GRPAI

Sparks

[Mod Note]

By several different posters in several slightly different guises wrote:

I'm 'The best shooter here' and even I beat you in a couple of events.

Folks, please review the first rule of the forum charter and remember that this particular little metaphorical measuring contest doesn't ever end well - and several of the ones we've seen in the last decade haven't ended at all for that matter, we just had to lock threads and give people time off to cool down.
[/Mod Note]

Cass

jb88 wrote: »

I agree, but the stats quoted mean more clubs so surely there would be significantly more members, and with that more competitors.

Not unless all members of the the clubs participated.

There were close to 100 MTSC club members at last years AGM, how many of them competed I know there were 6 at the International in July anyway, that's the point I am trying to make.

Participation is not a prerequisite for being able to have your say/vote. A member is a member regardless of participation.

You've brought this up before saying those that don't compete or compete to a high enough level should not have a say.

If you want to change mindsets stop with the constant attacks, jibes, put downs and exclusionary talk.

jb88 wrote: »

Hardly much of an increase considering you have 3 times as many clubs as competed in 2015 - 17% Increase. Thriving really wouldn't say 17% is thriving.

It's still an increase and a far cry from the mass exodus you previously described.

Again even when the figures show you are wrong you cannot just say, fair enough, but attack with snide comments. Can you not see this is not the way forward?

jb88 wrote: »

Its no surprise 80% of the top ranked Gallery shooters in Ireland don't support you nor the NASRPC committee.

A somewhat abstract figure, but even if you're right what is the actual number? 80% of X%. Out of how many total shooters/competitiors?

Also you have once again segregated the top shooters from the rest. A novice deserves no less respect than someone with years of experience.

SVI40

jb88 wrote: »

I agree, but the stats quoted mean more clubs so surely there would be significantly more members, and with that more competitors. There were close to 100 MTSC club members at last years AGM, how many of them competed I know there were 6 at the International in July anyway, that's the point I am trying to make.

6.3 new competitors is the average for 11 new clubs. With 70 new competitors this year. Lets wait and revisit these stats in 2017.

Not necessarily. I'm a member of four clubs, but only enter competitions registering for the club I first joined.

Gleefulprinter

Think it is fair to say that the main reason that the GRPAI was founded was to govern gallery rifle and be recognised as the NGB. At this point we can all agree that is not going to happen. The NASRPC and the IGRF all seem pretty sure of that.

So what happens to the GRPAI next? Are they disbanding and rejoining the NASRPC or what? Are the people who said they would have nothing more to do with the NASRPC now not going to shoot in competitions run by the NASRPC?

BattleCorp

Gleefulprinter wrote: »

Think it is fair to say that the main reason that the GRPAI was founded was to govern gallery rifle and be recognised as the NGB. At this point we can all agree that is not going to happen. The NASRPC and the IGRF all seem pretty sure of that.

The GRPAI may or may not keep trying to achieve the NGB status, I don't know. The IGRF could have put this issue to bed ages ago by issuing a letter stating that the NASRPC are the NGB. They didn't do so. They just said words to the effect of "sort it out yourselves lads". I'm not privy to the workings of the IGRF or GRPAI so I'm going on third/fourth/fifth hand info here.

So what happens to the GRPAI next? Are they disbanding and rejoining the NASRPC or what? Are the people who said they would have nothing more to do with the NASRPC now not going to shoot in competitions run by the NASRPC?

I very much doubt that the GRPAI will disband and rejoin the NASRPC. I'd say they will keep going as a separate organisation. They do have the support of a lot of shooters.

Will some GRPAI supporters boycott competitions run by the NASRPC. Yes, I'd imagine that they will. Will everyone who shoots in GRPAI competitions boycott the NASRPC competitions, I'd imagine not. There will be plenty of people who will shoot in both.

Gleefulprinter

It seems weird that the GRPAI did not release a statement or an email or anything after the NASRPC sent that email.
When is their AGM?

Cass

Gleefulprinter wrote: »

Think it is fair to say that the main reason that the GRPAI was founded was to govern gallery rifle ........

But it's not just Gallery rifle, it's pistol too. It's in their name.

Gleefulprinter wrote:

....... the IGRF all seem pretty sure of that.

Battlecorp wrote:

The IGRF could have put this issue to bed ages ago by issuing a letter stating that the NASRPC are the NGB. They didn't do so

No, or none that i know of, international body will "take sides". They allow affiliation, but will not intervene in disputes as to the legitimacy of any groups claims.

So what happens to the GRPAI next?

