Child Killed in Sulky Accident

Ave Sodalis

Rocket19 wrote:

However, it just isn't helpful to compare the situation of a safety conscious rider like you or me, where how the driver behaves on the road plays a big part in the safety aspect (not slowing down, speeding by the horse, etc). It's not the same situation. These are kids handling vehicles (horse and cart), and weaving them through traffic at high speed.

But we don't know that this was the case. Yes, children should not have been in control, but there is nothing to say that the cart/sulky/whatever it was was being weaved through traffic at speed.

TG1

Rocket19 wrote: »

These are kids handling vehicles (horse and cart), and weaving them through traffic at high speed.

All the education in the world on the part of the driver (of the car) will not stop these incidents/accidents happening, as the horse and carts should not be there in the first place.
There is nothing the driver of a car can do in this situation to minimise risk, bar stopping their vehicle together.

I disagree, it's not a vehicle its an animal, this is why it all gets even more dangerous. An animal will react to its surroundings, a vehicle will not. If a truck lets off an air brake or a car driver hits the horn there is a high chance an animal will spook, a vehicle will not.

This is where the driver awareness comes into play, whether its my mare suited and booted and high vis everywhere from her browband to high vis strips on her back boots, or a hairy pony with a bit of rope through its mouth, drivers need to be aware they are not vehicles. Everyone need to know that they need a wider berth, and more care when approaching. If this means stopping for a minute then the driver should stop!

Nermal

Torricelli wrote: »

You want to kill the innocent horses? WTF, it's hardly their fault.

Better to be euthanised than 'looked after' by travellers. Should be illegal to bring a horse inside the M50.

TG1

Nermal wrote: »

Better to be euthanised than 'looked after' by travellers. Should be illegal to bring a horse inside the M50.

But of a generalisation, you should pop out to the dunsink horse club... I wouldn't put any of those healthy happy well looked after animals down...

foggy_lad

TG1 wrote: »

I don't want to comment on the particular case as its still all unclear, a truck drivers life is irreversibly changed and a family have lost a child.

But in general people who don't deal with horses have no idea how unpredictable they are. They deal with them the same as bikes when they come across them on the road, revving engines, trying to get past asap, ignore hand signals.

They are big unpredictable flight animals, it will cost drivers two minutes max to let the rider/ person in control get to a spot they are comfertable with and allow the car to pass without danger. This needs to be highlighted, whether you come across a horse being ridden, driven or led, slow down, wait until you can give it a wide berth and heed any hand signals the person in control gives.

This might be the case when you are dealing with a proper horse rider, but when coming up on these sulkies and other traps pulled by mostly unbroken and often underage ponies which are often driven by children with little or no control of the vehicle the best solution is an outright ban and removal and destruction of all the animals.

sup_dude wrote: »

But we don't know that this was the case. Yes, children should not have been in control, but there is nothing to say that the cart/sulky/whatever it was was being weaved through traffic at speed.

Weaving through traffic or not one thing we do know for sure is that if there were no sulkies and traps and illegal horses and ponies that child most certainly would not have died!

In city areas children are almost always in control of these vehicles and parents even buy them horses/ponies for birthdays etc, there is no consideration for animal welfare or indeed the laws of the land.

TG1 wrote: »

I disagree, it's not a vehicle its an animal, this is why it all gets even more dangerous. An animal will react to its surroundings, a vehicle will not. If a truck lets off an air brake or a car driver hits the horn there is a high chance an animal will spook, a vehicle will not.

This is where the driver awareness comes into play, whether its my mare suited and booted and high vis everywhere from her browband to high vis strips on her back boots, or a hairy pony with a bit of rope through its mouth, drivers need to be aware they are not vehicles. Everyone need to know that they need a wider berth, and more care when approaching. If this means stopping for a minute then the driver should stop!

Would you hack on through the busiest traffic in the city with a horse or other animal? probably not?

Now think of the difference between you and a 10-16 year old child and how little they will be thinking of their surroundings and the danger posed to themselves and all around them.

There is no way any car bus or lorry driver can make allowances for these sulkies and illegal horses without actually staying off the roads!

