GAMSAT 2017

Guidance

ilovesmecounty wrote: »

Just got the email from RCSI confirming next Wednesday. It starts late enough in the evening so I really hope I'll make it. I never know from day to day what work will throw at me and it's impossible to plan anything before 7pm. It's going to held in their new York Street building and the nerd in me is dying to see it.

Yeah, the new building should be good! I'm in a similar situation, just hoping I can make it for that time.

Limk88

Celestial12 wrote: »

Did anybody make it to the open day in UCC? Looking forward to the one in UCD! I hope it's informative. I've never been on the UCD main campus, just the Blackrock one back in September for the GAMSAT. I'll try to get there early as I'll probably get lost.

ilovesmecounty, let us know how you get on in RCSI if you make it! Is anyone applying to the mature entry courses? I haven't really looked into it, but if you're eligible for gradmed then I don't think you can apply to the mature entry undergrad courses.

I went to the UCC open day on Saturday.  It began with an introduction from one of the Drs running the GEM course, followed by a talk on fees and admissions.  UCC has 38 places for EU applicants and 34 places for non-EU applicants to the GEM course each year.  Last years GAMSAT cutoff was 58*.  The fees talk was very interesting - it seems the main reason for students dropping out of GEM courses is because they are not prepared financially so what I took away from that talk was to seriously consider how you are going to fund yourself for the duration of the course!
We got a tour of the anatomy lab which is called the FLAME lab - seems really new.  You do work with cadavers in UCC but you do prosection identification of body parts instead of dissections - in UL I believe there are no cadavers only simulations; can anyone tell me if this is true?  We then moved onto the physiology lab, which again looked new and impressive.  Then it was on to the simulated wards - apparently one of the things that sets UCC apart from other universities is that you are exposed to clinical skills early in the GEM course and the simulated wards are impressive - really looks like the hospital wards that I have frequented previously!!!  We then took blood pressure, did CPR and used the defibrillator.  
I really like the sound of UCC - it has a mix of didactic and problem based learning teaching which suits how I learn.  I think this should be a consideration when looking at the different GEM courses as they seem to be taught slightly different in each university.

Celestial12

Limk88 wrote: »

I went to the UCC open day on Saturday.  It began with an introduction from one of the Drs running the GEM course, followed by a talk on fees and admissions.  UCC has 38 places for EU applicants and 34 places for non-EU applicants to the GEM course each year.  Last years GAMSAT cutoff was 58*.  The fees talk was very interesting - it seems the main reason for students dropping out of GEM courses is because they are not prepared financially so what I took away from that talk was to seriously consider how you are going to fund yourself for the duration of the course!
We got a tour of the anatomy lab which is called the FLAME lab - seems really new.  You do work with cadavers in UCC but you do prosection identification of body parts instead of dissections - in UL I believe there are no cadavers only simulations; can anyone tell me if this is true?  We then moved onto the physiology lab, which again looked new and impressive.  Then it was on to the simulated wards - apparently one of the things that sets UCC apart from other universities is that you are exposed to clinical skills early in the GEM course and the simulated wards are impressive - really looks like the hospital wards that I have frequented previously!!!  We then took blood pressure, did CPR and used the defibrillator.  
I really like the sound of UCC - it has a mix of didactic and problem based learning teaching which suits how I learn.  I think this should be a consideration when looking at the different GEM courses as they seem to be taught slightly different in each university.

Thanks for the post, sounds like it was an informative day. I think the mixture of didactic and problem based learning sounds much better than the system that they have in place in UL. I've spoken to a few people who've been to UL and the feedback on PBL is very mixed - apparently it's difficult to gage how you're doing and what's expected of you. From what I've heard, all of the gradmed courses have an element of PBL, but I think I prefer the idea of it being supportive to traditional didactic lectures rather than being substituted by them.

UL doesn't have cadavers. Their anatomy lab does seem very impressive though.

I hope the open evening in UCD next week is beneficial. I like how they divide up their course into 5/10 credit modules which is what I'm used to from my undergrad. In UL they only have three modules in year one which I don't like at all.

Guidance

Hi all,

I went to the RCSI mature open evening. I didn't gain a lot of insight into the specifics of the GEM program but there were a few things which stood out during the evening:

- A lot of the current mature students hold down jobs as well study full-time. Two work as nurses at weekends for example! They told us that it is certainly possible but advised us not to go overboard i.e. work during the week!

- Fees are a big issue. Nothing new here, but RCSI seem very strict when it comes to the issue of funding and many of the mature students mentioned this as a potential primary stressor during your degree! Apparently loans are available although the admissions officer only commented on the loans for mature entry.

- The building is impressive. One of the highlights is the simulation room equipped with birth delivery simulation! However, for a person used to an out-door campus, it is a bit unusual.

- The admissions officer was effusive in her praise for mature entry students - in terms of degree performance - and also GEM students! She said that GEMs and mature entry students are typically among the highest performing by the end of the degree.

ilovesmecounty

Guidance wrote: »

Hi all,

I went to the RCSI mature open evening. I didn't gain a lot of insight into the specifics of the GEM program but there were a few things which stood out during the evening:

- A lot of the current mature students hold down jobs as well study full-time. Two work as nurses at weekends for example! They told us that it is certainly possible but advised us not to go overboard i.e. work during the week!

- Fees are a big issue. Nothing new here, but RCSI seem very strict when it comes to the issue of funding and many of the mature students mentioned this as a potential primary stressor during your degree! Apparently loans are available although the admissions officer only commented on the loans for mature entry.

