GRPAI

targetx

Cass wrote: »

The GRPAI appeared on the scene just over a month ago claiming to be the NGB for gallery rifle and pistol shooting. I asked, as did others, numerous times since the start of this thread as to how they were the NGB when the NASRPC already were. I got no answers, nor did anyone else, and now this:

This information is not new, it was circulated widely in the Gallery Rifle & Pistol community, to all clubs, Gallery Rifle Squads, etc. but I respect that you are not part of that community so therefore it is new to you.

Cass wrote: »

The goals, including the now admitted to one of becoming NGB, would effective remove the need for the NASRPC to exist and resign them to be in the position the GRPAI are now. A group of people, nothing more.

Not true, we would like to see the NASRPC remain and grow as an Association of Clubs.

Cass wrote: »

What way are people supposed to react to this? With open arms?

Open arms is probably a good way to describe how the vast majority of competitive and novice Gallery Rifle & Pistol shooters have reacted, in addition to the two largest Gallery Rifle & Pistol clubs.

Cass wrote: »

The NASRPC have the NGB, they run comps for both Gallery and pistol shooters, have recognition from the ISC and IGRF, not to mention sit on the FCP.

The NASRPC are not recognised by the ISC, I have that in writing from the ISC. The NASRPC are recognised by the IGRF by default, as they were formed from the SSAI who at that time were recognised by the IGRF. There was never a vote to recognise the NASRPC at the IGRF.

Cass wrote: »

Why can the GRPAI not do what they want the NASRPC to do and be happy to promote the sport(s) and continue to follow and support the NASRPC?

That is exactly what we want to do. However, the NASRPC are an Association of Clubs and report to Clubs, not all of which are involved in Gallery Rifle & Pistol shooting. All we want to do is separate the discipline into a focused organisation for development and training and management of the International Squads. The NASRPC, past and current committee do not have the resources to do that and understandably cannot be seen to be diverting all of their financial resources to Gallery Rifle Teams and Training, when the majority of their Clubs would not benefit from same.

Cass wrote: »

Why the need to effectively reduce the NASRPC to what the GRPAI is now?

Not true, not trying to reduce the NASRPC. Bear in mind that the NASRPC is not the NGB for Benchrest or WA1500. We simply want to work with them in the same manner that those NGB's do.

Cass wrote: »

Why not just support the NASRPC by joining with them to resolve these issues and remain united?

As stated already, we have tried to discuss and work with them.

Cass wrote: »

Most importantly why the need to be NGB at all?

So that proper financial resources can be directed to the National Teams and the training and encouragement of new shooters.

Cass wrote: »

If this is the case or has any substance to it, then it begs the question, has the GRPAI been in the works well before the AGM

It has been in the minds of many for quite some time, because the previous NASRPC committee, like the current committee, with the best intentions, were also unable to properly finance the International Teams.

Cass wrote: »

I'm not a member and i think it has truck size holes in it, and this is only the NGB issue.

I can appreciate how this looks to a person on the outside looking in. You are welcome to visit either one of the two biggest clubs where competitive and novice Gallery Rifle & Pistol shooters are located and speak to the people on the ground where you will witness overwhelming support for the GRPAI, novice shooters excited at the thoughts of dedicated training, competitive shooters with some chance of being properly mentored and supported in international events.

The bottom line is that the GRPAI has significant support and is here to stay.

Cass

You're just going to skip right over the NGB issue? The false claims that the GRPAI are the NGB when they're not? This claim only serves to get the backs of the NASRPC up and does not encourage communication and/or co-operation.

targetx wrote: »

This information is not new, it was circulated widely in the Gallery Rifle & Pistol community, to all clubs, Gallery Rifle Squads, etc. but I respect that you are not part of that community so therefore it is new to you.

When was this information circulated? Why was the issue not brought up at the AGM?

Not true, we would like to see the NASRPC remain and grow as an Association of Clubs.

This won't happen.

The name GRPAI includes Gallery rifle and Psitol. So the NASRPC will become the NASRC. Doesn't seem much but you've effectively "left" them with sporting rifle. If that is not enough then you say you want to see that become it's own NGB too. So now you have NAC (National Association of Clubs).

Why would any club affiliate to an association (not even an NGB). They'd be useless and prevent national/international participation. IOW they would be redundant.

Open arms is probably a good way to describe how the vast majority of competitive and novice Gallery Rifle & Pistol shooters have reacted, in addition to the two largest Gallery Rifle & Pistol clubs.

What are you (GRPAI) doing forGallery rifle that the NASRPC cannot do? Break it down for me.

The NASRPC are not recognised by the ISC, I have that in writing from the ISC. The NASRPC are recognised by the IGRF by default, as they were formed from the SSAI who at that time were recognised by the IGRF. There was never a vote to recognise the NASRPC at the IGRF.

Thanks for clearing the issue about the ISC up.