Nermal wrote: »

Better to be euthanised than 'looked after' by travellers These children. Should be illegal to bring a horse inside the M50 Pale.

These animals are livestock and need to be seen as such rather than being seen as cuddly pets for inner city kids. Most livestock has a Purpose and a Value and as such is important and worthwhile keeping these animals alive, These horses and ponies and Foals have NO Purpose or Value as livestock so should not be kept alive under any circumstances

TG1 wrote: »

But of a generalisation, you should pop out to the dunsink horse club... I wouldn't put any of those healthy happy well looked after animals down...

a very tiny percentage of the horses owned used and abused by these people around the country are kept in such a high standard of luxury. Being honest schemes like at Dunsink only encourage the abuse of hundreds of other horses around the city as people see dunsink and feel they are also entitled to have their own horse on the green spaces around their estate.

The current laws need to be enforced with zero tolerance and all the horses removed and euthanised so that such a tragedy has little chance of happening again.

Ave Sodalis

foggy_lad wrote:

Weaving through traffic or not one thing we do know for sure is that if there were no sulkies and traps and illegal horses and ponies that child most certainly would not have died!

Well that's a silly argument which could be applied to every accident or death.

foggy_lad wrote:

Would you hack on through the busiest traffic in the city with a horse or other animal? probably not?

Again, silly. Many carts do. They are all over some cities. A few days ago, a horse drawn hearse was hit in the UK. A few days ago, a video emerged of a lorry driver come dangerously close to a horse and rider. If the horse had even flinched, both horse and rider would have been seriously injured or killed. City or country, idiotic drivers exist. Now we don't know the cause of this particular accident but until we do, I think it's unfair to lay blame on the trap driver.

foggy_lad

When a child dies in such tragic circumstances I don't think laying blame in any direction is helpful and will not change what has happened but removing the horses and traps from the equation will prevent another child being killed or injured in accidents or by livestock roaming around housing estates and built up urban areas.

Ave Sodalis

foggy_lad wrote:

When a child dies in such tragic circumstances I don't think laying blame in any direction is helpful and will not change what has happened but removing the horses and traps from the equation will prevent another child being killed or injured in accidents or by livestock roaming around housing estates and built up urban areas.

Removing dangerous/ignorant drivers would have a similar effect. Again, silly argument.

Ms2011

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

That child should have been in school.

He was off school due to the voting.

His poor mother was in town buying his Confirmation clothes

foggy_lad

sup_dude wrote: »

Removing dangerous/ignorant drivers would have a similar effect. Again, silly argument.

Are you seriously proposing removing all other vehicular traffic from the roads to safeguard people and their kids to run amok with horses?

Dangerous drivers are few and far between while almost every one of these horses and sulkies/traps is a danger to all other road users as well as a danger to people living in the same estates and communities where these horses are running wild! There is also a level of illegality involved with most of these horses from them not being microchipped to them not being licensed and also a serious issue with the welfare of most of the animals.

The only reasonable and satisfactory solution is to round up the livestock and deal with them as strays as per the law.

Ave Sodalis

foggy_lad wrote:

Are you seriously proposing removing all other vehicular traffic from the roads to safeguard people and their kids to run amok with horses?

No and if you read my posts, you'd know that.

foggy_lad wrote:

Dangerous drivers are few and far between while almost every one of these horses and sulkies/traps is a danger to all other road users as well as a danger to people living in the same estates and communities where these horses are running wild! There is also a level of illegality involved with most of these horses from them not being microchipped to them not being licensed and also a serious issue with the welfare of most of the animals.

Dangerous drivers are very very common when it comes to driving around animals.
There are sulky/trap/cart drivers who are responsible. Plenty of them. People who have entire businesses around them. Not sure why you're painting them with the same brush.
You have no idea whether the horse involved in the accident was microchip or passported. No need to make assumptions either way.

Kev W

Maya Calm Mincemeat wrote: »

I think horsing around like this can result in dire consequences like we have seen yesterday, a total night-mare. Should children be allowed ride sulkys? I say neigh.

My greatest hope for you is that you have a child that dies and that people find it funny.

Banned.

Lisha

Ms2011 wrote: »

He was off school due to the voting.

