Hung Dail?

Inquitus

storker wrote: »

Not to mention annoyed back-benchers. If FF/FG form a government together, roughly half the TDs in each party who would have been in line for a plum job will lose out.

They both lost out on that when the public voted!

grindle

newacc2015 wrote: »

People are voting for "alternatives" not because they agree with their policies.

Such an unusual thing to think. The alternatives and the like have been hell for leather reaching for the votes of people who care about specific issues, and this is coupled with a huge influx of new voters who'd initially only registered for the marriage referendum in order to combat "traditional views" and then saw that their vote actually mattered.
They won. Maybe they can win again?
At least they're taking part in the process (although my FB feed could've done without 'Look, Me Vote Now!' Posts).

I'd consider myself economically to the right yet ended up for left leaning parties because their values are more in line with mine.
Anybody who was neutral or negative to a repeal of the 8th? Down the list.
Neutral or negative to the idea of decreasing the influence the church has over schools? Down the list.
Neutral or negative to the decriminalisation of cannabis? Down y'go.
Don't like wind farms primarily due to NIMBYism? PFO.

The main parties made it hard to vote for them when either their party line or their candidates tended to have Victorian views I'd expect of people born a century before me, never mind a few decades. Was I supposed to vote for one of them despite their beliefs making me feel ashamed to?

Elemonator

This is actually so stupid. Whether you support a grand coalition between FG and FF, because of some dated suspicion and mistrust between the two parties that is nearly 100 years old at this stage, holds voters to ransom again. If we were sent back to the polls and their was a credible alternative, I know who I wouldn't vote for.

Inquitus

Elemonator wrote: »

This is actually so stupid. Whether you support a grand coalition between FG and FF, because of some dated suspicion and mistrust between the two parties that is nearly 100 years old at this stage, holds voters to ransom again. If we were sent back to the polls and their was a credible alternative, I know who I wouldn't vote for.

The People have spoken and it's a Grand Coalition or another election, and FF/FG have to fear they will do worse if we are sent back to the polls.

murphaph

100 year old civil war politics aside, what is the ideological difference between FF and FG? It's high time these parties merged IMO. Maybe politics can improve in Ireland if the defining nature of the 2 biggest parties isn't some position their predecessors took on something that happened a century ago.

A coalition between these 2 parties seems like a long overdue step really.

u2me

There is no strong ideological differences between Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil. They remain slightly left or right of each other on economic or social issues but nothing that can't be overcome.

The civil war divide is part of the past and should not influence the future. I imagine political issues in the form of party position and the dealing out of the various ministry positions will be the greatest hurdles to overcome. A difficult balancing act which will leave many disgruntled on both sides.

Mycroft H

Is FF/Sinn Fein (minus adams)/SD/Others not enough. I could see this happen.

Fr Tod Umptious

Mycroft H wrote: »

Is FF/Sinn Fein (minus adams)/SD/Others not enough. I could see this happen.

Let's say 43+20+3 = 66, that would need 14 others just to get to the minimum for a majority.
14 is a lot to gather and keep under control.
And there is no guarantee FF will get as many as 43.
Doable ? Yes
Stable ? I don't think so.

u2me

buy a lotto ticket more chance of winning than a FF rainbow coalition with SF

Eugene Norman

Inquitus wrote: »

The People have spoken and it's a Grand Coalition or another election, and FF/FG have to fear they will do worse if we are sent back to the polls.

Or people will start voting for parties or people who want to run the place.

KingBrian2

u2me wrote: »

There is no strong ideological differences between Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil. They remain slightly left or right of each other on economic or social issues but nothing that can't be overcome.

The civil war divide is part of the past and should not influence the future. I imagine political issues in the form of party position and the dealing out of the various ministry positions will be the greatest hurdles to overcome. A difficult balancing act which will leave many disgruntled on both sides.

FF emphasise more spending and subsiding state owned assets kinda like Socialist mantra while FG is a low tax party. Gvt is there to keep the cheques coming in. Produce Irish goods and sell to international trade partners.

Ren2k7

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Being in opposition give you the chance to promise the moon and stars without having to deliver them.

Well it worked for FF didn't it?

TCDStudent1

I think it was Thomas Byrne on a week in politics was saying that there are independents elected with a Fianna Fáil history that could vote for Martin as Taoiseach. If Fianna Fáil do some sort of deal with the Healy - raes to get their vote, I'll lose all faith with politics!

NIMAN

SF don't want any part of Gov, they've made that perfectly clear, so its FF/FG or nothing at this stage.

Fr Tod Umptious

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

I think it was Thomas Byrne on a week in politics was saying that there are independents elected with a Fianna Fáil history that could vote for Martin as Taoiseach. If Fianna Fáil do some sort of deal with the Healy - raes to get their vote, I'll lose all faith with politics!

But sure Bertie relied on the support of Jackie Healy-Rae in all his governments so why would Martin doing the deal with Tweedledum and Tweedledummer surprise you ?

Ren2k7

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

I think it was Thomas Byrne on a week in politics was saying that there are independents elected with a Fianna Fáil history that could vote for Martin as Taoiseach. If Fianna Fáil do some sort of deal with the Healy - raes to get their vote, I'll lose all faith with politics!

Back to the 80's.

1st dalkey dalkey

SF are the third largest party. No getting away from that.
The establishment (FF and FG) know they are on the ropes.
Refuse to form a government and the public blame one or the other.
Form a government and SF become the main opposition, benefiting from every bit of anti government feeling that comes their way.
From an establishment point of view, the least worst option is to go back to the country. Borrow, if necessary, but try to re-establish the two party option.
Once it is gone, one of them are gone. When that happens the establishment is gone.

mrbrianj

Sein Fein have probably the most anti government bounce that they will ever have at the moment - AAA, Independents have taken that. Any increase in their support will have to be based on their own principles and policies from now on.