As for the rest well there is a serious problem. The SSAI was an association of shooting bodies and as such cannot be recognised as the NGB for ANY sport. The SSAI is also defunct and dead. Now replaced by the FISA which was chaired by the old NASRPC committee before it slowly fizzled away.

As such whomever sat on the FISA/SSAI representing the NASRPC knew that the SSAI/FISA could not hold the NGB for the NASRPC and should have made this clear. Unless they put themself forward as the point of contact which in effect would grant them (the person) NGB status and not the organisation.

That is exactly what we want to do. However, the NASRPC are an Association of Clubs and report to Clubs, not all of which are involved in Gallery Rifle & Pistol shooting.

I still don't understand the problem here. You are speaking of clubs and members of clubs (the actual participants) as two separate entities. They're not. The NASRPC report to the club reps, who in turn report to their various club members.

As much as the NASRPC is run by the clubs the clubs are run by the members. So if there is such overwhelming support for the GRPAI and its been around for much longer than i, and lot of others, believed why was a motion not put forward at the AGM to discuss it, and more importantly why did so many ranges affiliate to the NASRPC again. Why not say thanks for the good times, we're off?

All we want to do is separate the discipline into a focused organisation for development and training and management of the International Squads. The NASRPC, past and current committee do not have the resources to do that and understandably cannot be seen to be diverting all of their financial resources to Gallery Rifle Teams and Training, when the majority of their Clubs would not benefit from same.

But you're not just looking for Gallery rifle, you're looking for pistol shooting also. Its right there in your name. So if successful would you ignore pistol, leave it to the NASRPC to run, or be forced to divide resources as the NASRPC has to make sure that pistol shooting is not overshadowed or "left behind" by default?

Not true, not trying to reduce the NASRPC. Bear in mind that the NASRPC is not the NGB for Benchrest or WA1500. We simply want to work with them in the same manner that those NGB's do.

But it will happen by default. The NASRPC originally consisted of (just bear with me here):

• Benchrest
• WA1500
• Gallery
• Pistol
• Sporting rifle

Now BR and WA1500 are gone. So that leaves Gallery, Pistol, and Sporting Rifle. You (the GRPAI) want Gallery and psitol. So that'll leave Sporting Rifle. In the letters you provided you said the GRPAI would like to see Sporting rifle become an NGB in their own right.

So if all this happens, and as i said at the start of this post, you have no NASRPC or a very watered down version calling itself the Sporting Rifle association because that is all that is left and assuming the old NASRPC become the NGB for sporting rifle rather than disappear as a new group forms and takes it.

As stated already, we have tried to discuss and work with them.

With all due respect i've seen letters that you say were sent. I've seen no replies or similar letters from the NASRPC so we've only one side of the argument. As such i'd reserve judgement on who has done what.

So that proper financial resources can be directed to the National Teams and the training and encouragement of new shooters.

What financial resources?

If the GRPAI run a shoot then they collect the monies from that shoot, pay the range their dues, and then keep the rest. That is how it is done now.

The only other finances that would be available to the GRPAI would be affiliation fees that are currently paid to the NASRPC. So if these affiliation dues are now paid to the GRPAI then it's money out of the pocket of the NASRPC. Contrary to the claims that no finances would be taken from the NASRPC.

If you are referring to ISC funding then forget that. There has been none in over 5 years and due to the mess that was left there won't be any.

It has been in the minds of many for quite some time, because the previous NASRPC committee, like the current committee, with the best intentions, were also unable to properly finance the International Teams.

If the NASRPC, giving the above about finances, cannot find enough (according to you) to finance Gallery rifle shooting well enough and they have the pool of ranges they currently have, then what makes you think the GRPAI can do it with less ranges, and a smaller, more select pool of shooters.

Bearing in mind the GRPAI claim they don't work with clubs and don't represent them which in itself is wrong.

I can appreciate how this looks to a person on the outside looking in. You are welcome to visit either one of the two biggest clubs where competitive and novice Gallery Rifle & Pistol shooters are located and speak to the people on the ground where you will witness overwhelming support for the GRPAI, novice shooters excited at the thoughts of dedicated training, competitive shooters with some chance of being properly mentored and supported in international events.

Thanks for the offer.

I'll leave ye boys and girls to your sport. I have an interest in it, but no real intention of shooting it. However the current situation really interests me for all the above reasons.

I just cannot resolve how what you say to what you are doing/going to do can work. Most definitely not in the way its claimed. I'm also at a loss as to how things have gotten to where they are, and i'm not just referring to attitudes. I mean the NGB issue, recognition form IGRF to the SSAI (not valid), financial talk, talk of gallery only -no pistol, etc, etc.

The bottom line is that the GRPAI has significant support and is here to stay.

Guess time will tell.

targetx

Cass wrote: »

You're just going to skip right over the NGB issue?

No, not skipping over it, it is obvious that we have laid claim to be recognised as an NGB. There is no legal recognition process for NGB's. We will earn the status through the support of shooters and clubs. If a sufficient number of shooters recognise us as an NGB then we are an NGB. The international recognition is outside of our control and is a seperate matter to be decided in time.

Cass wrote: »

Why would any club affiliate to an association (not even an NGB). They'd be useless and prevent national/international participation. IOW they would be redundant.

I disagree. NASRPC as an Association of Clubs is necessary, for political representation, for the running of competitions, National Championships, etc. and for the overall support of all shooting disciplines on a National level with several NGB's in support. Also, just to be clear, we are not trying to take away the NASRPC's competition schedule, you will read above that we intend to support it.

Cass wrote: »

What are you (GRPAI) doing forGallery rifle that the NASRPC cannot do? Break it down for me.

For example, the Gallery Rifle team that travelled to the World Championships last year had practically no financial support, the top 5 shooters did not travel, some possibly for cost reasons. There was no organised training or mentoring in advance. We compete with teams from Germany and South Africa for example who have significant support in their countries. The NASRPC at the time did not have the financial resources to commit to any of that. The NASRPC past and present, are responsible to Clubs first and foremost and cannot devote significant financial resources to international Gallery Rifle teams or Gallery Rifle & Pistol disciplines in general.

We wish to focus purely on the disciplines with the objective to fund and support the International Teams to international standards. We wish to work and co-operate with the NASRPC in terms of National competitions etc.

The NASRPC at the recent meeting with Clubs in Abbeyleix stated that they had received an "anonymous donation" of €2,000 towards the Teams travelling to Bisley in May. The Team Captains queried this and it was denied. Subsequently, the minutes were released and the original statement is in there for all to see. Whats going on there? The Team Captains should have been the first to know about this funding contribution but instead it was denied and they are still waiting for a response. The GRPAI's intention is to provide all surplus funds for the development of the International Teams and the improvement of the international reputation of Irish Gallery Rifle shooting. And if your wondering why the word Pistol is not in there, it is because there is no International aspect to Irish smallbore Pistol Shooting but we also intend to improve the numbers and skill levels of pistol shooters at National level.

Also, I am surprised you did not react to the statement above where we say that we believe that the NASRPC have brought the sport into disrepute in several ways recently. Was it convenient for you to skip that part?

Cass wrote: »

I still don't understand the problem here.

With respect, to understand the problem, you need to be in the middle of the problem, which in fairness, you are not.

Cass wrote: »

more importantly why did so many ranges affiliate to the NASRPC again.

You are missing the point, we encourage Clubs to affiliate to the NASRPC, there is a need for the NASRPC. The NASRPC is an important entity and should continue to be.

Cass wrote: »

But you're not just looking for Gallery rifle, you're looking for pistol shooting also. Its right there in your name. So if successful would you ignore pistol, leave it to the NASRPC to run, or be forced to divide resources as the NASRPC has to make sure that pistol shooting is not overshadowed or "left behind" by default?

If we speak about "Gallery Rifle" without using the word "Pistol" we are doing so in the context of International Teams, which as I said above, is for Gallery Rifle only. In general, Gallery Rifle and Pistol go hand in hand, mostly the same courses of fire, rules, etc.

Cass wrote: »

But it will happen by default. The NASRPC originally consisted of (just bear with me here):

• Benchrest
• WA1500
• Gallery
• Pistol
• Sporting rifle

Now BR and WA1500 are gone.

Now you have hit the nail on the head and thank you. Benchrest and WA1500 are "gone" as in they are now seperate and independent NGBs. In Benchrest the NRBAI is a seperate NGB which runs its own affairs and manages its own International Team. Yet the Benchrest shooters take part and assist with the NASRPC's National and International Competitions and all works well in the spirit of co-operation. Well, that is exactly what the GRPAI seeks to do, nothing more and nothing less. If it can be done for Benchrest, it can be done for Gallery Rifle & Pistol.

Cass wrote: »

With all due respect i've seen letters that you say were sent. I've seen no replies or similar letters from the NASRPC so we've only one side of the argument. As such i'd reserve judgement on who has done what.

Unfortunately, the replies from the NASRPC have been pretty much very short emails to state that they will not engage with us. We really wish that the NASRPC would be as engaging and as interested as you are and have some lively discussions with us but that is not happening. Also, it is important to say that as individuals, the members of the NASRPC committee have our respect, some are our friends and this is not personal.

Cass wrote: »

What financial resources?

If the GRPAI run a shoot then they collect the monies from that shoot, pay the range their dues, and then keep the rest. That is how it is done now.

The only other finances that would be available to the GRPAI would be affiliation fees that are currently paid to the NASRPC. So if these affiliation dues are now paid to the GRPAI then it's money out of the pocket of the NASRPC. Contrary to the claims that no finances would be taken from the NASRPC.

The GRPAI will generate its own financial resources. We will not seek affiliation fees from Clubs as we are not an association of Clubs. We have made that very clear and I don't know where you got that suggestion from?

