New Building in Smithfield shows celtic tiger is back in town.

FreudianSlippers

cgcsb wrote: »

The Glass house is north facing and permanently in the shade anyway.

I wouldn't be too happy if I were them though with that new building!

cgcsb

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I wouldn't be too happy if I were them though with that new building!

It's an office nobody lives in it.

FreudianSlippers

cgcsb wrote: »

It's an office nobody lives in it.

I know that, but the whole thing now stares into the side of a building that's across a narrow enough lane.

cgcsb

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I know that, but the whole thing now stares into the side of a building that's across a narrow enough lane.

Welcome to the City

FreudianSlippers

cgcsb wrote: »

Welcome to the City

:rolleyes: I obviously know that it's a city, but architecturally do you genuinely think someone would make a building with a big glass façade and market it as the Glass House if they thought a big block would be built right outside of it?

It's one thing across a big street, but a tiny lane?!

BeerNut

cgcsb wrote: »

That building did ruin plans for a cycle lane on the quays

How so?

cgcsb

BeerNut wrote: »

How so?

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/cycle-path-plan-diverts-buses-through-apartment-block-1.2328484

cgcsb

I suppose the other option is to demolishe the back buildings behind frank ryans and push the bus lane up coke lane and through to Phoenix street.

cardinal tetra

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

:rolleyes: I obviously know that it's a city, but architecturally do you genuinely think someone would make a building with a big glass façade and market it as the Glass House if they thought a big block would be built right outside of it?

It's one thing across a big street, but a tiny lane?!

It's the entire appeal of the office block. without the bright open space in front of it, they might as well have used a red brick wall instead of glass. you know, like the one it now beautifully looks upon.

Dandelion6

cgcsb wrote: »

I doubt there are empty residential units to be had in Smithfield. The empty business units are also filling up. New retaurant going in and a dentist clinic. Not much left to fill after that.

The former Polish grocery, the unit next to it on Queen Street and around the corner on Thundercut Alley. None of these look like being filled any time soon. Also some of the business units have had planning permission signs in them for years, I wouldn't bet money on anything actually opening there for a while.

Pepe LeFrits

Glass House is a coffee shop now, or at least the bottom two floors are.

Looking at the area on streetview now, it does kind of ruin Glass House (which is unfortunate, it's a nice building). Kind of short sighted from the designers of Glass House if their design is dependent on nobody building on the vacant plot in front of it though.

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

My only complaint about the building is that it's like 3-4 floors too short and as a result looks squat and out of proportion.

As usual. I’m not sure who is responsible for our city being a series of squat buildings but it’s infuriating. Whatever about protecting Georgian Dublin, there are so many areas where we could go much higher but we don’t. Sure, we may have major issues in the city with housing and the knock-on effects associated (transport, traffic, health, social problems), but at least we are ‘protecting’ our skyline.

cgcsb

An Taisce, The Georgian Society and David Norris would have a collective stroke if they seen one iota of modernity within eyeshot of their beloved georgian architecture.

That is why we are all commuting from Kildare. Never mind that the rest of the western world has cities with architecture from all eras mixed together.

Pepe LeFrits

From An Taisce's website:

The economic boom in Dublin was an unprecedented period. With reckless bank lending came an onslaught of over-scaled and over-dense development proposals for over-valued sites in Dublin city centre.

A great defining characteristic of inner-city Dublin is its historic or “human” scale – street after street with a consistent four- to five-storey building scale, occasionally punctuated by larger public buildings and churches - an enviable characteristic for any old city to maintain and worth jealously guarding.

Over-dense? ahhahahaha.

What planet are they on?

cgcsb

They're a relic of DeValera's rural idyllicism.

12Phase

cgcsb wrote: »

I doubt there are empty residential units to be had in Smithfield. The empty business units are also filling up. New retaurant going in and a dentist clinic. Not much left to fill after that.

