No refund for families who have paid water charges

xz

My turn to make an assumption..... There's definitely some Fine Gael party members or IW employees posting on this topic

xz

My turn to make an assumption..... They're definitely some Fine Gael party members or IW employees posting on this topic

Jayop

Arkady wrote: »

Depending on your point of view all governments and their laws are stupid dictat's so why should anyone pay anything ?

Well that's simply not true at all.

Everyone accepts that you have to pay income tax, no issues there.
Everyone accepts VAT, no issues there.
Everyone accepts road tax, no issues there.
Everyone accepted stamp duty, no issues there.
Everyone accepts duty on fuel and things like alcohol, no issue there.

Anyone not paying those is a tax dodger and should be pursued.

It's things like the TV licence to fund that ****e, tax on a persons home even though it's "inherently unfair and possibly unconstitutional" according to the one who introduced it, and taxes to pay for a semi-private quango like IW who have done feck all to improve infrastructure apart from install millions of meters that will be as much use as the e-voting machines that people find unfair.

Water John

Jayop, that's your list. Everyone can draw up their own list. Their is no objective criteria by which yours is generated.

Jayop

Water John wrote: »

Jayop, that's your list. Everyone can draw up their own list. Their is no objective criteria by which yours is generated.

It's not objective. Do you ever hear people complaining about any of those things apart from the levels at which they are set? Do you see people out on the streets in their tens of thousands because they have to pay VAT?

Lau2976

Arkady wrote: »

Depending on your point of view all governments and their laws are stupid dictat's so why should anyone pay anything ?

Because we have a thing called collective action problems? . We all face common issues because we are part of society, like needing a road. We chose to make a road, to do this we all pay a little and get to use this road. Now some chose not to pay and still use the road and we decide to catch them and punish them. And that's the right thing to do. And when the road gets bad or we need to make new ones we decide we will all pay a little every month to do that. Again some don't and should be punished.

But let's say a new government gets elected and they decide that they're going to keep that road charge and add a new one to do the same thing, but call it something else. Now we face a divide because some people will think that it's wrong to be charged twice for the same thing and that it might just be that the government are going to really use that money for something else, like bailing out some people who made bad choices, and some will say well the government says we should pay so we should. Now the ones who don't agree choose to protest and question their government, which they didn't do before because they accepted that they needed to pay. While others hand over money blindly because they think they should.

Do you see what I'm getting at here? Most people are reasonable in their expectations of what the government will charge them. And they are realistic in their expectations of what they recieve from their government in return. They don't think all taxes are bad just the really bad ones. Like the road tax above that the people are paying twice.

Water John

But that's emotional not objective. Would not the increase in prescription charges, withdrawal of SNA's and home help etc. be far more reasons for public protest?
The tax protests of the late 1970's were massive. Did we do away with income tax?
Refers to Jayop.

xz

Shades of Noonan's comment of "they'll pay, they always do", bet he wished he never said that now

OfflerCrocGod

xz wrote: »

Most other OECD countries don't have the massive level of taxation that we do either

Ireland has one of the lowest tax to GDP % in the OECD https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=REV

xz

Water John wrote:

But that's emotional not objective. Would not the increase in prescription charges, withdrawal of SNA's and home help etc. be far more reasons for public protest? The tax protests of the late 1970's were massive. Did we do away with income tax?

I think you'll find that this one, was the straw that broke the camel's back, given that our LPT payments set up IW, plus the fact the water infrastructure was already being paid for through VAT and Motor Tax increases brought in, in 1997

xz

OfflerCrocGod wrote:

Ireland has one of the lowest tax to GDP % in the OECD

But you'll probably find we have a much lower GDP % than most other OECD

Water John

A lot of changes in taxes and charges since 1997.
We pay less income tax. Motor tax has totally changed.
Lets just say some of these was to offset the 1997 rises, if that keeps you happy.

xz

Water John wrote:

A lot of changes in taxes and charges since 1997. We pay less income tax. Motor tax has totally changed. Lets just say some of these was to offset the 1997 rises, if that keeps you happy.

