!

Bonniedog

bruschi wrote: »

why wont I get to see them? I will still see them as often even if it does take out the month of September. There is no reduction in games, so how does it make any difference to how often you see them? This whole chip on the shoulder act of ceding to the EPL is just ridiculous.

It is opposite of "chip on shoulder". It is about us pushing our games. Not reducing them to a few months.

GAA is almost invisible from September to June as it is. A lot of it is bad marketing. That has nothing to do with clubs.

You think that Starlights playing Man O'War should take precedence over Dublin county team?

Stacksofwacks

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

No, their population base is too small to compete regularly with the big teams, it is essentially a numbers game. Someone mentioned Wicklow is badly run, true and that is up to them to get their own house in order. Don't hear too many reports about Carlow or Leitrim being badly run, they just dont have the numbers

Stacksofwacks

Bonniedog wrote: »

"Equality" and fairness have nothing to do with sport. Indeed they have nothing to do with life in general.

Reminds me of those leftie teachers who used to organise games in which there was no winner, so that no-one felt bad!

sorry you feel that way about life

harpsman

Stacksofwacks wrote: »

No, their population base is too small to compete regularly with the big teams, it is essentially a numbers game. Someone mentioned Wicklow is badly run, true and that is up to them to get their own house in order. Don't hear too many reports about Carlow or Leitrim being badly run, they just dont have the numbers

Carlows population not really an excuse. Look at the counties with similar populations as them who are pretty competitive most of the time and have had the odd very good team. I cant remember Carlow ever being remotely competitive.

bruschi

Bonniedog wrote: »

It is opposite of "chip on shoulder". It is about us pushing our games. Not reducing them to a few months.

GAA is almost invisible from September to June as it is. A lot of it is bad marketing. That has nothing to do with clubs.

You think that Starlights playing Man O'War should take precedence over Dublin county team?

but its not taking precedence and in no way did I even suggest that. If your arguments are taken up by your disgust that "wendyball" is the reason the GAA are moving the finals to August then there is little point in even discussing things. If you feel this is a "war" like the Portarlington CB rep in Laois does, then you can argue something entirely different that I have no interest in discussing.

If they were reducing the amount of games just to reduce the season by a month, then I'd say its stupid. But all they are doing is making it a better set up so there is not huge disparities between games and therefore gives club players, of which there are vastly more than intercounty players, a chance to play in weather conditions that are more appealing.

And I havent even mentioned that in the football, there is proposed to be more games of a higher quality scheduled than there currently is.

Stacksofwacks

harpsman wrote: »

Carlows population not really an excuse. Look at the counties with similar populations as them who are pretty competitive most of the time and have had the odd very good team. I cant remember Carlow ever being remotely competitive.

remember a lot of hurling is played in Carlow too. They are one of the smallest populations so Im not sure who you are comparing them to

Bonniedog

Stacksofwacks wrote: »

sorry you feel that way about life

Eh. I'm not the one whinging


I don't blame anyone else on my fk ups and failures.

Fr Tod Umptious

harpsman wrote: »

Carlows population not really an excuse. Look at the counties with similar populations as them who are pretty competitive most of the time and have had the odd very good team. I cant remember Carlow ever being remotely competitive.

I've been to Carlow.

And one thing that struck me was the amount of GAA coverage in the local paper.

It was the equal of if not more than what you might see in The Kerryman, or The Mayo News.

Carlow likes it's GAA, but they are not competitive at inter county and it does not seem to bother or hinder them too much.

Bonniedog

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I've been to Carlow.

.

You must have an ar$e like a clown's pocket after been in that place :eek:

TrueGael

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Kerry have a very easy path to the quarter final

Clare made the last 8 , Tipp made the last 4 and gave Mayo a right rattle

When is the last time a Leinster team has come close to that?

nice_guy80

TrueGael wrote: »

Clare made the last 8 , Tipp made the last 4 and gave Mayo a right rattle

When is the last time a Leinster team has come close to that?