- The building is impressive. One of the highlights is the simulation room equipped with birth delivery simulation! However, for a person used to an out-door campus, it is a bit unusual.

- The admissions officer was effusive in her praise for mature entry students - in terms of degree performance - and also GEM students! She said that GEMs and mature entry students are typically among the highest performing by the end of the degree.

Hi

I got there last night too and would echo all that guidance just wrote. A reminder too that the GEMS are currently based in Sandyford but will be moving into the Mercer building next year at some point. The other big takeaway I took from it was Money. MONEY! You will not get near the place in your first year unless you can deposit the whole chunk of that year in their account before your first day. It's understandable, they are a business. After that first year, they have a loan scheme but again it has a lot of terms and conditions. A GP spoke (he's now 10 years on from his first day as a mature student and he finished with a 45k loan and is now paying 700 a month to service that and another 700 medical indemnity insurance) so again, it hammered home that doctors don't make the big bucks. That said, you could tell he loved what he did. Also, the building is amazing (from what I saw). It was reassuring to see 'more mature' students there and enjoying it but they all had ways to make decent money on their downtime (which is the advantage of taking the extra 1-2 years to do it). It's certainly something to consider as the summer months are an opportunity to gain some funding again and we wouldn't have that option as GEMs. However, Professor Hill was really inspiring. You could tell he loved his job and he loved his college. There are too many lecturers and tutors out there who don't! On the whole, would I consider it? Absolutely. But I'm really going to have to do my sums and also look into colleges who may let you pay in instalments.

ilovesmecounty

ilovesmecounty wrote: »

Hi

I got there last night too and would echo all that guidance just wrote. A reminder too that the GEMS are currently based in Sandyford but will be moving into the Mercer building next year at some point. The other big takeaway I took from it was Money. MONEY! You will not get near the place in your first year unless you can deposit the whole chunk of that year in their account before your first day. It's understandable, they are a business. After that first year, they have a loan scheme but again it has a lot of terms and conditions. A GP spoke (he's now 10 years on from his first day as a mature student and he finished with a 45k loan and is now paying 700 a month to service that and another 700 medical indemnity insurance) so again, it hammered home that doctors don't make the big bucks. That said, you could tell he loved what he did. Also, the building is amazing (from what I saw). It was reassuring to see 'more mature' students there and enjoying it but they all had ways to make decent money on their downtime (which is the advantage of taking the extra 1-2 years to do it). It's certainly something to consider as the summer months are an opportunity to gain some funding again and we wouldn't have that option as GEMs. However, Professor Hill was really inspiring. You could tell he loved his job and he loved his college. There are too many lecturers and tutors out there who don't! On the whole, would I consider it? Absolutely. But I'm really going to have to do my sums and also look into colleges who may let you pay in instalments.

Big outgoings for that GP you mentioned that’s my own worry in relation to GEM - finances. It’s very hard to be happy if you are under long term financial strain like that. As a GP though he might be earning enough to comfortably offset that though?

ilovesmecounty

Well he certainly didn't seem unhappy! It's all relative. Some people need very little income, others need a lot more due to responsibilities, mortgages, families etc. And I know no doctor is a millionaire, or even well off from day one, but at least it does improve year on year. Again, that might not be enough for the person in their 30s who have to keep a roof over their head or who have kids, or are planning to have them. I don't buy into the whole 'if your in medicine for the pay cheque you shouldn't be here,' mantra. Yes, you need to be dedicated to it, but you also need to live. I have no shame in admitting that money is always a huge consideration with anything I do. I like money!

ilovesmecounty

ilovesmecounty wrote: »

Well he certainly didn't seem unhappy! It's all relative. Some people need very little income, others need a lot more due to responsibilities, mortgages, families etc. And I know no doctor is a millionaire, or even well off from day one, but at least it does improve year on year. Again, that might not be enough for the person in their 30s who have to keep a roof over their head or who have kids, or are planning to have them. I don't buy into the whole 'if your in medicine for the pay cheque you shouldn't be here,' mantra. Yes, you need to be dedicated to it, but you also need to live. I have no shame in admitting that money is always a huge consideration with anything I do. I like money!

I like money too I won’t lie I wouldn’t be happy without a good bit of discretionary income!

ilovesmecounty

ilovesmecounty wrote: »

Well he certainly didn't seem unhappy! It's all relative. Some people need very little income, others need a lot more due to responsibilities, mortgages, families etc. And I know no doctor is a millionaire, or even well off from day one, but at least it does improve year on year. Again, that might not be enough for the person in their 30s who have to keep a roof over their head or who have kids, or are planning to have them. I don't buy into the whole 'if your in medicine for the pay cheque you shouldn't be here,' mantra. Yes, you need to be dedicated to it, but you also need to live. I have no shame in admitting that money is always a huge consideration with anything I do. I like money!

Just re-read that post and am shocked by my spelling and grammar! I feel the need to say that was written on an iphone while I was walking... I swear I can read good!

GrabTheCREAM

Does anyone know of anyone who got 59 in the GAMSAT and got a place in UCD/RCSI? I got 59 but im a little worried as its right on the cutoff and i assume theyll prefer the higher scoring ones for the program

ilovesmecounty

Just spotted UCD are having an open evening next Thursday at 5:15 for those wanting a peep.

Celestial12

Thanks for the RCSI info Guidance and ilovesmecounty.

GrabTheCREAM wrote: »

Does anyone know of anyone who got 59 in the GAMSAT and got a place in UCD/RCSI? I got 59 but im a little worried as its right on the cutoff and i assume theyll prefer the higher scoring ones for the program

If you're heading to the UCD evening it might be worth asking if they reckon your score will be high enough. RCSI went down to 58 this year I believe, so anyone with a 59 would have received an offer.

