GRPAI

BattleCorp

Looks like there is a new player in town.

http://grpai.ie/ or www.grpai.ie

goz83

Nasty website. Jumpy and lacking in info. Like the logo though...nice and simple.

Looks like a familiar name in there

Cass

Is this a renaming of the NASRPC?

If not then i wonder how the NASRPC feel about this:

GRPAI Website wrote:

The Gallery Rifle & Pistol Association of Ireland is the National Governing Body (NGB) for Gallery Rifle & Pistol Target Shooting sports in Ireland.

Because according to the NASRPC's website they are:

NASRPC Website wrote:

The NASRPC is the National Governing Body for a range of target shooting disciplines in Ireland, including Gallery Rifle, Precision Pistol & Sporting Rifle.

Has there been a handing over of the torch? Do we have another NGB or is it self titled?

With no assocaition to clubs or ranges (from their own website):

GRPAI Website wrote:

The GRPAI is not an association of clubs and we do not represent clubs. We work closely with Target Shooting clubs and other organisations in order to promote and develop our sports

How can they be an NGB? How can they represent clubs and ranges that they ahve no association to?

BattleCorp

Cass wrote: »

Is this a renaming of the NASRPC?

I don't know much about it but it's not a renaming of the NASRPC.

Totally different committee.

Cass

So it's a direct competitor to the NASRPC?

Is this fallout from the last few months of crap?

I'm not up on the names of the people involved. Were they involved in the NASRPC?

I'm still trying to get my head around a new group, with no affiliation to clubs, no history, and no mandate from the FSAI/ISC claiming to be the NGB for a sport that already has an NGB.

goz83

Well, whoever they are, they used the same awful website design/designer. Both are wordpress sites and bot are terribly put together, using the same theme and copycat logo.

BattleCorp

Cass wrote: »

So it's a direct competitor to the NASRPC?

Not sure. Looks like it .

I'm not up on the names of the people involved. Were they involved in the NASRPC?

Most of the committee are or were on the NASRPC international team. All very good shooters.

BattleCorp

NASRPC just posted a statement complaining about the new organisation claiming to have NGB status for Gallery Rifle.

Cass

Figured as much.

NGB status is not something awarded to yourself.

Have to wonder if the site is a pure piss take and an attempt to provoke a reaction. Seriously the notion of making up a new group, calling yourself an NGB and thinking it'll be taken seriously is laughable. Also i'm not computer literate so someone might explain why it says test in the header bar.

I know what it is, someone got confused and thought it was April 1st. A month early guys.

The quick way to find out is to contact the guys listed as "Directors" and asking.

BattleCorp

Cass wrote: »

Figured as much.

NGB status is not something awarded to yourself.

Have to wonder if the site is a pure piss take and an attempt to provoke a reaction. Seriously the notion of making up a new group, calling yourself an NGB and thinking it'll be taken seriously is laughable. Also i'm not computer literate so someone might explain why it says test in the header bar.

I know what it is, someone got confused and thought it was April 1st. A month early guys.

The quick way to find out is to contact the guys listed as "Directors" and asking.

I'm going to look stupid if it's a piss take but as far as I'm aware it's genuine.

Cass

Look, its hard to tell when something is real and when it's not.

If its real then its still a laugh (to someone on the outside) because of the absurdity of it.

If its a piss take then someone has too much time on their hands and on a serious note is actively trying to disrupt the NASRPC.

Out of curiosity how did you come across it? Was it sent to you? If you found it, what made you look for something like this?

BattleCorp

Cass wrote: »

Out of curiosity how did you come across it? Was it sent to you? If you found it, what made you look for something like this?

I saw a link to it on Facebook. I got a few messages from fellow club members asking about it too.

BillBen

I think it was only a matter of time before something new was set up. After all there was and is a lot of disharmony with the Nasrpc as it stands. I personally know one of the guys on the committee and know he wouldn't put his name to something if it was not legitimate.

Sparks

Pretty much anyone can call themselves an NGB - but the actual recognition of a body as the NGB comes down to things like who the ISC, OCI, and the international body for that sport actually recognise as being the NGB. Those bodies have specific procedures for how the NGB recognition gets transferred, you can't just set up a new body and get it automatically. And taking it over in an adversarial situation... well, "messy" pretty much describes it. We've seen this before not that long ago (ironically, some of the NRPAI's current committee will be familiar with that example).

