Do you think a referendum on abortion would be passed?(not how you'd vote)

thattequilagirl

Dick phelan wrote: »

On the issue of term limit what should it be then? I find it hard to support abortion at a stage where babies are know to have survived, find it very hard to justify abortion at a late stage like 20+ weeks. So what limit would abortion be at, would it change as medicine advances, like it's lowered because babies can now potentially survive at this stage? At the moment i don't have an issue with abortions early into pregnancy, as pointed out the majority actually happen at the early stage, 9 weeks ect. Issue i have is when you see what i would consider babies of 20 weeks or thereabouts being aborted, i believe at that stage it's hard to not see it as a baby maybe not fully formed yet but certainly not just a collection of cells.

I believe 16 weeks is the earliest a baby can survive outside the womb, so I would support a limit of 14 weeks.

thattequilagirl

Selene Dry Apartment wrote: »

How does telling someone if they are having sex they need to keep in mind the possibility (however small) of a pregnancy occurring (and if it happens then abortion should not be an option) = that drivel you are posting?



How you are arriving at that conclusion is a mystery. I never said they should have known better or kept their legs together. I said if someone gets pregnant they should have the baby and an abortion should not be an option.

The fact that you can't see the link between what you're saying and what I'm saying is a massive part of the problem.

Huntergonzo

Selene Dry Apartment wrote: »

Bizarre stuff completely unrelated to anything I posted.

Haha, oh you, you're gas, might actually be my favourite poster now :-)

Arkady

Elyse Quiet Canoe wrote: »

What brought us the Magdalene laundries was the hatred and stigma of female sexuality, actually. There were hundreds of thousands of unwanted pregnancies in good old contraception free Ireland which happened within the confines of marriage, but those were A-OK.

Not every woman or girl who was committed to a laundry was pregnant. I mean the name of the laundries might give you a bit of a clue as to their ethos?

Failing to see why this makes it ok to take another human life today.

rainbow kirby

thattequilagirl wrote: »

I believe 16 weeks is the earliest a baby can survive outside the womb, so I would support a limit of 14 weeks.

The earliest was just under 22 weeks.

Arkady

thattequilagirl wrote: »

I believe 16 weeks is the earliest a baby can survive outside the womb, so I would support a limit of 14 weeks.

and anyone who wants to terminate another human life between 14 and 24 weeks should head off to England ?

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Arkady wrote: »

Failing to see why this makes it ok to take another human life today.

I was just responding to your mistaken assertion that it was a stigma against unwanted pregnancy that led to the laundries.

Arkady

Elyse Quiet Canoe wrote: »

I was just responding to your mistaken assertion that it was a stigma against unwanted pregnancy that led to the laundries.

It isn't, but still failing to see why this makes it ok to take another human life today ?

thattequilagirl

Arkady wrote: »

It isn't, but still failing to see why this makes it ok to take another human life today ?

They're not directly related- it's a slight tangent from the main thread.

SEPT 23 1989

rainbow kirby wrote: »

I'm comfortable with the UK limit of 24 weeks tbh - the overwhelming majority of procedures (90+%) are in the first trimester anyway with a high proportion of those being before 10 weeks, and many conditions which often result in a TFMR are only diagnosed at 18-22 weeks at the anatomy scan and after some further testing following that.

Are you comfortable with a healthy child being terminated at 24 weeks?

deseil

Arkady wrote: »

It isn't, but still failing to see why this makes it ok to take another human life today ?

Children have such a financial emotional and physical effect on every parent who has them. I respect your opinion and your right to never abort but why should you get to choose anothers path because of your views?
The state does not raise a child, a parent does and if they do not feel able or ready they should be allowed the choice not to.

Arkady

deseil wrote: »

Children have such a financial emotional and physical effect on every parent who has them. I respect your opinion and your right to never abort but why should you get to choose anothers path because of your views?
The state does not raise a child, a parent does and if they do not feel able or ready they should be allowed the choice not to.

They already do, there are thousands of Irish people on waiting lists desperate to adopt who can raise the child and give them a loving fulfilled life and home, where they can become wanted members of Irish society, there isn't any need to end their life because the timing is inconvenient for someone else.

deseil

Arkady wrote: »

They already do, there are thousands of Irish people on waiting lists desperate to adopt who can raise the child and give them a loving fulfilled life and home, where they can become wanted members of Irish society, there isn't any need to end their life because the timing is inconvenient for someone else.

