Upcoming DC Extended Universe (DCEU) Movies

ThePott

pixelburp wrote: »

It would take a tonne of cash to get that Cut up to release standard

Agree completely, people have pointed to deleted scenes but lots more of the things we've seen from the Snyder cut point to unfinished FX which would be a massive cost and to what end. As I said and you've said yourself, what benefit would there be for WB or for the DC properties in general in putting this out.

At best, it's a not very good movie that they've sunk funds into to finish for a select group of fans.

At worst, they had a good movie that they killed in favour of a boring one which will have very little effect on the DC universe as a whole except show how inept they are.

Penn

Given a lot of the info Snyder has been releasing on whatever site he uses, I think a Snyder-cut could be an absolute shambles even if they did get the budget to do the CGI. Justice League was barely passable and had a lot of issues. I think a Snyder Cut of it would be the same but just with different issues.

pixelburp

The fundamental problem was always with the format, and this was known the moment the film was announced: parking reservations about the character interpretations, from a structural point of view it was always going to be an uphill battle to have the "team up" film where 2 out of the 5 were brand new, and missing their solo adventure (Wonder Woman just about squeezing in a few months prior with her own feature).

This is one scenario where the MCU comparison was fair: while yes, Black Widow and Hawkeye were missing solo outings, the former had been prominent enough in at least one film (Iron Man 2) to make her inclusion require less heavylifting in the script. Meanwhile the core group of actual superheroes had an Origin Story film; thus the Avengers could just get on with the story.

Id' say even the Synder Cut would struggle to knit those threads together into anything resembling a cohesive, watchable whole (going by some of the dropped content, it looked like we'd have seen more of Cyborg's origin), though I'd be lying if I said I wasn't curious. Maybe if there's a 4 hour runtime on that version, but even then you enter a totally different issue, which reminds: wasn't the very original plan for this Justice League that it be a 2 parter?

Drumpot

pixelburp wrote: »

Well first, I wasn't having a pop at you, I think you've been on record enough that you like MoS / BvS, and that discussion is well worn. And second, I was actually asking the question WHO was making the most noise over this fabled cut; which you answered, in between the defensive snark So thanks for the answer at least.

I suppose I didn't see the need to say "fanboys" as its quite often used as a derogatory term to insult people. Perhaps that wasn't your intention but I seldom see it used in an affectionate manner on boards. There was a post just above yours with tweets from all the major star asking for the movie to be made, perhaps you just missed it.

FunLover18 wrote: »

They tweeted a hashtag yesterday, hardly leading the charge on a campaign that's been going on since JL released, I was under the impression they'd been pretty quiet about it up until this point. Open to correction.

For all the actors to get involved is quite odd, maybe they are just jumping on the bandwagon or maybe they did think there was much better version to be made. I didn’t mean to imply they were leading the charge, but they will give this sort of campaign a lot more credibility and coverage then fans doing a few marketing stunts.

Think Mamoa has been quite vocal for awhile if I remember correctly.

ThePott wrote: »

That took about 25 years to do. I believe the Donner cut was also mostly possible as plenty of completed footage that was thought to be lost was found. It was also a different time for home media where making money off a release like this was more possible. And I know this could end up on HBO Max like most people expect but they really wouldn't need it to entice people with the amount of content they have on it already.

I also feel like the fact WW and Aquaman have done well by more or less ignoring the wider universe mean that it wouldn't be enough of an incentive.

Awful and forgettable yes. Not sure about this part though. I don't want to get into a debate about BvS or MoS though. Sick of talking about them at this stage.

The Snyder Cut is definitely a curiosity and would be interested to see it but I can't imagine it will be this vastly superior movie, I also don't really see what benefit WB would get in releasing it tbh.

Not singling you out btw, didn't even realise I was quoting the same person until now.

You are correct, there is no point in getting into a Snyder debate, but what WW and aquaman showed was that audiences want more marvel. Those movies could be slotted into the marvel universe quite nicely. That doesn't make Snyders movies better, but they were certainly different. I wouldn't equate the success of WW and Aquaman as a signal that audiences want different DC movies, just that they didn't want Snyders versions.

The Snyder BvS extended cut is brilliant for anybody who enjoyed the TR, I don't believe many change their tune. There seems to be some sort of real hate for how Snyder makes movies (I don't get it to be honest).He seems to be like Marmite, you either love or hate his movies ! :pac:

Drumpot

pixelburp wrote: »

The fundamental problem was always with the format, and this was known the moment the film was announced: parking reservations about the character interpretations, from a structural point of view it was always going to be an uphill battle to have the "team up" film where 2 out of the 5 were brand new, and missing their solo adventure (Wonder Woman just about squeezing in a few months prior with her own feature).

This is one scenario where the MCU comparison was fair: while yes, Black Widow and Hawkeye were missing solo outings, the former had been prominent enough in at least one film (Iron Man 2) to make her inclusion require less heavylifting in the script. Meanwhile the core group of actual superheroes had an Origin Story film; thus the Avengers could just get on with the story.

Id' say even the Synder Cut would struggle to knit those threads together into anything resembling a cohesive, watchable whole (going by some of the dropped content, it looked like we'd have seen more of Cyborg's origin), though I'd be lying if I said I wasn't curious. Maybe if there's a 4 hour runtime on that version, but even then you enter a totally different issue, which reminds: wasn't the very original plan for this Justice League that it be a 2 parter?

I definitely agree that DC tried to shoehorn too many characters too quickly into the franchise. In truth, I don't believe we will ever see a Snyder cut so I don't understand why actors and director himself are trolling WB. Surely the kind of work needed would be expensive (if we factor in the kind of movies he makes).

Lithium93_

The Snyder cut of Justice League if it does indeed exist in whatever state pre-Whedon, the longer it's held back, will eventually become the mythical beast that Guns N' Roses Chinese Democracy became during it's making, the whole does it exist, or is it all inside Axl's head.

Fair enough they are different mediums, but the clamoring for the Snyder cut kind of brings me back to the days (damn i'm oldish) when Chinese Democracy was still a "Will we, or won't we ever see it", and surely enough it did arrive, but failed to live up to the mythical status it has attained during it's 13 year gestation cycle. Though it did alright upon it's release.


It's a case of careful what you wish for.

Drumpot

Lithium93_ wrote: »

The Snyder cut of Justice League if it does indeed exist in whatever state pre-Whedon, the longer it's held back, will eventually become the mythical beast that Guns N' Roses Chinese Democracy became during it's making, the whole does it exist, or is it all inside Axl's head.

Fair enough they are different mediums, but the clamoring for the Snyder cut kind of brings me back to the days (damn i'm oldish) when Chinese Democracy was still a "Will we, or won't we ever see it", and surely enough it did arrive, but failed to live up to the mythical status it has attained during it's 13 year gestation cycle. Though it did alright upon it's release.


It's a case of careful what you wish for.

Schrodingers Snyder cut

ThePott

Drumpot wrote: »

You are correct, there is no point in getting into a Snyder debate, but what WW and aquaman showed was that audiences want more marvel. Those movies could be slotted into the marvel universe quite nicely. That doesn't make Snyders movies better, but they were certainly different. I wouldn't equate the success of WW and Aquaman as a signal that audiences want different DC movies, just that they didn't want Snyders versions. The Snyder BvS extended cut is brilliant for anybody who enjoyed the TR, I don't believe many change their tune. There seems to be some sort of real hate for how Snyder makes movies (I:pac: don't get it to be honest).He seems to be like Marmite, you either love or hate his movies !

Possibly, I don't know if you could equate their success simply to the Marvel formula but certainly the lighter tone helped. I don't think darkness makes or breaks a comic book film though. I think people have fundamental issues with how Snyder handled these characters. While I think the extended cut is a marginal improvement I wonder if the reception would have been much better had that been released in theatres. If the Snyder Cut is released it could easily be just a marginal improvement too. As another poster said, I think the Snyder Cut is becoming a catch-all term for a perfect Justice League film that really doesn't exist definitively in any form.

