Seannad Eireann

jezzer

Can anyone tell me in lay mans terms how the heck people get into Seannad Eireann and why do a minority of 3rd level universities seem to have a monopoly on this? why do the likes of career senators like david norris seem to be able to spend their entire lives in the seannad living it up with the handiest number in Ireland, what is the pay for this position? Also why will certain people who failed to win a TD seat suddenly get shoved into the Seannad for a handy fix?

Grolschevik

http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/about/seanad/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seanad_Eireann

http://www.environ.ie/sites/default/files/publications/files/how_the_seanad_2016_is_elected_english.pdf

http://www.terryleyden.com/guide-to-seanad-elections.html

jezzer

Grolschevik wrote: »

http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/about/seanad/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seanad_Eireann

http://www.environ.ie/sites/default/files/publications/files/how_the_seanad_2016_is_elected_english.pdf

http://www.terryleyden.com/guide-to-seanad-elections.html

seems very exclusive and outdated

Fr Tod Umptious

jezzer wrote: »

seems very exclusive and outdated

You may have noticed that the previous government tried to get rid of it but were defeated in a referendum.

henryporter

In real laymans terms every system (whether it be political, technological, financial, whatever) depends on successful outcomes by implementing checks and balances to ensure that decisions and actions are properly examined. Seanad Éireann provides some of that examination process, as does the Council of the State and Uachtarán na hÉireann.

In simple terms we need different groups with different value and belief systems to ensure that the laws and behaviors of the country are morally and legally correct.

Senates have almost always formed part of a Democratic system (with some exceptions - these being used as the reason for getting rid of the Seanad).

In my opinion the Seanad is a necessity, but it needs major reform. You have been somewhat misinformed that the Seanad is a nice earner for University elitists - the Seanad is meant to represent all walks of life in Ireland, eg Agriculture, Industry, Education, and of course Politics. 43 members of the Seanad are selected by the groups other than the Universities, 6 members are elected by the Universities and the Taoiseach gets to pick the remaining 11. So rather than spouting the populist view that the Seanad is made up of "third level universities" it would be better to shout for reform restricting the types of individuals the Taoiseach can nominate, and also find out how you can contribute to the nomination of members in the vocational interests groups.

After the recent election I'm even more convinced of the importance of the Seanad, as we need some kind of steady hand to control the rabble that the 32nd Dail is destined to become...

jezzer

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

You may have noticed that the previous government tried to get rid of it but were defeated in a referendum.

i know, its hard to believe, the same people who went and voted fianna fail last friday :rolleyes:

jezzer

henryporter wrote: »

In real laymans terms every system (whether it be political, technological, financial, whatever) depends on successful outcomes by implementing checks and balances to ensure that decisions and actions are properly examined. Seanad Éireann provides some of that examination process, as does the Council of the State and Uachtarán na hÉireann.

In simple terms we need different groups with different value and belief systems to ensure that the laws and behaviors of the country are morally and legally correct.

Senates have almost always formed part of a Democratic system (with some exceptions - these being used as the reason for getting rid of the Seanad).

In my opinion the Seanad is a necessity, but it needs major reform. You have been somewhat misinformed that the Seanad is a nice earner for University elitists - the Seanad is meant to represent all walks of life in Ireland, eg Agriculture, Industry, Education, and of course Politics. 43 members of the Seanad are selected by the groups other than the Universities, 6 members are elected by the Universities and the Taoiseach gets to pick the remaining 11. So rather than spouting the populist view that the Seanad is made up of "third level universities" it would be better to shout for reform restricting the types of individuals the Taoiseach can nominate, and also find out how you can contribute to the nomination of members in the vocational interests groups.

After the recent election I'm even more convinced of the importance of the Seanad, as we need some kind of steady hand to control the rabble that the 32nd Dail is destined to become...

"ensure that the laws and behaviors of the country are morally and legally correct." so tell me, where was the seanad when fianna fail, the banks and developers were running riot? marc mcsharry was a senator during this time whilst he was involved in serious irregularities with a development company him and his old man "mac the knife" were directors of....

my question is, why do the universaties get a say in who becomes a senator? they are hardly representative of the whole educational establishment in Ireland, what abotu the IT's why dont they have a say in who is elected and why does David Norris always get elected? why cant someone else have a go?