His poor mother was in town buying his Confirmation clothes

She must be going through absolute hell.
Condolences to that poor boys family.

foggy_lad

sup_dude wrote: »

No and if you read my posts, you'd know that.



Dangerous drivers are very very common when it comes to driving around animals.
There are sulky/trap/cart drivers who are responsible. Plenty of them. People who have entire businesses around them. Not sure why you're painting them with the same brush.
You have no idea whether the horse involved in the accident was microchip or passported. No need to make assumptions either way.

We are talking about two different groups here I think? I am talking about people(children mostly) who are buying animals for a few Euro and driving them (through hell) into the ground and are most definitely a danger on and off the roads. the animals are rarely chipped or licensed and often live in the worst conditions and are left to roam around the streets and estates and are treated so cruelly that death is a blessed release for them. Laws are most definitely broken but this is ignored by the government, Gardai and Councils.

The majority of these kids are not intentionally cruel or breaking the law deliberately but they buy a horse for a tenner or swap some toy for a horse and know nothing about the costs involved in keeping and caring for a horse or pony.

Ave Sodalis

foggy_lad wrote: »

We are talking about two different groups here I think? I am talking about people(children mostly) who are buying animals for a few Euro and driving them (through hell) into the ground and are most definitely a danger on and off the roads. the animals are rarely chipped or licensed and often live in the worst conditions and are left to roam around the streets and estates and are treated so cruelly that death is a blessed release for them. Laws are most definitely broken but this is ignored by the government, Gardai and Councils.

The majority of these kids are not intentionally cruel or breaking the law deliberately but they buy a horse for a tenner or swap some toy for a horse and know nothing about the costs involved in keeping and caring for a horse or pony.

I'm talking about this specific case.

All My Stars Aligned

I feel there is no justification for horses to be allowed on public roads, under any circumstance.

If owners wish to pursue their interest/hobby or whatever you wish to call it they should do so either on private grounds or dedicated trails if such things exist.

MarkAnthony

While I don't really like the bloody things trotting around Dublin 8 (Where I've experienced them), I don't really see how it's more dangerous to be on one of these rather than kids on bikes.

MarkAnthony

All My Stars Aligned wrote: »

I feel there is no justification for horses to be allowed on public roads, under any circumstance.

If owners wish to pursue their interest/hobby or whatever you wish to call it they should do so either on private grounds or dedicated trails if such things exist.

I feel the same way about tractors. Obviously they'd never need to be moved from where they are to where they need to be. :rolleyes:

Ave Sodalis

All My Stars Aligned wrote: »

I feel there is no justification for horses to be allowed on public roads, under any circumstance.

If owners wish to pursue their interest/hobby or whatever you wish to call it they should do so either on private grounds or dedicated trails if such things exist.

Road work is one of the best things you can do with a horse. It builds muscle, strengthens bones and allows a horse to stretch. It's not as monotonous as going around and around an arena (if you are lucky to have one), and stops the horse getting bored. No, no such things exist.

genericguy

All My Stars Aligned wrote: »

I feel there is no justification for horses to be allowed on public roads, under any circumstance.

If owners wish to pursue their interest/hobby or whatever you wish to call it they should do so either on private grounds or dedicated trails if such things exist.

I agree. My bmw belongs on the road, a horse doesnt. And if I was seen in it without a seat belt I'd be fined. What happens to sulky drivers (travellers!) Who don't wear a seat belt?

Further, for the people here who seem to love sulkies so much: how delighted would you be if your daughters new boyfriend was coming to dinner to meet you, and turned up with one?

Yep I thought so.

Kev W

genericguy wrote: »

I agree. My bmw belongs on the road, a horse doesnt. And if I was seen in it without a seat belt I'd be fined. What happens to sulky drivers (travellers!) Who don't wear a seat belt?

Further, for the people here who seem to love sulkies so much: how delighted would you be if your daughters new boyfriend was coming to dinner to meet you, and turned up with one?

Yep I thought so.

Amazing that you were able to hear people answer your question before you even finished posting it.

Ave Sodalis

genericguy wrote: »

I agree. My bmw belongs on the road, a horse doesnt. And if I was seen in it without a seat belt I'd be fined. What happens to sulky drivers (travellers!) Who don't wear a seat belt?

