I wonder when did irish people start using baby formula

Milly33

Ahhh thanks evilwin.... Tis an interesting one now i must say

Keane2baMused

Milly33 wrote: »

You said it the word "Artificial" surely something that comes natural is much better no..

What's your point here?

I don't think anyone has stated otherwise.

Neyite

Milly33 wrote: »

You said it the word "Artificial" surely something that comes natural is much better no..

It's a different era. Have you seen Call the Midwife? Pretty good at portraying the 50's & 60's in the UK. New inventions like the washing machine and fridge in the home, hell, even indoor plumbing for some was new and revolutionary. Convenience foods were becoming popular, so formula was probably viewed as the ultimate convenience food.

Doctors and nurses pushed it as a better alternative to breast milk. Scientifically proven, heavily advertised. So as a brand new mum, wanting to give your baby the very best, you'd defer to the knowledge of your doctor or nurse or mum when they insisted that formula was far superior to breast milk.

If you look at developing countries now, formula countries are still using the same..eh.. formula. Getting medics on the ground to promote formula as a better source of nutrition to women. Heavy advertising. Giving out free formula to new mothers. We don't see that kind of advertising campaign here because our government have banned it.

Whispered

I had a very similar attitude to meeeh going in to have my baby. I had a very easy pregnancy and figured breast feeding is so natural, that'll be easy too.

Well it didn't work that way and I needed more support than was available to me. I asked for that support in the hospital and was denied it. (When you have a midwife tell you you're "starving your baby" but have to wait two days for a lactation consultant you feel a lot of pressure to supplement). So there's my previous assumption shown the door. More real life support, rather than pamphlets, is needed and every midwife needs to be on board. One midwife saying something at a particularly low point can change your whole attitude. Funnily, the midwife who pushed me to supplement with a bottle was From a culture where breastfeeding is the norm.

If I had another, I think I'd feel very guilty about breastfeeding. Like I was doing more for the new baby than I did for my first.

meeeeh

Keane2baMused wrote: »

What's your point here?

I don't think anyone has stated otherwise.

I think what Milly meant that something that is not processed so much must be better than formula. Which is perfectly reasonable interpretation if you don't take into account human milk is different to cow milk.

But for older kids I have yet to find any health professional that would suggest formula over cow milk for kids that don't have allergies or other problems.

Keane2baMused

meeeeh wrote: »

I think what Milly meant that something that is not processed so much must be better than formula. Which is perfectly reasonable interpretation if you don't take into account human milk is different to cow milk.

But for older kids I have yet to find any health professional that would suggest formula over cow milk for kids that don't have allergies or other problems.

I took it to mean breast milk / formula is nutrionally better. Which as I said nobody would dispute.

meeeeh

Whispered wrote: »

I had a very similar attitude to meeeh going in to have my baby. I had a very easy pregnancy and figured breast feeding is so natural, that'll be easy too.

Well it didn't work that way and I needed more support than was available to me. I asked for that support in the hospital and was denied it. (When you have a midwife tell you you're "starving your baby" but have to wait two days for a lactation consultant you feel a lot of pressure to supplement). So there's my previous assumption shown the door. More real life support, rather than pamphlets, is needed and every midwife needs to be on board. One midwife saying something at a particularly low point can change your whole attitude. Funnily, the midwife who pushed me to supplement with a bottle was From a culture where breastfeeding is the norm.

If I had another, I think I'd feel very guilty about breastfeeding. Like I was doing more for the new baby than I did for my first.

I think the attitude of health professionals should definitely change. They often even lack knowledge and because a lot of them are under pressure or don't believe in breastfeeding you are left a bit on your own. But you don't need new people just people with better knowledge. My public nurse when I had second child was also lactation consultant. Any issues were quickly resolved. First child was a lot more hard work but at the same time nobody pushed formula, I just think first month, Sox weeks would be probably a lot less painful if I got a bit more information. At least I could avoid mastitis.

But that is another thing people are wrong about. At the beginning breastfeeding isn't this lovely comfortable thing, it's bloody painful for a lot of us. However nobody also tells you that it becomes very easy later on (until you decide to stop, which is uncomfortable again). I am the last person who would be described as sentimental but breastfeeding when it works is one of the most beautiful, tender connections you can have with your child. Even if you forget about scientific actual benefits it's just a lovely cosy experience - again when it works.

112togo

My mother gave all of us (bar me) cows milk from day 1 - we now range in age from mid-30s to mid 50s, so she would have started this in the early 1960s. The only reason I got formula instead of cows milk was because there was a brucellosis scare at the time I was born. We're all hale and hearty, with no allergies, eczema or other sensitivities. Two of my sisters breast fed their kids and my mother was spectacularly unsupportive, to the point of being critical of them. I suspect she felt that they were judging her for not having breastfed, which is why she got defensive.

Milly33

Not you read it wrong Keane2baMused.. Just a wondering one...

IvyTheTerrible

Well I wasn't in Ireland for my baby, so I only know from hearing other people's experiences that while it is easier than it was to breastfeed in public etc. However, I WAS shocked that when family came to visit me, they thought I shouldn't breastfeed in the living room when there were visitors, that it would be "better" to do it in the bedroom. And this was from my sister, who it in her 30s. She is "grossed out" (her words) by the idea of breastfeeding.
So while anecdotal, those attitudes DO exist. People mightn't say them out loud very often, that's all.

Milly33

really by your own family.. Odd.. I get maybe sometimes in front of men they would feel uncomfortable but then But ladies normally get it, or I would hope they do... Haha we used to decorate my sister when she breast feed as she wasn't able to move...

sullivlo

Did my PhD in breast milk so can answer any questions.

Based on the questions already asked...

Obviously, breast is best. However, in certain circumstances it's not possible. Nobody should be made feel bad about their breastfeeding or lack of. I was never breast fed. Didn't do me any harm.

Breast milk changes composition with respect to time. The first milk - colostrum - is practically yellow it has that many nutrients in it. It contains lots of lactoferrin (iron binding), immunoglobulins (immune boosting) and higher levels of lactose. As time goes on, levels of immunoglobulins and lactoferrin decrease and levels of alpha lactalbumin increase.

Milk is separated into whey and casein. Casein makes cheese. The composition of whey varies between humans and cows. Cows milk contains beta lactoglobulin. Which is not contained in human milk. Therefore some humans have issues digesting it. So predigested milk formula are available.

Formula is updated so frequently to match the composition of human milk. As more research is done, the formula is updated.

Tastes gross though (mind you, human milk ain't that tasty either!!)

Milly33

See now there we go..Thank you...

So as such you could give a a baby cows milk and they may not react to it or you could not..Is this correct!

I understand of course like why would you give something to your child knowing that it may react to them... But lets say if you do breastfeed or pump for the first few months, and then use reg milk the chances of damage damage would be less. In such they would react or they wouldn't react.

Sorry for the twenty questions just curios...

Tasted both think it kinda taste like soya milk

seamus

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

Well I wasn't in Ireland for my baby, so I only know from hearing other people's experiences that while it is easier than it was to breastfeed in public etc. However, I WAS shocked that when family came to visit me, they thought I shouldn't breastfeed in the living room when there were visitors, that it would be "better" to do it in the bedroom. And this was from my sister, who it in her 30s. She is "grossed out" (her words) by the idea of breastfeeding.
So while anecdotal, those attitudes DO exist. People mightn't say them out loud very often, that's all.

Indeed they do. My mother in law breastfed all her children, so was super supportive of my wife doing it; I'm not sure if she would have been able to stick with it without her mother.

Her sister though, a polar opposite. Both her girls said they wanted to breastfeed, and she tutted and complained from the start. It's "disgusting", "only knackers do it", etc etc. Completely unsupportive, almost trying to pull the baby away and give it a bottle when her daughters were struggling.

I do think there's a small amount of catholic prudeness comes into play in Ireland too, mothers afraid to even breastfeed in front of other family members, and more senior family members thinking that it's inappropriate to be exposing oneself when there's an alternative.
When it comes to matters of the body, Irish people are still very sheltered repressed about it, even if the actual religious belief is gone.

John Mason

I am currently bf my 22 month old. Neither myself or my husband were bf. I had his mother phoning him everyday telling him to give the baby formula at night so he would sleep through (baby was 2 weeks old).

then I had my mother telling me to give him water at night so he would sleep through (he was 3 weeks old).

Than I had the "oh, he is wasting away"; "you need to give him formula" comments. The worse was when he was crying to be fed but grandparents wouldn't give him back because "he had some milk an hour before, he wasn't hungry".

When he was 2 weeks old, I found a PHN run bf group in my local clinic. It was amazing, they told me I was doing a great and to keep going. It was the best thing.

I struggled at the start, I cried, he cried but as soon as I got the rights supports everything became easier. I made so many friends at that group, our toddlers still meet up regularly.

It makes me so angry when I hear about people giving up after 2-3 day or the infamous 3 week/6 week growth spurts. If there were proper supports/service may be so many more people would be able to bf.

There are so many benefits to bf and no just for the baby but for the mother also.

I am in my 40's and I don't really give a **** what anyone thinks of me and I will breastfeed wherever and whenever my child needs to but my heart goes out to the younger mothers I have met on my journey who are terrified to feed in public. My mother hates me feeding in public and is always trying to drag my son off me.

What is wrong with our society that the most natural thing in the world is considered gross. My friend who had a baby at the same time as me, had to leave the room if I was feeding. She asked me not to do it in front of her, I told her to cop on and I would never ask her to bottle feed her baby in a different room

sullivlo

Milly33 wrote: »

See now there we go..Thank you...

So as such you could give a a baby cows milk and they may not react to it or you could not..Is this correct!

I understand of course like why would you give something to your child knowing that it may react to them... But lets say if you do breastfeed or pump for the first few months, and then use reg milk the chances of damage damage would be less. In such they would react or they wouldn't react.

Sorry for the twenty questions just curios...

Tasted both think it kinda taste like soya milk

Well yes, in theory you could give a baby cows milk. But it would need to drink a hell of a lot more milk to get the nutrients that it needs. Human milk is unique in that it changes its composition to meet the needs of the baby. Some studies have shown that if a baby has a cold, it's saliva can send signals through the nipples that more antiviral/antibacterial proteins are needed and they're produced. It's fascinating really.

Damage wouldn't happen, per se. I'll nerd it up here so apologies. Beta-lactoglobulin has a molecular weight of 18kDa, however at the pH of milk, it is present in dimeric form. This means that it's 36kDa. If you can imagine proteins to be little balls, like peas, but all different sizes. When you're straining peas through a collander to drain them, they don't go through the holes, but some of the smaller ones might. Babies intestines are the exact same - they open up to let the proteins go in. B-LG isn't sufficiently digested in the stomach because its structure makes it fairly resistant to the enzymes in the stomach. This means that when it gets into the intestines, it's still massive. Whereas all of the other proteins have been partially digested. Therefore those proteins get in through the intestines and provide the essential nutrients for growth and development, whereas the B-LG doesn't. So it essentially comes out the other end undigested. If babies have the runs a lot, it can indicate an inability to digest B-LG, therefore a pre-hydrolysed formula can be reccomended. So whilst no structural damage will occur, baby won't thrive.

BF/pump for as long as you want or as long as you can. But formula is a very capable replacement for it. As babies get older, they start to get calories from other foods - solids are introduced and proper meals, so babies rely less on milk for nutrition. So THEN it's okay to give just regular milk, but until then, formula is required for nutrients and stuff.

kylith

amdublin wrote: »

Someone in work tried tell me that in the 70s and 80's it was seen as a status symbol/sign that you were rich if you bottle fed.

As someone who was bottle fed, but without a penny to our name, I begged to differ.

Any thoughts?
Is this true?? Or an urban myth??

It's fairly true. The fact you were bottle fed could have been face saving/not letting on how poor ye were. Or your parents could have made the decision to go with the bottle because your mum couldn't breast feed, or they might have honestly believed that it was the best thing to do.

Formula has been going here since the 40s or so: my grandmother was under pressure from her peers to bottle feed, but had more sense than pride and took the frugal route and breast fed. My mum said it was the same for her.

She breast fed 6 of us but had to give up with the youngest two. Her ducts were probably knackered at that stage.

I think every woman should try breast feed: it's free, it's on tap, there's no need to sterilise anything. If she canny though that's not a failure on her part, it's very difficult or impossible for some people and it's more important for a baby to be fed than to be breastfed.

Cosmicfox

My sibling and I were all bottle fed and we're all healthy. I asked my ma about it once and said she found bottle feeding far less awkward than breast-feeding. Helped that all my milk was free off the NHS.

I can see why many don't take to breast-feeding. I've had a few mums on the wards in tears because of the pain and babies failing to thrive because mum can't produce enough, which makes mum feel like a failure. Some people need a lot of support.

Overly pushy midwives don't help. That was another thing my mum mentioned that put her off.

Lia_lia

I'm very surprised at how many people were bottle fed in the 80's. All my cousins and siblings were breastfed. And we are not travellers! Granted I was in the UK when I was a baby and we lived in France when my brother was a baby, but all my Irish cousins were breastfed in the 80's and early 90's.

mariaalice

My oldest is in her thirties and was Brest fed, she was born in a small maternity unit which has now closed down and the nurses and other mother were surprised that I was Brest feeding. They got the occasional mother who was Brest feeding but it was not common. The only help I got was a leaflet the nurse gave me as I was going home, about the La leach league and it was more of ..well if you are going to be Brest feeding you better have this leaflet.

andekwarhola

Das Kitty wrote: »

Same. Both times.

The first time I was so determined that it would eventually work that I seriously damaged my mental health. The second time I was far calmer about giving up.

My wife was the same, and all on top of an incredibly difficult pregnancy that required recuperation. It was making her feel really depressed until she decided that we would use bottles. Obviously, some of our more zealous breastfeeding acquaintances weren't a great help for assuaging the feelings of depression which was a shame.

Our kids are healthy, do well in school; are active and sporty and are very tall for their age. Don't see that bottle feeding held them back in any way.

Milly33

Milly33 wrote: »

It seems to be more a media thing is it, I have never come across anyone being rude to women breastfeeding...

Yeah reading on it, it is saying after a year but I just wonder where the research as such came from or is it just telling you to do this and that..Guess what i will be doing for the day.

The WHO has a lot of literature on breast feeding and on formula.

To address your other question, before the manufacture of formula milk it was made by adding water, cream, oil and sugar to cows milk. I'm sure there's other things too, but the point is that it was made in the home long before it was an industry.

Prior to that, women were hired as wet nurses to free wealthy women from the tie of breastfeeding. These women lactated almost constantly as it was their source of income and would go from home to home, providing breastmilk for babies who's mothers couldn't/chose not to feed.

Formula milk in the west was marketed as a more refined and less common way of feeding your baby, and not very subtly as a status symbol. If you can afford to buy formula, you must be doing well.

http://www.domesticgeekgirl.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Paa.la-White-House-Milk-Vintage-Formula-Ad-from-Vintage-Romance.jpg

No doctor can recommend any better evaporated milk for infant feedling

sullivlo

"andekwarhola wrote: »

Our kids are healthy, do well in school; are active and sporty and are very tall for their age. Don't see that bottle feeding held them back in any way.

That's it exactly. Your kids are healthy. Which, ultimately, is all that matters. I wasn't breast fed. It didn't impact me negatively in any way.

Mum couldn't. It was a traumatic birth and she required surgery and stuff, so whilst I was a super healthy super massive baby ready for discharge, mum was kept in hospital for a few weeks after I was born and was too sick to feed me.

I think people put too much emphasis on the importance of breast feeding. And I say that as someone who studied it extensively for 5 years. I know how super amazing it is. But science rocks, so formulas are getting better and better. Ultimately once babby is fed, does it really matter if it's bottle or boob?

Think people who chastise others for not / not being able to should take a long (walk off a short pier) hard look at themselves.

And those who give out about breastfeeding in public can join the others on the pier. The baby is eating FFS!

meeeeh

Why are HSE pushing it so much if there is no difference. Surely is waste of money and time.

And before anyone thinks again that I am no crusade against bottle feeding mothers. I don't give a damn weather someone bfeeds or bottle feeds but don't do the whole it's not for me but I support it. It's patronizing, I didn't breastfeed because I wanted to be martyr or smug hippie, until the antenatal classes I didn't even realize that some bottle feed from the beginning. It never featured in my world, it was the natural thing to do but so was to stop when I went back to work because I couldn't be bothered with breast pump.

mariaalice

If call the midwife is anything to go by: mother were giving their babies watered down condensed milk or cows milk and that's not good for a baby so baby formula was considered better. It just shows people always looks for alternatives, plus when society were poorer woman were often not nutritionally able to feed babies properly due to themselves not having enough to eat.

rustyzip

rustyzip wrote: »

I've become hugely interested in breast feeding and the strange relationship we have in Ireland.

I worry about the fact that I wasn't BF and I'm in my 30's now... What sort of health implications it may have down the line.

God I haven't a notion whether I was or not

sullivlo

meeeeh wrote: »

Why are HSE pushing it so much if there is no difference. Surely is waste of money and time.

I never said there wasn't a difference. Breast is best & all that jazz. However formula is a totally adequate replacement.

havana

Grolschevik wrote: »

Born 1971. Formula fed. No health problems at all bar gout, but that's genetic. PhD educated.

I don't think there's a 'best practice' to feeding your baby. Apart from feeding it enough.

Of course there is a best way to feed a baby. Just as there is a 'best' way to feed an adult.

Or is the fact that I feed my 8 year old nothing but McDonald's ok because 'at least he's fed'?

sullivlo

havana wrote: »

Of course there is a best way to feed a baby. Just as there is a 'best' way to feed an adult.

Or is the fact that I feed my 8 year old nothing but McDonald's ok because 'at least he's fed'?

Breastfeeding is obviously best practice. However it's not always possible for whatever reason. So formulas are an adequate replacement.

Not really comparing like with like though with your McDonald's. Maybe compare home cooked pasta sauce made with tomatoes, to a jar of dolmio.

havana

havana wrote: »

Of course there is a best way to feed a baby. Just as there is a 'best' way to feed an adult.

Or is the fact that I feed my 8 year old nothing but McDonald's ok because 'at least he's fed'?

Not really comparable.