I agree we do need an upper house, but it should be on a part time basis and the nominational process should be overhauled, wiggy cassidy, a good mate of albert reynolds and co couldnt get elected to the dail for love nor money yet he always got to kick his heels as leader of the seanad and pull in a nice salary he shouldnt have been entitled to, the same man called the kyoto agreement the toyota agreement and he advocated that we should build a seperate set of roads in the country for foreign visitors who were used to driving on the other side of the road....how could such an individual end up leader of the upper house in the country...:rolleyes:

henryporter

jezzer wrote: »

"ensure that the laws and behaviors of the country are morally and legally correct." so tell me, where was the seanad when fianna fail, the banks and developers were running riot? marc mcsharry was a senator during this time whilst he was involved in serious irregularities with a development company him and his old man "mac the knife" were directors of....

my question is, why do the universaties get a say in who becomes a senator? they are hardly representative of the whole educational establishment in Ireland, what abotu the IT's why dont they have a say in who is elected and why does David Norris always get elected? why cant someone else have a go?

I agree we do need an upper house, but it should be on a part time basis and the nominational process should be overhauled, wiggy cassidy, a good mate of albert reynolds and co couldnt get elected to the dail for love nor money yet he always got to kick his heels as leader of the seanad and pull in a nice salary he shouldnt have been entitled to, the same man called the kyoto agreement the toyota agreement and he advocated that we should build a seperate set of roads in the country for foreign visitors who were used to driving on the other side of the road....how could such an individual end up leader of the upper house in the country...:rolleyes:

I did state that the Seanad needed reform to remove the clientelism that has pervaded for a very long time (in answer to both the likes of Ray McSharry and Donnie Cassidey and their ilk being handed free passes by the Taoisigh of the day)

As regards your question on Universities I'll rephrase the answer already given: Total Number of Senators in Seanad Eireann: 60. Number of University elected members: 6 - hardly a massive number). IoTs used to be RTCs ie Regional Technical Colleges. Universities used to hand out degrees and RTCs handed out diplomas. That's all changed now but IMO for the wrong reasons as a lot of Degree's being handed out now aren't worth the paper they are written on. Anyways long story short, Universities are still part of the NUI which is Constitutionally the only Educational entity entitled to nominate members to the Seanad.

Btw... I'd rather you pick on Ronan Mullen than David Norris - one's an intellectual, the other has a very warped set of morals.

Charles Babbage

Universities were added in to give TCD a vote, to keep Protestants happy, and they give the same number of seats to the colleges of the NUI, so as it wouldn't look too blatant.

henryporter wrote: »

Anyways long story short, Universities are still part of the NUI which is Constitutionally the only Educational entity entitled to nominate members to the Seanad.

This isn't true. The Seventh Amendment to the constitution allowed the state to determine by law which institutions of higher education would be entitled to elect members of the Seanad. That was passed by 92% in 1979, the government just didn't bother changing anything; it has only been 37 years they'll get around to it.

henryporter

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Universities were added in to give TCD a vote, to keep Protestants happy, and they give the same number of seats to the colleges of the NUI, so as it wouldn't look too blatant.



This isn't true. The Seventh Amendment to the constitution allowed the state to determine by law which institutions of higher education would be entitled to elect members of the Seanad. That was passed by 92% in 1979, the government just didn't bother changing anything; it has only been 37 years they'll get around to it.

I stand corrected - although if Universities give us Ronan Mullan, imagine what IoTs will give us :eek:

Sam Russell

I think that the Senate election should take place at the same time as the Dail elections, and that no Senator can stand for the Dail and no TD can stand for the Senate so that it ceases to be a home for failed TDs or wannabe TDs.

Glebee

I know, maybe we should have a vote to abolish this outdated institution....
Oh wait, we did...

Charles Babbage

Glebee wrote: »

I know, maybe we should have a vote to abolish this outdated institution....
Oh wait, we did...

The concept is not outdated. You may feel the details are outdated, but this requires reform not abolition.

