GRPAI

Cass

clivej wrote: »

GRPAI change their wording to "... as a leading NGB in Irish Target Shooting sports.........."
So from that I would take it that they are not "The" NGB

NGB stands for National Governing Body.

So you cannot be a little bit of an NGB or somewhat of an NGB. You either are an NGB or you're not.

1. Are they recognised by the international committee?
2. Are they on the FCP (Firearms consultancy panel)?
3. Are they members of the FSAI?

If the answer to above is no, then they are not an NGB.

BattleCorp

Cass wrote: »

NGB stands for National Governing Body.

So you cannot be a little bit of an NGB or somewhat of an NGB. You either are an NGB or you're not.

1. Are they recognised by the international committee?
2. Are they on the FCP (Firearms consultancy panel)?
3. Are they members of the FSAI?

If the answer to above is no, then they are not an NGB.

1. By international committee, do you mean the IGRF? Because the IGRF didn't come down and tell the GRPAI to sod off, they told the NASRPC and the GRPAI to sort it out between themselves. So if they recognise the NASRPC, they didn't exactly stand up for them.

2. At least one of the GRPAI committee member is on the FCP.

3. What's the FSAI? I'm guessing it's not the Food Safety Authority of Ireland?

Cass

BattleCorp wrote: »

1. By international committee, do you mean the IGRF?

Yes, and we have already established that no international body will mediate disputes. Meaning neither the NASRPC or the GRPAI have received recognition from the international body.

This in itself is not the determining factor, but it's a big step.

2. At least one of the GRPAI committee member is on the FCP.

As the representative for the GRPAI? Or for another group?

3. What's the FSAI? I'm guessing it's not the Food Safety Authority of Ireland?

NRPAI to SSAI, to FSAI.

It's the umbrella group of the various NGBs that deal directly with the Irish sports council. It's made up of the NASRPC, NARGC, NRAI, NTSA, Pony club, and one or two others. It's hard to keep track of all the various acronyms.

BattleCorp

Cass wrote: »

As the representative for the GRPAI? Or for another group?

Seeing as the GRPAI were only formed this year, they weren't around when places were being given out on the FCP.

The GRPAI committee member represents another organisation on the FCP as far as I'm aware.

NRPAI to SSAI, to FSAI.

It's the umbrella group of the various NGBs that deal directly with the Irish sports council. It's made up of the NASRPC, NARGC, NRAI, NTSA, Pony club, and one or two others. It's hard to keep track of all the various acronyms.

Just looking at all the letters makes me dizzy. You'd need Sparks here to explain it to mere mortals like me. From reading his comments earlier in this thread, and I'm sure he'll be along to correct me if I'm wrong, but it's not exactly clear if all the NGB stuff was done correctly. There was a lot of technical stuff going on with organisations changing, merging, whatever etc. You'd want some head on you to be able to follow it all. And you'd want to be very interested in forensically analysing documentation too.

Anyway, which way to the range. All I want to do is shoot.

Cass

BattleCorp wrote: »

Seeing as the GRPAI were only formed this year, they weren't around when places were being given out on the FCP.

So, no to question one.

As i said WAAAAAAAYYYYYY back at the start of this thread when you first posted it, as a new group there is no way they could be an NGB. not from out of nowhere to NGB, it just doesn't happen that way. So the claims they made about being it are false, and they have changed from being the NGB, to not being it, to being a "leading NGB".

They are not an NGB, and most definitely not a leading one.

The GRPAI committee member represents another organisation on the FCP as far as I'm aware.

Exactly, so no to question two.

Just looking at all the letters makes me dizzy.

You're not the only one.

.............but it's not exactly clear if all the NGB stuff was done correctly

According to the IGRF, or whathas been reported as being their statement, then no. It's looks like something odd was done.

I've said it a few times, but perhaps this time it'll be read and someone can shine some light on it.

The GRPAI are claiming NGB status. They say the SSAI was the NGB and not the NASRPC. The SSAI could NEVER be the NGB. The SSAI's only function was to be a single point of contact for the Irish Sports council. So if someone within the SSAI "took" the NGB status for Gallery rifle they done so as a person and not as a group. This person, still having or being the named person as the NGB, obviously left the NASRPC and either founded or ran the GRPAI thus granting them the NGB status, or so they thought.

And you'd want to be very interested in forensically analysing documentation too.

Someone, somewhere knows what the truth it, an what happened. They're either staying quiet or have distanced themselves from both groups and no longer involved.

All I want to do is shoot.

So does everyone, but to ignore this and hope it all sorts itself out is not the way either. There is an old saying about those that seek power, not being suitable for the job.

