New housing developments in Maynooth

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122920224#Comment_122920224

Its the traffic impacts on the town that mean that everyones views need to be taken in to account, not those in a few houses. There's no weighting you can apply that makes the residents of one estate outweigh the rest of the town.

I'm not even going to get in to environmental impacts of those 1km drives; or people driving to work because the train station is just too far to be bothered walking, or driving to college because the 139 bus stop is multiple kilometres away instead of a hundred metres away, etc etc.

Traffic calming measures like those in Parklands/Castlebridge across the road, and swingeing parking enforcement will deal with those issues - but when parking enforcement happens in housing estates, residents with multiple cars start getting fined. Lots of residents estate parking (everywhere - this is not anything specific to Silken Vale) is illegal as it is - arses of cars hanging over paths, on verges, on corners - so parking enforcement is a double edged sword for residents who think it'll just stop outsiders parking in their area.

Legal parking is legal parking, though. As long as you live in a world where car ownership and use is normalised, people are going to park.

The majority of submissions against the permability measures should have been dismissed out of hand - "I'm scared of teenagers", "I'm scared of renters" (that one came up in Carton Court, ironically full of renters itself!), etc.

Those about parking and traffic levels can be dealt with by enforcement but believe me, a lot of the people complaining will be a lot more pissed off when they get parking fines for parking the way they've parked for 30 years.

TragicJohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122920244#Comment_122920244

You mention everyone's view needs to be taken into account, but then when people submitted their views you have a problem with that because in your humble opinion its the wrong view. Sounds like you ain't a fan of democracy.

I can't speak on Carton Court where you live, so I'll leave that to you.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122920385#Comment_122920385

Democracy results in the majority winning, which is what you're against here - you want a few residents to be able to impede something that is of a net benefit to the town.

I don't live in Carton Court. I read a lot of the submissions, the hysterical scared of renters one was from someone in Carton Court who was horrified at the idea of r-r-renters from Mullen Park walking through her beautiful estate. Which is full of rental properties.

Those type of submissions need to be dismissed out of hand as unhinged. And that class of complaint, realistically, made up 80%+ of all the submissions on permeability measures.

For traffic or parking related ones - the correct approach is proceed with the change, and then do any required traffic or parking enforcement fixes afterwards. Because more often than not, the predicted outcome objected to doesn't actually happen.

As for the obvious desire line already between the end of The Arches and the Meadowbrook Road, NTA policy currently is just to open those and put tarmac down without consultation; so you may find it just gets done anyway. See elsewhere in the town where this was done in recent years - Carton Court to Circle K is a notable example. Done by the NTA, not the Council, so Councillors have no influence.

TragicJohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122920400#Comment_122920400

So the majority of folks in all the estates wanted something and they got it, and that's not democracy?

I find it hard to follow your twisted logic here.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122920434#Comment_122920434

A small number of people in a small number of estates wanted something that is a net negative to the town as a whole.

It appears that some of them have got these (for now), against the wishes of the rest of the town

That's not democracy.

TragicJohnson

So you now know the wishes of the entire town, wow!!

Submission sought, submissions made, submissions wrong, submitters negative. I get it.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122920493#Comment_122920493

Submissions made, submissions very localised, submissions often referencing things that are untrue (permeability increases crime - no, it actually reduces it, this is well proven) or based on fear of the unknown.

Yeah, those all need to be dismissed out of hand, reduced to a line saying "x hundred submissions on Y, basis not valid".

This is what happens in submission processes on every consultation. Planning permission does not get refused because a thousand people send in a form letter that can be boiled down to "don't like it", it gets refused when legitimate points are raised in submissions.

The town is going to continue being choked by traffic because of a few people in a few estates doing organised submission campaigns; often based on bollox e.g. the scared of students ones.

That's not democracy. And the Silken Vale stuff should all happen, but the chances of Irish Rail allowing the station one is basically nil. The Meadowbrook Road will probably happen eventually by the NTA, it will bring significant numbers of people in to walking distance of bus stops.

If you wanted the traffic plan brought to a simple vote, it would pass as the entire town is in bits due to car dependency; the kind of car dependency you're trying to justify keeping based on blaming, well, car dependency for it.

TragicJohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122920505#Comment_122920505

Are you saying that the traffic problems in Maynooth would have be eradicated by the proposed permeability routes?

So suddenly all the university students that drive to college will stop, and all the folks heading for the M3/M1 from the M4/M7 wishing to avoid the M50 toll will disappear.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122920563#Comment_122920563

They would be reduced. And they certainly won't be reduced by leaving estates as 700m long dead-ends.

TragicJohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122920568#Comment_122920568

Your unwillingness to see any other view point apart from your own, is astounding.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122920610#Comment_122920610

There is a huge difference between seeing another point of view and being made accept its valid. Opinions can be wrong.

Any of them based on fear are invalid from the off. No ifs, no buts.

Traffic and parking based ones can possibly be valid but can be rectified afterwards; if they turn out to be true. Many never do.

TragicJohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122920636#Comment_122920636

Well that's good to hear, I feel that's progress that you are now admitting opinions/point of views may be wrong.

Adios.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122920672#Comment_122920672

You're taking it very, very badly that not everyone agrees with you on wanting your estate to be a 700m long dead-end.

lordgoat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122919984#Comment_122919984

LOL - shock horror at SV complaining about something positive for everyone. No we don't want to be able to access the train station we enjoy the misery of the walk/traffic and will make sure everyone else does too. Zero surprise though.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122920725#Comment_122920725

Or the shops. Or the 139 bus stops - would be 130m instead of 1.2km to the otherwise closest stops.

TragicJohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122920701#Comment_122920701

I never said that, I said earlier I was open minded on the actual issue.

My difference of opinion with you is that I respect the views of the majority who spoke on this issue via the submissions raised and how you demonize submitters. If the residents had decided they were in favour of these openings, that's fine by me.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122920753#Comment_122920753

Your issue is that you think that the estates desires wins over the needs of society at large.

TragicJohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122920763#Comment_122920763

When did you start to speak for society? Look you are one who has an issue with society speaking via submissions made, they may be different to yours and thats fine.

TragicJohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122920725#Comment_122920725

So you are being prevented from walking to the train station by SV residents, if that's the case you need to speak to the Gardai. When did everyone become so scared of walking, extra steps are good for us all. God knows we could all do with a bit of exercise 😀.

L1011

Can't get through to some people. Enjoy your car dependency and higher rates of burglary and vehicular thefts in a 700m dead-end.

lordgoat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122920807#Comment_122920807

Again your (and your estate) could give a sh-it about the wider people of maynooth, maybe the elderly or those not able get around as easy as everyone else. Keep going though your responses in here really are telling.

When the traffic when it's backed all the way down your cut de sac enjoy the exercise.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122920837#Comment_122920837

Very harsh and aggressive, is there need for this tone?

Id love to know how opening up this estate will lead to these fantasy journey savings. Anyone wanting to go the shop for milk (which seems to be accountable for 95% of the traffic in Maynooth according to you and L1017) can walk through old greenfield road and there is also the rail station car park at the other end of this estate. And I also believe that there are shops in west Maynooth such as the spar so maybe its an advertising campaign that is needed instead?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122920959#Comment_122920959

Someone living in the bottom of Silken Vale/The Arches can't walk anywhere except out the top, 700m walk away. The Spar in Newtown, their physically closest shop, is effectively inaccessible to them.

All the figures are real, measured on a map.

TragicJohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122920837#Comment_122920837

If I have some how offended you by expressing a different opinion to you on the internet. I'm deeply sorry. I don't see how you can throw out a blanket statement like you did about an entire estate, that's bang out of order.

As I said before, I an open minded on this issue of permeability but I will go with the residents majority.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122920970#Comment_122920970

Oh right, so its all the fault of the people who live in the "bottom" of Silken Vale / The Arches"

1. how do you know the shopping habits of the people at the bottom of silken vale / arches?
2. how do you know the transit habits of the people at the bottom of silken vale / arches?
3. how do you know that these people want to walk that direction?

Stop digging man, you originally had a valid point but at this stage you are way off.

I actually agree in general with opening up estates if it will drive a benefit, but I really don't see the benefit here. You chose the wrong hill / gateway to die on.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122921076#Comment_122921076

Based on them opposing the opening, yeah, it is.

There are significant traffic surveys done of the town feeding in to the traffic plan that determined these measures. There's also decades of studies in to general traffic patterns and car usage patterns. We don't need to know what specific people may think as we know what humans just do.

Someone who is 1.1km from shops and has a car is going to use it. When a very simple permeability measure suddenly makes (a different set of) shops be 500m away, they may not.

When a bus stop for a bus they may use is 130m away vs 1.2km away, the chances of the using that bus is much, much higher - potentially replacing a long distance car journey. The NTA doesn't include houses over a certain distance away from a stop as being covered by a bus service, and that's why some extra stops have been planted in recent years - e.g. Rockfield, where the back of the estate was so far from the C4/W6 stops that some people would just drive to Celbridge or whatever.

My point remains as valid as ever. The benefits are huge, the claimed downsides are notional, and fixable if they actually happened. Every single permeability measure in the traffic plan is sensible and every single one should have been delivered.

Add the minor changes from each one together and the eventual outcome is huge. Pick and chose which ones to close due to local opposition and the outcome is not.

internelligent

The aggression towards L1011 is a little over the top here.

The arguments for opening up the back of SV are fairly well reasoned. Walking 500m is more attractive than driving 1.1km through traffic, to me anyway, but I'd typically drive 1.1km rather than walk it, (regardless of how much exercise I could do with), as time could be a factor. I'm the end it adds more traffic where it's not needed.

I'll just add that grabbing a carton of milk is just an example of why people might drive locally btw for those making light of a valid reason to go to the shop. Nobody is stating the houses are owned by suckling calves or anything. I'd well believe if The Village Store had reopened in Moyglare Village the town traffic would be reduced again, not that 95% are driving around looking for milk.

Also, there's nothing wrong with deeming some objections nonsensical if there's no real evidence to support them. FYI, this is not a blanket statement to ignore objections that aren't liked.

Lastly, is there a deliberate effort being made to misunderstand what L1011 is saying? The counter arguments typically include a twisted idea of what was said.

FrankN1

Maynooth needs less cars and less lazy people. Telling it straight. Most would drive 4 metres if it saved 3.2 seconds.

lordgoat

The fact that it needs to be explained that getting milk is an example is hilarious. Hope my tone isn't too harsh.

OwlsZat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122923671#Comment_122923671

Maynooth is full of houses, children schools and creches. Very few kids get to school without being brought in car. Maybe the solution is more bike lanes but I suspect most children wouldn't be allowed cycle regardless on safety grounds.