I give up, you can continue to bend over, but I'm not, good luck getting your refund

Water John

Charges will not be abolished.
Neither FG or FF are for that.
So refund isn't an issue. You can protest at that all you like but charges will stay. they may be suspended or deferred but not abolished. Political reality.

xz

Water John wrote:

Charges will not be abolished. Neither FG or FF are for that. So refund isn't an issue. You can protest at that all you like but charges will stay. they may be suspended or deferred but not abolished. Political reality.

Yes Enda, if you say so

weldoninhio

recylingbin wrote: »

Those of us that paid will just have to content ourselves with the knowledge that our money was well spent on all the upgrades on the water network.
Those of us that didn't will be happy enough to know that they were right all along.

Win win.

You do realise that even if there was 100% compliance that if still would not cover the amount of money it cost to set up IW and pay IW workers, consultants etc. Not one single cent went towards improving any infrastructure.

esforum

xz wrote: »

But you'll probably find we have a much lower GDP % than most other OECD

THat makes no sense whatsover, the level of GDP has no bearing on the taxtation % being lower than other nations. You made an incorrect statement, accept it.

xz wrote: »

I wasn't bullied into paying for that service, nor gas, or telephone etc, etc, I am not against paying for a proper water infrastructure, but not in the way that IW was set up and forced upon us, the idea was good, but the implementation was a complete farce

You could have turned your water off the same as you can cancel your electricity and gas supply.

Theres no difference other than IW is new, electricity bills have always existsed for most of the population.

in fact, none of your arguements make sense

esforum

Arkady wrote: »

You'd think water was a basic requirement to sustain human life they way the whingers talk (as dear leader calls them). Mr Ahern was also right, they should just kill themselves and let us get on with making money from the rest.

The peasants will even complain when our next company Irish Air wins the rights to install, supply and maintain breathing air meters and the billing system. They must think clean air just exists, and requires no real expenditure to supply and maintain.

Last time I checked and that was about 20 seconds ago, the state doesnt spend millions filtering, treating and piping that air into your home.

If you want water without paying, time for the buckets and I would suggest, purification tablets

Ash.J.Williams

I'm pro water conservation and open to water charges, but I cannot pay for that piece of sh1t Irish water....you can't just lump on a charge on water without making cuts to other charges, especially in the worst recession of this generation...it was arrogant and anti working class from the very start....

Water John

I did not vote for EK.
Just because I have a different view to you doesn't put me in any camp.
I believe in water charges and LPT. A broad tax system is NB for the balance and reduced risk to the tax take of the state.

On the other hand IW was a proverbial cock up start to finish.
For example, as I wrote on some thread already, the top 20% of users were scheduled to pay €720/year. the average put out was totally disengenious.

weldoninhio

esforum wrote: »

Last time I checked and that was about 20 seconds ago, the state doesnt spend millions filtering, treating and piping that air into your home.

If you want water without paying, time for the buckets and I would suggest, purification tablets

Bucket and purification tablets?? Sure I can just go in and turn on a tap. Charges are off the table for the next few years. People were told not to pay, but they did. They got burned, unlike the bondholders, get over it.

esforum

Jayop wrote: »

Well that's simply not true at all.

Everyone accepts that you have to pay income tax, no issues there.
Everyone accepts VAT, no issues there.
Everyone accepts road tax, no issues there.
Everyone accepted stamp duty, no issues there.
Everyone accepts duty on fuel and things like alcohol, no issue there.

Plenty of people obkect to road tax and duty on alcohol and cigarettes

Personally I dont agree with VAT and I sure as **** dont agree with the pension levy

esforum

weldoninhio wrote: »

Charges are off the table for the next few years.

they really arent. IW and charges are here to stay

Water John

Yeah, we all make up our own rules. I don't mind paying that but I do not like paying the other one.
If people were objecting to extra taxes. The USC was the obvious target.
It has taken in €4 Bn. Water has taken in peanuts in comparison.

Ogle & co have been totally disengenous, lead people up the garden path for their own ends.

xz

esforum wrote:

THat makes no sense whatsover, the level of GDP has no bearing on the taxtation % being lower than other nations. You made an incorrect statement, accept it.

esforum wrote:

You could have turned your water off the same as you can cancel your electricity and gas supply.

esforum wrote:

Theres no difference other than IW is new, electricity bills have always existsed for most of the population.

esforum wrote:

in fact, none of your arguements make sense

If you want to bend over and accept everything your Government wants you to pay for, and be a good citizen, that's your prerogative, I for one of many, who works, pays my taxes, owns my own home, am not, the last Government lied to us, they came to power under a certain mandate, did the complete opposite of that mandate, blamed the previous Government, who were going to implement the same policies, that they introduced, even though they said they weren't, Labour went into cahoots with Fine Gael, but were warning us against a Fine Gael Government in their election campaign in 2011, I for one, am pissed off being made a fool of by political parties with their, we'll do this, that and the other, and the minute they get into power, do the complete opposite...... The people who really run this country, are the people, the sooner the better the elected representatives realise this the better, we elect them to make the tough decisions, but they shouldn't take us for fools along the way either, the amount of criticism being laid at me on this thread, by, what all I can say is mindless conformists , is crazy, the fact that their are people defending the mess that is IW is mind boggling, yes, I haven't paid, but have always said, in not against paying for water, but, do it right, then I'll pay......... Rant over

Water John

I don't have much to disagree with you on there, dx.
I have paid, but IW is an absolute turkey.
I hope it becomes always held as an example of how not to impose change without consent.

xz

Water John wrote:

I don't have much to disagree with you on there, dx. I have paid, but IW is an absolute turkey. I hope it becomes always held as an example of how not to impose change without consent.

To me, without an argument, is the most intelligent thing you've said that I agree with

Jayop

esforum wrote: »

Plenty of people obkect to road tax and duty on alcohol and cigarettes

Personally I dont agree with VAT and I sure as **** dont agree with the pension levy

No they don't. They complain about having to pay it but they know it has to be paid.

xz

My overall position is, I'm not against water charges per se, but I am against paying then to the entity that is IW, the whole set up and manner of u turns, revelations of what money was being spent on was a farce from the get go, I'm not stupid, water is an essential lifeblood of our planet, and it's made up of 75% of it, but this 75% is not 100% drinkable, and our waste water has to be dealt with, Arklow for example, is a large town, yet there are still no plans for a waste water treatment plant, even though it has been fought for, for years, and no I don't live, or come from Arklow, the moment an entity is set up to deal with our old water infrastructure, and implement a modern one, without a quango feel to it, then I'll be more than happy to pay, but until then, keep wasting paper to bill me, or take legal action against me.

xz

This thread, if not anything, proves, despite our differences, healthy debate, for the most part without descending into name calling, is alive and well, pity our politicians can't debate without getting petty

Water John

Your only problem xz, is that if you go into court and tell the judge that you did not pay your TV licience because you don't like RTE, he won't give you much hearing.

xz

Water John wrote:

Your only problem xz, is that if you go into court and tell the judge that you did not pay your TV licience because you don't like RTE, he won't give you much hearing.

But I have paid my TV license, your name suggests you have something to do with IW, I may be totally wrong, but the general consensus is, even among those who have paid, is that IW is an ill conceived and rushed entity, just to appease the Troika

xz

Water John wrote:

Your only problem xz, is that if you go into court and tell the judge that you did not pay your TV licience because you don't like RTE, he won't give you much hearing.