There is a power grab happening and it's tearing the sport apart in the process. That is not the actions of people who are invested in the sport. If whomever is in charge is not important, but only the sport, then this would have been settled long ago.

Sparks

Cass wrote: »

1. Are they recognised by the international committee?
2. Are they on the FCP (Firearms consultancy panel)?
3. Are they members of the FSAI?

If the answer to above is no, then they are not an NGB.

Not so much as the last two have nothing to do with being NGBs - the FSAI is a rolodex entry for the ISC and several ISC-recognised NGBs are not members, like the biggest, the ICPSA; while the FCP is a legislative panel made up of stakeholders in the firearms act as decided upon by the Minister for Justice, and the membership there is not coupled to any governing body status in sport.

This is the problem I've been talking about with regard to the "who is the NGB" question - it's not a question that has any accepted way to determine the answer in the case where you have several bodies claiming the status for a relatively new sport.

We have mechanisms where *already accepted* NGBs have to meet certain criteria to be eligible for state grants through the ISC, but that's not the same thing as deciding who the NGB is in the first place. And if the international body doesn't arbitrate the decision (which seems to be the case here, though it has not been the case in other sports), and if the two bodies themselves won't or can't find a third party who they can accept the arbitration of, like Just Sport Ireland for the obvious example, then you basically don't have a resolution mechanism and people just keep banging heads until someone gives up and goes to do something more fun and/or productive with their time.

It's a pretty crappy situation, and an absolute sinkhole for time and money that could be going to better things.

Honestly, if the international governing body would make a decision, it'd probably be for the best either way. If some other body was to try sending shooters to the Olympics without the ICPSA or NTSA nominating then, the ISSF wouldn't accept it as they ratify the NGB position in ISSF shooting; why this isn't the case here is something I don't understand unless the answer is a complete lack of time to invest in it.

It's made up of the NASRPC, NARGC, NRAI, NTSA, Pony club, and one or two others.

It what now? Last I heard, it was the NASRPC, NRAI, Pony club and NSAI. The NARGC were never members, and the NTSA quit years ago. I hadn't even heard if the FSAI was still active, I was under the impression it had been allowed to effectively die off shortly after it formed (at least, the last time I checked, the DoJ hadn't been contacted by it and the ISC funding was still suspended).

Cass

Sparks wrote: »

Not so much as the last two have nothing to do with being NGBs - the FSAI is a rolodex entry for the ISC and several ISC-recognised NGBs are not members, like the biggest, the ICPSA; while the FCP is a legislative panel made up of stakeholders in the firearms act as decided upon by the Minister for Justice, and the membership there is not coupled to any governing body status in sport.

Those three questions are not "checklists for NGBs". However they are indicators of an NGB or what i'd class as an NGB. However its not just the last two, but essentially all three. It's why i said:

Cass wrote:

This in itself is not the determining factor, but it's a big step.

If the NASRPC being around for as long as they have been, with the history, and recognition they've had for so many years are not the NGB, then the GRPAI's claims of being the NGB are seriously outlandish.

Sparks wrote:

This is the problem I've been talking about with regard to the "who is the NGB" question - it's not a question that has any accepted way to determine the answer in the case where you have several bodies claiming the status for a relatively new sport.

..........................then you basically don't have a resolution mechanism .................

There is one. I said it, and so did you:

Sparks wrote:

Honestly, if the international governing body would make a decision, it'd probably be for the best either way.

It can be done, and has with other sport(s) in the past.

The fact they won't is another root cause for this debacle and why there will be no resolution. It'll have to be the two groups involved that settle this.

It what now? Last I heard, it was the NASRPC, NRAI, Pony club and NSAI. The NARGC were never members, and the NTSA quit years ago.

I was speaking about the NRPAI, SSAI and the latest outing, the FSAI. All the groups were involved in it in one incarnation or another.

I hadn't even heard if the FSAI was still active, I was under the impression it had been allowed to effectively die off shortly after it formed .

The initial Chairmanship was being held by the NASRPC, IIRC, but it was never heard of shortly after being formed

Has it been officially disbanded/wound down?

Sparks

Cass wrote: »

Those three questions are not "checklists for NGBs". However they are indicators of an NGB or what i'd class as an NGB. However its not just the last two, but essentially all three.

Except that it's really not.
I mean, the ICPSA isn't in FISA, neither's the NTSA. Both attend the FCP. The NASRPC is in FISA but wasn't in the FCP originally (they were represented by FISA, or the SSAI as it then was). The MPAI isn't in either, but is an NGB, and just sent two people to compete in the Olympic games.
Honestly, the last two on that list have absolutely nothing to do with deciding who and what is an NGB.