Didn't Dublin win the AI last year?

one cuckoo doesn't make a summer with Tipp and Clare
Kerry for the last 20 years have had almost a free pass to the last 8.

cms88

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Didn't Dublin win the AI last year?

one cuckoo doesn't make a summer with Tipp and Clare
Kerry for the last 20 years have had almost a free pass to the last 8.

How have they had a ''free pass'' for the last 20 years when the quarter finals only came in in 2001?

Marv8

Bonniedog wrote: »

It is opposite of "chip on shoulder". It is about us pushing our games. Not reducing them to a few months.

GAA is almost invisible from September to June as it is. A lot of it is bad marketing. That has nothing to do with clubs.

You think that Starlights playing Man O'War should take precedence over Dublin county team?

So you want to market our games at the expense of the people that are already playing? In my experience, people that dont follow GAA, are not into it and never will be. If its kids your talking about, theres plenty of club players that kids look up to, look at the club semi finalists this year, i bet theres kids in Slaughtneil and possibly all over Derry who are pucking around wanting to be Chrissy McKaigue.

So do you think that the 1% should take precedence over the 99%?

Dots1982

Marv8 wrote: »

i bet theres kids in Slaughtneil and possibly all over Derry who are pucking around wanting to be Chrissy McKaigue.

Have you not slightly defeated your own point by citing one of Derry's best players as a club player young lads look up to? You'd surely need a player who only plays for Slaughtneil but isn't picked for county.

Marv8

Dots1982 wrote: »

Have you not slightly defeated your own point by citing one of Derry's best players as a club player young lads look up to? You'd surely need a player who only plays for Slaughtneil but isn't picked for county.

Does he play hurling for Derry? I thought he only played football.

Dots1982

Marv8 wrote: »

Does he play hurling for Derry? I thought he only played football.

Ah you meant hurling only, fair enough.

Bonniedog

Marv8 wrote: »

So you want to market our games at the expense of the people that are already playing? In my experience, people that dont follow GAA, are not into it and never will be. If its kids your talking about, theres plenty of club players that kids look up to, look at the club semi finalists this year, i bet theres kids in Slaughtneil and possibly all over Derry who are pucking around wanting to be Chrissy McKaigue.

So do you think that the 1% should take precedence over the 99%?

How do the All Irelands interfere with kids playing? Seriously...

There appears to be a sort of reverse snobbery going on at moment with CPA and others. Fact is there is an elite in everything. People want to see the elite in sport. GAA is reducing that time frame.

MayoAreMagic

cms88 wrote: »

What do they actually want? For a handicap to be put on the big teams? All they do is complain about everything.

They say they wont have interest in a ''B'' championship yet are somehow happy to play in 2 championships tht most have no hope of winning either.

Do they want the likes of Kerry, Dublin, Mayo etc to be penalised for putting in a effort?

Its been going on for a long time between them wanting home games for all their qualifier games among others

In fairness, some don't have the critical mass of bodies available to put in the effort those counties do, so it isn't fair to say like it or lump it. Particularly when certain counties were going down the pan and the government stepped in to fund their resurgence. Why didn't they have to like it or lump it?

Similarly, Dublin have such numbers that the natural progression of their peak and trough would be such that the lowest ebb of their trough is still comparatively too high for their competitors, which isn't good either. It is healthy for the competition that teams die away and come back every now and again.

Those are two serious issues for the gaa going forward.

I actually don't agree that Dublin is the model to follow. They have 10 times the population of Kerry, mayo and tyrone, yet are only a few points better than them. That would indicate a serious amount of waste in the Dublin model, and that it is in fact the model of Kerry, tyrone and Mayo that we should be trying to roll out. Furthermore, making Dublin 2.0, 3.0 etc by joining up other small counties is completely impractical geographically, as you would have 5 odd counties spanning a huge area, rolled in together - how would they train for a start?