Ah come on!are you seriously suggesting a woman goes through the trauma of carrying a child and giving birth with all her family friends and work colleagues obviously knowing,and then she just gives the baby away and nobody ever talks about it again and she goes on with her life?
Its not going to happen unless we hide her away and go back to the laundry days.

Arkady

deseil wrote: »

Ah come on!are you seriously suggesting a woman goes through the trauma of carrying a child and giving birth with all her family friends and work colleagues obviously knowing,and then she just gives the baby away and nobody ever talks about it again and she goes on with her life?
Its not going to happen unless we hide her away and go back to the laundry days.

Do you not think it's about time that stigma you seem to want to perpetuate and play into was removed from Irish society and stood up to, instead of thinking the solution in order not to offend your precious social standing is killing the child ?

deseil

deseil wrote: »

Ah come on!are you seriously suggesting a woman goes through the trauma of carrying a child and giving birth with all her family friends and work colleagues obviously knowing,and then she just gives the baby away and nobody ever talks about it again and she goes on with her life?
Its not going to happen unless we hide her away and go back to the laundry days.

Imagine what people will think of her if they find out she had an abortion (and word of these things always gets around) if they think giving the baby up for adoption is such a talking point.

bodice ripper

Selene Dry Apartment wrote: »

Imagine what people will think of her if they find out she had an abortion (and word of these things always gets around) if they think giving the baby up for adoption is such a talking point.

I am not an incubator. If I chose to have an abortion, people around me can accept it, or not talk to me again.

deseil

Selene Dry Apartment wrote: »

Imagine what people will think of her if they find out she had an abortion (and word of these things always gets around) if they think giving the baby up for adoption is such a talking point.

Thats her business why would she tell anyone.
Your all so bloody brainwashed.
No one has any right to force a life on another that they dont want! If you personally want or dont want children thats your choice.
Forcing your views on someone you dont know or support in anyway is just plain wrong.

eviltwin

Selene Dry Apartment wrote: »

Imagine what people will think of her if they find out she had an abortion (and word of these things always gets around) if they think giving the baby up for adoption is such a talking point.

Believe it or not most people couldn't care less if a woman has had an abortion.

Kirby

Gay marriage passed. This leads me to believe enough of the population are finally enlightened enough that this would pass. Not everyone, this is still Ireland after all. After the states, we are easily the most religions of the 1st world nations. That's going to take more time to correct.

So I'm guessing it would pass by a slim majority but pass all the same.

Arkady

deseil wrote: »

Forcing your views on someone you dont know or support in anyway is just plain wrong.

But apparently taking their life instead is ok.

eviltwin

eviltwin wrote: »

Believe it or not most people couldn't care less if a woman has had an abortion.

I was pointing out that if the poster thinks people will talk about someone giving birth and putting it up for adoption they will talk as much or most likely more about someone having an abortion.

I'd also imagine that everyone who would vote no, which is very possible to be over 50% of voters would have issue with people who have had one.

deseil wrote: »

Forcing your views on someone you dont know or support in anyway is just plain wrong.

Is that what a person who has killed someone says when they are in jail? Why are people forcing their views on me about murder being wrong.

Arkady

Kirby wrote: »

Gay marriage passed. This leads me to believe enough of the population are finally enlightened enough that this would pass. Not everyone, this is still Ireland after all. After the states, we are easily the most religions of the 1st world nations. That's going to take more time to correct.

Being pro Gay has nothing to do with abortion, nor does religion, atheism or theism.

The rights and wrongs of taking another human life is not dependent on any of these things.

AlexisM

Selene Dry Apartment wrote: »

Imagine what people will think of her if they find out she had an abortion (and word of these things always gets around) if they think giving the baby up for adoption is such a talking point.

What are you on about? 'Word' rarely gets around about people having abortions. Other than 3 friends who told me, I have never heard of anyone else having an abortion even though I must know loads who have going by the numbers. And the 3 friends - no-one knows that they haven't told. No gossip at all. Whereas if they had gone through with the pregnancy, the world and his wife would be gossiping about it.