If the NASRPC are recognised as the NGB? The GRPAI may exist as an association without the "privileges" of NGB status.

Are they disbanding and rejoining the NASRPC or what?

They could either disband and rejoin the NASRPC, affiliate to the NASRPC as an association, or go it alone. Each choice would have consequences.

They do have the support of a lot of shooters.

According to the stats above there are as many or more people shooting at NASRPC events as before. So it has not effected it from that front.

Also there is one range, possibly two, that support the GRPAI, but that may not include all members within those range(s) and even then it's only one or two. The rest are either supporting the NASRPC or happy to support both without having to pick a side.

Will some GRPAI supporters boycott competitions run by the NASRPC. Yes, I'd imagine that they will. Will everyone who shoots in GRPAI competitions boycott the NASRPC competitions, I'd imagine not. There will be plenty of people who will shoot in both

You will always have "die hards" on both sides of the fence, it's to be expected. However if there was a vote in the morning you'd like to think both sides would accept the result and get on with shooting.

Sparks

Cass wrote: »

No, or none that i know of, international body will "take sides". They allow affiliation, but will not intervene in disputes as to the legitimacy of any groups claims.

And there's no national body I know of who have the standing to intervene in this kind of dispute either. The ISC don't decide who the NGB is, they recognise bodies as NGBs but they have to be the NGB beforehand. The OCI are the same. So the state bodies don't decide who an NGB is, the international sport bodies don't, and even the NGOs don't.

Deciding "who is the NGB" is not a process with any kind of provision for a situation where two bodies are vying for the title, not in this country anyway. Which means they're going to have to solve it for themselves if they want it done fast; or else this is going to drag on and on until someone runs out of steam or someone takes over the international body and changes its policy (I'd say they could do that with the ISC as well but it seems less likely).

It's a right mess, and a major weakness in the system (which we can be sure won't be fixed even after this because "erra, that'll never happen" )

jb88

Cass wrote: »

Not unless all members of the the clubs participated.

Participation is not a prerequisite for being able to have your say/vote. A member is a member regardless of participation.

If you participated in their competitions then perhaps you would understand?

You've brought this up before saying those that don't compete or compete to a high enough level should not have a say.

Everyone has a say, but you don't get to have one in the NASRPC its just ignored. Maybe you should try and ask a question and get a reply??? Ignoring is key to the NASRPC.

If you want to change mindsets stop with the constant attacks, jibes, put downs and exclusionary talk.



It's still an increase and a far cry from the mass exodus you previously described.

Give it 9 months and lets revisit that very point...

Again even when the figures show you are wrong you cannot just say, fair enough, but attack with snide comments. Can you not see this is not the way forward?

A somewhat abstract figure, but even if you're right what is the actual number? 80% of X%. Out of how many total shooters/competitiors?

Also you have once again segregated the top shooters from the rest. A novice deserves no less respect than someone with years of experience.

Segregation and exclusion from competing for your national team is only something which happens in the NASRPC,
Not me I will and have helped many people over the years in shooting and I resent your interpretation of that remark

Gleefulprinter

jb88 wrote: »

Segregation and exclusion from competing for your national team is only something which happens in the NASRPC,
Not me I will and have helped many people over the years in shooting and I resent your interpretation of that remark

So just going to ask, as you are dead set against the NASRPC and pro-GRPAI, are you ever planning on shooting in national competitions again organised by the NASRPC regardless of what happens to the GRPAI?

Scalachi

Guys,

The NASRPC leaderboards led to the National Championships being held recently in Fermoy, Top 10 from each discipline.

Any member of the GRPAI committee that made the top 10, went to the completion, competed, personally, I think I was in 4 of them, no issues

The GRPAI are never going to advise or tell any shooter what competitions they should or should not go to and enter, nor should they.

The reason that I was in the 4 National championship finals is that I qualified for them by attending NASRPC competitions during the year, as did others, the GRPAI Chairman is the NASRPC Smallbore 1500 National champion, and overall I don't see competition attendance changing.

While the GRPAI will run competitions as well, both GRPAI and NASRPC are open to everyone and all shooters who want to enter competition should go and enter.

Gleefulprinter

Scalachi wrote: »

Guys,

The NASRPC leaderboards led to the National Championships being held recently in Fermoy, Top 10 from each discipline.

Any member of the GRPAI committee that made the top 10, went to the completion, competed, personally, I think I was in 4 of them, no issues

The GRPAI are never going to advise or tell any shooter what competitions they should or should not go to and enter, nor should they.