Cass wrote: »

If you are referring to ISC funding then forget that. There has been none in over 5 years and due to the mess that was left there won't be any.

No we are not referring to ISC funding and thank you for clarifying that there will be done and I agree with you, but believe it or not, the NASRPC have recently stated that they are expecting ISC funding??

Cass wrote: »

If the NASRPC, giving the above about finances, cannot find enough (according to you) to finance Gallery rifle shooting well enough and they have the pool of ranges they currently have, then what makes you think the GRPAI can do it with less ranges, and a smaller, more select pool of shooters.

"Smaller more select pool of shooters" - I really don't know where you got that idea from. To the contrary, we will have a larger and more diverse pool of shooters. Remember the part where I said we would train and encourage shooters and new entrants, the likes of which has not been done at all during the past few years.

Cass wrote: »

Bearing in mind the GRPAI claim they don't work with clubs and don't represent them which in itself is wrong.

Another twist of words there. We are not an association of Clubs but we will work with Clubs in any that we can and we already have the two largest Clubs in terms of Gallery Rifle & Pistol have asked us to run training and competitions.

As I said earlier, if you wish to understand the problem, come out from behind the keyboard and come to a range, meet the GRPAI, talk to the range operators who support us, talk to the shooters on the ground and of course talk to the NASRPC and maybe then, when you have listened to all sides of the debate, you might begin to understand....

Sparks

targetx wrote: »

The NASRPC are not recognised by the ISC, I have that in writing from the ISC.

Again, that's not exactly Edward Snowden material. The NASRPC (even when they were the NASRC) were never recognised by the ISC, and neither were any of the other bodies other than the ICPSA and the NRPAI (and subsequently the SSAI). The ISC demanded an umbrella body be formed rather than recognise the individual groups (and the amount of politics and ****e that created over thirty years is monumentally offensive, by the way).

The NASRPC are recognised by the IGRF by default, as they were formed from the SSAI who at that time were recognised by the IGRF. There was never a vote to recognise the NASRPC at the IGRF.

Okay, hold on a minute.

1) You have the origin stories wrong there. The NASRPC was formed from the NASRC. They predate the SSAI. And the SSAI was formed (in a very dodgy manner) from the NRPAI; not the NASRPC or the NASRC. The two groups and their two ancestors do not derive from each other (though they were members in that the NASRC was in the NRPAI and the NASRPC was in the SSAI - but the tail doesn't wag the dog, they were members, they weren't in charge any more than the other bodies involved -- the NSAI, Pony Club, NTSA, NRAI and IPSA).

2) The SSAI were not an NGB for anything. They never were, nor was the NRPAI before them. They were an umbrella body, formed explicitly to act as a single point of contact for the ISC and later the DoJ. There were long rows about chancers trying to use the name of the SSAI (and the NRPAI before that) as an NGB, and those chancer's attempts had no weight of any kind. Remember - neither the SSAI nor the NRPAI before it had any individual people as members, nor had they any clubs or ranges as members. They had, at various times, between three and five National Governing Bodies as the sole members of the association. Which means that even if their raison d'etre had changed and they were allowing themselves to be an NGB (which was something never agreed to), they didn't have any people or clubs or facilities as members so how could they have been an NGB at all?

In other words, if the only claim the NASRPC has on the NGB status is that the IGRF recognised the SSAI, then the NASRPC's paperwork is not in order. (That doesn't mean the situation on the ground isn't one way or the other; it's the paperwork I'm talking about here. But then again, recognition is all paperwork. If the NASRPC's is not in order and really was flawed like this from the start -- as opposed to, say, this being a misunderstanding somewhere along the line -- then the GRPAI's application to be the NGB isn't as totally far-fetched as it might otherwise appear).

And since the SSAI's name has been put forward like this before in... let's say circumstances that were not supported by the SSAI committee; well, you'd want to look carefully at who signed in the SSAI's name and whether or not they had the right to do so at the time at all.

ntipptop

MAD MAD MAD

All this energy being used up, when, if all this effort was to be used in one area we would have some organisation !!!!

Why grpai, can you not do, what your talking about within the nasrpc ????
if you are saying that you can get financial support else where, why not bring this to the table????
Why not train all shooters ???
why are you trying to divide ??? instead of unite!!!

To me this looks like a new group formed from the old nasrpc committee???
If you are a group from the old committee, then why would you not have tried this hard to make nasrpc find the finances for the international teams before this year ????

Cass

targetx wrote: »

No, not skipping over it, it is obvious that we have laid claim to be recognised as an NGB.

"laid claim to" is a big, BIG step from "We are" as you have claimed to be from the minute you appeared.

You are not the NGB just because you say you are. Why not have the GRPAI fulfill the role you are resigning the NASRPC to? Why can you not hold your gallery specific shoots under the support of the NASRPC?

For example, the Gallery Rifle team that travelled to the World Championships last year had practically no financial support, the top 5 shooters did not travel, some possibly for cost reasons

This is nothing new in shooting sports.

All F-Class shooters (i'll speak form this point of view as i cannot speak for others) finance their own shooting. From the €3,500 per year that each competitive shooter needs just to train and compete on club/national level to the €4,500 cost of traveling to the worlds in America, the Creedmoor in 3 years, the €1,000 every year for Bisley/Europeans, etc.

All of this is footed by the individual shooter. I could not afford to compete at all competitions for cost reasons, but i did not feel cheated or let down because someone did not pay my way for me.

We wish to focus purely on the disciplines with the objective to fund and support the International Teams to international standards. We wish to work and co-operate with the NASRPC in terms of National competitions etc.

And you cannot do this as anything other than an NGB? Under the guise of the NASRPC?

Also, I am surprised you did not react to the statement above where we say that we believe that the NASRPC have brought the sport into disrepute in several ways recently. Was it convenient for you to skip that part?

I've skipped over a lot of the content of those letters. TL:DR.

I would say that I have been a very vocal critic of the NASRPC over the years. As a political machine more so than a sporting group. That in itself should tell you how bad things are when i think they are getting shafted.

I criticised the OLD committee for a number of failings and secret actions. Each and every time the same people jumped to their defense with "its in the past". So i thought by dragging these issues up again i'd be seen to be trying to get the boot into the NASRPC for issues that i've discussed to death over the years and that people are sick hearing about.

However if you want to bring them up again i've no problem with that.

You claim the NASRPC will not be made redundant, but if the NRBAI or the WA1500 crowd wanted to separate completely form the NASRPC in the morning they can. If the GRPAI done so then it leaves the NASRPC as a hollowed out shell. A micro SSAI/FISA if you will. Nothing more than a name on an association of NGBs.

With regard to finances, you are saying that the NASRPC cannot finance the Gallery rifle or pistol to the level you want even though they collect fees from ranges/clubs, shoots, etc. But you are going to do this with none of that income? I'd be interested to hear how this is going to happen, and why this money raising ability is not used within the NASRPC.

I know, as most others do too, that there won't be any ISC funding. It did not need clarifying. The NASRPC tried years ago and failed.

You are going to be focusing on gallery primarily and pistol out of obligation. So all the other activities carried out under the guise of the NASRPC will not be included. Hence smaller.

As I said earlier, if you wish to understand the problem, come out from behind the keyboard and come to a range, meet the GRPAI, talk to the range operators who support us, talk to the shooters on the ground and of course talk to the NASRPC and maybe then, when you have listened to all sides of the debate, you might begin to understand....

"Come out from behind the keyboard" Classy.

My name is not a secret. There are no national security issues regarding me. I'm Kevin, nice to meet you ............."insert name here if you like"..................

I have met NASRPC, now GRPAI, members at the MNSCI. I've even discussed this very topic with them. Some were in support, some were not and others just wanted to shoot and were fed up of the bickering. The topic of the SC came up, the split within the NASRPC, etc. So i have a handle on both sides of the argument.

At the end of the day nothing that happens will effect me in the slightest. However that does not preclude me from asking questions on here. I have no interest in going to Harbour House or Hilltop (i assume these are the "two biggest ranges" you keep referring to). It's not out of spite or apathy. The ranges, as a facility, seem top class and i wish them more power and every success. However i can gather all i need to home within my own dealings, face to face, and on here.

jb88

"I have met NASRPC, now GRPAI, members at the MNSCI. I've even discussed this very topic with them. Some were in support, some were not and others just wanted to shoot and were fed up of the bickering. The topic of the SC came up, the split within the NASRPC, etc. So i have a handle on both sides of the argument." Your comment Cass

Maybe we are just not interested in your opinions as you are not part of our organization, that's why we don't want to speak to you at the MNSCI and we like shooting too much to be trying to explain things your not involved in. Nor will directly affect you.

Now if you joined GRPAI "CASS",:) Maybe then we might listen to your questions, but for me most likely not now. But you may prefer to sit on the fence and argue back and forth and question which is all meaningless if you are not part of it.

Whats that famous phrase about opinions????

Sparks

Nor will directly affect you.

Hmmm.
Y'know, I've never shot in an NASRC, NASRPC or GRPAI event (and have never had any interest in doing so either - it's grand fun, it's just not my cup of tea).
And yet, the actions of the NASRC and NASRPC often have directly affected me (and many other shooters outside that group, even when they didn't know about it).

Picking anonymised examples I've seen in the last decade at random: one person messes about with state funding protocols and now nobody in five NGBs gets funding when representing their country abroad in our sports. One person takes an ill-advised lawsuit and now everyone is affected by the ratcheting-down effect of the precedent set by the loss of the case. One person decides safety's not something to worry about and now everyone is affected by the outcome.