Guidance

ilovesmecounty wrote: »

Just spotted UCD are having an open evening next Thursday at 5:15 for those wanting a peep.

The programme looks pretty decent

debbysoap

Did anyone else attend the UCD GEM open day and would like to shed some light, please? I got there late (just before the GEM student finished speaking) & left just before the SHO finished answering questions....Dublin 2/4 traffic is crazy!

ilovesmecounty

Hi I got there for the whole thing. They did a good run through of how the 4 years are structured (I haven't got the doc with me here at work but when I get home, I'll update). It seems to be split between traditional lecture-based learning and PBL. There also seems to be a huge grá for anatomy and cadavers! The current GEMs who spoke were great, they seemed to have a passion for it and enjoyed the course, while acknowledging that it was tough going at times. There will be research opportunities in the summers in UCD as well as overseas. The graduate GEM was also informative, but, maybe it was cos she was about to go in and do a night shift, she seemed to err on the side of negativity about medicine as a job. A lot of emphasis on stress, time, pressure. And that was good to hear too. The poor woman seemed really emotionally exhausted to the point where I wondered if new doctors get enough emotional support.

Celestial12

I was there too.

You missed the talk from the Professor who leads the clinical content, and the Professor of Anatomy who is also the head of the GEM course. The first two years are mainly lecture based, but there will be some patient contact. The course in UCD is lecture based for the science theory part of the course. There are 6 PBL sessions per semester (one every two weeks) for the clinical part of the course, but I’m not sure if they start in year one or year three. I think it’s year three.

There’s an intake of 100 students each year for GEM, of which 77 are EU. Altogether with the 5 year and 6 year course there’s 292 people in medicine. Anatomy labs are separate for GEM, the class is divided into two, and there are eight cadavers.

I think they said lectures/practicals amount to 30 hours per week. I thought the final year students, and the graduate doctor were all very negative. I think they were trying to give a balanced perspective on life as a medical student/junior doctor, but they seemed to spend more time focusing on the negatives than the positives. I think some people will definitely have been put off by yesterday’s talks! They said they had no regrets with their decision to study medicine, and that dropout rates are extremely small. Seems the take home is that the course is very demanding, but all worth it in the end.

It seems that there’s plenty of opportunity to do research, both within UCD and further afield, and this seems to set it apart from the other courses. The doctor at the end mentioned that up to 5 (may not be the right number, going by memory and I was itching to leave at this stage!) students go to the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia after second/third year to do summer research. Things like that would definitely set you apart down the line when applying for different schemes etc. They’d look great on any CV! They also have various medals that are awarded each year for academic excellence.

They said there’s talk about changing the 2.1 requirement, perhaps allowing for a masters, PhD etc, but it’s not likely to change anytime soon.

Feeling a bit deflated from all the negativity though... the students themselves said that nobody who starts this course isn’t doing so without doubts. It’s a huge decision and there’s pros and cons to it. I think UCD will definitely be my first choice though.

debbysoap

Thank you both so, so much!
@Celestial, yes that’s true, they did seem to be heavily highlighting stress etc but I’ve heard some Med students say medicine is not impossible as long as you mange your time wisely, and that to go into medicine believing that it’ll be so incredibly difficult is putting yourself at a disadvantage as the course itself is very doable!
Thanks again for such a comprehensive review

letsdothis

Celestial12 wrote: »

I was there too.

I think they said lectures/practicals amount to 30 hours per week. I thought the final year students, and the graduate doctor were all very negative. I think they were trying to give a balanced perspective on life as a medical student/junior doctor, but they seemed to spend more time focusing on the negatives than the positives. I think some people will definitely have been put off by yesterday’s talks! They said they had no regrets with their decision to study medicine, and that dropout rates are extremely small. Seems the take home is that the course is very demanding, but all worth it in the end.


Feeling a bit deflated from all the negativity though... the students themselves said that nobody who starts this course isn’t doing so without doubts. It’s a huge decision and there’s pros and cons to it. I think UCD will definitely be my first choice though.

I think it's vitally important that anyone considering GEM / medicine considers the negatives as well as the positives. If you are feeling deflated, that sounds like the guys last night got some excellent and valid points across! However, I think describing it as 'negativity' is completely inaccurate - it's reality.

A lot of us in final Med have been reflecting on our choice to undertake the course and what advice we would give to others thinking about it - overwhelmingly we agreed that we would stress the negatives more and urge people to fully consider the choice they are making! It's hard imagine the sacrifices that are required - and I'm saying this as someone who has made huge efforts over the last 4 years to maintain a good work-life balance throughout. Am I happy I've done it and excited about my career, despite knowing it will be difficult, stressful and challanging? Definitely, 100%. Would I do it again if I had my time over? Honestly, no.

There are numerous other careers out there with huge potential for job satisfaction (and far better salaries than medicine). The degree is just the start of a life of sacrifices for your career - moving jobs constantly for years, working long and unsociable hours, missing social and family occasions...

It's a fantastic career and an incredibly privileged one but there are far, far easier options out there. Seriously, seriously consider your choice - the workload and sacrifices are worse than you are imagining! BUT it's a hugely satisfying, emotionally/intellectually challenging course. Just be sure it really is for you.

Anita Blow

Think it's important to have current students instill some realism in prospective students. You have to remember that the colleges are businesses and on these open days they can sometimes stray into an overly rosy picture in order to attract customers (students).