As for Snyder as a director, I think he's made good films that I've enjoyed but he often puts style over substance and has issues with pacing and he has a tendency to overstuff his movies, in my opinion. I think for some people myself included the way he's teased and been cryptic about all the Snyder Cut stuff has soured him somewhat and the ardent fanbase come off as annoying at best and psychotic at worst. Not his fault but he does love to rile them up.

The White Wolf

Lithium93_ wrote: »

The Snyder cut of Justice League if it does indeed exist in whatever state pre-Whedon, the longer it's held back, will eventually become the mythical beast that Guns N' Roses Chinese Democracy became during it's making, the whole does it exist, or is it all inside Axl's head.

Fair enough they are different mediums, but the clamoring for the Snyder cut kind of brings me back to the days (damn i'm oldish) when Chinese Democracy was still a "Will we, or won't we ever see it", and surely enough it did arrive, but failed to live up to the mythical status it has attained during it's 13 year gestation cycle. Though it did alright upon it's release.


It's a case of careful what you wish for.

I wouldn't be under any illusions in regards to his cut as I've read the leaks, and it's very much Snyder up to his usual excess, but it's still miles better than what we got for cohesivity alone.

I don't really see it as a careful what you wish for type deal because whether WB do it through blu ray or streaming platform, it's very much a low risk but with potential high return venture. For the fans, worst come to worst it's as bad as Whedon's effort but at least the Whedon/Snyder debate can be fully informed if it does happen.

The problem as how I see it for the Snyder Cut is that it ends on a cliffhanger, and that cannot be good.

Lithium93_

The White Wolf wrote: »

I wouldn't be under any illusions in regards to his cut as I've read the leaks, and it's very much Snyder up to his usual excess, but it's still miles better than what we got for cohesivity alone.

I don't really see it as a careful what you wish for type deal because whether WB do it through blu ray or streaming platform, it's very much a low risk but with potential high return venture. For the fans, worst come to worst it's as bad as Whedon's effort but at least the Whedon/Snyder debate can be fully informed if it does happen.

The problem as how I see it for the Snyder Cut is that it ends on a cliffhanger, and that cannot be good.

Maybe "it's a case of careful what you wish for" was the wrong way to phrase it.

I wouldn't mind Snyder originally ending it on cliff hanger, as Justice League was originally supposed to be a 2 part film instead of the stitched up theatrical mess we got.

kerplun k

I think this goes way beyond just the hardcore DC fans, granted, they may be the ones spearheading this but I also think there’s a genuine interest in this.

If Snyder filmed all the footage he wanted, and his vision just needs post production work, I’d be very curious to see it. Even if it’s not much better than Whedons version, it would still be fascinating to get a look at Snyders version.

I’ve always said the making of JL would make a great documentary someday, but to get a whole new film based on the original concept is a fascinating prospect.

I’d totally go see this, and not just a comic book fan, but as a fan of film. The thoughts of seeing two completed versions of the same film by two vastly different directors has me hugely excited, and imagine if it was actually good. I think my head would explode

WB took a bath on JL. Releasing the Snyder cut could be a nice way of recouping some of that lost ching ching.

WB are on a bit of a hot streak at the moment and may be feeling confident. I’d love if they were ballsy enough to go through with it.

ThePott

I don't understand where people think all the revenue would come from releasing the Snyder Cut. Putting aside the costs of finishing it where will they make money from it.

They'll hardly give it a theatrical release. If they put it on HBO Max, I don't think it will be anymore of a motivation that the content they're already putting on it including plenty of DC properties. Even forgetting the financials there is little benefit of releasing this when they're already seeing greater success in ignoring the larger universe and focusing on standalone storytelling.

I think people are exaggerating the awareness of a Snyder Cut to the general population too. Sure with a marketing push if it was released it might make people more aware but the average joe doesn't know of half the issues that went with JL, who Zack Snyder is or anything else about what's going on with the DCEU.

I'm not saying there won't be some form of a release at some point but I don't know what it will involve and don't think will be left satisfied regardless, especially as I think it likely does end on a cliffhanger too.

pixelburp

kerplun k wrote: »

WB are on a bit of a hot streak at the moment and may be feeling confident. I’d love if they were ballsy enough to go through with it.