If the NASRPC being around for as long as they have been, with the history, and recognition they've had for so many years are not the NGB, then the GRPAI's claims of being the NGB are seriously outlandish.

I'd agree, if the IGRF hadn't had the SSAI down as the NGB. Which implied that the original application wasn't in order and that there was at least a question to answer and then the IGRF declined to answer it for reasons that are not clear outside the IGRF, which I think is what's caused the mess to drag on like this.

There is one. I said it, and so did you:

Yup, but I said there's no resolution mechanism

if the international body doesn't arbitrate the decision (which seems to be the case here, though it has not been the case in other sports)

I was speaking about the NRPAI, SSAI and the latest outing, the FSAI. All the groups were involved in it in one incarnation or another.

The NARGC definitely wasn't. And not all of the others were in FSAI, the NTSA certainly left long before that stage.

The initial Chairmanship was being held by the NASRPC, IIRC, but it was never heard of shortly after being formed
Has it been officially disbanded/wound down?

What I understood to have happened was that the initial chair went to the NRAI and then subsequently to the NASRPC and then it seemed to die a death from lack of engagement after the infighting got killed off by the rotating chair. The DoJ hadn't heard of it when I last asked, and the ISC funding problem remained unsolved. I've not been following it for a while though.

Gleefulprinter

Doesn't the IGRF charter recognise the NASRPC as the NGB? Seems settled from their point.
http://igrf.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/igrf-charter-2013.pdf

Cass

Sparks wrote: »

Except that it's really not.

Then what is? You've pointed out in detail what does not make it an NGB so what does?

I mean, the ICPSA isn't in FISA, neither's the NTSA. Both attend the FCP.

I'm not saying one is a prerequisite for the other.

As you pointed out you don't need to be part of one to be part of the other. Yet i wouldn't deny both are NGBs for the respective sports.

The NASRPC is in FISA but wasn't in the FCP originally (they were represented by FISA, or the SSAI as it then was).

But they were represented!

The MPAI isn't in either, but is an NGB, and just sent two people to compete in the Olympic games.

Don't know what the MPAI is.

Honestly, the last two on that list have absolutely nothing to do with deciding who and what is an NGB.

I know, and i said as much, twice now.

I said they are indicators, at least to me, of what an NGB is. As you've said yourself there is no official mechanism for identifying what makes an NGB and NGB, so in the absence of "proof" is it a mortal sin for me to say that i would class these principles as being signs that a group represents a certain discipline?

I'd agree, if the IGRF hadn't had the SSAI down as the NGB. Which implied that the original application wasn't in order and that there was at least a question to answer and then the IGRF declined to answer it for reasons that are not clear outside the IGRF, which I think is what's caused the mess to drag on like this.

As above. Someone had to know this was wrong, nothing was done at the time, and now we have this mess.

Yup, but I said there's no resolution mechanism

The IGRF saying "X" is the NGB would not resolve this? I know they have refused to take sides, but would this act by them not resolve this? And i'm speaking only for this topic of this thread. Not for others groups or as a general rule.

The NARGC definitely wasn't. And not all of the others were in FSAI, the NTSA certainly left long before that stage.

So one, but out of how many? And the NTSA may not have been in the FISA or even the SSAI, but were they not around for the NRPAI?

What I understood to have happened was that the initial chair went to the NRAI and then subsequently to the NASRPC and then it seemed to die a death from lack of engagement after the infighting got killed off by the rotating chair.

It currently, as it's never changed from the last chair, sits with the NASRPC.

The DoJ hadn't heard of it when I last asked,

Would they need to know about it? IOW would they have any need for interaction with this group?

and the ISC funding problem remained unsolved.

No one wants to touch the books with a ten foot barge pole so it'll remain that way. Hence the reason the FISA is a dead duck.

badaj0z

Gleefulprinter wrote: »

Doesn't the OGRF charter recognise the NASRPC as the NGB? Seems settled from their point.
http://igrf.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/igrf-charter-2013.pdf

THE INTERNATIONAL GALLERY RIFLE FEDERATION
CHARTER AGREEMENT
The International Gallery Rifle Föderation (formerly the European Gallery Rifle Föderation) was launched
on 29 January 2006. The principles which underpin the IGRF have been endorsed by the National
Governing Bodies of the three founding natlons - the Bund der Militär- und Polizeischützen for Germany,
the National Rifle Association for the United Kingdom and the National Associatlon of Sporting Rifle and
Pistol Clubs for the Republic of Ireland - and are documented in the "Leitmar Agreement".


Well spotted Gleefull. It seems the NASRPC are enshrined in the founding charter of the IGRF as the NGB for Ireland.

