GRPAI

hermes2011

lets look at this so called 'Conspiracy theory', I said that GRPAI had met months before the NASRPC AGM answer from a GRPAI supporter 'yes we had'. I said they had sounded out support in three clubs answer from GRPAI supporter 'yes they had'. I said they had looked for support from national RSO's answer from GRPAI supporter 'yes they had'. and it goes on and on. ITs not a conspiracy its the truth. I still have got no answers from them, GRPAI, when I asked 'How can you elect a committee with no members, so their committee has to be self appointed Truth. How can you speak for members when ya have none. Truth. Are there ex members of NARSPC (old Committee) who took part in the formation of GRPAi, and the GRPAI supporter replied 'yes'. so theres more truth.

BillBen

The following is the true version of events from the meeting held on Saturday 17th April 2016 at Harbour House between the NASRPC and the Gallery Rifle Squad.
The event was organised by both Team Captains and was agreed with the NASRPC. The NASRPC had offered to make presentations to the Squad regarding proposals for international team training and coaching in the areas of mental performance.

Following a 60 shot match and a 1500 match, all present attended a presentation led by Declan Keogh who made a presentation regarding NASRPC support for the International teams travelling to Bisley. Declan then introduced Nicholas Flood and Frank Feeney who both made brief presentations outlining their background and experience and how they could assist the International Teams to improve their competitive performance. These presentations were well received by the squad members present. Following those presentations all present were asked to take a short break and that only squad members would return to the room for a further presentation.

When the squad members returned to the room, Pat Grimes the recently selected National Discipline Coordinator (NDC) introduced his new role and responsibilities, which includes the following:

Squad members to communicate directly with NDC. One squad member mentioned that under the GR criteria the squad usually communicates with the Team Captains.

NDC will assist Team Captains with the Team selection for International Matches, making particular note that while the Leaderboard is used to select Team members that “circumstances” will also be used as a selection criteria.

It was noted that during the week, there had been major developments in terms of communications from the Team Captains

The NDC then read from a pre-written statement.

There had been some conversations during the past week with the Team Captains and another squad member by telephone and email. He had received several emails from one squad member, to inform the NDC that he had accepted the position of temporary captain of the CF team for Bisley as appointed by the Team Captain Martin Hayes as Martin is not attending Bisley. The NDC does not agree with this and will not accept it.

The NASRPC Committee have returned a prompt decision on this matter which states that the CF team shall select their own captain to represent them and the NASRPC at the Team Meeting the evening before the international.

The NASRPC Committee has also informed the NDC that all selection criteria for Captains and Teams shall be examined by the Committee.

The NASRPC have requested that those involved in the GRPAI to drop their false claim on NGB status. The Secretary of the GRPAI has already confirmed to the Chairman of the NASRPC that this will not happen. The NASRPC then convened a meeting to discuss the matter, the committee has asked the NDC to bring the following to our attention and to be the conduit for their decision.

Unless all members of the GRPAI renounce their false claim on being the NGB of our sport and remove that statement from all media sources and recognise the NASRPC as the only NGB, we will take their refusal or silence as their resignation from the NASRPC Gallery Rifle squad effective immediately.

This caused much objection from the squad members present.

Mark Nolan spoke on behalf of the GRPAI and stated that they refuse to renounce the claim to be NGB for Gallery Rifle & Pistol sports, we strive to become recognised as the NGB and we have significant support with the GR squad and our clubs and also internationally. We plan to continue with our aims and goals, which include competitions and training. It may take a long time for international recognition but we will maintain our goal to achieve that.

Mike Nestor commented that we claim to be striving to become the NGB as opposed to actually being an NGB. Mark Nolan replied to state that we are recognised as an NGB if sufficient members of the squad and shooting community choose to recognise us so therefore we will claim to be an NGB but the point is that we are working towards international recognition.

The NDC asked a question to Mark Nolan if the GRPAI recognise the NASRPC as your executive committee, Mark stated that the GRPAI have already stated that they recognise the NASRPC extensively.

Mike Nestor asked why should there be a second organisation which would only cause a split. Mark Nolan answered, stating that the NASRPC should be recognised as an association of clubs and is a valuable entity. The Benchrest are a separate NGB as do are every other shooting group in the country except Gallery Rifle & Pistol. All the GRPAI seeks to do is to have Gallery Rifle & Pistol recognised as a separate group in the same manner as WA1500, Benchrest, Long Range, Silhouettes, etc.

Mike Nestor asked if the GRPAI get NGB status, what would then become of the NASRPC – Mark Nolan replied that the NASRPC should remain a very valuable and viable association of clubs, running National Championships, a competition calendar that the GRPAI have already offered to support and that the GRPAI would like to work in conjunction with the NASRPC just like the Benchrest do for example.

