What a non democratic parochial clientelistic bonanza is this

Hammered hippie

These elections are a parochial orgy that defy the laws of democracy
It is possible for a political movement to get say 5000 or 6000 or even more votes per constituency, amassing something like 6-8 percent of the popular vote nationwide, having the support of 150000-220000 people.
Yet they would not get any seat or say in the Dáil
That is deeply disturbing
A local joke that manages to get 9 or 10 thousands votes behind her or him with a very local message and agenda will get to be TD and have more influence on the life of all Irish people and indeed also those 150000-220000 people that are refused representation than the political party that got 6-8 percent of popular votes but was never represented because of a faulty, medieval and parochial system of representation
Ehm....the hard facts
9000 people can have someone represent them on a national level and therefore rule over the fate of 150000-220000 people that have been robbed of representation

Is that democracy or is it a form of institutionalized bullying via a local parochial system of representation of the most popular local guys and girls

It is sickening and Ireland needs a complete haul over of its corrupt and outdated 'democratic' system where local clan leaders have rule over large swathes of the population that never will be represented ever.

Hammered hippie

Oh yeah...add to that the rule that when you want to start a national political party you need the endorsement of at least two sitting TD's
How anti-democratic is that....honastly....really...the ruling powers that be have to grant you permission to set out on a pathway that is supposed to be democratic.
Laughable if it wasn't deeply disturbing and pathetic

nice_guy80

I think Irish politics are veering more towards the European model of a large number of smaller parties

and maybe that is not a bad thing

people might have to work together

end of civil war politics

ArmaniJeanss

Hammered hippie wrote: »

These elections are a parochial orgy that defy the laws of democracy
It is possible for a political movement to get say 5000 or 6000 or even more votes per constituency, amassing something like 6-8 percent of the popular vote nationwide, having the support of 150000-220000 people.
Yet they would not get any seat or say in the Dáil
That is deeply disturbing

That's never happened though, so no point in worrying excessively about it.
Parties don't organically grow in such a way that they have a uniform 6/8% across all constituencies.

And if they did ever did then you could argue that if they don't have the basic cop-on to re-concentrate their resources on getting a seatwinning 12-16% in half of the constituencies then they haven't shown the intelligence to merit the seats in the first place.

Our system is still fairer than say the UK where UKIP got a fairly uniform 13% in England but never threatened to win much more than one seat.

Hammered hippie

In a true democracy there is no need for a national politcal party to grow locally before they get up to 6-8 percent (the idea alone...to be able to act on a national political level you have to compete with local politcians....its so silly...it scares away professionals who can act properly on national level and encourages local quacks to have a go at ruining the country)

If an idea or party program is appealing to people they should be able to be heard rather than having to wait for decades until a party has locally put the right popular people in place to win over local politicians that have been smooching and honey smearing the public for decades.
Look when I live in Waterford I am not interested in whether the political party that has my best interests is able to get ahead of local politicians in Clare or elsewhere in the country to get my vote heard. It is preposterous and debilitating
Ireland simply does not have any form of developed national or international democratic politics. Its all just a parochial small town form of locally dominating representatives somehow cooking something together for the rest of us.
Looking at the figures it reveals this shocking truth
158 delegates
on average they get voted in by some 9000 votes per TD
so... 1.422 milion people have voted for the bunch of clowns that rule the rest of them
HOW ON EARTH CAN THAT BE DEMOCRACY.....all the other votes have been laid to rest and the brunt, the majority of people that went to vote have not been heard and are not represented.
Un be lie va ble
Check the figures yourself and weep

Hammered hippie

And the fact that mainstream politics have been divided by civil war politics....of a civial war near 100 years ago....well where do we begin.
It is the saddest most pathetic thing that has ever danced in the light of democracy......pathetic! (falling short of other words to really describe my disgust at this .... masquerade ...this ball of fools!)

nice_guy80

All politics are local

in Athlone the local councillor who made the most noise about the flooding, and actually helped people man the pumps and sand bag barriers got elected.
People remember that sort of stuff.

the sitting FG td McFadden's vote was decimated. FG were so slow to realise the problems on the ground for people.