Judging from the GRPAI news bulletin referenced below, it would appear that the "old" NASRPC committee has now publicly emerged on the GRPAI committee giving further proof of how the old inner circle is deeply embedded in the formation of the GRPAI. What do you think is the reason for this? They are not the NGB so have no national responsibilities. Altruism, such as growing the sport or educating the newcomers?

https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/126624/402662.PNG

clivej

badaj0z wrote: »

THE INTERNATIONAL GALLERY RIFLE FEDERATION
CHARTER AGREEMENT
The International Gallery Rifle Föderation (formerly the European Gallery Rifle Föderation) was launched
on 29 January 2006. The principles which underpin the IGRF have been endorsed by the National
Governing Bodies of the three founding natlons - the Bund der Militär- und Polizeischützen for Germany,
the National Rifle Association for the United Kingdom and the National Associatlon of Sporting Rifle and
Pistol Clubs for the Republic of Ireland - and are documented in the "Leitmar Agreement".


Well spotted Gleefull. It seems the NASRPC are enshrined in the founding charter of the IGRF as the NGB for Ireland.

Judging from the GRPAI news bulletin referenced below, it would appear that the "old" NASRPC committee has now publicly emerged on the GRPAI committee giving further proof of how the old inner circle is deeply embedded in the formation of the GRPAI. What do you think is the reason for this? They are not the NGB so have no national responsibilities. Altruism, such as growing the sport or educating the newcomers?

https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/126624/402662.PNG

ALso note....................

"MEMBERSHIP
Membership is open to one national shooting sport Organisation from any country recognised by the
Föderation as the National Governing Body for Gallery Rifle in that country.
The Föderation acknowledges the rights of each member to have control over the sport within its own
country. It is the solo responsibility of each member to ensure compliance with all relevant legislative
requirements in connection with the sport"


A good link there and does look to clear up who is the NGB for all the nations.
But I see only Chris Farr signed the document

Sparks

See posts #71 and #269 and quite a few others gleeful, it appears not to be so cut and dried. Again, IGRF could settle this readily, but don't appear to wish to do so for their own reasons (which could be completely legitimate, it's just that they're not exactly convenient for Irish shooters).

Sparks

Cass wrote: »

Then what is? You've pointed out in detail what does not make it an NGB so what does?

There's the nub of it - there isn't a good definition. When the ISC was set up, they came into being with a set of established groups that governed existing sports and our whole structure got set up with that as an axiom, that there would be a single organising body that governed a sport and that everyone agreed was the governing body.

The idea that there might be a scrap over who'd be the NGB and a mechanism to resolve such a scrap effectively? Never seems to have been considered or invented.

But they were represented!

Preacher, meet choir However they had a different opinion at the time and it was the cause of much shouting that you might remember.

Don't know what the MPAI is.

Modern Pentathlon. Riding, running, swimming, fencing and shooting.

I said they are indicators, at least to me, of what an NGB is. As you've said yourself there is no official mechanism for identifying what makes an NGB and NGB, so in the absence of "proof" is it a mortal sin for me to say that i would class these principles as being signs that a group represents a certain discipline?

I wouldn't say mortal sin, but I'm one of these pagan types
But I'll say this, it's fair to say I'm in favour of the FCP, but I'd argue till I went blue in the face against membership of the FCP being a requirement to be an NGB, and likewise against membership of the FSAI. Neither the Minister for Justice nor a couple of clubs qualify as the arbiters of what is and is not an NGB.

As above. Someone had to know this was wrong, nothing was done at the time, and now we have this mess.

Yup. As is way too common a pattern in our sports.

The IGRF saying "X" is the NGB would not resolve this?

I think it would. They'd have to say it explictly at this stage because of the earlier noise they injected (see the much earlier discussion on whether or not their charter overrules their later statements and the whole thing about who signed what when that was all being set up); but they're the international body so if they govern the sport and say who can and can't send an Irish team to an international event, they're about the closest I can think of to a decision maker in this set of circumstances.

(I don't know if the international body is always going to be the decision maker in all circumstances, but that's more because this is all such a badly defined mess rather than some philosophical position. Stuff like this always turns on small details nobody thought about until we tripped over them and landed face-down in a cowpat).

So one, but out of how many? And the NTSA may not have been in the FISA or even the SSAI, but were they not around for the NRPAI?

They were in the SSAI, and in the NRPAI, but the NRPAI itself started off as a single organisation and later split into several, and many years after that became the rolodex entry for the ISC.
The alphabet soup is confusing; the history of the alphabet soup is even worse, and the fact that so little of it is written down for fear of the libel laws or (these days) the defamation act, well that doesn't help matters any.