So honestly, that "anything we do won't affect anyone else" approach you're talking about and which "certain people" have no doubt been pushing around in the last few weeks? It needs to go die screaming in a fire. The sooner the better.

Cass

jb88 wrote: »

Maybe we are just not interested in your opinions as you are not part of our organization, that's why we don't want to speak to you at the MNSCI and we like shooting too much to be trying to explain things your not involved in.

Then please stop bringing it up with me every chance you get. First words out of your mouth are "So what do you think about {insert topic}"

Nor will directly affect you.

The split currently going on, no. It won't affect me one bit, right now. Down the road. God only knows. Given all the past exploits, who knows what they'll do and what effect it'll have on the larger community.

Now if you joined GRPAI "CASS",:) Maybe then we might listen to your questions, but for me most likely not now. But you may prefer to sit on the fence and argue back and forth and question which is all meaningless if you are not part of it.

One of the most subtle ways anyone has ever told me to Shut the Fu*k up. Again, classy. Plus the attitude of "you're not one of us" kinda goes against your GRPAI mantra, does it not? Wonder what will happen when one of your "members" has a question that you don't want to answer. Will they get the same reply?

ntipptop

Cass wrote: »

Then please stop bringing it up with me every chance you get. First words out of your mouth are "So what do you think about {insert topic}"

The split currently going on, no. It won't affect me one bit, right now. Down the road. God only knows. Given all the past exploits, who knows what they'll do and what effect it'll have on the larger community.

One of the most subtle ways anyone has ever told me to Shut the Fu*k up. Again, classy. Plus the attitude of "you're not one of us" kinda goes against your GRPAI mantra, does it not? Wonder what will happen when one of your "members" has a question that you don't want to answer. Will they get the same reply?

That will be probably the start of "pgrai" after that AGM and will have ngb status aswell ðŸ˜႒ðŸ˜႒ðŸ˜႒ðŸ˜႒
So then we'll have what ???? Abc and any other vowel will do association of single shooters ??
Cop f😎😆k on lads !!!

turismo2142

The GRPAI advocates here perpetuate the constant Harbour House and Hilltop centric narrative that has been so abundantly to the forefront since I started target shooting.

This advancement of shooting by way of training etc (were the GRPAI the NGB) seems to me to merely have those ranges in mind and I do not for one second believe that the development of the sport in an area wider than Dublin/Kildare would ever occur were the wishes of pro GRPAI posters here ever realised. Any objective reader of all the posts on this thread could only come to that conclusion in my opinion.

If I hear one more post about "the majority of shooters" from those ranges I'll explode. Do you guys not realise that it's in everyone's interests to help smaller, far flung ranges all around the country, to focus on activity everywhere and not just in Kildare etc? Nothing the GRPAI advocates here say could convince me that it would help the sport nationally. It would help it in the two big ranges perhaps. If that's what people want then be honest about it.


I think it's utterly hilarious that someone could set up a group like the GRPAI and just purport to be in charge overnight and I'm sorry guys but that's what has happened here.

I think that CASS and Sparks have asked all the reasonable and measured questions here about the GRPAI and I've not heard anything compelling to justify its existence.

I do absolutely love the idea of high end international level competition training for all from those x class shooters though. Can we not just do that within the NASRPC please? Form a sub committee and give theses guys massive amounts of autonomy to carry out their aim.

It strikes me that you all want the same thing if you'd all just stop hating each other.

I'm a member of HH by the way and it's a great club run by the salt if the earth. I really don't want to make any enemies here but I just had to say my bit.

PS, I agree the pre registration is a bit annoying (it certainly was last weekend) but I can see its use, particularly when we go to places like an riocht which has limited slots.

Rimfire Shooter

Well said turismo.

I have been a competitive competition shooter in a number of disciplines over many years but gave it up for a number of reasons not least the internal politics that goes on like we've seen in this thread. This situation is not unique to the NASRPC. More or less the same has happened in a few disciplines.

Do people want a situation where one range controls a discipline & unless your a member of it you can't compete in the discipline on an international level representing your country? As that's what could happen & has happened.

We're worried & trying to keep our sports alive with constant attacks from the powers that be and at the end of the day it's ourselves that are doing the most damage. All this dos is drive away existing shooters and new shooters see the rowing & decide to stay away in the first place.

I'm away to the range for a few shots now doing what I love rather than wasting time here

ntipptop

turismo2142 wrote: »

The GRPAI advocates here perpetuate the constant Harbour House and Hilltop centric narrative that has been so abundantly to the forefront since I started target shooting.

This advancement of shooting by way of training etc (were the GRPAI the NGB) seems to me to merely have those ranges in mind and I do not for one second believe that the development of the sport in an area wider than Dublin/Kildare would ever occur were the wishes of pro GRPAI posters here ever realised. Any objective reader of all the posts on this thread could only come to that conclusion in my opinion.