Further, for the people here who seem to love sulkies so much: how delighted would you be if your daughters new boyfriend was coming to dinner to meet you, and turned up with one?

Yep I thought so.

Not all sulky drivers are travellers. Not all trap drivers are travellers. Not all cart drivers are travellers. Not all travellers make such a nuisance of themselves.

genericguy

Kev W wrote: »

Amazing that you were able to hear people answer your question before you even finished posting it.

Yeah I've lived in Ireland a long time so it gets predictable

Kev W

genericguy wrote: »

Yeah I've lived in Ireland a long time so it gets predictable

It's much easier to predict people's answers when you base them in your own bigotry.

foggy_lad

sup_dude wrote: »

I'm talking about this specific case.

In this case what we know is that the pony bolted and collided with the truck and overturned, two of the three boys on the trap managed to jump or were thrown clear while the other boy died.

The trap looks like it was thrown together in a shed with a welder and some bicycle wheels. We may never know if the pony was licensed or chipped but if the pony had been picked up by the council for not being licensed or chipped or for being owned by someone under age then this boy may not have lost his life

sup_dude wrote: »

Road work is one of the best things you can do with a horse. It builds muscle, strengthens bones and allows a horse to stretch. It's not as monotonous as going around and around an arena (if you are lucky to have one), and stops the horse getting bored. No, no such things exist.

You are talking like someone who owns a horse or regularly goes riding on horses from some riding school/centre.

Would you put three boys 10-12 years old onto three ponies and let them off out into the middle of dublins lunchtime traffic??

sup_dude wrote: »

Not all sulky drivers are travellers. Not all trap drivers are travellers. Not all cart drivers are travellers. Not all travellers make such a nuisance of themselves.

Agreed! but most of the sulky/trap drivers are young kids with no real knowledge and using horses/ponies and even foals which are usually unbroken and mostly frightened half to death! they are terrified of being whipped so will pull the trap until their fear of the beating is overcome by the fear of the traffic and they bolt!

This poor boy was not a member of the travelling community, he just loved horses.

Ave Sodalis

foggy_lad wrote: »

In this case what we know is that the pony bolted and collided with the truck and overturned, two of the three boys on the trap managed to jump or were thrown clear while the other boy died.

The trap looks like it was thrown together in a shed with a welder and some bicycle wheels. We may never know if the pony was licensed or chipped but if the pony had been picked up by the council for not being licensed or chipped or for being owned by someone under age then this boy may not have lost his life

He may not have owned the pony, and the pony may have been passported and chipped so it would have done nothing.

You are talking like someone who owns a horse or regularly goes riding on horses from some riding school/centre.

Would you put three boys 10-12 years old onto three ponies and let them off out into the middle of dublins lunchtime traffic??

With the right horse, yes. Again, there's cities all over the world that do that. You even have to watch yourself in Florence, in case tourists approach in carts. With any of the horses I work with, no but accidents happen with the best of horses.

Agreed! but most of the sulky/trap drivers are young kids with no real knowledge and using horses/ponies and even foals which are usually unbroken and mostly frightened half to death! they are terrified of being whipped so will pull the trap until their fear of the beating is overcome by the fear of the traffic and they bolt!

This poor boy was not a member of the travelling community, he just loved horses.

Most aren't. As much as I hate seeing the abusers (and I really really hate it), I'm not going to make sweeping statements like that because it's simply not true.

foggy_lad

sup_dude wrote: »

He may not have owned the pony, and the pony may have been passported and chipped so it would have done nothing.

chances are him or one of his friends owned the pony and it was most likely unchipped and without license or other obligatory documentation.

With the right horse, yes. Again, there's cities all over the world that do that. You even have to watch yourself in Florence, in case tourists approach in carts. With any of the horses I work with, no but accidents happen with the best of horses.

None of the horses ponies and foals used by these kids are or will ever be the right horse. Even with proper care feeding and loving attention most will be too damaged to be used by a riding school or to be riden again.

Most aren't. As much as I hate seeing the abusers (and I really really hate it), I'm not going to make sweeping statements like that because it's simply not true.