It was explained by squad members present that the NASRPC became the NGB by default, that the SSAI were originally the NGB and when SSAI were disbanded, the NASRPC became the NGB by default.

Declan Keogh stated that the teams needs to travel to Bisley, and those Teams must represent only the NASRPC. The GRPAI claiming NGB status is a big problem, there was an offer to take down that claim and that the NASRPC would then start dialogue. Mark Nolan said that the GRPAI were willing to have talks but with no preconditions on either side but that had already been refused.

It was suggested that the best shooters will now not be on the team, that only the shooters who recognise only the NASRPC will be on the team. The NDC confirmed that is 100% correct.

Declan Keogh stated to the squad that the squad is being asked to state our allegiance to either the NASRPC or the GRPAI.

It was pointed out that the NASRPC cannot provide GR teams for Bisley with the people that are travelling as the top shooters will not be allowed to shoot. The NDC confirmed that might be an issue.

One squad member asked if he chooses to remain silent on the issue, that it appears that he cannot shoot for Ireland – the NDC confirmed that is correct as per the NASRPC statement.

The NDC then suggested his personal view, which is to defer this until after Bisley, but is carrying out the job he was asked to do. It was admitted that this decision causes an issue but it is too close to Bisley to enact it.

The squad were not happy with that suggestion as the threat has been made, remains and it is too late to take it back now. The NDC confirmed that is his personal view to defer it until after Bisley.

It was again suggested that because of this directive, we do not have any teams and the NDC agreed 100%.

Squad members suggested that they are happy to recognise both organisations but that the GRPAI is necessary, particularly because the NASRPC is now interfering with Squad and Team rules and criteria.

Mark Nolan called for 2 votes as follows:
A motion of confidence in both Team Captains – this was passed by a clear majority
A motion of no confidence in the NASRPC committee because of their statement and recent behaviour – this was refused by the committee and was shouted down, although a majority of squad members present supported it.

Tackleberry.

Says who? you BillBen??

BillBen

Say the people that were there.

BattleCorp

BillBen wrote: »

Say the people that were there.

Were you at the meeting?

Tackleberry.

BillBen wrote: »

Say the people that were there.

So you where at the meeting? All of it ? Or just the first meeting?

Tackleberry.

hermes2011 wrote: »

lets look at this so called 'Conspiracy theory', I said that GRPAI had met months before the NASRPC AGM answer from a GRPAI supporter 'yes we had'. I said they had sounded out support in three clubs answer from GRPAI supporter 'yes they had'. I said they had looked for support from national RSO's answer from GRPAI supporter 'yes they had'. and it goes on and on. ITs not a conspiracy its the truth. I still have got no answers from them, GRPAI, when I asked 'How can you elect a committee with no members, so their committee has to be self appointed Truth. How can you speak for members when ya have none. Truth. Are there ex members of NARSPC (old Committee) who took part in the formation of GRPAi, and the GRPAI supporter replied 'yes'. so theres more truth.

That's because there not anything else other then a company set up to make money, I guess somewhere down the road charges will applied to the training they offer, self appointed with with a hidden agenda.

BattleCorp

Tackleberry. wrote: »

That's because there not anything else other then a company set up to make money, I guess somewhere down the road charges will applied to the training they offer, self appointed with with a hidden agenda.

I'm trying as much as possible to keep an open mind on all of this but I have to say that the above comment isn't fair.

You are right, the GRPAI are self appointed. They got together and set up the organisation themselves. But I'd guess that's how lots of organisations get started. They aren't a few lads with no support either. Plenty of shooters support them.

Their agenda isn't hidden either. They have clearly stated that they want to develop and promote shooting and want NGB status.

Your first point is what I have a problem with though. How can you say that they are a company set up to make money? You have absolutely no evidence of that whatsoever.

Tackleberry.

BattleCorp wrote: »

I'm trying as much as possible to keep an open mind on all of this but I have to say that the above comment isn't fair.

You are right, the GRPAI are self appointed. They got together and set up the organisation themselves. But I'd guess that's how lots of organisations get started. They aren't a few lads with no support either. Plenty of shooters support them.

Their agenda isn't hidden either. They have clearly stated that they want to develop and promote shooting and want NGB status.

Your first point is what I have a problem with though. How can you say that they are a company set up to make money? You have absolutely no evidence of that whatsoever.

