Ceann Comhairle

Victor

So, before we elect a Taoiseach, we need to elect a Ceann Comhairle.

Whither Enda Kenny?

Truckermal

Victor wrote: »

So, before we elect a Taoiseach, we need to elect a Ceann Comhairle.

Whither Enda Kenny?

I thought the present lad was reelected automatically? ?

Zaph

Truckermal wrote: »

I thought the present lad was reelected automatically? ?

Re-elected to the Dáil automatically, but not necessarily to the position of Ceann Comhairle after the new Dáil sits.

Truckermal

Zaph wrote: »

Re-elected to the Dáil automatically, but not necessarily to the position of Ceann Comhairle after the new Dáil sits.

Apparently it's by secret ballot too which I never knew.

HeidiHeidi

Truckermal wrote: »

Apparently it's by secret ballot too which I never knew.

That's a new thing, only brought in recently.

Sam Russell

What would make more sense would be if the Ceann Comhairle were elected as the last action of the dissolved Dail. He would then be non-constituency, so all constituencies would have a full complement. He would then serve in the new Dail until the next dissolution, or he retired. If he was re-elected, then would continue but could not return to a constituency. In order to be eligible he would need to be long serving as a TD, and could be considered to be non-party.

TCDStudent1

Paddy power have Michael ring as favourite for it.

johnnyskeleton

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

Paddy power have Michael ring as favourite for it.

FG will need all their numbers if they are to form a government. The only way I can see a FG TD becoming CC is if FF insist on it as part of a coalition. Both FG and FF have publically denied that they will form the next government, ergo it must be true. So its a good bet.

mickdw

Sam Russell wrote: »

What would make more sense would be if the Ceann Comhairle were elected as the last action of the dissolved Dail. He would then be non-constituency, so all constituencies would have a full complement. He would then serve in the new Dail until the next dissolution, or he retired. If he was re-elected, then would continue but could not return to a constituency. In order to be eligible he would need to be long serving as a TD, and could be considered to be non-party.

I think the current system makes more sense. As Ceann Comhairle, they may not offer the same service to the constituents that they may normally do so might well find it hard to get re elected having been 5 years in the role. Automatically returning them is therefore a reasonable solution.

johnnyskeleton

mickdw wrote: »

I think the current system makes more sense. As Ceann Comhairle, they may not offer the same service to the constituents that they may normally do so might well find it hard to get re elected having been 5 years in the role. Automatically returning them is therefore a reasonable solution.

It could be given as a sort of lifetime achievement award - some TD who is long in the tooth and starting to go soft in the head but needs an extra 5 years to get full pension could be slotted in. Or maybe someone who is a spent force after being kicked out of a ministry. James Reilly or Alan Shatter anyone? Anyone?

Zaph

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

It could be given as a sort of lifetime achievement award - some TD who is long in the tooth and starting to go soft in the head but needs an extra 5 years to get full pension could be slotted in. Or maybe someone who is a spent force after being kicked out of a ministry. James Reilly or Alan Shatter anyone? Anyone?

They need to be able to command the respect of the Dáil to bring the house to order when things kick off. That would have ruled out Reilly, they probably would have just laughed at him.

johnnyskeleton

Zaph wrote: »

They need to be able to command the respect of the Dáil to bring the house to order when things kick off. That would have ruled out Reilly, they probably would have just laughed at him.

Barrett has had his fair share of slagging matches though. Unless they could choose a non-TD like John Bowman. I'd tune into that

TCDStudent1

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

FG will need all their numbers if they are to form a government. The only way I can see a FG TD becoming CC is if FF insist on it as part of a coalition. Both FG and FF have publically denied that they will form the next government, ergo it must be true. So its a good bet.

But because FF have less seats than FG, will they actually want a FF CC?

Sam Russell

mickdw wrote: »

I think the current system makes more sense. As Ceann Comhairle, they may not offer the same service to the constituents that they may normally do so might well find it hard to get re elected having been 5 years in the role. Automatically returning them is therefore a reasonable solution.

Your missing my point. Once they become Ceann Comhairle, they cease to have a constituency, so they do not have constituents. They either continue as Ceann Comhairle or retire. Consequently, the Ceann Comhairle position would only suit long serving TDs who are close to retirement, and who consider this as an alternative - such as Pat Rabbitte, Ruairi Quinn, or Eamonn Gilmore all of whom retired from this Dail. Eamonn Gilmore has to wait 5 years for his pension as he is only 60, and it would suit him very well.

blackwhite

Sam Russell wrote: »

Your missing my point. Once they become Ceann Comhairle, they cease to have a constituency, so they do not have constituents. They either continue as Ceann Comhairle or retire. Consequently, the Ceann Comhairle position would only suit long serving TDs who are close to retirement, and who consider this as an alternative - such as Pat Rabbitte, Ruairi Quinn, or Eamonn Gilmore all of whom retired from this Dail. Eamonn Gilmore has to wait 5 years for his pension as he is only 60, and it would suit him very well.

That's completely incorrect.

The outgoing Ceann Comhairle, Sean Barrett, has been automatically re-elected as a TD for Dun Laoghaire.
There isn't a hope in hell of him winning the secret ballot this time around (he's made too many enemies in the last 5 years), so once the new Dáil is seated he'll return to the back benches, where he serves as one of three FG TDs for Dun Laoghaire.

None of Rabbitte, Quinn or Gilmore are eligible this time around, as they aren't going to be members of the 32nd Dáil.

Of all the recent Ceann Comhairle's, all except O'Donoghue have taken a seat on the back benches in the Dail following their stint as CC, and have then retired at the following election.

A good example of a CC who continued in politics after their term of office was Sean Treacy in 1977. After completing a term as CC and being automatically re-elected, he stood 4 more times again for Labour in Tipp South in 1981, 1982 (twice) and 1987.

johnnyskeleton

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

But because FF have less seats than FG, will they actually want a FF CC?

CC only gets to vote in the event of a tie, so when the numbers are tight the larger parties will appoint one of their rivals as Ceann Comhairle.

So lets say its 51 FG 45 FF. If the CC is FG it will be 50/45 or a difference of 5. If it is a FF CC it will be 51/44 or a difference of 7. So FG would want a FF CC to increase the gap and FF might insist on a FG CC to reduce the gap.

crusier

Barrett was the wrong choice and peed off all sides and was seen to be biased against certain people, signs on the new rule on the secret ballot and his decision not to put his name forward, he wouldn't have a hope of being RE elected

Sam Russell

blackwhite wrote: »

That's completely incorrect.

The outgoing Ceann Comhairle, Sean Barrett, has been automatically re-elected as a TD for Dun Laoghaire.
There isn't a hope in hell of him winning the secret ballot this time around (he's made too many enemies in the last 5 years), so once the new Dáil is seated he'll return to the back benches, where he serves as one of three FG TDs for Dun Laoghaire.

None of Rabbitte, Quinn or Gilmore are eligible this time around, as they aren't going to be members of the 32nd Dáil.

Of all the recent Ceann Comhairle's, all except O'Donoghue have taken a seat on the back benches in the Dail following their stint as CC, and have then retired at the following election.

A good example of a CC who continued in politics after their term of office was Sean Treacy in 1977. After completing a term as CC and being automatically re-elected, he stood 4 more times again for Labour in Tipp South in 1981, 1982 (twice) and 1987.

You are still missing the point.

The election for CC would take place BEFORE the dissolution so they would have been eligible. Furthermore, once a TD becomes CC, he CANNOT return to be a constituent TD - he must resign from the Dail.

This is anew proposal - different from what is there currently.

It is wrong that a TD who is elected as a normal TD cannot serve his elctorate once he is made CC. Nor is ir right that a constituent in a 3 seater constituancy has only two TDs to go to if one of the three is CC.

Victor

Sam Russell wrote: »

Furthermore, once a TD becomes CC, he CANNOT return to be a constituent TD - he must resign from the Dail.

Says who?

seamus

Victor wrote: »

Says who?

I think that's Sam's proposal - that election to the position of CC effectively becomes your testimonial and once you give up the chair, you go home.

I don't favour an outgoing CC selection tbh. It's inherently undemocratic - in theory none of the outgoing TDs may be elected next time, yet they're voting in a CC for the next crowd.

Plus it could be abused as a way to protect a member who is destined to be ousted at the next election - think James Reilly. Instead of throwing them to the wolves, the outgoing government can conspire to guarantee them at least one more term in the Dail, even if it is in the chair, it's a large paycheque.

At least in the current system, the selected CC will have been elected by the people to the Dail.

Godge

Outside of the two main parties, who may not want it for tactical reasons, I cannot see any of the smaller parties wanting it either. That leaves SF or the Independents. Caoimhin O'Caolain is the only Shinner in the Dail long enough to warrant it. Gives them the advantage of two definite seats in Cavan/Monaghan next time out.

Among the independents Denis Naughten or Finian McGrath are possibilities. Hard to see anyone else doing it.

Sleepy

I reckon they should vote for whichever returned Independent had the lowest attendance in the previous Dail

blackwhite

Sam Russell wrote: »

You are still missing the point.

The election for CC would take place BEFORE the dissolution so they would have been eligible. Furthermore, once a TD becomes CC, he CANNOT return to be a constituent TD - he must resign from the Dail.

This is anew proposal - different from what is there currently.

It is wrong that a TD who is elected as a normal TD cannot serve his elctorate once he is made CC. Nor is ir right that a constituent in a 3 seater constituancy has only two TDs to go to if one of the three is CC.

Hadn't seen your original post - thought you were talking about the current system.

Fully agree with your last point there BTW - it's the major flaw in the current CC system

Sam Russell

seamus wrote: »

I think that's Sam's proposal - that election to the position of CC effectively becomes your testimonial and once you give up the chair, you go home.

I don't favour an outgoing CC selection tbh. It's inherently undemocratic - in theory none of the outgoing TDs may be elected next time, yet they're voting in a CC for the next crowd.

Plus it could be abused as a way to protect a member who is destined to be ousted at the next election - think James Reilly. Instead of throwing them to the wolves, the outgoing government can conspire to guarantee them at least one more term in the Dail, even if it is in the chair, it's a large paycheque.

At least in the current system, the selected CC will have been elected by the people to the Dail.

That is possible certainly. However, how many judges appointed by a partisan government turn out to be biased - (at least obviously so) - towards their party that appointed them. Surely the CC is a quasi judicial appointment and could be considered such.

Another point is that it is a one term appointment with no return.

I think O'Reilly would have less chance of being elected CC as he had of being re-elected to the Dail.

A secret ballot would help.

TCDStudent1

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

CC only gets to vote in the event of a tie, so when the numbers are tight the larger parties will appoint one of their rivals as Ceann Comhairle.

So lets say its 51 FG 45 FF. If the CC is FG it will be 50/45 or a difference of 5. If it is a FF CC it will be 51/44 or a difference of 7. So FG would want a FF CC to increase the gap and FF might insist on a FG CC to reduce the gap.

Yeah that was the point I was trying to make but you made it much better!!

sjb25

Mick Wallace be great craic

Faugheen

Wouldn't be at all surprised if someone like John McGuinness got it.

Bass Reeves

On the FG benches the most likely are Ring and Creed neither are ministerial quality however it is unlikely that the CC will come from FG. If they form a minority government there will be 30 ministerial positions to be filled from within the party as Labour will go into opposition. It is unlikely that Labour will release someone to be CC but if Joan is cute she will let Brendan Howlin go for it that should secure her as leader of the Labour party.

On the FF side Brendan Smith or Eamon O'Cuiv are possible choices, Tommy Broughan is about the only choice from the independents. Cannot see FF and FG giving such a plum position to SF. I plump for Brendan Smith

4ensic15

Bass Reeves wrote: »

On the FG benches the most likely are Ring and Creed neither are ministerial quality however it is unlikely that the CC will come from FG. If they form a minority government there will be 30 ministerial positions to be filled from within the party as Labour will go into opposition. It is unlikely that Labour will release someone to be CC but if Joan is cute she will let Brendan Howlin go for it that should secure her as leader of the Labour party.

On the FF side Brendan Smith or Eamon O'Cuiv are possible choices, Tommy Broughan is about the only choice from the independents. Cannot see FF and FG giving such a plum position to SF. I plump for Brendan Smith

Tactical considerations also play a part. O Cuiv is the only FF TD in his constituency. They will not want to have no TD there. They would look to Pat Cope in Donegal who is an elder politician and who would help ensure that SF have trouble getting back the second seat by bringing down the number of seats on offer in Donegal to 4 at the next election. #

piuswal

To date the only TD who has expressed an interest, as far as I know, is John Deasy FG, He needs the support of 7 TDs as part of the nomination process.

screamer

Zaph wrote: »

Truckermal wrote: »

I thought the present lad was reelected automatically? ?

Re-elected to the D il automatically, but not necessarily to the position of Ceann Comhairle after the new D il sits.

So why exactly did he get a free pass then?

Zaph

screamer wrote: »

So why exactly did he get a free pass then?

The outgoing Ceann Comhairle is automatically re-elected. That's always been the case. Nobody knows who is going to be the CC until the next Dáil sits. It may be the previous CC or it could be someone else.

screamer

Zaph wrote: »

screamer wrote: »

So why exactly did he get a free pass then?

The outgoing Ceann Comhairle is automatically re-elected. That's always been the case. Nobody knows who is going to be the CC until the next D il sits. It may be the previous CC or it could be someone else.

Ok but why? They're outgoing they're going to be replaced so why do they just get another 5 year term automatically? If they were staying on as CC I understand but they don't. So why do they get a free pass?

Victor

screamer wrote: »

Ok but why? They're outgoing they're going to be replaced so why do they just get another 5 year term automatically? If they were staying on as CC I understand but they don't. So why do they get a free pass?

Because that's what the Constitution and legislation say.

In practice, the CC plays a neutral role in the Dáil and doesn't get to pull strokes for their constituents, which leaves them at an electoral disadvantage.

seamus

screamer wrote: »

Ok but why? They're outgoing they're going to be replaced so why do they just get another 5 year term automatically? If they were staying on as CC I understand but they don't. So why do they get a free pass?

Victor wrote: »

Because that's what the Constitution and legislation say.

In practice, the CC plays a neutral role in the Dáil and doesn't get to pull strokes for their constituents, which leaves them at an electoral disadvantage.

As Victor says. In effect, the CC has been elected but denied the opportunity to serve their constituency. So they get a free pass the next time around to "catch up" and do what they were originally elected to do.