It currently, as it's never changed from the last chair, sits with the NASRPC.

Then it's at best defunct, at worst dead, as its founding documents called for a six-month rotation of the chair as a basic principle.

Would they need to know about it? IOW would they have any need for interaction with this group?

Yes, as firearms legislation stuff was underway at the time and the SSAI was sitting on the FCP; that was left lapse by the FSAI.

No one wants to touch the books with a ten foot barge pole so it'll remain that way. Hence the reason the FISA is a dead duck.

Cass

Sparks wrote: »

Modern Pentathlon. Riding, running, swimming, fencing and shooting.

Ah. Did not know that.

........... but I'd argue till I went blue in the face against membership of the FCP being a requirement to be an NGB, and likewise against membership of the FSAI. Neither the Minister for Justice nor a couple of clubs qualify as the arbiters of what is and is not an NGB.

Not with it being a prerequisite, but as i've said above, an indicator.

As there is no set of variables to be recognised as an NGB, and given our Governments propensity to avoid (at all costs) anything considered as a definitive answer or commitment the only defining set of principles (except the glaringly obvious one of the International body stating it) is to hit a set of other factors. Recognition from other groups, representation in working groups and committees, etc.


I found myself, after the last exchange, wondering why in the world i'm am so invested in this when it seems all others are either indifferent or only interested in mud slinging.

I can only put it down to my inability to stand for any perceived wrongs. I believe the way this whole thing was started is wrong, how it was introduced was wrong, how it was handled and is being handled is wrong.

It has torn the sport into three groups (for, against, don't care), and will forever split it. I've seen this happen before on a smaller scale and it resulted in the two groups simply fading away. Gallery is a little too big to do that, but what it has done is open the flood gates.

What is to stop a new group called, example, the National Gallery Rifle and Pistol Shooters Association (NGPSA) being formed by yet another group of people and either challenging the two current ones or whomever may come out on top if it does get resolved? Simple answer is no one.

Why the questions i've asked earlier in the thread, and a few posts back have not been asked by the membership of both committees, is beyond me. Either people don't want to know, or don't care. If they don't care, then go back to sleep, and if they don't want to know then i'm at a loss as to their motivations.

Anyway, good news is i've exhausted anything and everything i can say or ask. I feel anything after this is simply repeating what has already been repeated.

So unless someone has a solution to the above, or has heard of a resolution between the two groups, i'm all done (hence the good news).

Rimfire Shooter

Cass wrote: »

I found myself, after the last exchange, wondering why in the world i'm am so invested in this.

Didn't I read here lately that Midlands are building a gallery range or ranges. Maybe there are plans to affiliate with NASRPC or GRPAI and get into gallery shooting?

Cass

Rimfire Shooter wrote: »

Didn't I read here lately that Midlands are building a gallery range or ranges.

They are indeed.

A 20-24 bay range for "everyday shooting" and then a separate 60 bay range with room to expand to 80 or even 100 if needs be. Will take a little time but next year will kick start it.

Maybe there are plans to affiliate with NASRPC or GRPAI and get into gallery shooting?

No idea. I'm not on the MNSCI committee and so not privvy to anything on that level.

The ranges are being built because a lot of our members shoot Gallery and have to travel past their "own range" to other ranges to shoot it, or at least on a competitive level.

So with the F-Class running nicely, the brand new shotgun range finished its time to turn our building attention to the sheltered ranges. While we redevelop them the decision was made to build a Gallery range so the range can now cover pretty much most types of shooting.

It already caters fro most types of shooting, but when finished it will cater for:

• F-Class (including benchrest, match, etc)
• Sporting rifle (sub 600 yard shooting)
• Hunting class (Field condition shooting, STAGS, etc)
• Rimfire Benchrest
• ISSF
• Pistol
• Clays
• Gallery
• Sporting rimfire

Sparks

Cass wrote: »

Not with it being a prerequisite, but as i've said above, an indicator.

Maybe, but they're bad indicators, to the point where we'd want to resist them being adopted.

As there is no set of variables to be recognised as an NGB, and given our Governments propensity to avoid (at all costs) anything considered as a definitive answer or commitment the only defining set of principles (except the glaringly obvious one of the International body stating it) is to hit a set of other factors. Recognition from other groups, representation in working groups and committees, etc.

Yup. I'd just be really careful about what to select for those factors, because the other thing our Government is really good at is taking things you select for recognition like that and codifying them, especially if it gives them the ability to decide who is and is not running things.

I found myself, after the last exchange, wondering why in the world i'm am so invested in this when it seems all others are either indifferent or only interested in mud slinging.

Personally, because this point really isn't about the GRPAI/NASRPC spat. I could care less about that I suppose, but it'd take more effort than I'm willing to put in.

But the precedent it could set - this stuff works like court cases, only without the appeals process or the documented judgements or the time taken to reach a decision or the names being attached to judgements so you at least know who to blame for a ****ty situation. The next discipline that springs up and gets claimed by two groups (and this exact situation, in the time I've been watching, has happened in Ireland on at least three other occasions and it's been used as a threat to my face at least once in public), could be subjected to things that got done in this case.

I can only put it down to my inability to stand for any perceived wrongs. I believe the way this whole thing was started is wrong, how it was introduced was wrong, how it was handled and is being handled is wrong.

I'd agree completely with that.

What is to stop a new group called, example, the National Gallery Rifle and Pistol Shooters Association (NGPSA) being formed by yet another group of people and either challenging the two current ones or whomever may come out on top if it does get resolved? Simple answer is no one.

At the moment, it seems that's completely correct. The IGRF could stop it but they seem to be unwilling to have a more active role in this so far. And that's a pattern that's way too common.

Gleefulprinter

Has anyone emailed either place recently to see what they say about their NGB status?

Valhalla18

Fellow Shooters,

The GRPAI was formed in early 2016 as an organisation focused on the development and promotion of Gallery Rifle & Pistol Target Shooting Sports. We considered that our sports were not being developed in the way that they should and were being caught up in ongoing political disputes. Now, as 2016 draws to a close, we would like to take an opportunity to review events during the past year.

NGB
We sought recognition as the NGB for Gallery Rifle & Pistol sports in order to administer the sports in a fair, open and honest manner. We challenged the NASRPC’s position as the NGB and we did so primarily on the following basis.

The original European Gallery Rifle Federation (EGRF) Charter was enacted in January 2006 at a meeting in Leitmar, Germany and was signed on behalf of the Shooting Sports Association of Ireland (SSAI). The SSAI was an umbrella body established to allow other Irish shooting organisations to comply with funding requirements of the Irish Sports Council. It was never an active NGB for any target shooting discipline. We believe that the SSAI acted beyond its powers in signing the EGRF charter and that the other members of the EGRF were unaware of the true status of the SSAI within Irish target shooting.

The EGRF subsequently became the IGRF and the 2010 IGRF Charter still listed the SSAI as the NGB for Ireland. The SSAI was disbanded during 2011 and some time before the publication of the 2013 IGRF Charter, the IGRF appear to have been led to believe that the SSAI had changed its name to NASRPC. The NASRPC was originally called the NASRC and its existence predated the formation of the SSAI.

There does not appear to be any IGRF minutes or resolutions which introduce the NASRPC as the NGB for Ireland prior to it being named on the Charter. The status of the NASRPC as an NGB within the IGRF seems to stem only from the introduction of the SSAI in 2006.

We approached the IGRF and received a positive response to our request. Several times during the year we communicated a positive set of proposals to the NASRPC which included offers of cooperation in terms of competitions, range officers and growing the sport in general. Unfortunately, those proposals were ignored. The IGRF on the other hand afforded us an opportunity to present our case to a meeting at Bisley in May but unfortunately we were prevented from expressing our proposals by the NASRPC representatives present. A resulting dispute led to the resignation of some members of the IGRF committee who had expressed support for our proposals. We understand the new IGRF committee requested the NASRPC to engage with us in order to resolve the situation but unfortunately this has not happened.

Since that meeting in May we have decided to focus our attention for the time being on growing the sport in a positive manner as ongoing political arguing only serves to detract our focus from the sport.

The GRPAI encourages shooters to take part in all competitions and to support all organisations. The more people that participate in shooting events, the better for all shooting sports.

Competitions
We ran several competitions during 2016, at Harbour House and Hilltop and we have plans to expand to more clubs in 2017. Each of these competitions saw excellent attendances with enjoyable shooting and good fun experienced by all. We would like to take this opportunity to thank the many sportsmen and women who attended these events and the Range Officers who gave their time to ensure that the events ran smoothly. In November we organised a group comprising the majority of Irish competitors who travelled to the German Gallery Rifle open who all had a fantastic time and brought home a fine collection of medals and awards.

Training
During the second half of 2016, we commenced our training programme, which consisted mostly of informal training in Gallery Rifle disciplines. At these sessions we witnessed many shooters improve their performance and some new faces also joined in. We also held our first Target Shooting for Ladies course which was fully booked and resulted in a number of new female members enter the world of Target Shooting.