Just wait until some future Government wants to charge you an O2 charge for the air you breathe, or a Urea or methane charge for going to the toilet, Irish people have accepted every charge thrown at them in the past, with the exception of pensioners who got a u-turn in recent years, why should the water charge protests be any different, the whole set up of IW is flawed, you have to at least admit that..... Oh, you did already, get it right, and then I'll pay, my argument all along

oscarBravo

Jack Killian wrote: »

Are taxes meant to be the same across the EU or not ?

Taxes are not even remotely similar across the EU. Seriously, where do you get this stuff from? You do know that VRT is something like 170% in Denmark?

xz wrote: »

This thread, if not anything, proves, despite our differences, healthy debate, for the most part without descending into name calling, is alive and well, pity our politicians can't debate without getting petty

xz wrote: »

My turn to make an assumption..... There's definitely some Fine Gael party members or IW employees posting on this topic

xz wrote: »

Yes Enda, if you say so

Uh huh.

xz

Oh, you got me there oscarBravo ..... Politics, Sex and religion and Sport debates will always trip you up..... Touche

xz

oscarBravo wrote:

Taxes are not even remotely similar across the EU. Seriously, where do you get this stuff from? You do know that VRT is something like 170% in Denmark?

Yet the final cost of a car is cheaper than in Ireland, even much so that Germans buy BMW'S and Mercedes there, and combined with paying German VRT is still cheaper, heard from the horses mouth from a German company director who bought his car in Denmark

TheRealPONeill

micosoft wrote: »

Effectively FF are proposing to legalise tax evasion on the principle that any tax could at any point in the future be cancelled without recourse for those who have paid said charge and no penalties for those who have not. Why would you pay anything on that basis!.....

Effectively FF are saying this is being made up as they go along.

oscarBravo

xz wrote: »

Yet the final cost of a car is cheaper than in Ireland, even much so that Germans buy BMW'S and Mercedes there, and combined with paying German VRT is still cheaper, heard from the horses mouth from a German company director who bought his car in Denmark

No; the final cost is more expensive there because of the VRT. The pre-tax price is less than it is here, because the manufacturers have to keep the prices low or they'd never sell anything.

Of course Germans buy cars in Denmark - they pay German VRT, not Danish, so they get to take advantage of the lower pre-tax price.

None of which has anything to do with the bizarre idea that taxes are supposed to be the same across the EU, or that we have drastically higher taxes than the OECD average, or that VRT is illegal, or that Irish water is magically different from everybody else's water and can't be billed as a utility like everyone else does.

weldoninhio

oscarBravo wrote: »

No; the final cost is more expensive there because of the VRT. The pre-tax price is less than it is here, because the manufacturers have to keep the prices low or they'd never sell anything.

Of course Germans buy cars in Denmark - they pay German VRT, not Danish, so they get to take advantage of the lower pre-tax price.

None of which has anything to do with the bizarre idea that taxes are supposed to be the same across the EU, or that we have drastically higher taxes than the OECD average, or that VRT is illegal, or that Irish water is magically different from everybody else's water and can't be billed as a utility like everyone else does.

Tax is not meant to be the same. But there is a free trade agreement. VRT takes the pi55 out of that.

A_Sober_Paddy

Thing that annoys me about a lot of the non payers, they say they can't afford it.

yet

the ones I know can still afford to go out once a week amd go abroad for 3 weeks of the year, and spend the other 49 weeks if the year giving out about water charges...I know precisely 3 ppl exactly like this, one of them went to mexico for 10 days in one of those resorts, can't afford water charges me hole

weldoninhio

A_Sober_Paddy wrote: »

Thing that annoys me about a lot of the non payers, they say they can't afford it.

yet

the ones I know can still afford to go out once a week amd go abroad for 3 weeks of the year, and spend the other 49 weeks if the year giving out about water charges...I know precisely 3 ppl exactly like this, one of them went to mexico for 10 days in one of those resorts, can't afford water charges me hole

Ah well if you know precisely 3 people like that then it stands to reason that they must all be at it.