BattleCorp

Sparks wrote: »

Pretty much anyone can call themselves an NGB - but the actual recognition of a body as the NGB comes down to things like who the ISC, OCI, and the international body for that sport actually recognise as being the NGB. Those bodies have specific procedures for how the NGB recognition gets transferred, you can't just set up a new body and get it automatically. And taking it over in an adversarial situation... well, "messy" pretty much describes it. We've seen this before not that long ago (ironically, some of the NRPAI's current committee will be familiar with that example).

My head hurts from reading this and the other thread that you highlighted.

Too many letters: NASRPC, GRPAI, NRAI, ISC, OCI, NGB, NRPAI, SSAI, MNSCI, NRARI, ICFRA, DCRA, NRAUK, LRRAI, LLRA etc. etc. etc. Apologies if I've left any other organisations out, it wasn't done on purpose. I'm just losing the will to live trying to keep up with so many organisations.

Seriously, does it take that many organisations to organise a sport that's pretty much about trying to hit a piece of paper with a piece of lead?

Sparks

BattleCorp wrote: »

My head hurts from reading this and the other thread that you highlighted.

Welcome to my normal state of mind.

Too many letters: NASRPC, GRPAI, NRAI, ISC, OCI, NGB, NRPAI, SSAI, MNSCI, NRARI, ICFRA, DCRA, NRAUK, LRRAI, LLRA etc. etc. etc. Apologies if I've left any other organisations out, it wasn't done on purpose. I'm just losing the will to live trying to keep up with so many organisations.
Seriously, does it take that many organisations to organise a sport that's pretty much about trying to hit a piece of paper with a piece of lead?

Yes and no and no.
Working backwards; it's not one sport, any more than golf, rugby, tennis and soccer are one sport just because they involve a ball and a bit of grass. So the idea that we'd have just one organisation kindof has a big problem from the get go (and the amount of politics the Irish Sports Council actually created by not acknowledging that is responsible for a few wasted man-centuries at this stage). So I don't mind there being a few different organisations (especially since several of those ones you listed are actually from other countries or are state agencies rather than sports bodies).

And no, we don't need that many; a few of those were originally competing for NGB status but have since been rolled into one another (and a few renamed under... dubious circumstances, like the NRPAI becoming the SSAI - and then becoming the FSAI and then basically dying off as soon as it became work rather than politics).

And yes, we need a few more than you'd think we'd need, mainly because sports grew organically rather than being organised on one day from the top down. And a lot of the ones we have now can't be combined into other groups for various reasons. For example, the Pony club tetrathlon group are part of the Pony Club who are part of Equestrian Ireland - they can't get absorbed into a shooting body because there's not a lot of point in doing that with the amount of crossover involved (we help train them, they're not isolated or anything, but organisationally it makes sense for them the way they are now). The NTSA and MPAI and ICPSA can't merge for reasons on the international level (the NTSA and ICPSA are recognised individually by the ISSF but if either was ever to merge into another body, the recognition would devolve to the other body in its entirity because the ISSF don't want more than one ISSF NGB in a country; and the MPAI are recognised by the UIPM so they're in a whole other olympic group at that level so merging makes no sense for them either). And so on.

Thing is, there's complicated-for-reasons-beyond-our-control, and there's complicated-for-no-good-reason. We definitely have too much of the latter.


(And when you have all that in your head and giving you a headache, turn round and look at the Firearms Act again. And then remember the work "feminax" because it's what you're going to need to ask the chemist for )

Cass

Any update on this?

Cass

Need to join this Facebook thing (i think it could take off ).

They have their own FB page, but i don't see any answers. Still claiming to be an NGB, even though they're not.

What i don't get is some of their comments.

They claim to represent shooters and support the NASRPC. Well splitting an existing NGB is not helpful. Also on the back of all the crap recently with the NASRPC is seems to be a throw the dummy out of the pram and take your football home.

As a non NGB, no range of their own (unless they have the backing of some range already) how can they provide training to new shooters? Surely the NASRPC would not allow this on affiliated clubs. So that raises the question will clubs split of form the NASRPC?

If they take Gallery and pistol off the NASRPC what is there left that would warrant the existence of the NASRPC?

I ask this as a non member of the NASRPC (or the GRPAI) and as an opponent of past actions by the NASRPC i don't think anyone can accuse me of being biased towards them.

gunny123

Keep an eye on the facebook page, they will probably being doing a solo run to the minister looking to take over licencing of rifles used in gallery. It wouldn't be the first time, this was done.

Cass

You have to understand something. I know nothing about the internal politics of the NASRPC/GRPAI or whatever other group pops up.

The questions i'm asking are out of curiosity and a want to understand what is happening and why. On the last three threads about the NASRPC i, other than in a mod capacity, stayed out of it as it did not involve me. That is not to say i was disinterested in what was happening.