Is this or is this not a company, and why is it set up as a company..?
I'd like to know why?

http://www.solocheck.ie/Irish-Company/Gallery-Rifle-And-Pistol-Association-Of-Ireland-Company-Limited-By-Guarantee-578589

IRLConor

Tackleberry. wrote: »

Is this or is this not a company, and why is it set up as a company..?
I'd like to know why?

http://www.solocheck.ie/Irish-Company/Gallery-Rifle-And-Pistol-Association-Of-Ireland-Company-Limited-By-Guarantee-578589

Probably for the same reasons the ICPSA, NTSA, NARGC, NRAI and many other sporting organisations do it.

BattleCorp

Tackleberry. wrote: »

Is this or is this not a company, and why is it set up as a company..?
I'd like to know why?

http://www.solocheck.ie/Irish-Company/Gallery-Rifle-And-Pistol-Association-Of-Ireland-Company-Limited-By-Guarantee-578589

My local soccer and boxing clubs are limited companies too. And while they need money to keep going, they aren't really money making organisations.

Sparks

Tackleberry. wrote: »

Is this or is this not a company, and why is it set up as a company..?
I'd like to know why?
http://www.solocheck.ie/Irish-Company/Gallery-Rifle-And-Pistol-Association-Of-Ireland-Company-Limited-By-Guarantee-578589

Because that's how NGBs are supposed to be set up according to pretty much everyone who's ever been involved in them and seen how things can go sideways?

"Company" in Irish corporate law does not mean what it means in common language. It's a legal framework; not a statement about making a profit. All charities are legally companies, for example. It creates a seperate legal entity from the members of the company so that assets can be held independently of any one individual. For example, NGB assets like electronic targets can be held as the property of the NGB itself, not as the personal property of one member who's donating them at the time (but who could be hit by a bus the next day and then the ownership of the assets falls to their spouse who may then sell them off to pay for funeral costs).

That's not to say that all dogs are poodles, you understand; just to point out that not all beagles are dogs.

Sparks

Also, this.

And also, the fact that the NASRPC is not a company? That's actually something that should be changed. Right now they're legally what's called an unincorporated association, and that has a lot of disadvantages for an NGB. At club level, eh, you can usually get by in a small club for a long while, but even in larger clubs, in most sports they incorporate. But at NGB level, it's terrible for a lot of reasons. A quick and incomplete list:

• NGB assets do not belong to the NGB or the members whose dues paid for them, they belong to whatever board member physically bought them. If that board member wants to sell them, only social pressures can be brought to bear to dissuade them, there would be very little that could be done legally without a great deal of expense (whereas if Joe Blogs tries to sell off the assets of Tiddlywinks Ireland, ltd, that's called theft and it gets very readily stopped by the nice men in blue uniforms).
• The NGB lacks internal structure beyond what the current board is self-motivated to impose. Don't want to hold an EGM or AGM? It's an unincorporated association, they don't need to hold those, there's no way for the members to force the board to enforce them. With an incorporated NGB, there are a (small) set of things that must happen every year (an AGM, filing of accounts with the CRO, and so on - auditing the accounts is not one of those things by the way, that tends to happen because of other reasons), and the company can be held to its articles by the members through the companies act if needs be (yes, it's expensive and not done very often, but it *does* happen and a difficult to exercise option is better than no option at all).
• It's not seen as being a proficiently-run body by other bodies like the ISC and international governing bodies.
• It never lasts longer than the lifetime of individual board members. It's a sad thing, but we die. Companies don't. You want your NGB to last longer than you do? Incorporate it and put the ethos into the articles. It might be changed down the line, but the change will be deliberate and the result of the members voting on it; not someone having a whim on a tuesday while near a keyboard.
• The volunteers on the board are unprotected. If the NGB incurs debts exceeding the NGB's assets, those volunteers have unlimited liability for those debts, personally. Court costs, operational costs, none of that is deflected, it all lands on their heads directly. The NGB can sometimes arrange for liability insurance for the board, but if the NGB's not a company, that's often more expensive and the debt incurred by the insurance could ironically wind up being paid by the volunteers it protects. If the NGB is incorporated, there is a degree of shielding in law (the whole point of the word limited is that shielding - the board and members have very limited liability if the company goes to the wall) and it's often easier and cheaper to get liability insurance for the board.

There are other reasons, but suffice to say, if my NGB wasn't incorporated, I'd want that changed. And I'd be very hesitant about volunteering to help it until it was.

TL;DR - setting everything else aside, this is one thing that the GRPAI did correctly, and the NASRPC really ought to take their lead and do it themselves. Every NGB should, and most large clubs should do so too.

Tackleberry.

Sparks wrote: »

Because that's how NGBs are supposed to be set up according to pretty much everyone who's ever been involved in them and seen how things can go sideways?

