No refund for families who have paid water charges

A_Sober_Paddy

A_Sober_Paddy wrote: »

Thing that annoys me about a lot of the non payers, they say they can't afford it.

yet

the ones I know can still afford to go out once a week amd go abroad for 3 weeks of the year, and spend the other 49 weeks if the year giving out about water charges...I know precisely 3 ppl exactly like this, one of them went to mexico for 10 days in one of those resorts, can't afford water charges me hole

These are 3 people who I know who claim they can't afford it...

I know 5-6 others who refuse to pay it out of principal because of the way Irish water was set up, but at least they aren't blowing hot air about not being able to afford.

I also work in a retailer(high price) and its all I hear all day, around election time, was that we can't afford to pay, but you can afford to buy a bag of porridge oats for €3, pumpkin seeds €9, tube of manuka honey €50...that's 61€...buy regular honey and the rest in Dunne's/trsco total price about €10 so people should stop giving out and maybe learn how to shop around....

A_Sober_Paddy

A_Sober_Paddy wrote: »

These are 3 people who I know who claim they can't afford it...

I know 5-6 others who refuse to pay it out of principal because of the way Irish water was set up, but at least they aren't blowing hot air about not being able to afford.

I also work in a retailer(high price) and its all I hear all day, around election time, was that we can't afford to pay, but you can afford to buy a bag of porridge oats for €3, pumpkin seeds €9, tube of manuka honey €50...that's 61€...buy regular honey and the rest in Dunne's/trsco total price about €10 so people should stop giving out and maybe learn how to shop around....

Totally off topic, but I remember reading that more manuka honey is sold every year than was ever produced!

Arkady

Deleted User wrote: »

Totally off topic, but I remember reading that more manuka honey is sold every year than was ever produced!

Sounds just like Irish Water

Bruthal

JustTheOne wrote: »

Higher taxes?

I thought we actually are quite low on the scale of high taxes.

900,000 working people pay little to no tax.

You seem to only see wages as a way of paying tax.

Bruthal

psinno wrote: »

There is no VAT on bread. There is on many things. If I could track it accurately I imagine it isn't that significant relative to what gets taken out of my wages.

Take a pay cut to the no paye level so. Problem solved.

Arkady

Arkady wrote: »

Sounds just like Irish Water

Sure is. Much more water treated and lost into the ground from leaking pipes than ever used. All the more reason to upgrade the infrastructure and get people to pay for what water they use, above a reasonable allowance.

Water John

The cost of the extra water treatment is actually very low. Only problems are, capacity of the plant and the source.
Of course that is no good reason to waste it or not keep the pipes in good repair.

Arkady

Deleted User wrote: »

Sure is. Much more water treated and lost into the ground from leaking pipes than ever used. All the more reason to upgrade the infrastructure and get people to pay for what water they use, above a reasonable allowance.

Yet the actual truth is 50% of the treated water is lost in the mains before it reaches any house connection, and these leaks are being ignored while metering consumers with dodgy meter contracts for your pals. The money has been spent on cosy jobs and cosy contracts for cronies and "consultants", cronie pr companies and spin.

Carlos Orange

Bruthal wrote: »

Take a pay cut to the no paye level so. Problem solved.

I did cut back to working 1 day a week for a year but early retirement isn't really for me. Maybe when I hit the big four o.

Ash.J.Williams

recylingbin wrote: »

Those of us that paid will just have to content ourselves with the knowledge that our money was well spent on all the upgrades on the water network.
Those of us that didn't will be happy enough to know that they were right all along.

Win win.

It wasn't

Ash.J.Williams

Fine Gael were voted in on the premise of "change" Irish water was a monument to all the things we abhorred in politics, cronyism and waste for a start!

hytrogen

The only way I can ever see a refund coming down the road would be a credit in property taxation of the fees paid when the councils re-amalgamate their water works into their authority.. and knowing them lot a fat chance that would ever happen!
Meanwhile I'm happy paying the charges knowing our water infrastructure is getting the maintenance and attention it desperately needs after so many years of FF councillors cocking up their appropriation of funds to it. There in lies the origins of the whole issue!

nhunter100

hytrogen wrote:

The only way I can ever see a refund coming down the road would be a credit in property taxation of the fees paid when the councils re-amalgamate their water works into their authority.. and knowing them lot a fat chance that would ever happen! Meanwhile I'm happy paying the charges knowing our water infrastructure is getting the maintenance and attention it desperately needs after so many years of FF councillors cocking up their appropriation of funds to it. There in lies the origins of the whole issue!