Organisation
We extended our committee during the past few months to include some individuals who bring a wealth of experience in the administration of Target Shooting sports and we believe that we now have a group of dedicated people working as a team for the benefit of shooters and our sports in general. We would like to thank all target sports participants for the overwhelming support that we have received during the year. We would also like to thank our sponsors Harbour Guns, Gunshop.ie, Peli Ireland and Corr Tactical who came on board at an early stage and whose support was invaluable.

Going forward
Our committee have been working hard to develop a plan for 2017 which will include competitions at a number of ranges and our intention is to attract as many shooters as possible into competitive target shooting. We will also continue our training programme which will include both structured and informal training sessions to develop shooting skills and safety awareness among the target shooting community. We intend to focus on our commitments to develop and promote Gallery Rifle & Pistol Target Shooting Sports and to ensuring that as many shooters as possible enjoy fun, safe and competitive shooting. We will soon release details of our Competition and Training plans for 2017.

Should you have any questions or like to discuss any suggestions, please feel free to contact any member of the GRPAI committee in person or contact us by email at info@grpai.ie

On behalf of Jimmy, Will, Declan, Mark, Glenn and Martin I would like to wish you a very Happy Christmas and safe shooting in 2017 and we hope to see you on the line next year.

Yours in sport

Mark Nolan
Chairman
GRPAI

Gleefulprinter

Your failed putsch was the reason for the ongoing political disputes through the year.
Could you just admit that you were defeated on the NGB status and let's all move on?

Valhalla18

Since that meeting in May we have decided to focus our attention for the time being on growing the sport in a positive manner as ongoing political arguing only serves to detract our focus from the sport.

The GRPAI encourages shooters to take part in all competitions and to support all organisations. The more people that participate in shooting events, the better for all shooting sports.


Gleeful. Why don't you <MOD SNIP> read the document. The GRPAI have said they are focusing their attention on the sport and are encouraging all shooters to support all organisations. It's people like you who won't let it go and are intent on causing as much bitching and back biting as you can just because you have nothing better to do.

Gleefulprinter

They haven't said anything in that press release. They already said they would focus on the sport. That was the point of the organisation. If they are not going for the NGB what is the point of them?

It is not people like me back biting, shooters had to put up with this nonsense for a year. And everytime questions are raised school kids like yourself come out telling everyone to focus on being positive and lovely and only say nice things.

Simple question, do they recognise the NASRPC as the NGB? They won't answer.

Sparks

Valhalla18 wrote: »

take that big stick out of your arse

Gleefulprinter wrote: »

school kids like yourself

[Mod Note]No more of that if you please - refer to the forum charter's first rule.[/Mod Note]

edit: that applies to everyone, not just one poster, which might not have been clear initially.

Cass

Meant to reply earlier but got caught up with last minute stuff given the tie of year. Also apologies for the long reply, but there was a lot to cover.

Valhalla18 wrote: »

The GRPAI was formed in early 2016 as an organisation focused on the development and promotion of Gallery Rifle & Pistol Target Shooting Sports.

The GRPAI was formed almost immediately after the NASRPC AGM where the old committee stood down and a new one was elected. The GRPAI was a case of "we're taking our ball and going home".

We considered that our sports were not being developed in the way that they should and were being caught up in ongoing political disputes.

All caused by the old committee,some members of whom are now on your GRPAI committee.

So why bring in the people that caused the problem. And before you say it was the new committee, they were only in the job two weeks the GRPAI stuck their head above the parapet.

NGB
We sought recognition as the NGB for Gallery Rifle & Pistol sports in order to administer the sports in a fair, open and honest manner.

Because the old committee, pre AGM, were not up to the task? So why have the same people involved in the running and now the committee of the GRPAI?

We challenged the NASRPC’s position as the NGB and we did so primarily on the following basis.

Not quite.

You came out stating you were the NGB with absolutely no hint of a claim to it. Your attitude form the start was confrontational and aggressive and those that had their eyes open could see it for what it was. An attempt to usurp power from the NASRPC after the old committee were forced to stand down.

The original European Gallery Rifle Federation (EGRF) Charter was enacted in January 2006 at a meeting in Leitmar, Germany and was signed on behalf of the Shooting Sports Association of Ireland (SSAI).

There is your first problem.

The SSAI was an umbrella body established to allow other Irish shooting organisations to comply with funding requirements of the Irish Sports Council. It was never an active NGB for any target shooting discipline.

And your second one.

We believe that the SSAI acted beyond its powers in signing the EGRF charter and that the other members of the EGRF were unaware of the true status of the SSAI within Irish target shooting.

So why did the NASRPC representative on the SSAI not stand up and say, "hold on a minute this cannot happen"? There are only three reasons:

1. Incompetence
2. Ignorance
3. Ulterior agenda

The EGRF subsequently became the IGRF and the 2010 IGRF Charter still listed the SSAI as the NGB for Ireland.