So my solution would be for counties like Leitrim to be offered the chance to join up with other counties in a similar position, to reach that optimum population range of around 100-180k - which would be far more manageable and also give them as good a chance as the teams I have mentioned. Then split Dublin in 2 at the start, with the possibility of maybe going into 3 teams in the future.

MayoAreMagic

Bonniedog wrote: »

"Equality" and fairness have nothing to do with sport. Indeed they have nothing to do with life in general.

Reminds me of those leftie teachers who used to organise games in which there was no winner, so that no-one felt bad!

Sorry but this is completely inaccurate. If this was the case then why do drug cheats get banned from the sport and why do people who break the rules get punished? In fact, why is there rules at all, if this is the case?

As for sport having a winner - that is nothing to do with a lack of fairness. If the competition is fair and one team wins, nobody can complain about equality or fairness.

What you don't seem to be getting is that competitive sports with healthy competition is the way forward. In a knockout competition of 33 odd teams, being able to name 3 of the 4 semi finalists every year is anything but a healthy competition... That is what we have, and it needs to change for the good of the gaa. I suppose what really needs to change for that to happen is that people take interest in the gaa as a whole, as opposed to Dublin gaa alone, or Mayo gaa alone etc. There is a bigger game at play than who is going to win sam this year...

Bonniedog

So by that logic Usain Bolt should start a second after everyone else? Tom Brady should be blindfolded? Messis be made wear boots filled with cement?

Dyr

Bonniedog wrote: »

So by that logic Usain Bolt should start a second after everyone else? Tom Brady should be blindfolded? Messis be made wear boots filled with cement?

I think the players should vote on what team wins an all ireland based on who they think "deserves" a go of Sam and Frank each year.

edit: How did no one notice that I said Frank instead of Liam?

Somehow the Frank Cahill cup poppped into my head

MayoAreMagic

Bonniedog wrote: »

So by that logic Usain Bolt should start a second after everyone else? Tom Brady should be blindfolded? Messis be made wear boots filled with cement?

That isnt the logic being used. No individual is being limited, in fact top players from poorer equipped counties are getting a decent chance.

It is more pointing out that there is no point in having an all american team that tom brady would be playing on, because they would have nobody to play against. Or similarly, having messi's Argentina play in the copa libertoras... Orpaying any attention to the spl in its current guise - it's pointless. Sure celtic fans are happy, but anyone outside them can see the league is terrible

Django99

A team doesn't need to win the All Ireland to be successful. Dublin, Mayo, and Kerry need to win the All Ireland to be successful sure.

But what Tipperary and Clare have achieved in the last two years is success. Tipp beating Galway, that was their All Ireland. That was the big game of the year, it was a big step for them but it was achievable. If there was a way to measure happiness, the Tipp squad would have felt the same joy that day that Dublin felt when the won Sam.

Likewise, Clare had two big days, beating Roscommon in the qualifiers and winning the D3 final against Kildare. Two huge milestones that they would barely have dreamed of 5 years ago.

The idea that every team has to have a chance of winning the All Ireland is laughable. 6 teams enter the 6 nations every year, realistically 4 are aiming to win. That doesn't mean Scotland and Italy can't have successful years. Scotland are in the middle of a successful year it they won't win the competition.

8 people start the 100m Olympic gold medal race, 2 or 3 would feel they could beat Bolt but the others are running for a medal, not the Gold though.

The weaker counties need to set themselves targets in the short term. For some that may be promotion from D4. Has anyone read the book by Damian Lawlor about the Waterford footballers? The main aim for the season is to get out of D4. If they achieve that, I can guarantee the football community in Waterford would feel like they'd won the All Ireland. It would be a huge step. Ten they could target to win a game in Munster. Then maybe to win 2 in a row qualifiers.

If they got to the stage where they could do that, they would probably be on a similar level to Armagh or Laois at the moment. Very achievable, and can be done in 2 or 3 years.

The format is already there to allow weaker teams to progress, to have targets which don't invoke winning the All Ireland.