Ultimately I think that's the point that'll mean we WON'T see it: the Reeves Batman is finally taking off, its cast receiving a lot of goodwill, while Joker's success shows an alternate path available for success. With Aquaman, WW sequels and that James Gunn Suicide Squad, it's hard to know how DC will approach Supes & Bats, but it feels like that Justice League is being quietly ignored & put to pasture.

Maybe if that Flash movie ever happens they'll do a cinematic adaptation of Flashpoint and merge the Reeves Batman with the rest of the DCverse

kerplun k

pixelburp wrote: »

Ultimately I think that's the point that'll mean we WON'T see it: the Reeves Batman is finally taking off, its cast receiving a lot of goodwill, while Joker's success shows an alternate path available for success. With Aquaman, WW sequels and that James Gunn Suicide Squad, it's hard to know how DC will approach Supes & Bats, but it feels like that Justice League is being quietly ignored & put to pasture.

Maybe if that Flash movie ever happens they'll do a cinematic adaptation of Flashpoint and merge the Reeves Batman with the rest of the DCverse

I think it depends on how they plan on releasing it. If theatrically, the above could be true, but if it’s used as subscription bait to launch a new a streaming service, this could be well worth a punt.

Foxtrol

kerplun k wrote: »

I think it depends on how they plan on releasing it. If theatrically, the above could be true, but if it’s used as subscription bait to launch a new a streaming service, this could be well worth a punt.

A single movie is terrible bait to launch a streaming service, even worse one that has limited broader appeal.

The White Wolf

kerplun k wrote: »

I think it depends on how they plan on releasing it. If theatrically, the above could be true, but if it’s used as subscription bait to launch a new a streaming service, this could be well worth a punt.

Personally I'm just hoping for a home release, because releasing it on a streaming platform like HBO Max means bad news for us Europeans. =]

At the very least if they do go with HBO Max I would hope that they'd negotiate international deals with the likes of Netflix. It's in their interest to minimise piracy.

kerplun k

Foxtrol wrote: »

A single movie is terrible bait to launch a streaming service, even worse one that has limited broader appeal.

Ahh, no, not on its own, of course not. I mean as one of the big selling points. I’m sure they’d have other stuff as well. Like Apple TV+ had a number of big hitters around launch. The Snyder cut could be used as just one of many other big attractions.

pixelburp

kerplun k wrote: »

I think it depends on how they plan on releasing it. If theatrically, the above could be true, but if it’s used as subscription bait to launch a new a streaming service, this could be well worth a punt.

I also think ThePott's point is an equal killing blow: to properly release the Synder Cut would probably require tens of millions of dollars to bring its WIP FX up to release standard. We're dealing with a film whose original budget was probably about ... maybe $250 million & featured complex FX work on many -if not most - of its key scenes.

Solo died a death in the cinema because those 80% reshoots ballooned the budget past anything box-office success could claw back (the rumour is that the final budget was along the $350 million mark). Blockbusters just don't exist in any kind of sane economic space these days.

The White Wolf

Momoa implied that's not the case in a recent interview and that the cut is more complete than people realise.

I don't think the expense of producing it outweighs the problems created by the multiple story threads it lays down that can't be followed up. From Green Lanterns to Darkseid. The ending sounds so bonkers it'd give ROTK a run for its money in the fake ending stakes.

If people thought the fan base was rabid wait until you see them after they see the SC and it dawns on them that's all folks.

ThePott

Well this is another issue, that's only making people more rampant. The misinformation around it.
Some people say it's basically done, others have said it requires a lot of work, some have said it exists, others have said it doesn't and that the Snyder Cut as we refer to it as was never possible without a 2 part Justice League.

This all stands to what I've said, what does WB gain in releasing this. If it's good they bottled a massive tentpole release for no good reason and damaged one of their most valuable IPs and might make a tiny percentage of what they would have on a theatrical release. If it's bad they wasted cash and the fanbase still won't be happy. Regardless it's a film that won't have a follow-up, the moment has passed. At best maybe Flashpoint could have some play but that movie doesn't look to be ever coming out. As a tool to promote HBO Max is not that big a seller and certainly not likely to be a big impact on people's decision to get it. Look at any streaming service and it's about the massive library of content.