SEPT 23 1989

I actually think debate on this issue is pointless your personal decision is a gut instinct basic reaction

Just let the people vote no arguments

CaraMay

eviltwin wrote: »

Believe it or not most people couldn't care less if a woman has had an abortion.

That's not the case. I Have two friends who have had an abortion and I privately found it very upsetting for a long time after they told me.

eviltwin

Selene Dry Apartment wrote: »

.

I'd also imagine that everyone who would vote no, which is very possible to be over 50% of voters would have issue with people who have had one..

No you care and you would have issues with it. Most people don't have your narrow view of reality. What would you do if someone close to you had an abortion? Would you distance yourself from them?

eviltwin

CaraMay wrote: »

That's not the case. I Have two friends who have had an abortion and I privately found it very upsetting for a long time after they told me.

Are you still friends?

CaraMay

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

I actually think debate on this issue is pointless your personal decision is a gut instinct basic reaction

Just let the people vote no arguments

Agreed! My gut will never change on this. To my core, I believe that unnecessary termination of life is wrong.

CaraMay

eviltwin wrote: »

Are you still friends?

Very much so. We are going on holidays in May. I've never expressed my feelings to her on the subject but silently I find it sad.

eviltwin

CaraMay wrote: »

Very much so. We are going on holidays in May. I've never expressed my feelings to her on the subject but silently I find it sad.

That's my point, you may not personally agree with it but you haven't let it damage your friendship.

CaraMay

eviltwin wrote: »

That's my point, you may not personally agree with it but you haven't let it damage your friendship.

I don't see what point you are making. I don't think she should have done it. The other girl I haven't seen in years due to distance. If she had asked me my view beforehand I would have told her but no point lecturing two years after the fact.

Dirty Dingus McGee

aaakev wrote: »

I would certainly hope it passed anyway so women could have a free choice over their own bodies. Id say it would be close but i think it would pass

But that is the crux of the issue.

A lot of people don't consider the child the women is carrying to be the womens own body .They've been given a job by nature to carry a child to it's birth.

eviltwin

eviltwin wrote: »

No you care and you would have issues with it. Most people don't have your narrow view of reality. What would you do if someone close to you had an abortion? Would you distance yourself from them?

I don't know to be honest but my opinion of them would change, whether I'd make my feelings known or not I don't know. If I found out in advance I'd do my best to stop them also. Luckily I can't see anyone I know closely even considering an abortion so it's not something I'm likely to be faced with.

eviltwin

CaraMay wrote: »

I don't see what point you are making. I don't think she should have done it. The other girl I haven't seen in years due to distance. If she had asked me my view beforehand I would have told her but no point lecturing two years after the fact.

I'm making the point that while you may personally not agree with abortion very few people will be so offended by it they disown a family member or stop talking to someone. I'm very open about having had an abortion and I come from a very religious background. Only one person has ever had an issue with it. Nobody else cares.

The Randy Riverbeast

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

But that is the crux of the issue.

A lot of people don't consider the child the women is carrying to be the womens own body .They've been given a job by nature to carry a child to it's birth.

What nature thinks is irrelevant. If it was up to nature our child mortality rate would be multiple times higher than it is.

CaraMay

eviltwin wrote: »

I'm making the point that while you may personally not agree with abortion very few people will be so offended by it they disown a family member or stop talking to someone. I'm very open about having had an abortion and I come from a very religious background. Only one person has ever had an issue with it. Nobody else cares.

But I do care. I somewhat grieved the loss of two babies. I suppose if I'm to be honest my opinion of them has changed. I now see them as harder and more mercenary tbh. Both abortions were down to bad timing. Not atrocious timing, just bad timing. Not enough to abort IMHO but you and I will never agree on this.

LoonyLovegood

I have incredibly mixed feelings on this. Incredibly mixed. I considered myself pro life until I had a pregnancy scare, and then I was counting up everything I had and trying to work out if I could get a credit union loan or if I could afford to get to England. It's a terrifying feeling, being 20 and just out of an abusive relationship and thinking that you could have a remnant of the worst time in your life forever.

And now? I don't know. Right now I don't know if I'd have an abortion - I certainly can't afford one - and I'm in an ok enough spot where I think that I could take care of a child, if it happened. But I don't know.