If I hear one more post about "the majority of shooters" from those ranges I'll explode. Do you guys not realise that it's in everyone's interests to help smaller, far flung ranges all around the country, to focus on activity everywhere and not just in Kildare etc? Nothing the GRPAI advocates here say could convince me that it would help the sport nationally. It would help it in the two big ranges perhaps. If that's what people want then be honest about it.


I think it's utterly hilarious that someone could set up a group like the GRPAI and just purport to be in charge overnight and I'm sorry guys but that's what has happened here.

I think that CASS and Sparks have asked all the reasonable and measured questions here about the GRPAI and I've not heard anything compelling to justify its existence.

I do absolutely love the idea of high end international level competition training for all from those x class shooters though. Can we not just do that within the NASRPC please? Form a sub committee and give theses guys massive amounts of autonomy to carry out their aim.

It strikes me that you all want the same thing if you'd all just stop hating each other.

I'm a member of HH by the way and it's a great club run by the salt if the earth. I really don't want to make any enemies here but I just had to say my bit.

PS, I agree the pre registration is a bit annoying (it certainly was last weekend) but I can see its use, particularly when we go to places like an riocht which has limited slots.

What I have heard is that "An Riocht" are building a new 50 lane, 50 metre range for pistol and gallery rifle, and there's plans to keep benchrest shooters happy also with a range incorporated into it !!! that should make it quite "unlimited" wouldn't you think so turismo

BattleCorp

ntipptop wrote: »

What I have heard is that "An Riocht" are building a new 50 lane, 50 metre range for pistol and gallery rifle, and there's plans to keep benchrest shooters happy also with a range incorporated into it !!! that should make it quite "unlimited" wouldn't you think so turismo

That would be impressive if it goes ahead.

goz83

Rimfire Shooter wrote: »

All this dos is drive away existing shooters and new shooters see the rowing & decide to stay away in the first place

I would agree with that. I wouldn't want to be involved in competition shooting with all the internal fighting I have seen in the short period I have been interested in the sport.

targetx

turismo2142 wrote: »

Do you guys not realise that it's in everyone's interests to help smaller, far flung ranges all around the country, to focus on activity everywhere and not just in Kildare etc?.

Of course we realise that! We have stated that we currently have the support of two particular clubs, however our training plan will be available to any club anywhere in Ireland and we intend to grow the sport nationally and assist any club who would like to avail of Gallery Rifle & Pistol training for its members. We never said our activities were limited to any specific clubs. You suggested that but that is incorrect.

BattleCorp

goz83 wrote: »

I would agree with that. I wouldn't want to be involved in competition shooting with all the internal fighting I have seen in the short period I have been interested in the sport.

The infighting doesn't manifest itself on the firing line. Lads who argue like fcuk here on boards.ie seem to get on fine on the line. These disagreements shouldn't stop lads from shooting in competitions.

Sparks

BattleCorp wrote: »

The infighting doesn't manifest itself on the firing line. Lads who argue like fcuk here on boards.ie seem to get on fine on the line. These disagreements shouldn't stop lads from shooting in competitions.

If anything, the situation *before* we had this place was far, far worse. The infighting was all quiet and hidden away. No noise, no fuss, but one day a national champion medal holder isn't being invited to matches anymore and he drops out of 50m shooting and vanishes from the scene entirely. Another day, a few faceless nameless people tell the PTB that we don't want pistols unless we get everything we want all at once, and all the rest of us know about it is that we can't try pistol shooting for another decade after that. Yet another day, more quiet chats go on and the next thing we know, the entire sport loses government funding. But it was quiet, and nobody was being untidy...

I'll happily acknowledge that boards isn't the tidiest thing out there -- though I will demand that anyone saying it remembers some of the seriously dodgy nonsense we've seen published in magazines long before boards showed up, because while we're not tidy, we're a long walk from the worst that there's ever been. But compared to the alternative? I've lived with both and you can give me untidy any day of the week and twice on sundays.

Also, being untidy doesn't seem to have hurt competitive performances - I've only seen scores going up and participation levels in the sport going up over the last twelve years.

BattleCorp

Sparks wrote: »

If anything, the situation *before* we had this place was far, far worse. The infighting was all quiet and hidden away. No noise, no fuss, but one day a national champion medal holder isn't being invited to matches anymore and he drops out of 50m shooting and vanishes from the scene entirely. Another day, a few faceless nameless people tell the PTB that we don't want pistols unless we get everything we want all at once, and all the rest of us know about it is that we can't try pistol shooting for another decade after that. Yet another day, more quiet chats go on and the next thing we know, the entire sport loses government funding. But it was quiet, and nobody was being untidy...

I'll happily acknowledge that boards isn't the tidiest thing out there -- though I will demand that anyone saying it remembers some of the seriously dodgy nonsense we've seen published in magazines long before boards showed up, because while we're not tidy, we're a long walk from the worst that there's ever been. But compared to the alternative? I've lived with both and you can give me untidy any day of the week and twice on sundays.