So there were never any councillors of a FG persuasion elected? All FF's fault, election is over dude FG lost.

ThisRegard

nhunter100 wrote: »

So there were never any councillors of a FG persuasion elected? All FF's fault, election is over dude FG lost.

FG, the party with the largest number of elected TDs?

nhunter100

ThisRegard wrote:

FG, the party with the largest number of elected TDs?

Not returned to office = Lost. ; )

esforum

xz wrote: »

If you want to bend over and accept everything your Government wants you to pay for, and be a good citizen, that's your prerogative, I for one of many, who works, pays my taxes, owns my own home, am not, the last Government lied to us, they came to power under a certain mandate, did the complete opposite of that mandate, blamed the previous Government, who were going to implement the same policies, that they introduced, even though they said they weren't, Labour went into cahoots with Fine Gael, but were warning us against a Fine Gael Government in their election campaign in 2011, I for one, am pissed off being made a fool of by political parties with their, we'll do this, that and the other, and the minute they get into power, do the complete opposite...... The people who really run this country, are the people, the sooner the better the elected representatives realise this the better, we elect them to make the tough decisions, but they shouldn't take us for fools along the way either, the amount of criticism being laid at me on this thread, by, what all I can say is mindless conformists , is crazy, the fact that their are people defending the mess that is IW is mind boggling, yes, I haven't paid, but have always said, in not against paying for water, but, do it right, then I'll pay......... Rant over

I this thread anout water or politicians? You talk a lot but say little

Arkady

Arkady wrote: »

Yet the actual truth is 50% of the treated water is lost in the mains before it reaches any house connection, and these leaks are being ignored while metering consumers with dodgy meter contracts for your pals. The money has been spent on cosy jobs and cosy contracts for cronies and "consultants", cronie pr companies and spin.

While I don't dispute the amount lost, I can assure you that pipes are being replaced, especially here in South Tipperary. I've seen it with my own two eyes. I even went to Specsavers and there they were a few miles further up the road on my return, working away like beavers, with no hassle from protesters, peaceful or otherwise!

hytrogen

Well if you must be so politically correct, there were indeed FG's, labour, sinn feinn, PD's, greens, Indy's, AAA-PBP and many other shades of cronies in the councils too that sat on it during their tenure. So my question to you nhunter100 is who was in majority government during the time no money was allocated or spent on the water works when it should have been directed by the government????
Anyway the fact of the matter really is there is a public utility with no direction because it's being influenced by political feuds that are stupidly unsettled.

nhunter100

hytrogen wrote:

Well if you must be so politically correct, there were indeed FG's, labour, sinn feinn, PD's, greens, Indy's, AAA-PBP and many other shades of cronies in the councils too that sat on it during their tenure. So my question to you nhunter100 is who was in majority government during the time no money was allocated or spent on the water works when it should have been directed by the government????

FG cut funding for water provision upon entering government. FG majority government 2011 to 2016.

hytrogen

nhunter100 wrote:

FG cut funding for water provision upon entering government. FG majority government 2011 to 2016.

And prior to 2011 when the EU directive was published and nothing done about it?? Or are our memories that short..

nhunter100

Deleted User wrote:

While I don't dispute the amount lost, I can assure you that pipes are being replaced, especially here in South Tipperary. I've seen it with my own two eyes. I even went to Specsavers and there they were a few miles further up the road on my return, working away like beavers, with no hassle from protesters, peaceful or otherwise!

hytrogen wrote:

And prior to 2011 when the EU directive was published and nothing done about it?? Or are our memories that short..

Are you referring to the Irish exemption that the FG/Lab government failed to renew?

hytrogen

nhunter100 wrote:

Are you referring to the Irish exemption that the FG/Lab government failed to renew?

Still awaiting an answer to my first question to you...

nhunter100

hytrogen wrote:

Still awaiting an answer to my first question to you...

Question was answered, try reading.Good lad.

ancapailldorcha

nhunter100 wrote: »

Not returned to office = Lost. ; )

nhunter100 wrote: »

Question was answered, try reading.Good lad.

This is a forum for serious debate. Please read the charter before posting again.