Nobody likes the idea of a horse cull but I would prefer every horse in the city was shot on the spot than another person killed or injured by these feral horses.

These horses ponies and foals are worthless!

How much is a life worth?

Ave Sodalis

foggy_lad wrote:

chances are him or one of his friends owned the pony and it was most likely unchipped and without license or other obligatory documentation.

We really don't know that

foggy_lad wrote:

None of the horses ponies and foals used by these kids are or will ever be the right horse. Even with proper care feeding and loving attention most will be too damaged to be used by a riding school or to be riden again.

Not true

foggy_lad wrote:

Nobody likes the idea of a horse cull but I would prefer every horse in the city was shot on the spot than another person killed or injured by these feral horses.

I would actually stand behind a horse cull. There are too many horses in the country, and too much rubbish. But not necessarily just city horses.

Discodog

If you seize & euthanise horses they will simply go out & get more. The death is the responsibility of the parents for allowing the child to be in charge of the horse & even more the authorities who make pointless law because they don't enforce it.

Any person who is going to ride a horse or drive a horse on a public road should have passed a test. The animal should be chipped, registered & insured. If you get a horse illegally then you should expect to have it seized & then you be made responsible for the cost of it's upkeep - by deduction from benefits if necessary.

One horse in an estate or one sulky video on youtube encourages children but it's the parents responsibility. Ireland is so good at making law & hopeless at enforcing them especially if it means going near the Traveller community.

The problem is made so much worse because of the still primitive Irish view of animal welfare. We should have a countrywide organisation like the RSPCA but the Irish public won't pay for it.

Discodog

sup_dude wrote: »

We really don't know that



Not true



I would actually stand behind a horse cull. There are too many horses in the country, and too much rubbish. But not necessarily just city horses.

And you are speaking here as someone who likes horses :rolleyes:

Ave Sodalis

Discodog wrote:

If you seize & euthanise horses they will simply go out & get more. The death is the responsibility of the parents for allowing the child to be in charge of the horse & even more the authorities who make pointless law because they don't enforce it.

A bit more traumatic for a child to lose a horse.

Discodog wrote:

Any person who is going to ride a horse or drive a horse on a public road should have passed a test. The animal should be chipped, registered & insured. If you get a horse illegally then you should expect to have it seized & then you be made responsible for the cost of it's upkeep - by deduction from benefits if necessary.

There is a test (not compulsory) and they usually are chipped and insured. Get a horse illegally? What about tests for the drivers? Like I said, I've been in more potentially fatal situations from ignorant drivers.

Discodog wrote:

One horse in an estate or one sulky video on youtube encourages children but it's the parents responsibility. Ireland is so good at making law & hopeless at enforcing them especially if it means going near the Traveller community.

Apparently, this child wasn't a traveller.

Discodog wrote:

The problem is made so much worse because of the still primitive Irish view of animal welfare. We should have a countrywide organisation like the RSPCA but the Irish public won't pay for it.

We have. ISPCA? There's also multiple equine charities.

Ave Sodalis

Discodog wrote:

And you are speaking here as someone who likes horses

Yes. There was a boom, and during it, people who never owned a horse in their life bought and bred any old pony to any old pony, and we ended up with a lot of horses and ponies that were useless. They were then tossed aside and resulted in abandoned horses all over the country. It would be better for the horses and for the industry.

gctest50

foggy_lad wrote: »

The trap looks like it was thrown together in a shed with a welder and some bicycle wheels.

some bicycle

http://i.imgur.com/B9N4tE6.jpg

foggy_lad wrote: »

We may never know if the pony was licensed or chipped but..

It either was licenced or chipped or it wasn't

Being chipped, licenced doesn't ensure it won't happen, they're a bit on the strong side :

foggy_lad wrote: »

......but if the pony had been picked up by the council for not being licensed or chipped or for being owned by someone under age then this boy may not have lost his life

wonky logic there

.

Discodog

sup_dude wrote: »

A bit more traumatic for a child to lose a horse.

There is a test (not compulsory) and they usually are chipped and insured. Get a horse illegally? What about tests for the drivers? Like I said, I've been in more potentially fatal situations from ignorant drivers.
Apparently, this child wasn't a traveller.
We have. ISPCA? There's also multiple equine charities.

If the test isn't compulsory there is no point having it.

You are the one suggesting mass culls but now you say's it traumatic for a child owner.

I agree about ignorant drivers.

The ISPCA have only 5 inspectors for the whole country. The RSPCA have hundreds. The UK public donate generously to the RSPCA. The ISPCA get very little.

I hate the way that people who are supposed to work with & respect horses can refer to them as useless. How about the "industry" using some of it's vast resources & influence to provide for horse welfare & maybe some training ?

topmanamillion

There needs to be tight regulation of horse and traps.
Banning then from major highways with strictly enforced penalties for law breakers.
I understand there's a tradition there but I'll give an example of a tradition from my own background that has ended.
I'm from a farming background. For years we walked cattle from fields a good distance from the main farmhouse (distances of 5-10miles).
Now this practice would've been done for centuries in our family and I'm sure it was similar for other farm families.
It got to a point about 10-15 year ago where it was no longer safe to herd cattle on public roads. Where once you were meeting maybe small ford's or similar cars all of a sudden there was 1.9 TDI volkswagons and other high powered cars with a value in excess of E60k. It had to end.

It's a similar situation with horse and traps it's no longer feasible and hasn't been for a very long time.
I have no trouble with officially organised events where roads are closed. Outside that though it has to be on private property or low traffic tertiorrary roads (covered in signs warning the road is used for such purposes) and practised by adults who have completed a course/horse and trap driving license.

Ave Sodalis

Discodog wrote:

If the test isn't compulsory there is no point having it.

Really?

Discodog wrote:

You are the one suggesting mass culls but now you say's it traumatic for a child owner.

To have their horse taken and put down? I mean cull the ones that wouldn't have happened in ordinary circumstances.

Discodog wrote:

The ISPCA have only 5 inspectors for the whole country. The RSPCA have hundreds. The UK public donate generously to the RSPCA. The ISPCA get very little.

There's also other equine charities. It comes back to having too many horses.

Discodog wrote:

I hate the way that people who are supposed to work with & respect horses can refer to them as useless. How about the "industry" used some of it's vast resources & influence to provide for horse welfare & maybe some training ?

There is. I'm pretty sure I've told you about them before in other threads. It's only gonna do more damage to stick your head in the ground and pretend the problem is fixable like that. The truth is, there's a huge amount of horses with no breeding behind it and we as a country cannot afford them. It's better to spend money producing great horses than spending money keeping bad breeding practices afloat.

Discodog

sup_dude wrote: »

Really?
To have their horse taken and put down? I mean cull the ones that wouldn't have happened in ordinary circumstances.
There's also other equine charities. It comes back to having too many horses.
There is. I'm pretty sure I've told you about them before in other threads. It's only gonna do more damage to stick your head in the ground and pretend the problem is fixable like that. The truth is, there's a huge amount of horses with no breeding behind it and we as a country cannot afford them. It's better to spend money producing great horses than spending money keeping bad breeding practices afloat.

Lets make the driving test voluntary :rolleyes:

I have no idea what the part in bold means

There a a few totally cashed strapped charities. A tiny amount for the population of Ireland.

The difference between you & I is that you care about the industry whereas I care about the animals.

Someone bred these animals & we, as a State, allowed them to. So either the owners should be made to care for them or the State should. All you do by the mass killing of dogs, cats & horses is attribute no value to them & make them disposable. That just encourages people to get more.

It's time to make people responsible for their actions rather that just relying on others to clear up the mess.

Ave Sodalis

Discodog wrote:

Lets make the driving test voluntary

Do you really think mandatory BHS exams are going to do anything to the people who cause problems? The type of people who cause the problems are not going to be the type to pay any heed to the exams.

Discodog wrote:

I have no idea what the part in bold means

It means that responsible owners and breeders would not have bred majority of those horses out there today. It means that if it wasn't for every Tom, Dick and Harry buying a pony or two when they had money, despite not knowing the tail from the head, there wouldn't be so much rubbish.

Discodog wrote:

There a a few totally cashed strapped charities. A tiny amount for the population of Ireland.