"Company" in Irish corporate law does not mean what it means in common language. It's a legal framework; not a statement about making a profit. All charities are legally companies, for example. It creates a seperate legal entity from the members of the company so that assets can be held independently of any one individual. For example, NGB assets like electronic targets can be held as the property of the NGB itself, not as the personal property of one member who's donating them at the time (but who could be hit by a bus the next day and then the ownership of the assets falls to their spouse who may then sell them off to pay for funeral costs).

That's not to say that all dogs are poodles, you understand; just to point out that not all beagles are dogs.

Thx that's a fair explanation, Im in 3 different clubs 2 of which I know the ins and outs of, they quite simply have Countryside Alliance insurance and a bank account...hence my question.

hermes2011

I would say the NARSPC will get around to it but with the amount of crap the ex-committee left and the new GRPAI who are also ex-committee members they have a lot of crap on their plate to sort beforehand. And none it there making.

Sparks

Hermes, the NASRPC has been around, in this form, with these people running it, for at least the 23 years I've been shooting. I'm not saying there isn't any noise at the moment - I'm just saying I don't think they can say the GRPAI are why they haven't done this.

BattleCorp

hermes2011 wrote: »

I would say the NARSPC will get around to it but with the amount of crap the ex-committee left and the new GRPAI who are also ex-committee members they have a lot of crap on their plate to sort beforehand. And none it there making.

It has been said to you before, the GRPAI aren't the old NASRPC committee. There is only one member from the old NASRPC on the GRPAI's committee. So member, not members.

hermes2011

sparks that's not what I meant, I said that the new committee of the NASRPC have a lot on their plate, they have only been in position a couple of months and with all the crap they have inherited from the previous committee, it seems to have taken their eye off the ball on certain things.

hermes2011

BattleCorp wrote: »

It has been said to you before, the GRPAI aren't the old NASRPC committee. There is only one member from the old NASRPC on the GRPAI's committee. So member, not members.

as someone said be for its called a front

BillBen

hermes2011 wrote: »

sparks that's not what I meant, I said that the new committee of the NASRPC have a lot on their plate, they have only been in position a couple of months and with all the crap they have inherited from the previous committee, it seems to have taken their eye off the ball on certain things.

What crap would that be??

hermes2011

wiped computers grapi etc etc etc

BillBen

hermes2011 wrote: »

wiped computers grapi etc etc etc

Wiped computers etc ect. Did you see this computer And inspect it. If not then how can you say this happened ( allegedly )

hermes2011

BillBen wrote: »

Wiped computers etc ect. Did you see this computer And inspect it. If not then how can you say this happened ( allegedly )

it was in the consultation with clubs report issued from the 16/03/16, read it. said laptop was left in a club for their collection.

BillBen

hermes2011 wrote: »

it was in the consultation with clubs report issued from the 16/03/16, read it. said laptop was left in a club for their collection.

That's only hearsay no proof was shown.

hermes2011

I know they were wipe 100%

gunny123

BillBen wrote: »

I'd like you to back up your claim that most of who are members of what club in Wicklow and by back up I mean by facts or is this another one of your conspiracy
Theories

Reminds me of the time a wicklow club decided it was going to oversee practical pistol shooting in the republic, despite no one asking them to, and not having any mandate to do so.

Tackleberry.

hermes2011 wrote: »

I know they were wipe 100%

I was also told this from a NASRPC committee member...

Sparks

hermes2011 wrote: »

sparks that's not what I meant, I said that the new committee of the NASRPC have a lot on their plate, they have only been in position a couple of months and with all the crap they have inherited from the previous committee, it seems to have taken their eye off the ball on certain things.

I know hermes, but a lot of the people on that NASRPC committee were involved in the NASRPC at that kind of level at least sixteen years ago.

SVI40

IIRC, the NASRPC were at one time a limited company, this would have been some time in the early to mid 90's. One of the main reasons was to protect the committee from personal liability. With the advent of the Countryside Alliance insurance covering committees of clubs and / or associations, the decision was taken at the time to disband the company status. One of the main reasons, was the need for audited accounts, the fees for which took up a significant portion of the income at the time. It's been a long time since I served on that committee, but I'm pretty sure that was one of the reasons at the time.

Sparks

Definitely not SVI, the NASRPC didn't exist in the mid 90s (it was the NASRC) and they were never incorporated (the CRO has no record of them under either name). The NRPAI was incorporated, but not the NASRPC.

Also, there is no requirement for companies to have audited accounts in all cases. The audited accounts requirement is because of receiving sports council grants, not because of incorporation status (and if I remember correctly, the NASRC and NSAI avoided the auditing fees by having the NRPAI incorporated and auditing its accounts - so not really avoided, so much as taken off before the grant money arrived in their accounts).