I cant see where the fear of making them the biggest opposition party is - good performance and communication will strengthen the government party rather than the opposition.

One thing that drives me mad are the elected (mainly FG) saying that "the people have spoken, but we cant to figure out what they are saying" - if you cant figure that out you are in the wrong game!

Sleepy

The right move for Fine Gael is to publicly beg FF to join them as a junior partner in a coalition and then abstain from the vote when FF refuse their offer and nominate Martin as Taoiseach.

When the minority FF government falls within a wet week, FG would surely stand to gain most at a second election?

mrbrianj

They would then run the risk of being looking like sulks putting the party ahead of the country and by doing so giving FF the bounce in the next election.

They dropped the ball big time, I think they have to look as willing as possible to work for the country and let past good work stand and the bad spin fade.

handlemaster

Is it just the spokes people for FG and FF that knows the difference between the two parties! They are more or less the same.. why pretend otherwise

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

I'd argue that FG were that little bit more honest and respectful of people's wishes than FF. Yes, I know they brought in watercharges and did a crap job of it, but if it wasn't that the alternative would have been far harsher and because FF necessitated the baleout deal, it became a necessity itself. Not that that matters much. I also think they'd be more socially liberal than FF.

Case in point: legalised abortion, compulsory Irish and a stronger split between Church and State would probably all be more likely with FG.

mrbrianj

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I'd argue that FG were that little bit more honest and respectful of people's wishes than FF. Yes, I know they brought in watercharges and did a crap job of it, but if it wasn't that the alternative would have been far harsher and because FF necessitated the baleout deal, it became a necessity itself. Not that that matters much. I also think they'd be more socially liberal than FF.

Case in point: legalised abortion, compulsory Irish and a stronger split between Church and State would probably all be more likely with FG.

That sounds like the complete opposite of FG members I know!!
Old school FF and FG are cut from the same cloth, don't let Leo and young FG pull the wool over your eyes.

As for the last government people hoped for them to be honest and respectful, but got more of the same.

uck51js9zml2yt

The voting and particularly transfers made no sense.
There was a strong non party vote but very few transfers from SF to other parties.
Andrews was a case in point, just over 300 votes when eliminated with over 2000 of those non transferrable.... So much for their right to change pact.

Sleepy

mrbrianj wrote: »

They would then run the risk of being looking like sulks putting the party ahead of the country and by doing so giving FF the bounce in the next election.

They dropped the ball big time, I think they have to look as willing as possible to work for the country and let past good work stand and the bad spin fade.

How so? Once they appeared genuine in their public efforts to form a coalition, surely Fianna Fail would be the ones appearing to be the "sulks" that weren't prepared to put country before party when they refuse?

Abstaining from voting against Martin would be widely regarded as "statesman-like" and then it would be simply of waiting for Fianna Fail to hang themselves with the length of rope they'd been given and do something that would "force" Fine Gael to vote against them?

Maybe I've been watching too much West Wing / House of Cards but the politics seems fairly straight-forward here to me at least...

Esmeralda Large Supplement wrote: »

The voting and particularly transfers made no sense.
There was a strong non party vote but very few transfers from SF to other parties.
Andrews was a case in point, just over 300 votes when eliminated with over 2000 of those non transferrable.... So much for their right to change pact.

You expect sanity in transfers from SF voters?

Tabnabs

It's easy to forget how socially conservative FF are, historically. I suspect FG are cut from the sale cloth and the equality referendum was a Labour initiative which FG were happy to support, once they saw how the wind was blowing.

We won't see any Fine Fail grand coalition, party politics will trump national interest in that scenario. One FG commentator mentioned over the weekend that "the people had spoken" and it was time for FG to step back. I see Enda & Co. watching eagerly to see how strong a new FF Coalition will be, hammering them from the opposition benches and looking to capitalise on the inevitable trouncing that FF will get as the outgoing government party at election 161/162/17/18/19/20.

The thought of SF being the main opposition must come with quite a bit of amusement from the two main parties. Gerry Adams has shown himself to be a poor parliamentarian and a veritable dictator of the SF party. SF may be capable activists at local level, but when it comes to the national stage, they fail to impress. You have to remember that until almost 20 years ago, SF didn't believe in the legitimacy of Dáil Éireann and in 1997 Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin became the first non-abstentionist Sinn Féin TD to take a seat in Dáil Éireann since the Civil War. Handy the way they managed to iron out that little wrinkle!

But any talk of a seismic shift in the political landscape or the downfall in the establishment is complete fanciful thinking. Here we are again FG vs FF and ever was it thus.

uck51js9zml2yt

Sleepy wrote: »

You expect sanity in transfers from SF voters?

Ah here, do you think I'm altogether stupid
It makes a mockery of their so called left alliance and proves again that they are all words and no action.
The insane ones are those who believe the guff and vote for them.

handlemaster

I wonder who will benefit from the road contracts and other services for Kerry that come up

uck51js9zml2yt

handlemaster wrote: »

I wonder who will benefit from the road contracts and other services for Kerry that come up

You really have to ask ???;)

A Dub in Glasgo

Esmeralda Large Supplement wrote: »

Ah here, do you think I'm altogether stupid
It makes a mockery of their so called left alliance and proves again that they are all words and no action.
The insane ones are those who believe the guff and vote for them.

Maybe you guys can educate me as I am too used to FPTP in use here but I thought votes were deemed non-transferable when they cannot be sent to someone else. In the example of Andrews, the remaining candidates were FG, FF, Labour, and Green. What left alliance was left?