I don't think any of the students are trying to be negative, but just trying to tell you guys some of the stuff we wish we had been told or taken into account when we made a decision to go into it.

gbd41p

For anyone considering ucd, I called into the aib and BOI branches associated with the college this week to enquire about few loans for gem.

AIB are no longer providing them, but BOI are. I was told that a strong guarantor is a must, and taking out further personal loans with them won’t be possible.

Just thought I’d pass this information on.

ilovesmecounty

I found the current students quite motivating actually. They were realistic, engaging and truthful. They didn't scare me off at all and I felt they were just what we needed to see and hear. The doctor didn't put me off either, I just left a bit worried for her if that makes sense!

brendanwalsh

how do ucd perform in usmle ?

heard bad reports about UL usmle scores.
hospital medicine is full of disillusioned doctors.
high likelihood you will be one of them.
be careful with a plan to escape to GP.
government are locking this field down and you may end up working for the hse rather than being able to practice independently. already there is massive strain on gp from free under 6 scheme.
training is extremely poor in ireland in majority of hospital specialties.
you will end up competing for jobs against people who are far better qualified and did their training in america.

Celestial12

letsdothis wrote: »

I think it's vitally important that anyone considering GEM / medicine considers the negatives as well as the positives. If you are feeling deflated, that sounds like the guys last night got some excellent and valid points across! However, I think describing it as 'negativity' is completely inaccurate - it's reality.

A lot of us in final Med have been reflecting on our choice to undertake the course and what advice we would give to others thinking about it - overwhelmingly we agreed that we would stress the negatives more and urge people to fully consider the choice they are making! It's hard imagine the sacrifices that are required - and I'm saying this as someone who has made huge efforts over the last 4 years to maintain a good work-life balance throughout. Am I happy I've done it and excited about my career, despite knowing it will be difficult, stressful and challanging? Definitely, 100%. Would I do it again if I had my time over? Honestly, no.

There are numerous other careers out there with huge potential for job satisfaction (and far better salaries than medicine). The degree is just the start of a life of sacrifices for your career - moving jobs constantly for years, working long and unsociable hours, missing social and family occasions...

It's a fantastic career and an incredibly privileged one but there are far, far easier options out there. Seriously, seriously consider your choice - the workload and sacrifices are worse than you are imagining! BUT it's a hugely satisfying, emotionally/intellectually challenging course. Just be sure it really is for you.

Thanks for your post, I appreciate your advice. It's just that I had already weighed up the pros and cons in my mind, and made the decision to go for it. I'm definitely not expecting GEM to be a breeze, but advice I've heard has ranged from it being no more difficult to any other degree (i.e people didn't find it more difficult than their previous degree, just more work) to being overwhelming.

The reality is you can't be sure that this is for you until you make the decision to go for it, and really get into the nitty gritty. The same is true for any big decision in life. I'm hopeful that I'm making the right decision, but I definitely have my doubts. I've already considered the "negatives", so whilst I think the student talks would have definitely benefited people who had little to no knowledge of what the course entailed. I would have preferred to have heard about the actual course structure. How are exams structured, are they mainly essay based, MCQ, short answer questions etc... Are there many assignments to do on top of study hours... An example of an arrange weekly schedule/workload would have been nice for example.

Anita Blow wrote: »

Think it's important to have current students instill some realism in prospective students. You have to remember that the colleges are businesses and on these open days they can sometimes stray into an overly rosy picture in order to attract customers (students).

I don't think any of the students are trying to be negative, but just trying to tell you guys some of the stuff we wish we had been told or taken into account when we made a decision to go into it.

I think that's a valid point. I've seen some articles pushing that gradmed doctors are better, at least in the short term. There's a suggestion that it might be a better route to becoming a doctor - definitely don't agree with that! Perhaps if the fees were lower, but with the expense and sacrifice involved then this route should never be a first choice!

ilovesmecounty

Celestial12 wrote: »

I think that's a valid point. I've seen some articles pushing that gradmed doctors are better, at least in the short term. There's a suggestion that it might be a better route to becoming a doctor - definitely don't agree with that! Perhaps if the fees were lower, but with the expense and sacrifice involved then this route should never be a first choice!

Funnily enough I think Grad Med is the best (albeit more financially constraining) option. Empathy is a big thing, and I think that often, empathy only comes with life experience. I know I certainly wasn't equipped to be a good people person in my 20s, nor did I understand the enormity of life changing or ending conditions and the impact it has on patients and families. Whereas I'd like to think I'd be a better person to deal with that now.

Celestial12

ilovesmecounty wrote: »

Funnily enough I think Grad Med is the best (albeit more financially constraining) option. Empathy is a big thing, and I think that often, empathy only comes with life experience. I know I certainly wasn't equipped to be a good people person in my 20s, nor did I understand the enormity of life changing or ending conditions and the impact it has on patients and families. Whereas I'd like to think I'd be a better person to deal with that now.

I guess it's different for everyone. There was a recent graduate at the UL open day, and I thought she seemed really obnoxious. She said that on her first intern post, the guy she was placed with was very green and had little experience - she said that he was mid-twenties and this was his first proper job. She was mid to late thirties, and mentioned that she felt like his mum. Started harping on about her previous experiences, how it equipped her for the post etc. Seemed really condescending in her appraisal of him.

He'll be a consultant at her age. I felt like telling her to get off her high horse and reminding her of that.

I don't think I would have been equipped for undergraduate medicine either. I feel that this is the best option to me, and like you feel better prepared now... But some people are ready for it after the LC, so I'm glad we haven't moved to a US system here. AFAIK the majority of medicine courses in Australia are now graduate entry, and it was only introduced in the nineties. Everybody's path is different, but I'd much rather be the whizkid who aces the LC and goes straight into medicine than the person who slugs it out for the long haul!

brendanwalsh

Lot of assholes in undergraduate and graduate medicine is the bottom line. People who think they are the cats pyjamas because they've got in to the course. They'll quickly learn once they start working in the hse that being in a doctor in this country is one of the most soul destroying jobs in the world. Porters get treated better than junior docs. 6 years of college minimum to end up only go for sticking catheters and canulas in.

Celestial12

brendanwalsh wrote: »

Lot of assholes in undergraduate and graduate medicine is the bottom line. People who think they are the cats pyjamas because they've got in to the course. They'll quickly learn once they start working in the hse that being in a doctor in this country is one of the most soul destroying jobs in the world. Porters get treated better than junior docs. 6 years of college minimum to end up only go for sticking catheters and canulas in.

Are you a doctor? Hearing lots of negative things about working for the HSE and being a doctor in this country. Good to be aware of it at this stage I guess!

brendanwalsh

what age are you do you mind me asking? realistically if you want to do hospital medicine you should accept that if you ever want to make it to consultant level the best approach is to go to the usa and do residency there. the training in ireland is horrendous, even at spr level it is substandard. if you still want to become a doctor, then be aware that there is a very large chance you will end up as a gp. if you're happy being a gp then go right ahead. (depending on age) grad medicine students will find it very difficult to become consultants in this country. the sacrifices are horrendous, especially for slightly older grads with commitments. nobody wants to do 24 hour call every 5 nights when they are pushing 40. you will be competing with younger, better trained candidates if you decide to do hospital training in ireland. there's no promise of a job at the end of it. the financial constraint is horrendous. SHO 1 docs are taking home about 500€ per week; if you get a loan, your repayment will likely be 1000 a month or more. so you'll have 1000 quid to play around with to cover rent, bills, living expense, pay for your child's daycare. There are much easier ways of making money in the world. it's indebted slavery. great move by the hse. convince older grads desperate to do medicine to pay 6 figures for it (enslaving themselves to hse for eternity). if they are older grads, with ties to ireland, less likely to emigrate (enslaving themselves to hse for eternity). by the time they realise work and training in this country is appalling, they've too much skin in the game to turn back. (enslaving themselves to hse for eternity)

my advice, do your usmle and go to america if you plan on being a hospital consultant. otherwise your options are GP or pick a different career.

Celestial12

brendanwalsh wrote: »

what age are you do you mind me asking? realistically if you want to do hospital medicine you should accept that if you ever want to make it to consultant level the best approach is to go to the usa and do residency there. the training in ireland is horrendous, even at spr level it is substandard. if you still want to become a doctor, then be aware that there is a very large chance you will end up as a gp. if you're happy being a gp then go right ahead. (depending on age) grad medicine students will find it very difficult to become consultants in this country. the sacrifices are horrendous, especially for slightly older grads with commitments. nobody wants to do 24 hour call every 5 nights when they are pushing 40. you will be competing with younger, better trained candidates if you decide to do hospital training in ireland. there's no promise of a job at the end of it. the financial constraint is horrendous. SHO 1 docs are taking home about 500€ per week; if you get a loan, your repayment will likely be 1000 a month or more. so you'll have 1000 quid to play around with to cover rent, bills, living expense, pay for your child's daycare. There are much easier ways of making money in the world. it's indebted slavery. great move by the hse. convince older grads desperate to do medicine to pay 6 figures for it (enslaving themselves to hse for eternity). if they are older grads, with ties to ireland, less likely to emigrate (enslaving themselves to hse for eternity). by the time they realise work and training in this country is appalling, they've too much skin in the game to turn back. (enslaving themselves to hse for eternity)

my advice, do your usmle and go to america if you plan on being a hospital consultant. otherwise your options are GP or pick a different career.

I'll be 25 next year, so 29 by the time I'm finished. I've heard people as old as 40 going back to do medicine, so I'm not too concerned about age! Not sure what the average age in graduate medicine is. I've heard of people as old as 40 doing it.

I heard that the anaesthesia training scheme here is good though? Not entirely sure what area I want to get into yet, trying to be relatively open minded heading into the course next year - but I think I'll know pretty early on where my interests are. Are working conditions better in the US? Heard the hours there are gruelling too, though the pay and training may be better. I'll probably take the usmle just so that I have options. No point thinking that far ahead though, as there's plenty to do before I get to that point. I'm open to going elsewhere if it ends up being the best option.

Are you planning on leaving Ireland yourself, or do you have too many commitments in Ireland?

ilovesmecounty

There are a-holes in every industry. You can't control how people behave, only how you respond. Yes, grad med students may be older. That doesn't always mean childcare expenses etc. Everyone's personal situation is different and therefore I assume if they've thought long enough about grad med, they've also thought about how it will impact their professional and personal lives. It is not indentured slavery as nobody forces an individual to return to college and pay through the nose for education. It is a choice. One made after checking the costs, the salary scales, the work hours, the career prospects. There is nothing wrong with being a GP. There is nothing wrong with long hours. There is nothing wrong with becoming a consultant in your 40s if it fits you. There is nothing wrong with going overseas if it fits you. Realistic doesn't always have to be negative. I'm coming from an industry where much of the above points also apply. As you train, you will be paid. That is quite unique. Also, if you are a doctor and you don't enjoy it, you can choose to do something else. Which is why I am leaving my profession of over 10 years and choosing to return to education and hopefully become a doctor.

Kirby2k07

Brendanwalsh where are you at in your career right now?

letsdothis

Celestial12 wrote: »

I've already considered the "negatives", so whilst I think the student talks would have definitely benefited people who had little to no knowledge of what the course entailed. I would have preferred to have heard about the actual course structure. How are exams structured, are they mainly essay based, MCQ, short answer questions etc... Are there many assignments to do on top of study hours... An example of an arrange weekly schedule/workload would have been nice for example.

On exam structures in UCD - this varies between modules.
Pre-clinical: most modules exam are either entirely MCQ or a mixture between MCQs and essays or short answers. MCQs at this stage are usually either best of 5 or EMQ. The amount of assignments varies considerably from year to year - they are always tweaking the course based on feedback - e.g. in our GEM2 semester 1 we were overburdened with assignments with little marks, the following year this was reduced drastically. Many modules will be 100% end of semester exam.

Clinical exams, MCQs are often T/F with negative marking. Examples of some of the bigger modules:

Medicine 1 - OSCE + MCQ
Medicine 2 - EMQ + short answer paper + log book assignment
Surgery (over 2 terms) - Short Answer Paper + case write up assignment + MCQ + OSCE

Other forms of assessment in clinical medicine: long case exam, short case exam, viva, presentations, essays, case write ups. So there's a big variety!

Weekly schedule - changes substantially each semester / rotation, some are very heavy and others less so.

I'd say in preclinical to expect about 20-25 hours per week in UCD. Clinical rotations have a huge variety in the schedule - e.g. obs/gynae you are in the hospital from about 8am to 6pm with the whole day scheduled, medicine and surgery have clinical activities during the day and lectures from 4-6pm most days.

Hope that helps - ask or PM if you want more info.

Flange/Flanders

Right, I'm always a bit suspicious when I see these wholly negative posts like brendanwalsh's above. I'm an intern now after grad med and I have to say, I can't understand all this negativity that we hear about working in medicine. I absolutely love it. Don't feel at all overwhelmed by work, don't feel undervalued and financially, paid for absolutely every minute I work (working in medicine at the moment). And before anyone says anything, I'm not working in one of the large urban hospitals. I feel that I'm getting decent training as well. None of my co interns seem particularly unhappy, tho a couple of them are a bit busier than I am. Have to do nights every so often, 12 hours and generally get at least an hours sleep, sometimes up to 3 or 4 and the only bad thing about nights is that your body clock is knocked out of sync for the week! Now I've worked in other industries and I've worked in a few really ****ty jobs so I feel very privilaged to be working as a doctor now. I'm also lucky in that I have had my mind on being a GP for a while (and I've heard from a few GPs that it's not as bad as your hear, they love their jobs and while they're not swimming in money, they're still comfortable).

Pierre_Robin

Flange/Flanders wrote: »

Right, I'm always a bit suspicious when I see these wholly negative posts like brendanwalsh's above. I'm an intern now after grad med and I have to say, I can't understand all this negativity that we hear about working in medicine. I absolutely love it.

You've good reason to be suspicious, it's because Irish medicine isn't some gulag.

I'm not sure why, but I only tend to post on here when I'm post call and a bit dis-inhibited. I've posted here before, but I'm a year 2 SpR in a busy-ish speciality. I still love my job, and am not living in a poor house.

With regards to training, Brendan has a point for some stuff, but a sweeping generalisation that everyone in America is better trained than you is laughable. Similar in England. I've met my equivalents at conferences, etc. and some are very good, but others are training in small units with very little exposure to complex cases etc. Then again, there's plenty of Irish docs who can't tell operate to save their lives let alone patients.

I've found that your training depends a lot on your own ability to seek it out. Consultants are usually much more keen to teach people who are easy to work with, hard-working, and enthusiastic. I know you can argue that you should receive the same training regardless, but life doesn't work that way, nor do other jobs work that way. I realise this is n=1, but I have found my training to be appropriate for my level, and have never been refused something if I've gone and asked.

Most docs will end up abroad at some point for fellowship training, and some people have mixed feelings on that. Ireland is small. If you want to be a specialist, you need a mountain of experience in that area, and sometimes that isn't possible on this small island. No harm to see how things are done somewhere different too.

UCD is a great college. I loved it. You will not be treated differently as a GEM when you become an intern. Consultants will not think you're automatically smarter or more empathetic. Some of you will be, and some of you won't. Some of your undergrad colleagues will surprise you by how great they are as doctors, when you only knew them falling out of Coppers.

Money isn't bad. Not great, but not bad. I won't be calling Peter McVerry any time soon.

I dunno lads. I like my job. If you don't, maybe don't piss on it for everyone else, maybe you should look at doing something else? If an accountant didn't like accountancy, they'd leave and everyone would congratulate them on a smart decision. Only medics stick with a job they hate for so many years.

As I said, I'm post call, take everything I said with a pinch of salt!

brendanwalsh

Pierre_Robin wrote: »

You've good reason to be suspicious, it's because Irish medicine isn't some gulag.

I'm not sure why, but I only tend to post on here when I'm post call and a bit dis-inhibited. I've posted here before, but I'm a year 2 SpR in a busy-ish speciality. I still love my job, and am not living in a poor house.

With regards to training, Brendan has a point for some stuff, but a sweeping generalisation that everyone in America is better trained than you is laughable. Similar in England. I've met my equivalents at conferences, etc. and some are very good, but others are training in small units with very little exposure to complex cases etc. Then again, there's plenty of Irish docs who can't tell operate to save their lives let alone patients.