And that's the thing, that would be my decision. My decision, and if the father was in the picture, he'd be involved in making it. But I don't feel that it's fair for me to make that decision for any other woman, because when I think back to 20 year old me it's terrifying that someone would make me remember that time in my life even more than I already do. So I guess the best way I can describe myself is pro choice, but I don't know if I would have the mental courage to have one myself.

As an aside, I was going to Manchester to see a friend last year, and the glares I got from people on my flight over were something else. I was sitting beside another young woman around my age, and she was going over for an abortion. We sat and talked, and then we were on the same flight back that evening. There were a couple of other people there who had been on the flight that morning, and the glares that both of us got - in our early twenties, female and without rings on our left hands - were horrible. I was judged for something I hadn't done, and my heart goes out to the other woman who had made what she called the hardest decision of her life.

eviltwin

CaraMay wrote: »

But I do care. I somewhat grieved the loss of two babies. I suppose if I'm to be honest my opinion of them has changed. I now see them as harder and more mercenary tbh. Both abortions were down to bad timing. Not atrocious timing, just bad timing. Not enough to abort IMHO but you and I will never agree on this.

Exactly so there is no point even discussing it. These threads just go round in circles and insults on both sides. I can completely understand where you are coming from with your views but I know my opinion will never change so I know yours won't either.

Malari

LoonyLovegood wrote: »

I have incredibly mixed feelings on this. Incredibly mixed. I considered myself pro life until I had a pregnancy scare, and then I was counting up everything I had and trying to work out if I could get a credit union loan or if I could afford to get to England. It's a terrifying feeling, being 20 and just out of an abusive relationship and thinking that you could have a remnant of the worst time in your life forever.

And now? I don't know. Right now I don't know if I'd have an abortion - I certainly can't afford one - and I'm in an ok enough spot where I think that I could take care of a child, if it happened. But I don't know.

And that's the thing, that would be my decision. My decision, and if the father was in the picture, he'd be involved in making it. But I don't feel that it's fair for me to make that decision for any other woman, because when I think back to 20 year old me it's terrifying that someone would make me remember that time in my life even more than I already do. So I guess the best way I can describe myself is pro choice, but I don't know if I would have the mental courage to have one myself.

As an aside, I was going to Manchester to see a friend last year, and the glares I got from people on my flight over were something else. I was sitting beside another young woman around my age, and she was going over for an abortion. We sat and talked, and then we were on the same flight back that evening. There were a couple of other people there who had been on the flight that morning, and the glares that both of us got - in our early twenties, female and without rings on our left hands - were horrible. I was judged for something I hadn't done, and my heart goes out to the other woman who had made what she called the hardest decision of her life.

But...hundreds of women fly to the UK every day. For hundreds of reasons. Why on earth do you think anyone assumes you are going for an abortion? Are these glares from people who overheard your conversation?

CaraMay

eviltwin wrote: »

Exactly so there is no point even discussing it. These threads just go round in circles and insults on both sides. I can completely understand where you are coming from with your views but I know my opinion will never change so I know yours won't either.

Let's agree to disagree and I hope I didn't insult you. I don't want to but I just don't agree with what you are saying

eviltwin

CaraMay wrote: »

Let's agree to disagree and I hope I didn't insult you. I don't want to but I just don't agree with what you are saying

Gosh no not at all. It's lovely to have a nice, rational talk about it with someone who has an opposing view for a change

Dirty Dingus McGee

The Randy Riverbeast wrote: »

What nature thinks is irrelevant. If it was up to nature our child mortality rate would be multiple times higher than it is.

When a woman is pregnant their body isn't solely theirs for those 9 months whether people want to think it or not it simply isn't.

Just like when people have children their lives aren't solely their own anymore and they have to make decisions based on that as they are expected to look after something that can't care for itself.

bodice ripper

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

When a woman is pregnant their body isn't solely theirs for those 9 months whether people want to think it or not it simply isn't.

Just like when people have children their lives aren't solely their own anymore and they have to make decisions based on that as they are expected to look after something that can't care for itself.

Your argument by assertion wouldn't trouble me one bit as I ended the pregnancy.