There are a whole rake of commercial units all down the side streets off the main square. Quite a lot of empty commercial space over there.

I think the issue is that it doesn't really have the footfall to make it attractive to open a shop in.

I think we overestimate Dublin's shopping density enormously. It's not London.

Anything outside the two 'core' shopping districts in and around Grafton Street and Henry Street seems to just wither and die.
Even the density of shopping just a few hundred meters from Grafton Street can be surprisingly low.

Dublin really needs to do something about promoting the broader city centre as a shopping destination. Some kind of rates and parking incentives would help a lot and also ensuring that the isolated shopping districts are connected up.

Getting to Smithfield on foot is a very short, but horrible walk through some pretty scary streets. I know I don't feel comfortable once I get past Caple Street. That whole area around the Four Courts is a total kip.

There's a large abandoned old Motor Tax office, that huge fenced hole in the ground next to the Luas line where a basement was dug and a building never completed and tons of semi-derelict warehousing and then you hit Smithfield which is only OK at best and needs to be finished off.

When you head from Smithfield to Manor Street (which is nice) you have to go through yet more run down, semi-derelict streets e.g. North King Street.

This cuts one area off from the next as people won't walk comfortably between them. You need continuous, well kept, pleasant shopping / restaurant type areas. If there's a big gap, or you have to take a Luas, people just don't go.

I hate to say it, as a Dub myself, but parts of the city centre are *still* in absolutely horrific condition.

We're going on about a shortage of housing, yet there are tons of badly developed / quasi-derelict parts of the city centre that could be renovated providing plenty of over-shop high quality apartments, but for some reason it never happens.

Pepe LeFrits

Doing some googling and it appears 16 storey buildings are allowed in a couple of areas (Docklands, Heuston/Connolly stations, George's Quay) - so why aren't there any?

The IFSC in particular is such a waste.

Everywhere else is restricted to 6 storeys or 4 for the ‘outer’ city. That’s still too restrictive. For example there’s a site they’re building on Hanover St at the moment, it covers a large enough area and it is downhill from Merrion Square, so it could easily be quite tall without spoiling some of the more historic neighbouring areas. Instead it is going to be 4-6 storeys and will have a grand total of 15 apartments. Great.

Pepe LeFrits

12Phase wrote: »

We're going on about a shortage of housing, yet there are tons of badly developed / quasi-derelict parts of the city centre that could be renovated providing plenty of over-shop high quality apartments, but for some reason it never happens.

Apparently DCC can only issue a compulsory purchase order for a site that is officially classified as derelict, and getting buildings classified as derelict is quite difficult. CPOs are difficult to push through also.

… and also it seems (according to Ciaran Cuffe’s website anyway) DCC is sitting on a bunch of vacant or derelict sites itself.

12Phase

Simple: Irrational fear of high buildings and an association with all high buildings being "the Ballymun Flats".

Ireland seems to be incapable of putting the regulations and structure in place to properly manage large apartment complexes (even expensive private ones.) I had the unpleasant experience of living in a Dublin smallish (4 story) apartment block in Dublin 4. I was paying pretty serious money yet it was horribly badly managed.

Our front door was broken for 3 months and nobody fixed it and it resulted in weirdos hanging around in the foyer.

The bins weren't managed properly and regularly blew all over the place.

Some residents even stored rubbish in the corridors.

I rented in Cork and was in, again, a fairly expensive apartment complex which on paper looked fine. Again, no management and crazy parties in several of the apartments near by which were so bad I cut my lease short and moved out.

I literally couldn't sleep about 4 night a week. It was so bad that there were students with megaphones (I am not kidding) shouting off balconies!!!!!!!

No amount of complaints would resolve it: their landlord didn't care, the gardai seemed to be incapable of intervening and the management company was only contactable by fax and never responded.

If you don't put the proper structure and regulations in place, and make it possible to lease long term without messing around, apartment living will never be a viable option here.