And still no one form the NASRPC stood up and asked how this happened?

Find out who was the NASRPC rep at the time and ask them. You'll have your answers as to how this happened.

The SSAI was disbanded during 2011 and some time before the publication of the 2013 IGRF Charter,

It was changed from the SSAI to the FSAI. The NASRPc held the chairmanship and to this day have never called a meeting. It is now essentially defunct.

the IGRF appear to have been led to believe that the SSAI had changed its name to NASRPC. The NASRPC was originally called the NASRC and its existence predated the formation of the SSAI.

And once again, why did the NASRPC reps not question this? You're trying to tell me that throughout this entire process of some 10 years not person asked can the SSAI do this (the answer would have been a quick and resounding no), and worse again not one NASRPC committee member asked "Who is the NGB?" or "Have we nailed this NGB thing down?"

There does not appear to be any IGRF minutes or resolutions which introduce the NASRPC as the NGB for Ireland prior to it being named on the Charter. The status of the NASRPC as an NGB within the IGRF seems to stem only from the introduction of the SSAI in 2006.

So as far as the IGRF are concerned the NASRPC are the NGB? However it came about, that is their stance?

We approached the IGRF and received a positive response to our request. Several times during the year we communicated a positive set of proposals to the NASRPC which included offers of cooperation in terms of competitions, range officers and growing the sport in general. Unfortunately, those proposals were ignored. The IGRF on the other hand afforded us an opportunity to present our case to a meeting at Bisley in May but unfortunately we were prevented from expressing our proposals by the NASRPC representatives present. A resulting dispute led to the resignation of some members of the IGRF committee who had expressed support for our proposals.

The GRPAI sought to take over the NASRPC, as your name suggests. You sought pistol as well as Gallery rifle which would have left the NASRPC as a shell of it's former self with only sporting rifle. I know of no association that would sit back and entertain such a "hostile takeover" bid.

We understand the new IGRF committee requested the NASRPC to engage with us in order to resolve the situation but unfortunately this has not happened.

As above. A new, self proclaimed NGB, trying to take over the NASRPC. Also i've heard as many "bad news" stories about the GRPAI and the demands they have made of the NASRPC. So its two way traffic.

Before you say we weren't, the GRPAI called for the NASRPC to take the back seat role for the good of the sport, yet point blank refused to accept such a role themselves. Then you question the motives why the NASRPC would not do this.

Since that meeting in May we have decided to focus our attention for the time being on growing the sport in a positive manner as ongoing political arguing only serves to detract our focus from the sport.

Last i heard the NASRPC have been recognised by the IGRF as the NGB as said above.

The GRPAI encourages shooters to take part in all competitions and to support all organisations.

You have people from the GRPAI on this very thread threatening to boycott shoots. You have the same people threatening people on thread and via PM to shut up and keep out of GRPAI business. Then the GRPAI cannot takes its advice to the NASRPC and simply support the NASRPc while acting as an independent body within the NASRPC.

That doesn't encourage much.

Organisation
We extended our committee during the past few months to include some individuals who bring a wealth of experience in the administration of Target Shooting sports and we believe that we now have a group of dedicated people working as a team for the benefit of shooters and our sports in general.

I recognise some of the names. The same names that were on the old committee during the SSAI and FSAI days. So ask them what happened, and why no one questioned, at the time, why the SSAI was being allowed to falsely sign as the NGB.


This whole thing was handled badly from the off. It stinks of pettiness, and the old committee breaking away to form it's own group.

The claims of united shooters, and "best for the sport" are hollow words when you see the actions of and split the GRPAI has caused. The name calling, mud slinging, and general aggressive tone towards the new committee of the NASRPC even though all complaints of the GRPAI are as a result of the actions of the old committee, some of whom you have on your GRPAI committee. Do you think this is wise given the level of complaint?

Rimfire Shooter

For once I agree with you jb88. However how democratic is the GRPAI? The committee are all self appointed are they not?

At this stage it's becoming obvious that neither group are worth bothering with.

I have been told by someone in the know that the old committee & the Midlands crew have a long & unpleasant history of bickering that goes before this latest split and that the new NASRPC committee are in talks with Midlands (lot of members there that could in reality change the shape of the current situation not to mention possibly reloading for those with centrefire lever actions) so if GRPAI come out on top of the NGB battle Midlands will once again walk away from the disciplines the NASRPC run. I was told F Class is not going too well and maybe the new interest in gallery rifle mentioned above is to offset this? There's a lot going on here that a lot of us aren't being told about by both sides it seems.

BattleCorp

Have the NASRPC ever held an EGM before?