The reason that I was in the 4 National championship finals is that I qualified for them by attending NASRPC competitions during the year, as did others, the GRPAI Chairman is the NASRPC Smallbore 1500 National champion, and overall I don't see competition attendance changing.

While the GRPAI will run competitions as well, both GRPAI and NASRPC are open to everyone and all shooters who want to enter competition should go and enter.

Sounds reasonable. Does this mean the GRPAI recognise NASRPC as the NGB?

Rimfire Shooter

Considering the last couple of posts why does GRPAI exist so?

BillBen

Rimfire Shooter wrote: »

Considering the last couple of posts why does GRPAI exist so?

Simple. People want them to

Rimfire Shooter

BillBen wrote: »

Simple. People want them to

So it has no other reason to exist other than some people want to have another organisation? I wonder how long it will be before we see "Continuity GRPAI" or "Continuity NASRPC"

Cass

jb88 wrote: »

Segregation and exclusion from competing for your national team is only something which happens in the NASRPC,

So says you, however considering your comments thus far i find it hard to believe given your opinions and stand point.

........... I resent your interpretation of that remark

You have, on more than one occasion, segregated the top shooters from the rest, and on the other end of the scale those that compete regularly to those that shoot here and there.

So it's not an interpretation, it's what you're saying.

Scalachi wrote: »

The GRPAI are never going to advise or tell any shooter what competitions they should or should not go to and enter, nor should they............................. While the GRPAI will run competitions as well, both GRPAI and NASRPC are open to everyone and all shooters who want to enter competition should go and enter.

That is good to hear if it is what is actively and publicly "enforced". However with comments like the above (from jb88) you have to wonder how many will heed this.

As i said earlier you'll always have die hards on both sides, but usually they die away when the support around does. In the end it's a few disgruntled people that number so low as to be irrelevant.

BillBen wrote: »

Simple. People want them to

To what end? I asked this before.

What does the GRPAI do that the NASRPC cannot do, and more importantly why is the NGB status important for the GRPAI as they said the NASRPC could affiliate to them, so why can the GRPAI not affiliate to the NASRPC.

Why is the NGB status so important to them?

BillBen

Cass wrote: »

So says you, however considering your comments thus far i find it hard to believe given your opinions and stand point.

You have, on more than one occasion, segregated the top shooters from the rest, and on the other end of the scale those that compete regularly to those that shoot here and there.

So it's not an interpretation, it's what you're saying.

That is good to hear if it is what is actively and publicly "enforced". However with comments like the above (from jb88) you have to wonder how many will heed this.

As i said earlier you'll always have die hards on both sides, but usually they die away when the support around does. In the end it's a few disgruntled people that number so low as to be irrelevant.


To what end? I asked this before.

What does the GRPAI do that the NASRPC cannot do, and more importantly why is the NGB status important for the GRPAI as they said the NASRPC could affiliate to them, so why can the GRPAI not affiliate to the NASRPC.

Why is the NGB status so important to them?

I can't answer as to whythe want to be the NGB all I know is with two organisations I can do a lot more shooting

Gleefulprinter

Maybe Scalachi or jb88 should come back and answer these questions. They seem to be in the know.
At this point it is important to know what is going on with the NGB status. Once that is sorted most of this can be put away.

Cass

BillBen wrote: »

I can't answer as to why the GRPAI want to be the NGB. If your that interested maybe you should contact them directly and ask them yourself,

I have. Got no answer though.

all I know is with two organisations I can do a lot more shooting

True.

Gleefulprinter wrote: »

Maybe Scalachi or jb88 should come back and answer these questions. They seem to be in the know.

I've asked throughout this thread. I got no answer though. I also asked other questions that were not answered regarding the NGB status and how it can, as stated, lie with the SSAI (now the FSAI) when that was never possible.

At this point it is important to know what is going on with the NGB status. Once that is sorted most of this can be put away.

Whichever way the hammer falls i can see disruption. It won't be for too long and as above some will not accept the result regardless of who comes out "on top", so there will be unease. However that should subside fairly quickly with people wanting to get back to the sport of shooting.

Goes back to the old saying about not being able to please all the people, all thee time.

Gleefulprinter

Suppose it is all up to the GRPAI now. If they won't answer the question of what their status about the NGB is then they can hardly expect people to support them.

LB6

There's an awful lot of, let's call it what it really is, Mickey measuring, going on here. Some people, on both sides of the fence, are just here to stir the proverbial and it's seen by all.