johnnyskeleton

Hammered hippie wrote: »

158 delegates
on average they get voted in by some 9000 votes per TD
so... 1.422 milion people have voted for the bunch of clowns that rule the rest of them
HOW ON EARTH CAN THAT BE DEMOCRACY.....all the other votes have been laid to rest and the brunt, the majority of people that went to vote have not been heard and are not represented.
Un be lie va ble
Check the figures yourself and weep

Mod note:

OP, 2.15m people voted and it isnt an even 9k votes per TD. Of these, 17 odd percent gave their first pref to a non party so c. 83% of the people who can and did vote voted for the main parties. By the time all the transfers will be worked out, somewhere between 65-80% of the votes will have gone towards the people who become TDs.

So this is democratic - majority rules. Youqr theory that the people who come to power are voted in by a minority of the total population is technically correct but if its suggested that they are there by virtue of a minority of voters, Im afraid you are incorrect.

This thread is getting into rant territory. Ill leave it open because its the day after the election, but please check your facts before posting and try to raise the level of debate.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Hammered hippie wrote: »

These elections are a parochial orgy that defy the laws of democracy
It is possible for a political movement to get say 5000 or 6000 or even more votes per constituency, amassing something like 6-8 percent of the popular vote nationwide, having the support of 150000-220000 people.
Yet they would not get any seat or say in the Dáil
That is deeply disturbing
A local joke that manages to get 9 or 10 thousands votes behind her or him with a very local message and agenda will get to be TD and have more influence on the life of all Irish people and indeed also those 150000-220000 people that are refused representation than the political party that got 6-8 percent of popular votes but was never represented because of a faulty, medieval and parochial system of representation
Ehm....the hard facts
9000 people can have someone represent them on a national level and therefore rule over the fate of 150000-220000 people that have been robbed of representation

Is that democracy or is it a form of institutionalized bullying via a local parochial system of representation of the most popular local guys and girls

It is sickening and Ireland needs a complete haul over of its corrupt and outdated 'democratic' system where local clan leaders have rule over large swathes of the population that never will be represented ever.

The UK is worse. UKIP got 12.7% of the vote and got 1 seat while the SNP got 56 seats off the back of 4.7% of the vote.

At least here there are transfers.

piuswal

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

The UK is worse. UKIP got 12.7% of the vote and got 1 seat while the SNP got 56 seats off the back of 4.7% of the vote.

At least here there are transfers.

Yes, we have a "reasonably" fair system but it could be improved.
It is too much dominated by the parish pump, local clientelism.
We need a system whereby Ministers, in particular, can devote all of their energies on behalf of the state as a whole and not have to worry about local issues.

There are systems which can deal with this problem.

It just needs a wilingness to do so.

Hasschu

My take on it is that "Civil War" politics were over and done with on Easter Sunday 1947. As they say in Kerry "Da pasht is da Pasht, water under da bridge, time to be lookin to the futeshur". I do not think that Dublin and Cork were too far behind in their political/nationalism evolvement. As a matter of fact by the mid fifties there were many people in Ireland that were voicing the opinion that independence was a mistake. The year 1955 was the peak year for emigration (mostly to the UK) and the CIE and the Ferry to Holyhead were the only prosperous companies in Ireland. In small town Ireland the GAA could not get together a football team that is how bad it got.
Then as now the Priests ruled the education system and had great influence on public opinion (abortion?). Our duopoly, tweedle dum and tweedle dee, FF and FG have nothing to do with war since 1947. It has a lot to do with FF having the support of the solid, stolid middle and FG having the support of the same class but the subset that are slightly wealthier and greedier. Genetically there is no difference between the two, they are equeally opportunistic, self serving and short sighted. The beauty of it is we Irish are well practiced in the gross exaggeration of minor differences. Hence we gladly and willingly, in our own minds, bring about major changes by electing one or other of the two parties since 1932. I wish I could say that I expect this to end, unfortunately I will not tell you a lie. The party that bankrupted the country in 2009 makes a comeback in 2016 and is virtually assured of leading a Governing Coalition after the next election. Alas alanna, only in Ireland, we are indeed an exceptional people.