HBO Max has Friends, Big Bang Theory, South Park, Rick and Morty (and the rest of Adult Swim), Impractical Jokers, The West Wing, HBO's library, The CW's library, Cartoon Network etc. That's what they're selling this on, (watch the trailers), a massive back catalogue of content. Eventually some new series of course but a movie isn't going to be a gamechanger, let alone a different cut of movie that flopped. Not to mention HBO Max isn't coming to massive international markets meaning it's even less feasible again.

Drumpot

I think the new batman movie/cast is also another nail in the SC coffin.

That said, let’s say the movie needed like maybe 50 mil of work (as most already filmed) and they put maybe 50 mil towards marketing is there not a decent shot they could get maybe 200 mil if it’s half decent? If it’s really good they could easily recoup some of the loss from the TR. it would have to be a vastly different movie though.

I get the impression even people who don’t like Snyder night even to to see it if nothing else out of curiosity.

pixelburp

Depends on how expensive CGI work is these days; as the maxim goes, you can have it Fast, Cheap, or Good - and you can only pick two. I suspect that 50 million estimate is way off the mark, and would be more in the realm of hundreds of millions to pull any footage up to theatrical quality. Especially given the original FX were roundly slated.

Drumpot

pixelburp wrote: »

Depends on how expensive CGI work is these days; as the maxim goes, you can have it Fast, Cheap, or Good - and you can only pick two. I suspect that 50 million estimate is way off the mark, and would be more in the realm of hundreds of millions to pull any footage up to theatrical quality. Especially given the original FX were roundly slated.

Estimated budget for JL was 300 mil, how? Just how? I can’t get my head around that when you see the finished movie. Maybe they had already done some of the Snyder special effects?

ThePott

For the 300 Million, Effects work was costly especially as much of it was apparently rushed for reshoots the fact it needed major reshoots made it even higher and then marketing. Honestly be surprised if it wasn't more.

All this success supposes they give it a theatrical release again which I can't ever see them doing on a large scale.
Why release a film that flopped again even if it is a different cut. Again, I can't help but feel people are overestimating the awareness of the general public for the Snyder Cut. Not to mention you'd have to make people aware that this is an alternate cut for a film that doesn't have a resolution and likely never will, it's a tough sell and a lot of work and money for little payoff except to appease fans who let's face it will likely never be happy and will see the next DC film regardless.

pixelburp

Drumpot wrote: »

Estimated budget for JL was 300 mil, how? Just how? I can’t get my head around that when you see the finished movie. Maybe they had already done some of the Snyder special effects?

The combination of reshoots & naturally intensive FX work required for something like this, would be my guess. Unlike, say, the CW where it keeps heroes on the ground as much as possible, this series was happy to throw the powers around at the drop of a hat. You look at the MCU for equivalent, and these days even the basic skintight suit has CGI work done on it, to smooth out wrinkles (both on the suit and actors' faces!), or accentuate technology (look at Cyborg being mostly CGI, and Flash's overdesigned speedsuit)

Oh and don't forget the moustache. We cannot discount THAT.

As ThePott says, it's debatable in what actual shape the Synder Cut exists, but given post-production happens ... well, post production, we may take a guess there's not that much in existence with any FX work, let alone draft material (discounting any scenes that made it to the theatrical release. And even then...).

Given the recent ramping up of activity with The Batman, I daresay WB are putting their eggs into Matt Reeves' basket, prepared to either pull a Flashpoint, or simply pretend Batfleck never existed.

ThePott

pixelburp wrote: »

The combination of reshoots & naturally intensive FX work required for something like this, would be my guess.

Oh for sure, especially because I've been told that a lot of the expense with VFX is the man hours and they obviously needed a lot of people to get the film ready quick after all the reshoots and yeah that moustache :rolleyes:.