Same here.

Witcher

Cass wrote: »

They claim to represent shooters and support the NASRPC. Well splitting an existing NGB is not helpful. Also on the back of all the crap recently with the NASRPC is seems to be a throw the dummy out of the pram and take your football home.

As a non NGB, no range of their own (unless they have the backing of some range already) how can they provide training to new shooters? Surely the NASRPC would not allow this on affiliated clubs. So that raises the question will clubs split of form the NASRPC?

It's really no different than the benchrest situation; the NRBAI are completely seperate, run their own training/matches, give their own awards, have their own leaderboards and push the development of benchrest and encourage participation in NASRPC matches. Hasn't affected the NASRPC in any way. The current chairman of the NASRPC also set up the WA1500 Assoc. of Ireland a few years ago seperate to the NASRPC.

Look at it this way, if the GRPAI has the support of the captains of the GR national team and it's committee has several national championship winners...as decided a few weeks ago in HH, then there must be support out there for something like this.

Cass

Right, bear with me. The NASRPC are the NGB for:

• Pistol
• Gallery
• Benchrest
• Sporting rifle

This does not prohibit others from running competitions but when it comes to national/international events the NASRPC are the recognised body for the sports.

You say the NBRAI are basically the same thing. Well the NRBAI, according to their website, are an association whose agenda is to push Benchrest shooting in conjunction with the NASRPC. Association being the key word. They are not an NGB, and as far as i can determine do not claim to be which means the NASRPC still govern the sport. Also as they still work with and under the governance of the NASRPC the NASRPC remain the NGB.

If you say the GRPAI want to do the same thing then that is a matter for the NASRPC and not for me to say whether its a good idea or not. However they are not saying they are an association, they are claiming to be the NGB for the sports.

If they were to take the NGB status for Gallery & Pistol then the NASRPC would loose it or no longer be it as you cannot have two bodies being the NGB for one sport/discipline. So you'd have the GRPAI as the NGB for Gallery & Pistol which would leave the NASRPC as a new group called the NASRC.


Also this issue cannot be solved between the two groups. As Sparks outlined earlier, and to repeat for clarity, to become an NGB there are a number of steps that MUST be taken, it's not a quick process, and it involves other departments/bodies including Government bodies. These include (but not limited to):

1. Applying to the International Governing body
2. "Fighting" to have the NGB status removed from the current group
3. Contacting the Irish Sports Council to register/validate their status

So have the GRPAI done any of this? Has anyone contacted them to ask?

I know they haven't so the question is why come out and say they are the NGB? Is it to provoke a reaction? Is it for the shock effect?

The people on the GRPAI committee, according to everyone and themselves, are experienced lads that once held committee positions on the NASRPC so they know its not just as simple as say something and it's so.

I'm trying to understand the reason behind this planned, yet secret, break away from the NASRPC, and its timing given recent events.

Witcher

Cass wrote: »

Right, bear with me. The NASRPC are the NGB for:

• Pistol
• Gallery
• Benchrest
• Sporting rifle

This does not prohibit others from running competitions but when it comes to national/international events the NASRPC are the recognised body for the sports.

You say the NBRAI are basically the same thing. Well the NRBAI, according to their website, are an association whose agenda is to push Benchrest shooting in conjunction with the NASRPC. Association being the key word. They are not an NGB, and as far as i can determine do not claim to be which means the NASRPC still govern the sport. Also as they still work with and under the governance of the NASRPC the NASRPC remain the NGB.

If you say the GRPAI want to do the same thing then that is a matter for the NASRPC and not for me to say whether its a

NRBAI are the NGB for benchrest here, recognised by the ERABF/WRABF.

We'll have to wait and see what the IGRF have to say about it all but when they see some of the top shooters in the country looking to form a group seperate to the NASRPC they'll be asking the NASRPC what's going on.

Cass

Strider wrote: »

NRBAI are the NGB for benchrest here, recognised by the ERABF/WRABF.

Then why are the NASRPC stating on their website that they are the NGB for Benchrest?

If they are two separate entities/groups both cannot hold the NGB status for the same discipline. If the NBRAI is an umbrella association of the NASRPC then it's the NASRPC that gold the NGB status.

We'll have to wait and see what the IGRF have to say about it all but when they see some of the top shooters in the country looking to form a group seperate to the NASRPC they'll be asking the NASRPC what's going on.

You haven't answered my other question though. Why are the GRPAI calling themselves the NGB for Gallery rifle & Pistol shooting when they're not?

As i've said i'm not a member, but from an outside perspective it seems that with recent events over, people now on the "outside" are not happy and are seeking to regain control by splitting the NGB they previously governed into another group that they will govern and leaving the new committee with a smaller, lesser, NGB for whatever is left.

Witcher

Cass wrote: »

Then why are the NASRPC stating on their website that they are the NGB for Benchrest?

If they are two separate entities/groups both cannot hold the NGB status for the same discipline. If the NBRAI is an umbrella association of the NASRPC then it's the NASRPC that gold the NGB status.


You haven't answered my other question though. Why are the GRPAI calling themselves the NGB for Gallery rifle & Pistol shooting when they're not?

As i've said i'm not a member, but from an outside perspective it seems that with recent events over, people now on the "outside" are not happy and are seeking to regain control by splitting the NGB they previously governed into another group that they will govern and leaving the new committee with a smaller, lesser, NGB for whatever is left.

Where arr the NASRPC saying they're the NGB for benchrest?

The NRBAI is completely seperate to the NASRPC.

The front page of the NASRPC website says; 'The NASRPC is the National Governing Body for a range of target shooting disciplines in Ireland, including Gallery Rifle, Precision Pistol & Sporting Rifle.'

I don't know why they're calling themselves an NGB, I have nothing to do with them or GR as a whole.

Cass

Strider wrote: »

Where arr the NASRPC saying they're the NGB for benchrest?

Its on their website under "Our Disciplines".

Remember i'm not attacking here, i'm asking questions. As an NGB i'd assume any disciplines they list are ones they Govern. If they are not the NGB and as you say:

Strider wrote:

The NRBAI is completely seperate to the NASRPC.

Then fair enough. I was under the impression the NASRPC was NGB for it.

I don't know why they're calling themselves an NGB, I have nothing to do with them or GR as a whole.

That is all i'm asking. Why call yourselves an NGB for a discipline when you're not.

The confusion above about the NASRPC being the NGB for BR is now clearer to me. It arose form the NASRPC listing BR as a discipline and me knowing they are an NGB. Coupled with the NRBAI website not stating categorically that they hold NGB status for BR.

However in the issue between the NASRPC and GRPAI both are claiming it evne though the NASRPC has held it for years and the GRPAI have made no legit inroads into getting it.

Boxer1

Cass wrote:

As i've said i'm not a member, but from an outside perspective it seems that with recent events over, people now on the "outside" are not happy and are seeking to regain control by splitting the NGB they previously governed into another group that they will govern and leaving the new committee with a smaller, lesser, NGB for whatever is left.

I think everyone is missing the elephant in the room. What do the Gallery rifle shooters think ????? . Pied piper syndrome GRPAI I don't think so. Committee names removed from web site ??? I have spoken to numerous exsperinced gallery rifle shooters and they are against any move away from the NASRPC. WA1500 was formed with the full support of the NASRPC back in the day GRPAI committee members should be able to confirm this. I for one am quite happy with the NASRPC as is this is nothing only sour grapes.

goz83

On the NEWS page of the GRPAI website, they say "The National Association of Sporting Rifle and Pistol Clubs have been caretakers for Gallery Rifle in Ireland for the past few years and we would like to thank them for what they have achieved to date and we wish them well with their objectives going forward."

So, maybe there's something to that. Released March 3rd.

Might be worth reading the whole news article.

Cass

So they are seeking to separate themselves, officially form the NASRPC?

This brings me back to my points above. They have no mandate to be an NGB, but are claiming it. They will, if granted it, change the NASRPC from it's current format back to the NASRC. So if successful in being granted NGB status the GRPAI would not be able to work closely with the NASRPC as there will no longer be an NASRPC.

Then there is the issue of revenue. How much of the NASRPC's yearly revenue comes from pistol and gallery comps/shooting compared to what would be left? Namely some informal BR and sporting rifle. As was pointed out to me above they are not the NGB for BR, so it's informal shoots and people may steer more towards the official NGB for it which leaves sporting rifle.

Cass

Never got to speak to the lads yesterday about this. Was having a little too much fun, but there were lads i could have spoken to, to get more information on it.

Has anyone else gotten anything more?

BillBen

Cass wrote: »

Never got to speak to the lads yesterday about this. Was having a little too much fun, but there were lads i could have spoken to, to get more information on it.

Has anyone else gotten anything more?

This won't answer your question but I believe the IGRF have written to both the Nasrpc and GRPAI telling them that they do not recognise either of them at the moment as being the NGB for gallery rifle and pistol and have even asked Harbour House to host and run the international this year. Basically they have been told to sort it out between themselves