Jack Killian

Water John wrote: »

My understanding is that constitutionally a law in Ireland cannot be retrospective. Thus you cannot pass a law now, that does away with the obligation to pay for 2015 water. Parliament cannot turn around and say 'oh you haven't paid that bill, but we now let you off'. 2015 water bills cannot be reneged on. No law can be passed to do so.

Tax amnesties ?

Water John

Jack, I thought of that after I posted, but I think the amnesty only applied to cash not declared and unknown to revenue. If revenue, were onto you and were billing you, you could not use the amnesty.
I can see the grey area.

Arkady

Deleted User wrote: »

While I don't dispute the amount lost, I can assure you that pipes are being replaced, especially here in South Tipperary. I've seen it with my own two eyes. I even went to Specsavers and there they were a few miles further up the road on my return, working away like beavers, with no hassle from protesters, peaceful or otherwise!

That's just the same level of repair and replacement the county council provided, only they did it on a lot less money, with a lot less people (ie. cronies, consultants and spin doctors) than Irish water.

Arkady

Arkady wrote: »

That's just the same level of repair and replacement the county council provided, only they did it on a lot less money, with a lot less people (ie. cronies, consultants and spin doctors) than Irish water.

I think not! Council workers are notorious for not overstretching themselves! They may have gotten round to it eventually, I suppose. I've lived in this area for a long time and I've never seen the amount of water works taking place, ever.

nhunter100

Deleted User wrote:

I think not! Council workers are notorious for not overstretching themselves! They may have gotten round to it eventually, I suppose. I've lived in this area for a long time and I've never seen the amount of water works taking place, ever.

I see you love sweeping generalisations, can I assume so that you are a die hard FG'er for whom the party can do no wrong even when they do.

Busterie

The only way to deal with water charges is to have people on welfare, child allowance state pension or public servants produce a statement to say that they have paid water charges or else the amount will be deducted from their payments.
60% of people have paid, 10 to 20% can not be collected from people in rented accommodation who have moved,deceased or emigrated.
So the vast majority of people have paid.
It is outrageous to think those scroungers who didn't pay should get away with it.
Otherwise why should we pay property tax or TV license, when the worst that will happen is you will spend an afternoon in jail.

nhunter100

nhunter100 wrote: »

I see you love sweeping generalisations, can I assume so that you are a die hard FG'er for whom the party can do no wrong even when they do.

Love them or loathe them, you have to admit that the FG/Lab Government did a great job of bringing Ireland back from the brink. I am glad that they did and that I was able to support them.

nice_guy80

All the lads who retired early from the council

Then rehired the following week by IW as consultants and managers!

I'm not blaming the workers, in any system workers will get the benefits for themselves

Someone has to pay for this IW mess

nhunter100

Deleted User wrote:

Love them or loathe them, you have to admit that the FG/Lab Government did a great job of bringing Ireland back from the brink. I am glad that they did and that I was able to support them.

They followed a plan put in place by FF/Troika only when they went off script they royally screwed up.IW was the result and the mess that it is.

Water John

You nailed one issue there, Nice Guy and Hunter you are also correct. Its the blunt method of implementation that opened the door for AAA/PBP.
Universal metering was not the priority.

xz

Busterie wrote:

The only way to deal with water charges is to have people on welfare, child allowance state pension or public servants produce a statement to say that they have paid water charges or else the amount will be deducted from their payments. 60% of people have paid, 10 to 20% can not be collected from people in rented accommodation who have moved,deceased or emigrated. So the vast majority of people have paid. It is outrageous to think those scroungers who didn't pay should get away with it. Otherwise why should we pay property tax or TV license, when the worst that will happen is you will spend an afternoon in jail.

So 40% of us are scroungers ? or are 40% of us just brave enough to say NO, I don't mind paying for a water infrastructure, but I'm not paying IW for it.

weldoninhio

hytrogen wrote: »

The only way I can ever see a refund coming down the road would be a credit in property taxation of the fees paid when the councils re-amalgamate their water works into their authority.. and knowing them lot a fat chance that would ever happen!
Meanwhile I'm happy paying the charges knowing our water infrastructure is getting the maintenance and attention it desperately needs after so many years of FF councillors cocking up their appropriation of funds to it. There in lies the origins of the whole issue!