"Flats" are always seen as some kind of thing one sneers at or that is a stepping stone to some kind of 'proper house'.
It's a mentality that if we do not get past we will just have sprawl and more sprawl that never gets resolved.

cgcsb

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

Doing some googling and it appears 16 storey buildings are allowed in a couple of areas (Docklands, Heuston/Connolly stations, George's Quay) - so why aren't there any?

They're only allowed on paper and would never actually get permission. The Phibsoboro local area plan permited 2 mid rises one at the children's hospital site and one at the shopping centre site. The children's hospital was refused permission because it could be seen from O'Connoll street and was 'too dominant on the skyline' and the council are now working to reduce the permitted height at the shopping centre to LESS THAN the existing 1960s tower.

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

The IFSC in particular is such a waste.

Everywhere else is restricted to 6 storeys or 4 for the ‘outer’ city. That’s still too restrictive. For example there’s a site they’re building on Hanover St at the moment, it covers a large enough area and it is downhill from Merrion Square, so it could easily be quite tall without spoiling some of the more historic neighbouring areas. Instead it is going to be 4-6 storeys and will have a grand total of 15 apartments. Great.

That's how it works a few dozen apartments for millionaires will be built in the docks, normal people will drive in from Kildare, 3 hours round trip a day. That is the plan as of now.

The unspoken limit of 4/5 storeys means that many small derelict sites in the City cannot be used for housing because a developer would never break even building 5 or 6 apartments with a deep basement car park on an expensive scrap of land.

carlaboi

The sink hole on Church st is owned by the OPW and will house the new family law buildings and children's court. Currently these are spread across the city and the OPW are renting Phoenix House. Word is Dolphin house owners are selling it and want the courts out. The new building in Smithfield is pretty ugly tbh and I cant understand how it got permission especially as the council had plans to run a new cycle lane from the Ashling hotel all the way into town along this very route.

LXFlyer

carlaboi wrote: »

The sink hole on Church st is owned by the OPW and will house the new family law buildings and children's court. Currently these are spread across the city and the OPW are renting Phoenix House. Word is Dolphin house owners are selling it and want the courts out. The new building in Smithfield is pretty ugly tbh and I cant understand how it got permission especially as the council had plans to run a new cycle lane from the Ashling hotel all the way into town along this very route.

It rescued us from the nonsensical plan to re-route buses off the Quays onto a slower route that would have involved additional journey times.

karenalot

carlaboi wrote: »

The sink hole on Church st is owned by the OPW and will house the new family law buildings and children's court.

I was really hoping they would do something nice with that spot, the area badly needs more green space.

Totally Dublin showed a great mockup image of it recently and how it could be used as a water square to retain storm water whilst also providing recreational facilities

newacc2015

karenalot wrote: »

I was really hoping they would do something nice with that spot, the area badly needs more green space.

Totally Dublin showed a great mockup image of it recently and how it could be used as a water square to retain storm water whilst also providing recreational facilities

Another park/square is not what the city needs. Ask any German or American what they think of Dublin. They say it's full of parks, but no one actually uses them. Beside that site, there is the square on Smithfield, a park is 5 mins away in Kings Inn, etc. Why does the area need another park? We need more housing/office space in the city. Not another park with a few benches, where you cant actually do anything in ie cant play football, tennis, running track or basket ball.

How many more parks do we need in the city, that you can actually do anything in other than sit there?

karenalot

newacc2015 wrote: »

Another park/square is not what the city needs. Ask any German or American what they think of Dublin. They say it's full of parks, but no one actually uses them. Beside that site, there is the square on Smithfield, a park is 5 mins away in Kings Inn, etc. Why does the area need another park? We need more housing/office space in the city. Not another park with a few benches, where you cant actually do anything in ie cant play football, tennis, running track or basket ball.

How many more parks do we need in the city, that you can actually do anything in other than sit there?