When we were growing up, we were told, "If you've nothing good to say, say nothing at all". Pity it wasn't taught everywhere.

If you want questions answered, go to the AGM of each committee when they announce them and put them then in AOB or even ask for your questions to be put as points to discuss - so they'll all have time to give you the answers you require.:mad:

No committee will answer on a public forum like this.

BattleCorp

If it was a mickey measuring competition, I'd lose.

LB6

BattleCorp wrote: »

If it was a mickey measuring competition, I'd lose.

Take your word for it

:D:D:D

Gleefulprinter

LB6 wrote: »

There's an awful lot of, let's call it what it really is, Mickey measuring, going on here. Some people, on both sides of the fence, are just here to stir the proverbial and it's seen by all.

When we were growing up, we were told, "If you've nothing good to say, say nothing at all". Pity it wasn't taught everywhere.

If you want questions answered, go to the AGM of each committee when they announce them and put them then in AOB or even ask for your questions to be put as points to discuss - so they'll all have time to give you the answers you require.:mad:

No committee will answer on a public forum like this.

People who seem to be representing one committee have already come on here and left messages. Simply asking them to do it again. Could do a AMA thread.

Cass

LB6 wrote: »

There's an awful lot of, let's call it what it really is, Mickey measuring, going on here.

Tempers can rise and at the end of the day it's a discussion forum. However once it's kept civil enough there is no problem with people arguing their point with vigor. On either side.

Some people, on both sides of the fence, are just here to stir the proverbial and it's seen by all.

Unfortunately that is also part and parcel of a forum. We try to limit the outright trolling and as happened earlier sockpuppeting, but again once people are civil we allow the discussion to continue.

When we were growing up, we were told, "If you've nothing good to say, say nothing at all". Pity it wasn't taught everywhere.

A forum, much like real life, does not run on hugs, kisses, and unicorn farts. We encourage people to speak their mind and if that is in the negative then so be it. Be that about a group, NGB, association, shop, business, etc. If the party involved is genuine they will welcome the questions and seek to clarify and answer them as quickly and openly as possible. However i can only guess that it's usually those with something to hide, guilty conscience, shame, embarrassment, etc. that refuse to answer. If they do not fall into any of those categories and still won't answer then they are guilty of inflaming the situation.

If you want questions answered, go to the AGM of each committee when they announce them and put them then in AOB or even ask for your questions to be put as points to discuss - so they'll all have time to give you the answers you require.:mad:

I'm not a member, nor are many other people. However the matter is in the public domain and this attitude of "don't talk about it openly, lets all discuss it behind the scenes" does no one any good and can exacerbate situations. Much like we have at the moment.

No committee will answer on a public forum like this.

More is the pity.

In previous other situations a simple statement, even on their own website, would have alleviated the tension and informed people. The information ends up here regardless so why not do so under the control of their own name and not the second hand info that usually takes days or weeks to confirm/dig through to make sure it's legit.

Gleefulprinter

Exactly Cass. Agree with everything you just said 100%.

The GRPAI were founded to promote gallery rifle- whatever that means, and to represent Ireland by being the NGB. Now there is an email from the NASRPC effectively denying them the status and the GRPAI have remained silent. All they need to do is clarify what their position on being the NGB is so this can be sorted once and for all.

Tackleberry.

Gleefulprinter wrote: »

Exactly Cass. Agree with everything you just said 100%.

The GRPAI were founded to promote gallery rifle- whatever that means, and to represent Ireland by being the NGB. Now there is an email from the NASRPC effectively denying them the status and the GRPAI have remained silent. All they need to do is clarify what their position on being the NGB is so this can be sorted once and for all.

As of 6th September on the GRPAI Facebook page,

Gleefulprinter

Tackleberry. wrote: »

As of 6th September on the GRPAI Facebook page,

Seems like there is conflicting info. There is nothing on the grpai website about being NGB from what I can see. Open to correction.

Tackleberry.

Gleefulprinter wrote: »

Seems like there is conflicting info. There is nothing on the grpai website about being NGB from what I can see. Open to correction.

Agreed there talking like they are the NGB..when really they are not.

clivej

Tackleberry. wrote: »

As of 6th September on the GRPAI Facebook page,

Gleefulprinter wrote: »

Seems like there is conflicting info. There is nothing on the grpai website about being NGB from what I can see. Open to correction.

Tackleberry. wrote: »

Agreed there talking like they are the NGB..when really they are not.

GRPAI change their wording to "... as a leading NGB in Irish Target Shooting sports.........."
So from that I would take it that they are not "The" NGB