There is, which reinforced the need to get rid of a few horses. We are overpopulated.

Discodog wrote:

The difference between you & I is that you care about the industry whereas I care about the animals.

And yeah, that old line. I remember you throwing that at me before... it doesn't make it any more true...

Discodog wrote:

Someone bred these animals & we, as a State, allowed them to. So either the owners should be made to care for them or the State should. All you do by the mass killing of dogs, cats & horses is attribute no value to them & make them disposable. That just encourages people to get more.

No see, unlike cats and dogs, horses have gone back to being owned by people who want to invest the time and money into them. They aren't being bred like rats anymore. Them becoming disposable caused the problem in the first place.

foggy_lad

Discodog wrote: »

I hate the way that people who are supposed to work with & respect horses can refer to them as useless. How about the "industry" using some of it's vast resources & influence to provide for horse welfare & maybe some training ?

These horses and foals and ponies are worthless, they have no value apart from what the knacker man will pay for them. If councils round them up and change the law so that a licence is only issued to horses which are chipped and dispatch all horses without a microchip in a humane way as quickly as possible it will stop people from getting more as the supply of worthless horses will dry up and price will rise beyond the reach of kids.

Discodog wrote: »

The difference between you & I is that you care about the industry whereas I care about the animals.

If you really cared about them you would see them humanely euthanised rather than live a life of agony and torture.

Someone bred these animals & we, as a State, allowed them to. So either the owners should be made to care for them or the State should. All you do by the mass killing of dogs, cats & horses is attribute no value to them & make them disposable. That just encourages people to get more.

It's time to make people responsible for their actions rather that just relying on others to clear up the mess.

It is time to change people's attitude that they are entitled to keep a horse when they have no money and no land to keep a dog nevermind a horse!

Cienciano

foggy_lad wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/boy-11-killed-when-the-pony-and-trap-he-was-travelling-on-collided-with-truck-34489544.html

When are the authorities going to take proper action and stop this senseless loss of life? When are Horses going to be banned in city areas and taken from children and teens?

How many children have to die before the councils and government get their act together and round up all these horses and euthanise them?

Loads of sulkeys driven by kids around the D12 D10 area. Don't blame the councils and government, blame the families that let their kids out on the road with them. Same with the families that let their kids out on scramblers.

foggy_lad

Cienciano wrote: »

Loads of sulkeys driven by kids around the D12 D10 area. Don't blame the councils and government, blame the families that let their kids out on the road with them. Same with the families that let their kids out on scramblers.

But the council have an obligation under the control of horses act which they appear to be ignoring, Is there no company that would make money from collection storage and transporting these animals to slaughter?

The law needs to be tweaked to make microchipping obligatory before any other license or passport is provided and all animals not chipped to be rounded up and destroyed with no grace period or appeal. do not let people think that they can buy a horse out of the pound by producing a few papers and a few hundred euro.

Tilikum

foggy_lad wrote: »

But the council have an obligation under the control of horses act which they appear to be ignoring, Is there no company that would make money from collection storage and transporting these animals to slaughter?

The law needs to be tweaked to make microchipping obligatory before any other license or passport is provided and all animals not chipped to be rounded up and destroyed with no grace period or appeal. do not let people think that they can buy a horse out of the pound by producing a few papers and a few hundred euro.

'How many children have to die before the councils and government get their act together and round up all these horses and euthanise them'

Christ on a bike.

gctest50

Tilikum wrote: »

'How many children have to die before the councils and government get their act together and round up all these horses and euthanise them'

Christ on a bike.

and what will it take ;

Cienciano

foggy_lad wrote: »

But the council have an obligation under the control of horses act which they appear to be ignoring, Is there no company that would make money from collection storage and transporting these animals to slaughter?

The law needs to be tweaked to make microchipping obligatory before any other license or passport is provided and all animals not chipped to be rounded up and destroyed with no grace period or appeal. do not let people think that they can buy a horse out of the pound by producing a few papers and a few hundred euro.

Someone posted a link saying you have to be 16 to be in control of a horse on a public road. Sometimes you see kids on a sulkie and seriously, they wouldn't even be 10.
Police don't bother their arse because I assume they just get abuse from the parents and nothing is done anyway. The families have to take responsibility.
People think they're entitled to do what ever they want, maybe a few cheap lessons is needed here.