By the way from looking it up there it seems 300 million was only the production budget and didn't include marketing, Yikes!
Collider put out an article that sort of mentions the same points I'm making https://collider.com/snyder-cut-justice-league-release-plans-wb/

FunLover18

Drumpot wrote: »

I think the new batman movie/cast is also another nail in the SC coffin.

That said, let’s say the movie needed like maybe 50 mil of work (as most already filmed) and they put maybe 50 mil towards marketing is there not a decent shot they could get maybe 200 mil if it’s half decent? If it’s really good they could easily recoup some of the loss from the TR. it would have to be a vastly different movie though.

I get the impression even people who don’t like Snyder night even to to see it if nothing else out of curiosity.

I honestly don't think it would make any money. Between the two petitions I have found for the SC, there's less than 200,000 signatures. JL bombed and AFAIK had the highest drop off from week 1 of release to week 2 for any superhero movie. Aquaman was a success but it's ties to JL were minimal, it may as well have been standalone.

EDIT: I'd be curious to see a Snyder Cut but even with my unlimited card I wouldn't be bothered going to the cinema for it.

Drumpot

pixelburp wrote: »

The combination of reshoots & naturally intensive FX work required for something like this, would be my guess. Unlike, say, the CW where it keeps heroes on the ground as much as possible, this series was happy to throw the powers around at the drop of a hat. You look at the MCU for equivalent, and these days even the basic skintight suit has CGI work done on it, to smooth out wrinkles (both on the suit and actors' faces!), or accentuate technology (look at Cyborg being mostly CGI, and Flash's overdesigned speedsuit)

Oh and don't forget the moustache. We cannot discount THAT.

As ThePott says, it's debatable in what actual shape the Synder Cut exists, but given post-production happens ... well, post production, we may take a guess there's not that much in existence with any FX work, let alone draft material (discounting any scenes that made it to the theatrical release. And even then...).

Given the recent ramping up of activity with The Batman, I daresay WB are putting their eggs into Matt Reeves' basket, prepared to either pull a Flashpoint, or simply pretend Batfleck never existed.

If I was a WB exec only worried about money , then unless most work has been done and it would just be mostly marketing costs I wouldn’t bother. I agree that they prob have more to lose on multiple angles as mentioned by others. I suppose since I don’t care about WB and would love to see what Snyder would of done, Money is no object in these hypothetical desires

Foxtrol

kerplun k wrote: »

Ahh, no, not on its own, of course not. I mean as one of the big selling points. I’m sure they’d have other stuff as well. Like Apple TV+ had a number of big hitters around launch. The Snyder cut could be used as just one of many other big attractions.

But where's the value on their own streaming platform if they need to cover the costs for CGI etc?

The likes of Apple and Disney+ have their center points be series, as they get people hooked beyond the initial 1 week free trial period and even longer into the 2nd month of payment.

Even if this cut did have enough pull to get people to join that wouldn't otherwise do so, which I doubt, then what would stop them all from dropping the service straight afterwards? At least with a theatrical or home release you get some direct money for it from those die-hard fans.

The White Wolf

ThePott wrote: »

For the 300 Million, Effects work was costly especially as much of it was apparently rushed for reshoots the fact it needed major reshoots made it even higher and then marketing. Honestly be surprised if it wasn't more.

All this success supposes they give it a theatrical release again which I can't ever see them doing on a large scale.
Why release a film that flopped again even if it is a different cut. Again, I can't help but feel people are overestimating the awareness of the general public for the Snyder Cut. Not to mention you'd have to make people aware that this is an alternate cut for a film that doesn't have a resolution and likely never will, it's a tough sell and a lot of work and money for little payoff except to appease fans who let's face it will likely never be happy and will see the next DC film regardless.

No where is it suggested that it will get another theatrical run, and fans haven't pushed for that. Home release or in particular HBO Max seems to be what people are pushing for.

I've no idea if there's a financial incentive in all of this for WB. I'll leave that to the money men to determine. It has been demonstrated before that home releases, depending on what's on offer, can be lucrative. Of course this is a different situation than usual. Blame Momoa for fanning the flames. :pac: