No refund for families who have paid water charges

bmay529

As someone who has paid their water charges I read this morning that FF say there will be No refund for families who have paid water charges. If true, as someone who felt they were meeting their civic duty, even though I did not like the charge, it would really **** me off if those who did not pay got off scot-free while those who did will face the hit. For sure I will remember it a) when deciding who to elect next time and b) I will remember this whenever any future charges our Government dream up are levied. SO FF find a way to recognise those who paid and don't pawn it off by saying someone else decided on the charge. Also am I right in saying every other country in Europe has water charges and that their removal will effect the country's balance sheet with many other negative implications

Mr.Micro

bmay529 wrote: »

As someone who has paid their water charges I read this morning that FF say there will be No refund for families who have paid water charges. If true, as someone who felt they were meeting their civic duty, even though I did not like the charge, it would really **** me off if those who did not pay got off scot-free while those who did will face the hit. For sure I will remember it a) when deciding who to elect next time and b) I will remember this whenever any future charges our Government dream up are levied. SO FF find a way to recognise those who paid and don't pawn it off by saying someone else decided on the charge. Also am I right in saying every other country in Europe has water charges and that their removal will effect the country's balance sheet with many other negative implications

Did you expect anything different. Water charges are here to stay.

vg88

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Water charges are here to stay.

lol

cruizer101

It happened before, years ago I think the 80's they brought in water charges, some people paid some didn't got scrapped no refund. Madness but that politicians for you

mcgovern

If they scrap the charges without refunds, I won't be voting for any parties involved in the future.

tipptom

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Did you expect anything different. Water charges are here to stay.

I await to hear what government formation you have made up that is going to carry on with the water charges.

oscarBravo

tipptom wrote: »

I await to hear what government formation you have made up that is going to carry on with the water charges.

It'll be interesting to see how long a cobbled-together populist government's plan to scrap water charges lasts in the face of EC fines for WFD breaches.

tipptom

oscarBravo wrote: »

It'll be interesting to see how long a cobbled-together populist government's plan to scrap water charges lasts in the face of EC fines for WFD breaches.

Would be interesting to see how long a party would last if they go in and implement FG/Labs policy when they have said its a red line issue.


I would say FG is delighted to get out of the mess they have made of it and they get to save face.


Sure don't the EU allow countrys to evade breeches the whole time and we have Endas special relationship with Angela.


IW has not a chance unless FG go back to the electorate and get an overall majority.

Mr.Micro

tipptom wrote: »

I await to hear what government formation you have made up that is going to carry on with the water charges.

Do you really think that we can continue to supply water in a vague unregulated fashion, with no standardisation of quality or supply, as we move forward, or backwards as Ireland frequently does? Water charges will be in place one way or another, it is naive to believe otherwise.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

As long as there is this uncertainty people will stop paying, myself included. Why would I pay money to an entity that may not exist in 6 months time when it's clear there will be no refunds? I'll sit tight and ignore Irish water until we see what's what, and I'd imagine that I'm not the only one.

vicwatson

oscarBravo wrote: »

It'll be interesting to see how long a cobbled-together populist government's plan to scrap water charges lasts in the face of EC fines for WFD breaches.

EU fines, we might not even be in, and there might not even be, an EU in 12 months time

Jim2007

bmay529 wrote: »

As someone who has paid their water charges I read this morning that FF say there will be No refund for families who have paid water charges. If true, as someone who felt they were meeting their civic duty, even though I did not like the charge, it would really **** me off if those who did not pay got off scot-free while those who did will face the hit.

If and it is only if the charge was to be abolish, it will be from some date in the future and those who did not pay will still be liable for the charges during the period they were enforce.

Charles Babbage

Jim2007 wrote: »

If and it is only if the charge was to be abolish, it will be from some date in the future and those who did not pay will still be liable for the charges during the period they were enforce.

Will these spongers be pursued for their payments?

micosoft

Effectively FF are proposing to legalise tax evasion on the principle that any tax could at any point in the future be cancelled without recourse for those who have paid said charge and no penalties for those who have not. Why would you pay anything on that basis!

That said, I don't believe for a second they mean it. This is without doubt the most cynical political move I have ever seen - some element of electoral gain in return for undermining the states authority. Along with their "new form of Dail" this is nothing less then a ploy to have their cake and eat it in opposition and then return to single party FF govt in 2 years time when they pull the rug. FG should step back and let them form a Govt.

micosoft

Jim2007 wrote: »

If and it is only if the charge was to be abolish, it will be from some date in the future and those who did not pay will still be liable for the charges during the period they were enforce.

And what stick exactly will a non-existent entity (if IW is disbanded per FF policy) have to enforce this?

Arkady

Anyone who allowed a metered connection (under the false impression that everyone will have to have a meter installed), instead of insisting on retaining an un-metered connection, is also being doubly screwed. So much for being law abiding citizen in Ireland, even if you don't agree with a policy, and the authorities making sure breaking the law doesn't pay. What a gombeen hole this country is.

nhunter100

Charles Babbage wrote:

Will these spongers be pursued for their payments?

Bitter?

nice_guy80

FF agreed the establishment of Irish Water
FG then followed up on it in a shoddy shoddy way

both of them should be hung out to dry

Brussels Sprout

I paid my water bill last year and I'm annoyed, not at the loss of that money but at the thought we are going to continue to be the only developed country to allow people to waste as much water as they wish. Not only that but the water infrastructure will go back to being a second class, neglected government expense behind the likes of pensions, social welfare payments and public sector wages. Whenever the government need to save money they'll cut it first in other words

I read the other day that there are still 1.2 billion people in the world who live without electricity, mostly in sub-Saharan Africa and parts of south-east Asia. Part of the reason why it's so difficult to expand the electrical network in these countries is that people see power "as a right" and tap into the network illegally. This loses money for the supply companies and makes them shrink their networks. The idea of "unlimited free power as a right" seems as foreign to us here in Ireland as the idea of "unlimited free treated water as a right" seems to the rest of the OECD. In many ways we still are a bloody banana republic.

seamus

micosoft wrote: »

And what stick exactly will a non-existent entity (if IW is disbanded per FF policy) have to enforce this?

Irish Water won't be disbanded. FF's policy is to repaint it with a new logo.

The stick that will be used is a charge against your property preventing you from selling or transferring it until the charge is paid.

Tenants who do not clear their bill on moving out will have the balance taken out of their deposits, as the landlord isn't going to pay it himself.

Littlehorny

Irish water was a disaster from day one, to the way it was set up and structured to the monumental amount of our money that was wasted on consultancy fees to putting in meters before any money was spent on infrastructure. It has also been proved many times that we already paid for our water services. The government made such a balls of the whole thing.
I think it is a great thing that the Irish people have stood up to be counted and told the people who are supposed to be working for us in our best interests to stick this con job where the sun doesn't shine. As i heard someone say "don't p*ss on my head and tell me it's raining".

gladrags

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Will these spongers be pursued for their payments?

No

There will be no payback,from the banks or any financial institutions.Incuding estate agents,auditors and developers...

For the sponging that led to the breakdown of society.

Although we did have a banking inqiiry,that certainly brought the parasites to justice.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

cml387

I've paid water charges but will not be paying the next bill (Shane Ross reckons I'd "be a fool" to pay it).

God help any government attempting to bring in a "broadcasting charge " for example.

Phoebas

oscarBravo wrote: »

It'll be interesting to see how long a cobbled-together populist government's plan to scrap water charges lasts in the face of EC fines for WFD breaches.

Do you remember all that 'fiscal space'? I think we've just found a use for it.

Priorities eh?

Terri26

People who didn't pay were taking a chance/risq themselves. I'll be annoyed if people do get refunded as they didn't take the risk.

mcko

Maybe use the refunds to get a backbone fitted.

seamus

Phoebas wrote: »

Do you remember all that 'fiscal space'? I think we've just found a use for it.

Priorities eh?

Yep. €7bn of it.

Like I've said all along, Irish Water and water charges are not going away.

At best IW will get a lick of paint and people will get a brief respite from receiving new water bills.

The cost of going back now will be multiple of what's been spent already.

KERSPLAT!

Terri26 wrote: »

People who didn't pay were taking a chance/risq themselves. I'll be annoyed if people do get refunded as they didn't take the risk.

Damn those of us who paid our bills!! Fools the lot of us.

People who haven't paid think this is great but as has been said already, numerous times, water charges as a whole aren't going away. Those who think they are, are the real fools.

screamer

Water charges are not taxes and they are not legally enforceable as yet. So far people have opted in or out of paying.....
Course they wont refund any monies paid where would they get it from? It's long gone down the drain.

Jack Killian

Will those looking for a refund return their grant ?

seamus

screamer wrote: »

Water charges are not taxes and they are not legally enforceable as yet.

They're legally enforceable because they're bills.

And it's already the case that you cannot sell your house without confirmation from Irish Water that the bills are paid.

So let's not start up this, "does not have a valid licence to collects monies" nonsense again, that was all put to bed 3 years ago.

Gator88

In the late 80s there was a property tax based on the value. As it turns out the way it was done it became known as the Dublin Property tax as so few homes outside Dublin had to pay it. People weren't happy & most refused to pay. When it was scraped a short while later those that hadn't paid weren't chased & those that paid didn't get a refund.

I will point out that the last government made it very clear that no late fees would come into effect for at least 12/ 18 months. All the opposition parties made it very clear that they would scrap the charge after the election. Why anyone would have paid it till after the election is beyond me. It didn't make sense. It would have cost nothing extra in fees or fines to wait till after the election. Not a penny was paid out for any of my properties. Though I never applied for the grant.

I do find it amazing that FG/L paid people €100 grant & many never paid the water bill at all. Couldn't they have given a €100 credit note toward the water bill instead of hard cash? They had money to throw away & yet they did nothing for homless

Shurimgreat

I expect the faux anger of the socialist groups to go into overdrive on this issue. More than likely the main issue they will fight the next election on.

screamer

So then people who have not paid will get punished by not being able to sell their houses with hefty penalties on top. So what's the beef? Water charges though are not taxes so not paying them is not tax evasion.

Birdie Num Num

This election result and the electorate are full of contradictions. Don't want to pay water charges, it's a tax. Don't want to give up USC we need taxes.

Shurimgreat

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

This election result and the electorate are full of contradictions. Don't want to pay water charges, it's a tax. Don't want to give up USC we need taxes.

Totally agree. The electorate are not better than the politicians. And yes contradictions a plenty.

People are saying water charges are the "final straw", yet USC is at least ten times water charges for most people. Faux anger from the socialist parties is driving this.

gladrags

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Absurd and ridiculous.

FG promised to abolish the USC,so by your line of thinking,we should all now stop paying our taxes.

FG,the new Syrizia?

jmayo

bmay529 wrote: »

As someone who has paid their water charges I read this morning that FF say there will be No refund for families who have paid water charges. If true, as someone who felt they were meeting their civic duty, even though I did not like the charge, it would really **** me off if those who did not pay got off scot-free while those who did will face the hit. For sure I will remember it a) when deciding who to elect next time and b) I will remember this whenever any future charges our Government dream up are levied. SO FF find a way to recognise those who paid and don't pawn it off by saying someone else decided on the charge. Also am I right in saying every other country in Europe has water charges and that their removal will effect the country's balance sheet with many other negative implications

I thought ff have said they will pursue those who haven't paid ??

If some people get away scot free it sets yet another dangerous precedent in good old banana republic Ireland.

What happens the next time the government (whoever they are) introduces a charge or tax that people do not like.
There will be no payers at all because even the civic minded law abiding taxpayers and citizens will just go why should we once again carry the can.

BTW it is going to be interesting over the next decade or so how greater Dublin solves it's water issues.
How exactly will they fund the new pipes, new reservoirs, connection to the Shannon, etc ?
Or will it also be funded from the magic money tree like everything else. :rolleyes:

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

jmayo

gladrags wrote: »

Absurd and ridiculous.

FG promised to abolish the USC,so by your line of thinking,we should all now stop paying our taxes.

FG,the new Syrizia?

Big difference between water charges and USC.
USC was deducted automatically as a tax.

You didn't somehow get out of paying it, unless you of course don't pay any tax and live off the taxes of others.

seamus

gladrags wrote: »

Absurd and ridiculous.

FG promised to abolish the USC,so by your line of thinking,we should all now stop paying our taxes.

Different thing. If Google made an announcement that they were going to buy eircom and give all customers their current services for free, do you think people would continue paying their eircom bills?

The bills are utility bills, not a tax.

gladrags

KERSPLAT! wrote: »

Damn those of us who paid our bills!! Fools the lot of us.

People who haven't paid think this is great but as has been said already, numerous times, water charges as a whole aren't going away. Those who think they are, are the real fools.

They most certainly are not going away,and the issue has defined the last government,by the way they handled it.

And given that the water charge controversy,was supposedly dead as an election issue a few weeks ago,says a lot about how the electorate felt in real terms.

The compeltely ignorant mantra that there is no other option to improving the water infrastructure,other than to charge the taxpayer,beggars belief.

mahoganygas

I paid my bills in 2015. If FF or anyone else scraps charges then I want to see 1 of 3 things happening:

1. Non payers are pursued and forced to pay arrears in full for 2015.

2. People like me who paid in full will receive a refund.

3. When water charges come back in 5 years down the road that my previous payments are credited to my account. Those who didn't pay in 2015 will indirectly pay in 2020.

Anything less than this is an insult to law abiding citizens who pay their taxes every day.

What an utter mess.

gladrags

mahoganygas wrote: »

I paid my bills in 2015. If FF or anyone else scraps charges then I want to see 1 of 3 things happening:

1. Non payers are pursued and forced to pay arrears in full for 2015.

2. People like me who paid in full will receive a refund.

3. When water charges come back in 5 years down the road that my previous payments are credited to my account. Those who didn't pay in 2015 will indirectly pay in 2020.

Anything less than this is an insult to law abiding citizens who pay their taxes every day.

What an utter mess.

As nothing is certain at the moment,looking ahead five years is pushing your luck,particularly when it comes to Irish water.

gladrags

jmayo wrote: »

Big difference between water charges and USC.
USC was deducted automatically as a tax.

You didn't somehow get out of paying it, unless you of course don't pay any tax and live off the taxes of others.

There is no big difference as regards to the cheap point that was being made with regards to Greece and Syrizia.

Abolishing the USC would have a huge impact,much more so than abolishing IW.

Arkady

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Well of course that idiot would, he's fighting for what's left of his pathetic and shambolic political career.
I have paid all my charges to to date, and allowed a meter to be installed.
But why would people pay them now, when there will be no refunds, and people who broke the law and didn't pay their taxes and charges, will face no sanction whatsoever. And on top of that, regardless if charges remain or not, those people who have refused a metered installation, will have unmetered connections for life, while the law abiding have more expensive metered connections. Only in gombeen Ireland could something be handled so badly as Irish Water and Water metering. It really doesn't pay to be an honest taxpaying citizen (gullible fool) in Ireland. We've been conned (yet again).

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

DublinWriter

oscarBravo wrote: »

It'll be interesting to see how long a cobbled-together populist government's plan to scrap water charges lasts in the face of EC fines for WFD breaches.

That'll be the same EU that threw us under the bus in 2009 by insisting we pay €12bn of junior bondholder debt?

Oh, good.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

StupidLikeAFox

I am in favour of a national utility to manage our water, which has the latest technology and practices in use (as Irish Water does) as opposed to the old system of 30 odd individual authorities managing it in all manners, ranging from the sublime to the ridiculous. I thought that this should be set up first, get the system sorted and then you would be in a position to start charging to maintain the system.

I knew they made a balls of Irish Water, both the execution and the communication, but like others in the thread paid the bill as I saw it at least as a step in the right direction.

Anyway, I have just cancelled my Direct Debit in about 30 seconds using online banking. I think its also pretty easy to claim a refund of DD payments thanks to SEPA, so I might look into that also.

All in all, an absolute farce of a situation from beginning to end