Tilikum

gctest50 wrote: »

and what will it take ;

What are you trying to say, it's the poor horse's fault?

gctest50

Tilikum wrote: »

What are you trying to say, it's the poor horse's fault?

No, the stuff in that youtube isn't on though

and they won't go to waste, healthier than beef and tasty :

oppenheimer1

Discodog wrote: »

If you seize & euthanise horses they will simply go out & get more. The death is the responsibility of the parents for allowing the child to be in charge of the horse & even more the authorities who make pointless law because they don't enforce it.

Any person who is going to ride a horse or drive a horse on a public road should have passed a test. The animal should be chipped, registered & insured. If you get a horse illegally then you should expect to have it seized & then you be made responsible for the cost of it's upkeep - by deduction from benefits if necessary.

One horse in an estate or one sulky video on youtube encourages children but it's the parents responsibility. Ireland is so good at making law & hopeless at enforcing them especially if it means going near the Traveller community.

The problem is made so much worse because of the still primitive Irish view of animal welfare. We should have a countrywide organisation like the RSPCA but the Irish public won't pay for it.

I disagree. I don't see you can apportion a larger amount of the blame to the state over the parents. Its basic common sense that you don't let children drive horses on roads. A parent shouldn't need the risk of enforcement as a deterrent, the obvious danger should be enough.

Kev W

Kev W wrote: »

My greatest hope for you is that you have a child that dies and that people find it funny.

Holy fcuk.

How hypocritical of you. You think that it's not ok to joke about a child's death (I agree) but you think it is ok to wish for someone's child to die?

What in the actual fcuk would make you think that posting something like that was a good idea.

Jesus.

Discodog

sup_dude wrote: »

Do you really think mandatory BHS exams are going to do anything to the people who cause problems? The type of people who cause the problems are not going to be the type to pay any heed to the exams.

It means that responsible owners and breeders would not have bred majority of those horses out there today. It means that if it wasn't for every Tom, Dick and Harry buying a pony or two when they had money, despite not knowing the tail from the head, there wouldn't be so much rubbish.

There is, which reinforced the need to get rid of a few horses. We are overpopulated.

And yeah, that old line. I remember you throwing that at me before... it doesn't make it any more true...

No see, unlike cats and dogs, horses have gone back to being owned by people who want to invest the time and money into them. They aren't being bred like rats anymore. Them becoming disposable caused the problem in the first place.

It's perfectly reasonable that any person, who wishes to ride or drive a horse on the public highway, is qualified, registered & insured. The only legislation now are local laws which relate to registering the horse & not licensing the rider. If we had a riding license the Guards could police it.

The people that abuse horses consider it their "right " to own them. You won't stop that by killing horses. You have to make it so that the financial penalty is strong enough to deter irresponsible ownership.

You really are ill informed if you think that cats & dogs are being bred & owned responsibly. Tell that to the thousands that are killed every year.

Discodog

foggy_lad wrote: »

These horses and foals and ponies are worthless, they have no value apart from what the knacker man will pay for them. If councils round them up and change the law so that a licence is only issued to horses which are chipped and dispatch all horses without a microchip in a humane way as quickly as possible it will stop people from getting more as the supply of worthless horses will dry up and price will rise beyond the reach of kids.

If you really cared about them you would see them humanely euthanised rather than live a life of agony and torture.

It is time to change people's attitude that they are entitled to keep a horse when they have no money and no land to keep a dog nevermind a horse!

How will killing horses stop people getting more ? Effective enforcement would but it doesn't exist. You have to remove the source or have effective law enforcement.

Really care ? I have spent over 30 years involved in animal welfare, rescue, lobbying, legislation etc. I have monitored traveller horses - have you ? The vast majority aren't being tortured or in agony. Your hyperbole doesn't help reasonable debate.

The problem is that where there is cruelty there aren't the resources to prosecute it & sometime neither the will. How do you think that 5 ISPCA Inspectors can cover the Country ?

You won't change the attitude of a group who consider it their right & "culture". You have to make law & then ensure that it is enforced.