I've found that your training depends a lot on your own ability to seek it out. Consultants are usually much more keen to teach people who are easy to work with, hard-working, and enthusiastic. I know you can argue that you should receive the same training regardless, but life doesn't work that way, nor do other jobs work that way. I realise this is n=1, but I have found my training to be appropriate for my level, and have never been refused something if I've gone and asked.

Most docs will end up abroad at some point for fellowship training, and some people have mixed feelings on that. Ireland is small. If you want to be a specialist, you need a mountain of experience in that area, and sometimes that isn't possible on this small island. No harm to see how things are done somewhere different too.

UCD is a great college. I loved it. You will not be treated differently as a GEM when you become an intern. Consultants will not think you're automatically smarter or more empathetic. Some of you will be, and some of you won't. Some of your undergrad colleagues will surprise you by how great they are as doctors, when you only knew them falling out of Coppers.

Money isn't bad. Not great, but not bad. I won't be calling Peter McVerry any time soon.

I dunno lads. I like my job. If you don't, maybe don't piss on it for everyone else, maybe you should look at doing something else? If an accountant didn't like accountancy, they'd leave and everyone would congratulate them on a smart decision. Only medics stick with a job they hate for so many years.

As I said, I'm post call, take everything I said with a pinch of salt!

I think you're making a lot of excuses for the training. Nobody should have to seek out training and be sweeter than sweet to just be given an nugget of training. The issue is there is very little formal didactic training, it's very passive and more osmotic in nature.

The other thing not mentioned is the artifical bottle neck at spr level. Plenty of good candidates with exams passed on first attempt have been shunned multiple times for specialist training just because they didn't have the right face or their daddy didn't play rugby for a certain club. In the US and UK it is much more objective in progressing through your career.

There's bad doctors in every country but a bad doctor who has had a very didactic heavy residency under his belt will be much better than a sh*te career reg here.

Money is rubbish compared to us. After 3 years of residency in US you can command a quarter of a million salary. Here you will never make that. You'll be lucky to be paid all your rostered time at that. Everyone knows a department who won't pay any overtime whatsoever (cuh anesthesia being one example)

Being a doctor in this country involves learning also how to be a nurse, a health care assistant, a social worker a phlebotomist etc. Most developed countries have healthcare systems in which the doctor strictly practices medicine. It's a disgrace in this day and age doctors being asked to do bloods canulas catheters etc etc.

letsdothis

brendanwalsh wrote: »

I think you're making a lot of excuses for the training. Nobody should have to seek out training and be sweeter than sweet to just be given an nugget of training. The issue is there is very little formal didactic training, it's very passive and more osmotic in nature.

The other thing not mentioned is the artifical bottle neck at spr level. Plenty of good candidates with exams passed on first attempt have been shunned multiple times for specialist training just because they didn't have the right face or their daddy didn't play rugby for a certain club. In the US and UK it is much more objective in progressing through your career.

There's bad doctors in every country but a bad doctor who has had a very didactic heavy residency under his belt will be much better than a sh*te career reg here.

Money is rubbish compared to us. After 3 years of residency in US you can command a quarter of a million salary. Here you will never make that. You'll be lucky to be paid all your rostered time at that. Everyone knows a department who won't pay any overtime whatsoever (cuh anesthesia being one example)

Being a doctor in this country involves learning also how to be a nurse, a health care assistant, a social worker a phlebotomist etc. Most developed countries have healthcare systems in which the doctor strictly practices medicine. It's a disgrace in this day and age doctors being asked to do bloods canulas catheters etc etc.

Didactic-based teaching seems like a odd way of training a consultant. There's a big drive to move medical education away from this form - many learners don't do well with it, I certainly don't. Is there evidence to support it as a superior form of training?

TBH, much of what you are saying makes me wonder if your objectives in medicine are for prestige and money, making the whole experience so frustrating? Precisely why in my previous post I reiterated that prospective students should've enter medicine for these reasons.

brendanwalsh

letsdothis wrote: »

Didactic-based teaching seems like a odd way of training a consultant. There's a big drive to move medical education away from this form - many learners don't do well with it, I certainly don't. Is there evidence to support it as a superior form of training?

TBH, much of what you are saying makes me wonder if your objectives in medicine are for prestige and money, making the whole experience so frustrating? Precisely why in my previous post I reiterated that prospective students should've enter medicine for these reasons.

Medicine is a job the same as any other. If you hold any ideals about it you are in for a rude awakening, especially if you haven't even started the course.

If you want to help people or save the world you can go to Africa to feed the hungry or become a healthcare assistant and save yourself the cost and sacrifice of a medical degree, and with it the substandard training. If you want to make money medicine isn't the game to be in either. Certainly not in this country.

Didactic training programmes are long established as being the premiere way of training medical consultants. The Americans do it across the board; in fact in America If your hospital is providing adequate training it will be shut down by the acgme and abim. Self directed learning is being pushed at college level, this is strictly to save on teaching costs and to increase capacity of students the colleges can accept.

Flange/Flanders

brendanwalsh wrote: »

Medicine is a job the same as any other. If you hold any ideals about it you are in for a rude awakening, especially if you haven't even started the course.

If you want to help people or save the world you can go to Africa to feed the hungry or become a healthcare assistant and save yourself the cost and sacrifice of a medical degree, and with it the substandard training. If you want to make money medicine isn't the game to be in either. Certainly not in this country.