This is not your average Dublin park and is a copy of one in Rotterdam that " holds a playing area for football, basketball or volleyball, a dance stage, a skate bowl and integrated seating. For the few days of the year in which the pools do fill up with storm water and excess from neighbouring buildings, three differently shaped lakes visually enhance the area". During winter it turns into an ice rink.

With more people then ever wanting to live in the city and gardens becoming smaller or nonexistent, creating useable parks, recreational areas and leafy green outdoor areas are absolutely vital for inner city areas, especially on the northside. While more parks may not be the answer due to space constraints making the area a more desirable place should be a priority.

I worked in Dublin 1 & 7 for years and its depressing. I have friends living there purely for work reasons and they say the same too. The square on Smithfield is mostly concrete and while getting better still has a long way to go. The new building in front of the Glasshouse and what was a nice quirky alley looks like crap. The Art Tunnel, a garden and art display unit was removed so it could be built on. St Michans church (one of the best features of the area IMO) was allowed be surrounded by another courthouse and huge offices that loom over the structure. This is just a small example of 1 of the 2 postcodes. I've also had tourists comment to me that most of our attractions in Dublin seemed to be engulfed by hideous buildings next to them.

We cant remove all the badly thought out buildings so lets not make the same mistakes going forward and lets make good of whats there. Yes we desperately need more housing/offices but that shouldn't mean that every available space in the city centre should automatically be given permission to be taken up by another concrete building. A lot of offices can be moved out to business parks and beyond. We need to build smarter and more efficiently, raising building heights so space can be used for both living, recreational and working in. We need to encourage/fine owners of central derelict buildings to use or lose. We need to create areas that people actually want to hang around in and not just because they have a job around the corner.

There is so much more to the city centre living than getting the developers in and throwing up some apts. We've been there and done that. Dublin 1 should be the most expensive area in the county to live in due to its proximity to everything. Its not. Its needs regeneration.

Studies have been carried out recently which show green areas in Dublin. Make what you will of them but I know which areas I would prefer to work, live in or visit.

http://www.ucd.ie/newsandopinion/news/2016/feb/29/affluentareasofdublincityhavemoretreesandgreenspaces/

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/street-trees-proliferate-in-wealthy-areas-reveals-city-research-1.2552994

newacc2015

karenalot wrote: »

This is not your average Dublin park and is a copy of one in Rotterdam that " holds a playing area for football, basketball or volleyball, a dance stage, a skate bowl and integrated seating. For the few days of the year in which the pools do fill up with storm water and excess from neighbouring buildings, three differently shaped lakes visually enhance the area". During winter it turns into an ice rink.

With more people then ever wanting to live in the city and gardens becoming smaller or nonexistent, creating useable parks, recreational areas and leafy green outdoor areas are absolutely vital for inner city areas, especially on the northside. While more parks may not be the answer due to space constraints making the area a more desirable place should be a priority.

Studies have been carried out recently which show green areas in Dublin. Make what you will of them but I know which areas I would prefer to work, live in or visit.

So we should build a new park instead of making better use of existing parks? There is parks in the suburbs which are totally usable. DCC simply will not allow parks to have a functional issue. Go to the English Garden in Munich on a Summer day and it is filled with tens of thousands of people. Go to the Phoenix park in the Summer and it pretty empty in comparison. The English Garden has beer gardens, horse riding, running tracks etc.

DCC is making apartments have more balconies. Another useful policy IMO is allowing high-rise apartment development. When apartment blocks are a certain size, you can put in fitness centres, meeting rooms, cinema, party rooms etc all in the same building. That is 10 times better than a miserably park which is open for a few hours during the winter. Hines is building a 160 apartment development in the IFSC like this. There is a student accommodation centre in the Liberties with the same idea. These are making an area more desirable, plus the tax payer is not being asked to forgo on developing a site worth tens of millions.