Littlehorny

A_Sober_Paddy wrote: »

Thing that annoys me about a lot of the non payers, they say they can't afford it.

yet

the ones I know can still afford to go out once a week amd go abroad for 3 weeks of the year, and spend the other 49 weeks if the year giving out about water charges...I know precisely 3 ppl exactly like this, one of them went to mexico for 10 days in one of those resorts, can't afford water charges me hole

Is that you Joan?

JustTheOne

A_Sober_Paddy wrote: »

Thing that annoys me about a lot of the non payers, they say they can't afford it.

yet

the ones I know can still afford to go out once a week amd go abroad for 3 weeks of the year, and spend the other 49 weeks if the year giving out about water charges...I know precisely 3 ppl exactly like this, one of them went to mexico for 10 days in one of those resorts, can't afford water charges me hole

We are going down a dangerous road in this country where nowadays once you say you can't afford something you expect to get away with it.

Everyone is jumping on the bandwagon now that people expect a free house and everything paid for for doing nothing.

Sense of personal responsibility is vanishing.

It's not going to end well.

JustTheOne

oscarBravo wrote: »

No; the final cost is more expensive there because of the VRT. The pre-tax price is less than it is here, because the manufacturers have to keep the prices low or they'd never sell anything.

Of course Germans buy cars in Denmark - they pay German VRT, not Danish, so they get to take advantage of the lower pre-tax price.

None of which has anything to do with the bizarre idea that taxes are supposed to be the same across the EU, or that we have drastically higher taxes than the OECD average, or that VRT is illegal, or that Irish water is magically different from everybody else's water and can't be billed as a utility like everyone else does.

Higher taxes?

I thought we actually are quite low on the scale of high taxes.

900,000 working people pay little to no tax.

Water John

My understanding is that constitutionally a law in Ireland cannot be retrospective. Thus you cannot pass a law now, that does away with the obligation to pay for 2015 water. Parliament cannot turn around and say 'oh you haven't paid that bill, but we now let you off'. 2015 water bills cannot be reneged on. No law can be passed to do so.

MrMaki

JustTheOne wrote: »

Higher taxes?

I thought we actually are quite low on the scale of high taxes.

900,000 working people pay little to no tax.

Ireland is more less in the middle when comparing taxes in EU.

You are not right saying that 900.000 pay little or no tax.

Everything is taxed - from our favourite take aways through bread and clothes to cigarettes, alcohol not even mentioning about petrol or diesel.

Arkady

MrMaki wrote: »

Ireland is more less in the middle when comparing taxes in EU.

The Irish tax system is skewed in favour of the wealthy.
The elite pay little or no tax at all in Ireland.

MrMaki wrote: »

Everything is taxed - from our favourite take aways through bread and clothes to cigarettes, alcohol not even mentioning about petrol or diesel.

And who does that hit the hardest, the rich and comfortable, or the working person who just about makes end meet to raise and provide for their family ?

MrMaki

Arkady wrote: »

The Irish tax system is skewed in favour of the wealthy.
The elite pay little or no tax at all in Ireland.



And who does that hit the hardest, the rich and comfortable, or the working person who just about makes end meet to raise and provide for their family ?

Why u ask me? Ask person who wrote that 900.000 people pay no tax.

fxotoole

Arkady wrote: »

The Irish tax system is skewed in favour of the wealthy.
The elite pay little or no tax at all in Ireland.

Nor do the worst off in society. It's the middle class who are shafted.

Carlos Orange

MrMaki wrote: »

Ireland is more less in the middle when comparing taxes in EU.

You are not right saying that 900.000 pay little or no tax.

Everything is taxed - from our favourite take aways through bread and clothes to cigarettes, alcohol not even mentioning about petrol or diesel.

There is no VAT on bread. There is on many things. If I could track it accurately I imagine it isn't that significant relative to what gets taken out of my wages.