New puppy biting/mouthing: any tips?

volchitsa

Hi, we're dog-newbies who've just acquired a mixed breed but mostly short-haired collie for my 13 year old son. The idea is that she's his responsibility but obviously a lot of it is down to us all the same. She's nearly 10 weeks now.

So here's the sort of thing we're not sure of : being a pup she gets over excited and jumps and grabs hands, trouserlegs etc. And her leash, which she'd love to be thowner of apparently.

She doesnt hurt but we need to get control of this, and without brutalizing her. She's a very sweet happy little thing, so we dont want to ruin her by getting it wrong through inexperience.

So just to give an idea of where she, and we, are at : When she's calm, if you tell her to sit she'll always sit, she usually comes to her name, or at least reacts to it, will look sorry when she gets scolded. Not really housetrained yet but we're sort of getting there, etc.

So my question is about the mouthing issue : she does it when she's excited, and ignoring her doesn't seem to be enough, she'll stop for a second, then as soon as the play starts again, or even if we just stop ignoring her, she'll start jumping and mouthing again immediately.

She's pretty calm in the house, but she's got her own toys so that helps, but this is mostly an excitement issue, and mostly outside in the garden (she hasnt had her second injection yet so cant go out much yet).

Are we just expecting too much of her for now? My son wants to teach her to play fetch, but maybe it's just too exciting for her? We can see that she's definitely very high energy (which is fine for us, medium term, we're planning to go running with her etc, but she has to learn to follow on the leash first - much as she loves running, she'd trip up the leash-holder at the moment!)

I feel we havent yet worked out what are reasonable expectations of her and where maybe we need to be stricter with her. and how to do that - eg do we just stand up and ignore her, and if so, for how long? does she just have to sit (which she immediately does - until we stop ignoring her that is, whereupon she starts again!) or does she have to do something to "apologize", eg when she sits, it's usually behind tne person ignoring her, so its hard to see this unless you turn and look at her, so maybe in her mind that's become part of the game?

Or should we walk out of the garden and leave her? I'm loathe to do that, because we want her not to mind staying in the garden in her own when she's bigger, so I dont like using it as punishment.

Maybe a systematic length of time ignoring her? But she seems such a birdbrain (:)), how long can she even remember what she's been scolded for?

sorry for the long post - I have lots of other questions that I cant exact.y work out from books/internet sites etc!

VonVix

What I'd do is yelp (in a high pitched way) give her an appropriate toy to chew on and leave her to it. You could also yelp and leave the room, so she knows play time stops when she bites, if you enter the room again and she starts grabbing you, leave again for another 15-20 seconds or so, keeping in mind puppies have a VERY short attention span, so leaving her for an excessive amount of time won't have a useful impact. Also, be sure to socialise her with other puppies or calm/friendly adult dogs, they can be the best teachers when it comes to playbitey behaviour, they can communicate that it hurts a lot better than we can.

Aside from leaving the room, another method (one you may be doing) is just stopping still, don't say a word, cross your arms and make NO eye contact, basically if she bites, she flips your 'off' switch and nothing happens. If she keeps going at it despite doing this multiple times (you will have to do it a few times before she begins to realise what happens, BUT BE CONSISTENT! Don't tell her off one time, then flip your off switch the next, then tell her off the third time), if after all that she still tries to chew on it, it mightn't be so much that she wants you to play, but rather a "my teeth are annoying me and you make them feel better" moment, that's when you offer a chew toy instead.

At 10 weeks her mouthing now is more of her exploring the world, once she hits around 4 months this mouthing can turn into chewing or harder biting, but that's largely because their teeth hurt! Be sure to have lots of safe, size appropriate chew toys of various textures, I'm a big fan of Kong toys and Nylabones, as puppies get bored of chewing the same thing after a while, that's usually when they move on to something you DON'T want them to chew/bite, like your shoes or the leg of a chair.

Being a herding breed, nipping/mouthing is very common and something not to be completely horrified by, it's part of their development. They DO grow out of it, it's just a matter of consistency on the humans part (every human in the household, not just a select one or two!) pretty much every puppy I have had has been very mouthy at some point or another and all my dogs are herding breeds of some description. My 9 month old was never a bitey puppy, however now he is going through a bit of a mouthy stage.

Hopefully this all makes sense, I haven't had breakfast yet!

peasant

All of the above and one more important thing: patience

It will get better, she will stop eventually, but it will take time.
Don't expect immediate results, wear your scratched hands with pride:D

ShaShaBear

Our collie boy was SOOOOOOOOOO mouthy when he was a pup, 16 weeks old when we adopted him.
Fostered a 2yr old Saluki bitch who taught him manners within an hour!

muddypaws

Look up clicker training, and try and teach her an alternative behaviour. I took on a 7 month old retriever/husky pup in September, his family couldn't cope with him, constantly jumping up, nipping etc. He learnt very quickly that if he sat when he wanted attention he got a treat and cuddles. Teaching a dog to sit to greet people is a really good skill for them, so that when they are out and about, there is no danger of them knocking a child or vulnerable adult over, or even just annoy people with muddy paws and clean clothes.

The main problem with teaching a dog not to jump, especially a cute pup, is that other people don't listen to you, they allow the dog to jump up and make a fuss, because its sooooooooooo cute. So it takes a lot of work within your family to teach the dog that sitting is what is needed for everybody, not just those within the home.

I can't see that anyone has pointed out the API rules to you - you have to post photos

volchitsa

That's great, VonVix, thanks for the feedback. The length of time the "sanction" should last was definitely the big unknown for us, and you've confirmed my suspicion that her attention span is not long enough to require a proper "time-out" sanction yet.

Also we'll definitely start keeping alternative toys actually to hand when she does it, that's something we need to make an effort on.

I've told the other members of the household what you've just said and we'll see how it goes. We know it's something of a long term teaching action, not one that can just be cured, but her owner in particular finds it hard to take (as I say, he's only 13 himself) so I need to be sure we're getting the approach right, even if it doesn't work immediately.

volchitsa

muddypaws wrote: »

Look up clicker training, and try and teach her an alternative behaviour. I took on a 7 month old retriever/husky pup in September, his family couldn't cope with him, constantly jumping up, nipping etc. He learnt very quickly that if he sat when he wanted attention he got a treat and cuddles. Teaching a dog to sit to greet people is a really good skill for them, so that when they are out and about, there is no danger of them knocking a child or vulnerable adult over, or even just annoy people with muddy paws and clean clothes.

The main problem with teaching a dog not to jump, especially a cute pup, is that other people don't listen to you, they allow the dog to jump up and make a fuss, because its sooooooooooo cute. So it takes a lot of work within your family to teach the dog that sitting is what is needed for everybody, not just those within the home.

I can't see that anyone has pointed out the API rules to you - you have to post photos

Will do! As soon as I get a chance (it's like having a baby in the house again, just busy with her constantly!! But in a nice way! )

VonVix

From experience kids sometimes are far better trainers than adults, sorry! :P Just be sure to decide 100% what your plan of action is, so your puppy doesn't get mixed messages from everyone.

Are you in the Dublin area, Volchitsa?

volchitsa

VonVix wrote: »

From experience kids sometimes are far better trainers than adults, sorry! :P Just be sure to decide 100% what your plan of action is, so your puppy doesn't get mixed messages from everyone.

Are you in the Dublin area, Volchitsa?

Not in the RoI at all unfortunately (in terms of getting handy tips and pointers this board I mean, not generally!). But we have a puppy class near here that she can hopefully go to once she has had her second injection. I just want to be sure she doesn't develop any avoidable bad habits between now and then!

VonVix

Ah grand.

Also, training is FUN! And with a Collie type you have a dog there who wants to work with you, not against you. When you start seeing your little puppy's mind begin to work and understand, it's really exciting.

Youtube is an excellent resource to teach your puppy new things, it's more than just "tricks" but helps build lines of communication between dog and owner, get your son involved! When I started teaching my dogs things for the very first time, I became addicted.
Here's two Youtubers worth checking out who I think would be both pretty kid and adult friendly, the explanations for things aren't too technical term heavy. I'd also highly recommend you check them out too. You might find some good videos on puppy biting as well.

https://www.youtube.com/user/zakgeorge21
https://www.youtube.com/user/kikopup

volchitsa

Some great replies there, thanks everyone.
Ive given the YouTube addresses to my son and will take a look myself sometime too.

aonb

OP sounds like you have a pretty good attitude to your puppy - which is really so important for the bonding and future personality of your dog.

One thing, remember at 10 weeks she REALLY is a baby. Having her sitting on command already is a good sign of her intelligence! Dont expect too much of her, or you will get frustrated, and that will translate to the puppy.
LOTS of games to distract her when she is being nippy/biting. I used to have a couple of little toys stuck in my pocket when i was at home, and the minute any mouthing started, Id whip out a little stuffed (dog safe) toy, or a sock tied into a knot, and throw it or shake it about - just as a distraction.

Yelp or squeak when she mouths you - she'll learn quickly that shes hurting you - and will stop. (Even my cat stops biting/scratching when I do this )

Lots of play/games/distraction/running around after balls/tug-of-war until she can go outside when vaccinated. She will very quickly get used to her leash - that could be your sons 'job' - getting her used to the leash in the garden for a few minutes at a time. He could start teaching her 'heel' and stop/starting on command etc. Lucky boy to have a new companion/friend to bond with

volchitsa

aonb wrote: »

OP sounds like you have a pretty good attitude to your puppy - which is really so important for the bonding and future personality of your dog.

One thing, remember at 10 weeks she REALLY is a baby. Having her sitting on command already is a good sign of her intelligence! Dont expect too much of her, or you will get frustrated, and that will translate to the puppy.
LOTS of games to distract her when she is being nippy/biting. I used to have a couple of little toys stuck in my pocket when i was at home, and the minute any mouthing started, Id whip out a little stuffed (dog safe) toy, or a sock tied into a knot, and throw it or shake it about - just as a distraction.

Yelp or squeak when she mouths you - she'll learn quickly that shes hurting you - and will stop. (Even my cat stops biting/scratching when I do this )

Lots of play/games/distraction/running around after balls/tug-of-war until she can go outside when vaccinated. She will very quickly get used to her leash - that could be your sons 'job' - getting her used to the leash in the garden for a few minutes at a time. He could start teaching her 'heel' and stop/starting on command etc. Lucky boy to have a new companion/friend to bond with

Yep, will definitely try the distraction techniques more, that's the sort of thing we don't really know ourselves yet, i.e. whether it's too important an issue to "just" use distraction or whether, seeing as it's an unavoidable phase, it's actually useful to have alternative ways to stop it at a given time and that don't mean that she's constantly in the doghouse (pun intended!).

I get the impression this forum is going to be a godsend in that respect. Everyone's replies have been very helpful, and I've already made use of this forum the other day when we had to unexpectedly leave her alone for three hours : we've been working on it, but hadn't intended to have to leave her for another week or 2 yet, by which time we hope to be able to leave her in the garden or possibly in her crate depending on the weather and how the crate training goes.

Anyway I found a thread which had some great ideas about stuffing kongs and things. She didn't manage to get much out of the Kong in the time she was alone, but she pretty much emptied a little plastic beaker with some peanut butter and apple pieces mixed in, and it all seems to have done the job in keeping her happy, which was the main thing!

Thanks again. I'm sure you'll be hearing more requests for help from me soon.

aonb

Its all a learning curve OP, and kindness, patience, gentleness will really pay off.
Frozen kongs or frozen treats are great - does she like yogurt? I put a spoon of probiotic natural yogourt in a beaker, put a banana slice or two in, a bit of kibble, and freeze that. Frozen peanut butter lasts a bit longer in a kong - good for licking.
Its good to be conscious of making her time on her own home alone as positive an experience as possible. Seperation anxiety is a nightmare. My anxious-ish dog LOVES when I go out because he knows he gets his fav treat - he jumps up on his armchair when he sees me putting my coat on, and he gets his chicken breast chew :P I leave the radio on always when going out, so theres a bit of 'noise' too.

volchitsa

I typed out a reply to this last night only for the battery to run out just as I was almost finished.

No matter, I just wanted to say that we've had some great tips, and most of all a good deal of reassurance that we're unlikely to unwittingly create a major issue later, which afaiac was the big question (though TBH my son finds the nipping itself to be very off putting, I think he's a little afraid of her when she goes crazy, as she does in the mornings for example).

He takes her out to the garden first thing and she runs around and nips like crazy when she first gets outside. And taking her back inside is worse! My son called me down this morning because he couldn't get his breakfast eaten!

But I can see that it really is only overexcitement, and as my o/h was saying (we were discussing your comments here) we saw both her parents several times and they're both young (both only about 12-18 months iirc) and both very sociable and keen on being petted by strangers such as ourselves.

So there's no reason to think she'll be a cross dog by nature, and in fact we've come to the rather reassuring conclusion that the rest of her upbringing will probably be more important in deciding how well she copes with stresses and thus her tendency to snap than this "puppy" behaviour which will almost certainly pass.

So now we just have help her official owner cope with her nipping him. But for example she's settled down perfectly now and is sleeping in her crate beside me.

We can adapt the schedule a bit. I'm not sure what's best.

When he takes her out in the morning, given that nobody has had breakfast at that point, and she apparently needs to eat after us (dogs are a lot more complicated than cats - sigh!) would it be better for her to stay outside alone for 10 mins while he eats, then she could come in and eat, and at some point before he goes to school he could take her back out and throw a ball for her and stuff?

And then leave her outside when he goes off to school (that's sort of what we did this morning, he took her back out after her breakfast, played, then went off to school. I heard her whining a little as he went out the gate but then she was ok) and I'll take her back in after 15-20 minutes?

Assuming he spends the same time playing, the result of that first plan would be she'd be inside for longer in the morning and have less time outside alone.

Or - 2nd option - should he take her out, and then leave her out alone while he goes in to eat and then he can go back out to play with her, so that she eats a bit later but has had all her mad running about done in one go before breakfast? That way he'd bring her back in last thing before he goes to school and she'd be eating when he left. Might be better? But I suspect she'll be outside on her own for longer. And wouldn't yet have eaten. But maybe that's not a bad thing?

Or any other suggestions?

She doesn't actually run around nearly as much as soon as she's on her own outside anyway, it's when somebody's there that she wants to play. But she seems happy enough and she does still play. Just less. :rolleyes: it should still calm her down though, shouldn't it?

I'm working from home at the moment but at other times I'll be out at least three days a week, but I do also have work to do, so need to find some sort of rhythm to when I take her out etc.

DBB

Why does she need to eat after you? Is that something you've been told, or is it just a habit the puppy has herself?
If it's the former, you can completely ignore that advice, and it'd probably be a good idea to ignore all advice from the same source! It is allied to the very outdated and disproven ideology that dogs must be "shown their place in the pack". Complete nonsense
So, if this is why you're trying to manipulate when you eat vs when she eats, worry not! Feed her whenever is convenient! Just be aware that she shouldn't do anything too hectic with a full tummy

volchitsa

DBB wrote: »

Why does she need to eat after you? Is that something you've been told, or is it just a habit the puppy has herself?
If it's the former, you can completely ignore that advice, and it'd probably be a good idea to ignore all advice from the same source! It is allied to the very outdated and disproven ideology that dogs must be "shown their place in the pack". Complete nonsense
So, if this is why you're trying to manipulate when you eat vs when she eats, worry not! Feed her whenever is convenient! Just be aware that she shouldn't do anything too hectic with a full tummy

Yeah thats also what it says in the little health booklet we got at the vets (when she got microchipped and got her first vaccination, it's obviously something the vet gets given to him I guess by food or animal pharmaceutical companies) but I'd also seen it on the internet, so I thought it was an absolute rule. And yes, it was about the dog thinking they eat first and that you eat what's left. But it seems pretty widespread.

volchitsa

So ok, I can be a bit less strict about mealtimes, which will make things easier (for ex. this lunchtime my o/h was coming home at midday but was late, so I was making her wait past her usual time, which does seem silly when you think of it. Regular mealtimes are useful things too, IMO.

muddypaws

volchitsa wrote: »

Yeah thats also what it says in the little health booklet we got at the vets (when she got microchipped and got her first vaccination, it's obviously something the vet gets given to him I guess by food or animal pharmaceutical companies) but I'd also seen it on the internet, so I thought it was an absolute rule. And yes, it was about the dog thinking they eat first and that you eat what's left. But it seems pretty widespread.

Oh no, a vet is giving out that information?

Anybody who relies on dogs for their living, will always look after their dog first, which can mean feeding them before they eat their own dinner etc. Living with a dog is a partnership, of course there has to be rules and boundaries, as in any relationship, but one that is based on trust tends to work better than any ruled by force Our dogs know that we are not dogs, so we don't need to act like one in our relationship with our pets.

Choc Chip

This might not suit you at all volchitsa, but I tend to feed with kongs and activity balls.... or stuff it into cardboard tubes or boxes - anything I can find to make mealtimes more interesting. I also scrapped regular mealtimes and feed my dog when I'm going out, or put her food in the car, or put it down when the doorbell rings, or give it to her as part of training - I figure if she's getting food I might as well work on her training or tie it to something that I want her to think of as pleasurable.

I was a little bit worried about the lack of structure in her day but a behaviourist at a class I was attending said that flexible routines can be good for some dogs as their days are different and so it lessens the risk of them becoming upset at an upheaval in a strict daily routine at holidays/ school breaks etc. I'm paraphrasing her words here so forgive any innaccuracies!

Cherry Blossom

Set meal times are important in establishing a routine especially in the early days of house training. If a pup eats at a certain time every day they will also poop at a certain time of day. I found routine crucial with both my dogs for the first few weeks until they started asking to be taken out to toilet.

Choc Chip

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Set meal times are important in establishing a routine especially in the early days of house training. If a pup eats at a certain time every day they will also poop at a certain time of day. I found routine crucial with both my dogs for the first few weeks until they started asking to be taken out to toilet.

I'd accept that reasoning for a pup - I'd forgotten about housetraining! Our dog was already housetrained when we got her so we weren't as concerned about needing to anticipate when she had to go out.

VonVix

volchitsa wrote: »

Yeah thats also what it says in the little health booklet we got at the vets (when she got microchipped and got her first vaccination, it's obviously something the vet gets given to him I guess by food or animal pharmaceutical companies) but I'd also seen it on the internet, so I thought it was an absolute rule. And yes, it was about the dog thinking they eat first and that you eat what's left. But it seems pretty widespread.

Ack! The problem with the internet and dog training is that one half can be very old school, "this is what I learnt growing up therefore it must be true" based and the other half can have proper modern, science based information. It can be very hard to distinguish between the two if you're new to it all.

Ultimately you need to keep in mind that your tiny fuzzball of a puppy is NOT trying to 'one up' you in the household, they know you're not a dog, puppies/dogs are opportunists and are impulsive, they do what benefits them in the moment, they do not think about long term consequences by the decisions they make. They very much live in the here and now.

I'm pretty proud that this forum is largely made up of educated individuals when it comes to doggie behaviour, so we shouldn't lead you too far astray.

volchitsa

VonVix wrote: »

Ack! The problem with the internet and dog training is that one half can be very old school, "this is what I learnt growing up therefore it must be true" based and the other half can have proper modern, science based information. It can be very hard to distinguish between the two if you're new to it all.

Ultimately you need to keep in mind that your tiny fuzzball of a puppy is NOT trying to 'one up' you in the household, they know you're not a dog, puppies/dogs are opportunists and are impulsive, they do what benefits them in the moment, they do not think about long term consequences by the decisions they make. They very much live in the here and now.

I'm pretty proud that this forum is largely made up of educated individuals when it comes to doggie behaviour, so we shouldn't lead you too far astray.

Not such a tiny fuzz ball, she was over 5.5kg when the vet weighed her last week, and she's got visibly taller and more "dog"-like since we got her! But yes, still a puppy in behavioral terms definitely.

I'm also keeping in mind that much of that very general Internet advice is for all breeds of dogs, including the more naturally dominant breeds, so that while she's shown plenty of signs of not being a pushover, she's still basically a sheepdog when it comes down to it, and not a Shiba Inu or a Malamute etc.

So even if sheepdog intelligence means we need to be careful,about herding and things, she's still basically going to be a dog that wants a close relationship with humans, so she should be pretty amenable to doing things that make her humans happy.

Btw, if she's allowed to snooze on somebody's knee when she's still small, does that mean she's likely to want to climb onto knees when she's too big or will she become more independent as she matures anyway?

(She sleeps downstairs in the living room at night, and has been grand apart from some crying, literally once each night for the first two nights and nothing since, except the odd whine just when we leave the room and she's on her own with the lights off, so there's no question of her only sleeping on our beds or anything. So this is like 8-10pm when we're watching TV and that (and to be entirely honest, I'm as bad as my son for wanting to have her, I love having her on my knee - old "cat" habit I guess!))

aonb

My dogs sit on my knee when they feel like a bit of heat/cuddle/company, but not very often anymore. When they were puppies they used to lie on us all the time, so think thats a puppy thing - company/bonding/security/heat etc

I feed when it suits me - but if it gets too late past usual times, I get lots of complaints! We usually feed the animals, and eat at the same time ourselves. How could it possibly matter to a dog whether he is fed before or after his humans - from a domination point of view! Besides I have to feed the dogs just before I sit down, then they sit on our feet and look at us pleading and sighing as they die of hunger while we refuse to give them anything!!! They do get to lick the scraped plates though :P

volchitsa

Thanks for all that.

I've noticed when she gets possessive over the sofa cover it may be because she wants to sleep. I'm only speculating - she's never slept on it, but it's very soft and furry, and both times she did that, when I put her in her own bed she lay down and slept immediately, so I'm guessing that it's like a baby who gets bad tempered when overtired and doesn't know what's wrong with them.

She sleeps in the living room so early evening with the TV on and people around may be disturbing her ideal sleep cycle a bit. I'm assuming (hoping) that doesn't matter as she can sleep during the day when there's only me around (like now, she's sound out) and anyway as she gets older it won't matter as she starts to need less sleep.

Though, thinking about this - if it does matter we could put her crate in the hallway, where she already likes to lie on schoolbags when she can!

volchitsa

Another question : what age is it reasonable to lock her in her crate overnight without her peeing in it? At the moment at nighttime she's blocked in a space bigger than a crate but she'll soon be able to jump out of that space.

We leave her crate open and she seems not to pee in it, some nights (when we took her out very late to the garden) she's been dry next morning, but 5 hours seems to be the height of it. So if I start locking her in her crate will she pee in the crate, which is a problem for various reasons, including cleaning it (tiles are easy to clean, a cushion not so much!) or will she hold in for longer? She's still only 10 weeks and a few days old. And house training is only going middlingly along. which is ok except for wanting to take her places and this crate business.