For instance, the Seanad could be used for a form of party list, if someone like the Greens or Renua get a significant vote throughout the State, but no seats, then they might get a Senator.

Sam Russell

Charles Babbage wrote: »

The concept is not outdated. You may feel the details are outdated, but this requires reform not abolition.

For instance, the Seanad could be used for a form of party list, if someone like the Greens or Renua get a significant vote throughout the State, but no seats, then they might get a Senator.

As a consolation prize maybe.

henryporter

Charles Babbage wrote: »

The concept is not outdated. You may feel the details are outdated, but this requires reform not abolition.

For instance, the Seanad could be used for a form of party list, if someone like the Greens or Renua get a significant vote throughout the State, but no seats, then they might get a Senator.

So then James Bannon could become a Senator again :-(

Lockstep

The Seanad as it stands is in pretty poor form: the cliché of it as a politicians' nursery and retirement home is very true. We already had the option to abolish it and we voted to keep it.

The prospects for its reform are very interesting: I'd be quite happy to see it on a party list system (constraining the parish pump politics) or as a committee of the regions (for example, with representatives from Munster, Connacht, Leinster, Dublin and the Irish abroad)

I've little issue with the university senators: senators like Sean Barrett and John Crown at least add a unique voice rather than the usual party hacks. I'd be happy to see less senators on the vocational panels with their replacements elected by IT graduates though.

jezzer

henryporter wrote: »

I did state that the Seanad needed reform to remove the clientelism that has pervaded for a very long time (in answer to both the likes of Ray McSharry and Donnie Cassidey and their ilk being handed free passes by the Taoisigh of the day)

As regards your question on Universities I'll rephrase the answer already given: Total Number of Senators in Seanad Eireann: 60. Number of University elected members: 6 - hardly a massive number). IoTs used to be RTCs ie Regional Technical Colleges. Universities used to hand out degrees and RTCs handed out diplomas. That's all changed now but IMO for the wrong reasons as a lot of Degree's being handed out now aren't worth the paper they are written on. Anyways long story short, Universities are still part of the NUI which is Constitutionally the only Educational entity entitled to nominate members to the Seanad.

Btw... I'd rather you pick on Ronan Mullen than David Norris - one's an intellectual, the other has a very warped set of morals.

well in this day and age universities shouldnt have a monopoly on who gets into the seanad...i know norris has a warped set of morals but i would hardly call Mullen an intellectual??

jezzer

Charles Babbage wrote: »

The concept is not outdated. You may feel the details are outdated, but this requires reform not abolition.

For instance, the Seanad could be used for a form of party list, if someone like the Greens or Renua get a significant vote throughout the State, but no seats, then they might get a Senator.

and that is the whole problem, as mentioned above its a home for failed TD's and wannabe TD's, Marc McSharry spent 11 years in the seanad before he got himself elected, what a joke, its beyond me that we had a chance to get rid of this institution of cronyism and failed to do so....we also went and voted for FF in the general election after all they did...whats wrong with people in this country....that baboon eamon dunphy spent the past 5 years urging people never vote FF again and what does he do in the election? vote FF, he is an icon for idiocy in this country.

jezzer

Lockstep wrote: »

The Seanad as it stands is in pretty poor form: the cliché of it as a politicians' nursery and retirement home is very true. We already had the option to abolish it and we voted to keep it.

The prospects for its reform are very interesting: I'd be quite happy to see it on a party list system (constraining the parish pump politics) or as a committee of the regions (for example, with representatives from Munster, Connacht, Leinster, Dublin and the Irish abroad)

I've little issue with the university senators: senators like Sean Barrett and John Crown at least add a unique voice rather than the usual party hacks. I'd be happy to see less senators on the vocational panels with their replacements elected by IT graduates though.

i think you hit on something there with the representation for regions, it should consist of part time senators who use the position as a voice for the regions and the voting should come from the local regions

jezzer

henryporter wrote: »

So then James Bannon could become a Senator again :-(

thats exactly what is going to happen, bonkers bannon lost his seat so he will be shoved into the seanad now to keep him ticking over until the next election...remember mammy o rourke lost her seat, she was shoved into the seanad