Also, being untidy doesn't seem to have hurt competitive performances - I've only seen scores going up and participation levels in the sport going up over the last twelve years.

I wasn't alluding to anything with my previous comment. I was just saying that people shouldn't let these arguments stop them from taking part in competitions. I wasn't commenting on what had gone on previously.

turismo2142

targetx wrote: »

Of course we realise that! We have stated that we currently have the support of two particular clubs, however our training plan will be available to any club anywhere in Ireland and we intend to grow the sport nationally and assist any club who would like to avail of Gallery Rifle & Pistol training for its members. We never said our activities were limited to any specific clubs. You suggested that but that is incorrect.

With respect. There is nothing you can say in light of the circumstances in which the GRPAI came into being, the backdrop of the last AGM, the way other clubs were treated prior to this (I concede things weren't helped to a large extent by the same club and the written responses to certain issues, shall we say) and what the GRPAI purported to do and usurp, that could possibly convince me that the GRPAI activities would be anything other than de facto HH/HT centric, notwithstanding a mealy-mouthed offer of training to (and I hate to use the phrase) peripheral clubs.

It's abundantly obvious to anyone following these posts for the past few months that;

1) the NASRPC AGM turned into a HH/HT v others power struggle (to a large extent and I do appreciate it's an over simplification of matters)

2) the setting up of the GRPAI was a direct response to the new committee and was an attempt to circumvent it.

How then, could anyone say that this GRPAI could have the interests of other minor ranges at heart?

ntipptop wrote: »

What I have heard is that "An Riocht" are building a new 50 lane, 50 metre range for pistol and gallery rifle, and there's plans to keep benchrest shooters happy also with a range incorporated into it !!! that should make it quite "unlimited" wouldn't you think so turismo

I've never been any good at figuring out whether or not I've offended anyone on a post. The last thing I'd ever do would be to describe an Riocht as Limited in any sense...believe me. My only point is that were we to have anything like the numbers which were at HH last week at an Riocht for the next national the fewer slots would need to be managed and the registration is a good way to do that. Of course, we won't because many people won't travel.

Delighted to hear that the range is being expanded. See you on Sunday!!!

badaj0z

turismo2142 wrote: »

1) the NASRPC AGM turned into a HH/HT v others power struggle (to a large extent and I do appreciate it's an over simplification of matters)

Do you think this could be a "commercial" versus "member" clubs issue?

Rimfire Shooter

badaj0z wrote: »

Do you think this could be a "commercial" versus "member" clubs issue?

Interesting question.

Are there "member" clubs/ranges out there? I'll assume there are considering your question.

badaj0z

Yes, there are, most of the NASRPC affiliated clubs are "members" clubs, AFAIK.

SVI40

Rimfire Shooter wrote: »

Interesting question.

Are there "member" clubs/ranges out there? I'll assume there are considering your question.

My own club, circa 150 members is entirely a members club. All monies raised through membership, and any other means, are for the benefit of the club. Every last cent is put back into improving our facilities.

badaj0z

That is true of the club I am in also. Do you think that the motivation/raison d'etre of commercial clubs is different from commercial clubs/businesses?

Rimfire Shooter

We can safely assume a commercial club has to make a profit, wage or whatever way you want to look at it for it's owners who we'll assume would not include all the paid up members.

A members club is there for the benefit of all the paid up members.

Ones is a business one is a club.

I'd rather be in a members club than a commercial one but geography dictates where I can or will be a member.

turismo2142

I wouldn't poo poo commercial ranges over member ones. There are advantages to both.

It's a most pleasant thing to sit in a toasty harbour house of a winters evening being fed a superb carvery after a day's shooting. That's the kind of thing that tends to be more likely to happen when a business is involved and a well run, warm family business at that.

We need to try to avoid the "one versus the other" narrative. Both are valid. IMHO

Rimfire Shooter

turismo2142 wrote: »

I wouldn't poo poo commercial ranges over member ones. There are advantages to both.

Both are valid.

On reflection I'd agree with that

badaj0z

turismo2142 wrote: »

We need to try to avoid the "one versus the other" narrative. Both are valid. IMHO

True but what if the circumstances cause a dichotomy of feeling between what is good for the club, or what is good for the business? No issue in a members club but maybe not the same in a commercial club?

clivej

Don't really know where you's are coming from as it seems to me that you are saying that HH is a commercial run club. It's non-profit as in what comes in goes out in building up the club.

Few years ago range 3 was built by it's members at a cost of approx. €30k. Quote was in the region of €120k to get built.

Range 4 is nearly complete, 100m full bore, again by it's members, €15k gone into that so far, soon be ready.

All this along with great food when ever anything is run, as well in between events as well. Monthly 'new shooters' safety courses (mandatory), RO courses (fee), Women On Target (fee), Instruction, Tuition (free), A good social community, one of the best shotgun clay ranges, etc................