Didactic training programmes are long established as being the premiere way of training medical consultants. The Americans do it across the board; in fact in America If your hospital is providing adequate training it will be shut down by the acgme and abim. Self directed learning is being pushed at college level, this is strictly to save on teaching costs and to increase capacity of students the colleges can accept.

Substandard training? I know plenty of really good doctors who've trained in Ireland. Also you mention above that there's loads of hospitals that don't pay rostered hours? Where are these hospitals you mention. I haven't heard of them. I've been paid for every minute I've worked with no hassle from HR or consultants (in fact, consultants never question the hours I put in for). Same with any of my friends who work in other hospitals. Some even get rostered overtime. You're posting a lot of statements without backing them up.

ilovesmecounty

I think Brendan you need to reassess your whole career. Life doesn't hand anyone opportunities on a plate. You seek them out. I can only imagine if I happened to be in the position to take on a trainee, an individual like you would be bottom of the list due to your defeatist and negative attitude. I also really wouldn't want you at my bedside or at the bedside of a loved one if you think cannulas, or other 'menial jobs' are beneath you. You genuinely seem very unhappy in your role, which is not good for you. Life is long, and you don't need to be committing to a job you don't like.

brendanwalsh

I suppose it's clear that most of the people posting on this thread are just prospective students. Fair enough. Hope you hold on to your ideals for as long as possible. You should check out some of the NCHD pages on facebook. Performing canulation, catheterisation and ecgs are not something to be performed by a doctor.

Celestial12

I appreciate all of your advice Brendan, heard other people mentioning that hospital training in Ireland isn't ideal - hence the large number of graduates who are going elsewhere. It's a little premature for most of us to be thinking about though. I won't have graduated until 2022 all going well, but before that I need to decide on where I'm going and focus on getting the degree!

What type of doctor are you if you don't mind me asking?

Flange/Flanders

brendanwalsh wrote: »

I suppose it's clear that most of the people posting on this thread are just prospective students. Fair enough. Hope you hold on to your ideals for as long as possible. You should check out some of the NCHD pages on facebook. Performing canulation, catheterisation and ecgs are not something to be performed by a doctor.

I'd say you're popular with nursing staff. listen, lack of transfer of tasks bugs the hell out of me but they're still valuable skills to have. you'd be really disadvantaged as a doctor if you couldn't cannulate. also, you can't be too militant as you really do need the nurses on your side when you're sometimes under pressure at 4 in the morning with your bleep white hot from going. to be honest, medicine doesn't sound like a career that suits you.

Celestial12

Happy New Year everyone!

Don't forget to get your CAO application completed. The deadline for GEM is February 1st, so apply in the next few days if you haven't already. Doesn't take long! Posting my documents to them today, I think I have everything I need...

GrabTheCREAM

Celestial12 wrote: »

Happy New Year everyone!

Don't forget to get your CAO application completed. The deadline for GEM is February 1st, so apply in the next few days if you haven't already. Doesn't take long! Posting my documents to them today, I think I have everything I need...

Which documents do we need to send? I just applied to CAO, filled out choices and gave acer my GAMSAT number

Celestial12

GrabTheCREAM wrote: »

Which documents do we need to send? I just applied to CAO, filled out choices and gave acer my GAMSAT number

I sent them my degree transcripts and a certified copy of my degree cert. I think that's all we need to do? Those in their final year have until July I believe to send those on.

I updated my acer account the other day with my CAO number.

debbysoap

Celestial12 wrote: »

I sent them my degree transcripts and a certified copy of my degree cert. I think that's all we need to do? Those in their final year have until July I believe to send those on.

I updated my acer account the other day with my CAO number.

Happy New Year to you too & thanks for the reminder!

Just wondering if we need to send off Leaving Certificate Results also? Or does that not apply to GEM? I don’t think we need to, but just in case..

ilovesmecounty

Yup in the process of doing so as well. Have some transcripts, have to send for others. I've also added my CAO number to my ACER account. Do we need to fill out the mature application section in the CAO as well?

medennial

ilovesmecounty wrote: »

Yup in the process of doing so as well. Have some transcripts, have to send for others. I've also added my CAO number to my ACER account. Do we need to fill out the mature application section in the CAO as well?

I asked the CAO people that a few months back and they said no. I've copied and pasted the info from their email to me below:

The mature section of the application
automatically appears where the applicant is aged
23 years or more.

As you are applying for Graduate Medicine courses
only you may ignore this section of your
application form. You will be assessed solely on
the basis of your original degree transcripts and
GAMSAT score.

medennial

Celestial12 wrote: »

I sent them my degree transcripts and a certified copy of my degree cert. I think that's all we need to do? Those in their final year have until July I believe to send those on.

I updated my acer account the other day with my CAO number.

Is updating your Acer account just a matter of going onto the Registration section and updating the registration with your CAO number?

For instance, I'm using my results from the September sitting so I went onto my September registration and updated the number there.

Probably a silly question, but better to be safe than sorry!

ilovesmecounty

medennial wrote: »

Is updating your Acer account just a matter of going onto the Registration section and updating the registration with your CAO number?

For instance, I'm using my results from the September sitting so I went onto my September registration and updated the number there.

Probably a silly question, but better to be safe than sorry!

I hope so because that's what I've done. I'm filling out the mature section as I've decided to attempt HPAT as well, just in case the old Gamsat score doesn't improve. My section 3 score is slowly improving but I'm afraid of losing scores in 1 and 2 as I've totally neglected that study. I've handed in my formal notice to quit at work so I need to give myself every possible chance. Sigh. I suppose if it was easy, everyone would be doing it...