Dirty Dingus McGee

PhoenixParker wrote: »

I don't see it as taking another human life.

Even if it is a life, at best it's a life on life support which is the sole purview of one person who should not be compelled to maintain that life support against their wishes. In every other case where a single individual can through a personal sacrifice save another's life (from blood donation, to organ donation, to jumping into a river to save someone) it is their decision and their decision only. Pregnancy should not be some magical exception.

So if someone has a child they should then be entitled to not feed it or look after it and let it die?

emo72

LoonyLovegood wrote: »

As an aside, I was going to Manchester to see a friend last year, and the glares I got from people on my flight over were something else. I was sitting beside another young woman around my age, and she was going over for an abortion.

are you sure they were glaring at you? how would anyone know if someone was having an abortion? and more importantly id imagine most people on a flight would be sympathetic also, and if i overheard anyone speaking about abortion i would keep out of it. none of my business.

wokingvoter

bodice ripper wrote: »

I am not an incubator. If I chose to have an abortion, people around me can accept it, or not talk to me again.

So you support a woman's right to choose to abort a baby with no regard to time limits then?

PopePalpatine

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

So if someone has a child they should then be entitled to not feed it or look after it and let it die?

I'm pretty sure that PhoenixParker was referring to the fact that the only thing keeping a foetus alive for at least the first six months after its conception is the umbilical cord between it and the woman carrying it.

Dirty Dingus McGee

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that PhoenixParker was referring to the fact that the only thing keeping a foetus alive for at least the first six months after its conception is the umbilical cord between it and the woman carrying it.

The poster said:

"
Even if it is a life, at best it's a life on life support which is the sole purview of one person who should not be compelled to maintain that life support against their wishes. In every other case where a single individual can through a personal sacrifice save another's life (from blood donation, to organ donation, to jumping into a river to save someone) it is their decision and their decision only. Pregnancy should not be some magical exception."

That theory could equally apply to raising a child also.

If don't feed a young child then they die.Children are completely dependent on their parents in order to help them survive and parents are compelled by law (and common decency) to look after their children properly and make sure they don't die through neglect.

PopePalpatine

Maybe PhoenixParker has a better idea of what they're talking about, but I'm guessing they didn't count feeding an already-born baby as "life support".

Smidge

CaraMay wrote: »

Hi evil twin

I guess the difference for me is that the fetus relies on one person to survive whereas a born child can be raised by anybody. I don't believe in abortion as contraception tbh but I do see how it could be necessary in other circumstances.

My gut tells me it's wrong to mirder a child whether born or not and that it's not fair to use the 'it's my body' line as an excuse. Yes it's your body but it is a short term incubator for a baby. A baby of your making. To me that's a whole human being who won't be around in 10 years time because of the 'mothers' decision.

I've a number of friends and family members who are adopted and I'm glad their mothers had / chose to have them. Thinking about them being aborted just upsets me no end.

I guess, as I don't agree with abortion other than for medical / mental health reasons eg after rape etc then I think of its against the laws of the land then people should be treated accordingly.

C

And here lies the real crux of the issue.

Women are still, in this day and age, seen as mere "incubators".
No lives of our own, no other obligations, no mortgages, no bills.
Just to be an incubator for seed.
WEmade the baby, so therefore must bear the consequences.
And considering that we are just "vessels" for the unborn should just shut up about it and suck it up.
It ABSOLUTELY is the woman's body, woman's choice for a reason.
The baby is guaranteed, the father is NOT. That's the reality, like it or not.

I have had so many friends left "holding baby" (all working before the dole brigade arrives)and now their lives with no support from fathers who have flown the coop, are just incredibly difficult. Very easy to talk the talk from the sidelines tbh, not so easy in the day to day mire.

But that aside, I can practically guarantee that there isnt a woman out there who has had an abortion on a "whim".
Believe me, its no picnic.
I accompanied a friend to have one once.
It was desperately sad.
Married couples.
Older women alone(may have had medical issues/age was a factor)
And women alone
All looking very sad.
All Irish in a UK clinic.(six, including my friend)
All went through with it that day, for what ever the reason.
I spoke with the nurse while my friend was under.
She said the reason a lot of the Irish patients were upset was that they were having a procedure done in another country and that was common. Make of that what you will.