But your money paid for consultants and John Tierneys €2m pension. If 100% of people paid the charge it would only cover the cost of setting up the company. 100% didn't pay. Im sure John Tierney is happy you paid though.

hytrogen

Sure they cleaned out that pension fund ages ago.. I'll remind him to include ya in his will too yeah? Haha
Anyway sure doesn't water fall freely from the sky like money from trees

gladrags

hytrogen wrote: »

Sure they cleaned out that pension fund ages ago.. I'll remind him to include ya in his will too yeah? Haha
Anyway sure doesn't water fall freely from the sky like money from trees

Water does fall freely from the sky.

Is it supposed to be any other way?

As for money from trees,tell that to the Irish taxpayers,who will pay back billions,for bank debts.

Not to mention paying the crooks hundreds of billions,for their wreckless destruction of their homes via useless mortgages.

jimmycrackcorm

weldoninhio wrote:

Happened when they last tried to being in water charges. I told each and every one of my friends to pay nothing until after the election. Some said it was pointless and paid, others didn't pay and have said they owe me a pint.

Ironic how people won't pay for water but will still pay for a pint.

jimmycrackcorm

nhunter100 wrote:

Ah the scaremongering never ceases.You need to learn the difference between a bill/ charge and taxes it is very relevant. Particularly if you set up a company for eventual privatisation.

This eventual privatisation argument is a scam by Angry Anti All people. If that was the case then where are the protests about the ESB being privatised.

Let's also protest against Gas networks Ireland too. Two birds one stone (throwing)

Water John

You right Jimmy, its a sort of mantra, call to arms, no privatisation.
The reality is privatisation has many forms and in the water and waste water case it comes in the form of Design, Build, Operate (BDO) of plant.
No private co wants to be messing with rubbish pipes.

Ogle & co have their own agenda and its very visible.
Sorry, one would want to be a gomme to fall for it.

Jack Killian

Busterie wrote: »

The only way to deal with water charges is to have people on welfare, child allowance state pension or public servants produce a statement to say that they have paid water charges or else the amount will be deducted from their payments.
60% of people have paid, 10 to 20% can not be collected from people in rented accommodation who have moved,deceased or emigrated.
So the vast majority of people have paid.
It is outrageous to think those scroungers who didn't pay should get away with it.
Otherwise why should we pay property tax or TV license, when the worst that will happen is you will spend an afternoon in jail.

Where did you get those figures from ?

Jack Killian

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Ironic how people won't pay for water but will still pay for a pint.

Ironic how the pros keep using that line even though it has no factual basis whatsoever.

Arkady

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Ironic how people won't pay for water but will still pay for a pint.

Or if you want to put it truthfully instead : People won't pay twice for a pint or twice for water, especially to pay off some private billionaires private debts somewhere, so they can stay billionaires.

Water John

That double pay issue should have been shut off by adjusting other taxes if they wanted to introduce water charges with a lot less hassle.
But then originally they thought they would skin over half a billion extra annually in domestic charges. That was the plan.

Charles Babbage

xz wrote: »

So 40% of us are scroungers ? or are 40% of us just brave enough to say NO, I don't mind paying for a water infrastructure, but I'm not paying IW for it.

That's fine, so long as you do not use water from IW, if you get your water elsewhere then fair enough. If you wilfully just use IW without paying for it then that is theft.

Jack Killian

Charles Babbage wrote: »

That's fine, so long as you do not use water from IW, if you get your water elsewhere then fair enough. If you wilfully just use IW without paying for it then that is theft.

Not fine at all - where is my LPT going, and why ?

Bruthal

Charles Babbage wrote: »

That's fine, so long as you do not use water from IW, if you get your water elsewhere then fair enough. If you wilfully just use IW without paying for it then that is theft.

It's OK, I only want a loan if it. I'll send some back with every flush.

jimmycrackcorm

Arkady wrote:

and yet 50% of treated water continues to leak through supply mains in bulk quantities, long before it gets to any consumers house or meter, far more than the amount of water that ever leaked in any consumers premises.

Without household metering, how can you state that as a fact? I suppose you might suggest people saying that they'd notice a leak from their tap as the answer.

jimmycrackcorm

A mindless conformist, in my opinion, is one who believes the whole water I'd a human right, that we've already paid for water despite ongoing need for infrastructure investment. The mindless conformist refuses to make comparisons to other utilities, and totally ignores the principle of consumer / polluter pays principle.

The non conformist however would suggest that the De facto situation had to change, that's it's not like setting up a corner shop. That charges above existing taxation are required.