There is areas in Drumcondra with no trees. Does that mean they are a poverty stricken area with crime? No they are actually extremely middle class and quite expensive to buy a house. It was just they were built without trees. Styles of housing change and so do the landscaping. That survey holds no weight

EricPraline

newacc2015 wrote: »

There is areas in Drumcondra with no trees. Does that mean they are a poverty stricken area with crime? No they are actually extremely middle class and quite expensive to buy a house. It was just they were built without trees. Styles of housing change and so do the landscaping. That survey holds no weight

Drumcondra is probably a bad example to make your point. Most of the streets dating from the early 20th century are tree-lined, particular as you move north. Also plenty of green areas remain, Griffith Park and so on, as you move toward the Botanic Gardens. If anything, Drumcondra is an example of why preserving green areas instead of allowing unlimited development creates a pleasant urban environment. However, if you take a trip down Richmond Road, while you'll find higher density, it's also an incredibly depressing environment.

newacc2015

EricPraline wrote: »

Drumcondra is probably a bad example to make your point. Most of the streets dating from the early 20th century are tree-lined, particular as you move north. Also plenty of green areas remain, Griffith Park and so on, as you move toward the Botanic Gardens. If anything, Drumcondra is an example of why preserving green areas instead of allowing unlimited development creates a pleasant urban environment. However, if you take a trip down Richmond Road, while you'll find higher density, it's also an incredibly depressing environment.

You are confusing most of Drumcondra with Glasnevin. A lot of Drumcondra doesnt have trees, as it was built for people with modest income. The areas with tree lined roads, were built for wealthy families. Like how Ballsbridge is tree lined since it was built for rich families. While Irishtown has little trees in comparison.

What is really depressing is a 90mins journey each way, as instead of building apartment blocks in the city. We choose to have random small parks for basically sitting in and forced development into Louth etc. While cities like Munich/NYC place a focus on large parks which are not all over the city like people think Dublin should have. They allow more dense housing in the city and provide transport links to their parks. We have one of the largest parks in Europe right beside the City and people still think we need more parks, basically because it looks good.

FreudianSlippers

newacc2015 wrote: »

You are confusing most of Drumcondra with Glasnevin. A lot of Drumcondra doesnt have trees, as it was built for people with modest income. The areas with tree lined roads, were built for wealthy families. Like how Ballsbridge is tree lined since it was built for rich families. While Irishtown has little trees in comparison.

I don't know that I agree with this. Sure, Drumcondra Road itself isn't the most tree-lined, but move off in either direction (roughly) East or West and there are plenty of trees, not to mention the canal (admittedly it's much nicer as you go NW towards Glasnevin). As you go (roughly) North as EricPraline points out, the level of tree-lined streets increases considerably until you hit Whitehall.

What is really depressing is a 90mins journey each way, as instead of building apartment blocks in the city. We choose to have random small parks for basically sitting in and forced development into Louth etc. While cities like Munich/NYC place a focus on large parks which are not all over the city like people think Dublin should have. They allow more dense housing in the city and provide transport links to their parks. We have one of the largest parks in Europe right beside the City and people still think we need more parks, basically because it looks good.

I agree with you on this point. I think we have a few key areas that should be built up on the Northside alone - this nonsense about architectural heritage is (mostly) bull**** on the Northside. If people really felt like protecting beautiful buildings, North Circular Road from the Park to Phibsboro wouldn't be the kip that it is, nor would Marlborough Street & Gardiner Street be left to rot between junkies in the former and hostels in the latter.

cgcsb

Another park at Smithfield is a waste. Smithfield it's self is a huge open square and it's seldom very busy. Even now the northern end of the square is covered in grass...and litter and dog crap. Building a new park down the southern end is madness when the square it's self has plenty of space for recreation. Ordinary folk have to commute from Kildare because they can't afford the scarce few millionaire apartments in the City.

FreudianSlippers

There is a shortage of apartments and office space in the city and people are seriously discussing turning prime location into another bloody park. :facepalm: