Ireland's International Military and Civil Cooperation

TripleC

Sorry for going AWOL in the middle of a discussion.

Further to some of the points raised on the previous page:

I think the Commissioners of Irish Lights are at least part funded by HM Government. I assume that giving full control of this area to the NS (as is the case with several foreign Navies) would actually result in a exponential increase in costs.

As for the Marine Institute and Customs vessels, I have seen the argument put forward several time that in a Country our size there really isn't any sense in having multiple Maritime agencies operating very small fleets all working to cross purposes. There is something to be said for it I suppose.

For me the jury is still out on the X-BOW. Supposedly it cuts through water more efficiently and hence quicker. However, I have only seen it operating in relatively calm water. I actually doubts its abilities in the North Atlantic.

C

sparky42

TripleC wrote: »

Sorry for going AWOL in the middle of a discussion.

Further to some of the points raised on the previous page:

I think the Commissioners of Irish Lights are at least part funded by HM Government. I assume that giving full control of this area to the NS (as is the case with several foreign Navies) would actually result in a exponential increase in costs.

As for the Marine Institute and Customs vessels, I have seen the argument put forward several time that in a Country our size there really isn't any sense in having multiple Maritime agencies operating very small fleets all working to cross purposes. There is something to be said for it I suppose.

For me the jury is still out on the X-BOW. Supposedly it cuts through water more efficiently and hence quicker. However, I have only seen it operating in relatively calm water. I actually doubts its abilities in the North Atlantic.

C

Is the Irish Lights still part funded by the UK, I know that was part of the Treaty, but I thought that ended in the last couple of decades?

Yawlboy

sparky42 wrote: »

Is the Irish Lights still part funded by the UK, I know that was part of the Treaty, but I thought that ended in the last couple of decades?

Irish Lights are responsible for both the North and South of Ireland.

http://www.irishlights.ie/who-we-are/organisation-board.aspx

TripleC

sparky42 wrote: »

Is the Irish Lights still part funded by the UK, I know that was part of the Treaty, but I thought that ended in the last couple of decades?

Yes I am pretty sure they do. Someone involved in the area mentioned to me that it actually saves us a great deal of money each year.

murphym7

sparky42 wrote: »

Is the Irish Lights still part funded by the UK, I know that was part of the Treaty, but I thought that ended in the last couple of decades?

Aim is to have CIL being self funding from Irish due's.

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/commissioners-of-irish-lights

sparky42

Ren2k7 wrote: »

Grand stuff lads. I don't expect Irish people, least of all those here, to give a stuff about running our own state services. Tell you what, since no one gives a ****e about the lighthouse service being partially under UK authority let's do a similar deal with the Coast Guard (what little there is it of it) and the same of the NS. Actually, let's go one better and just get the Royal Navy to take over patrols in Irish waters. We could even give the Treaty Ports back to them.

You are aware that co supporting/funding joint operations isn't something new in Europe right, it's been around for sometime? You have the examples of the NATO AWAC's squadron, the NATO Airlift Squadron, just recently the Germans and the Dutch have decided to combine Marine units, just like France and Germany have integrated units.

At the foundation of the state, those that were there argued that the UK benefited more from the lighthouse system in Ireland and therefore should pay for it's upkeep, since then no Irish Government or the people (who remember didn't care that the Navy was allowed to wither away twice) have even thought of it, and the UK has been willing to fund the agreed amount. Even today NI has the main transatlantic emergency runway (can't remember the technical rating it has but it is above the rest of the islands ones) as the RAF/UK paid/pays for it, should we duplicate the upgrades to one of our own airports just to stick a Tricolour on it?

I hardly see this as some great assault on the sovereignty of the nation or some such, just another quirk of Anglo-Irish history.

sparky42

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

its a capital idea but i dont think they can spare the ships at the moment.

Indeed the RN cupboard is pretty bare and looks like it's going to remain that way for the next decade or more baring a miracle/disaster.

ohnonotgmail

sparky42 wrote: »

Indeed the RN cupboard is pretty bare and looks like it's going to remain that way for the next decade or more baring a miracle/disaster.

i posted that in jest but i had a look at the surface fleet and it is indeed very bare. Perhaps they might be able to spare HMS Gleaner.

OzCam

Ren2k7 wrote: »

...Tell you what, since no one gives a ****e about the lighthouse service being partially under UK authority...

Perhaps the word you're looking for is "joint". Or maybe even "cooperation".

Welcome to our interconnected and interdependent world, bud

xper

Ren2k7 wrote: »

Grand stuff lads. I don't expect Irish people, least of all those here, to give a stuff about running our own state services. Tell you what, since no one gives a ****e about the lighthouse service being partially under UK authority let's do a similar deal with the Coast Guard (what little there is it of it) and the same of the NS. Actually, let's go one better and just get the Royal Navy to take over patrols in Irish waters. We could even give the Treaty Ports back to them.

I presume you are also similarly outraged by the existence of the likes of Waterways Ireland, Tourism Ireland, the Food Safety Promotion Board and InterTradeIreland. Cross border cooperation, sicken' you, wouldn't it.

I am happy to report I've yet to see a British flag flying on the Irish Lights HQ in Dun Laoghaire harbour.

sparky42 wrote: »

... Even today NI has the main transatlantic emergency runway (can't remember the technical rating it has but it is above the rest of the islands ones) as the RAF/UK paid/pays for it, should we duplicate the upgrades to one of our own airports just to stick a Tricolour on it?

Eh, have to say you're off on a solo run with this example. Shannon has the longest runway on the island and it receives by far the majority of trans Atlantic diversions in this part of the world. And, anyway, there's no obligation on states to provide aviation emergency facilities up to particular capability for air traffic that may happen to be passing nearby. So it's not like Shannon fulfils some sort of legal responsibility of the U.K. or elsewhere, it's just handy to have it where it is.
But I digress...

sparky42

xper wrote: »

I presume you are also similarly outraged by the existence of the likes of Waterways Ireland, Tourism Ireland, the Food Safety Promotion Board and InterTradeIreland. Cross border cooperation, sicken' you, wouldn't it.

I am happy to report I've yet to see a British flag flying on the Irish Lights HQ in Dun Laoghaire harbour.

Eh, have to say you're off on a solo run with this example. Shannon has the longest runway on the island and it receives by far the majority of trans Atlantic diversions in this part of the world. And, anyway, there's no obligation on states to provide aviation emergency facilities up to particular capability for air traffic that may happen to be passing nearby. So it's not like Shannon fulfils some sort of legal responsibility of the U.K. or elsewhere, it's just handy to have it where it is.
But I digress...

This would seem to suggest otherwise, not for "normal emergencies" but still:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-32443172

Heraldoffreeent

Aldergrove is ILS IIIB

Cork Airport RWY 17 is suitable for Category II operations.
Dublin Airport RWY 10 is suitable for Category II and IIIA operations.
Dublin Airport RWY 28 is suitable for Category II and IIIA operations.
Ireland West Airport RWY 27 is suitable for Category II operations.
Shannon Airport RWY 24 is suitable for CAT II operations.

There's a CAT IIIC, but as of yet it's not operational anywhere in the world.

There are many diversions to Shannon, but they can be for various reasons, Pax acting the maggot, Minor/mid level technical issues etc which don't require Cat IIIB.

For ILS info read here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument_landing_system

sparky42

Heraldoffreeent wrote: »

Aldergrove is ILS IIIB

Cork Airport RWY 17 is suitable for Category II operations.
Dublin Airport RWY 10 is suitable for Category II and IIIA operations.
Dublin Airport RWY 28 is suitable for Category II and IIIA operations.
Ireland West Airport RWY 27 is suitable for Category II operations.
Shannon Airport RWY 24 is suitable for CAT II operations.

There's a CAT IIIC, but as of yet it's not operational anywhere in the world.

There are many diversions to Shannon, but they can be for various reasons, Pax acting the maggot, Minor/mid level technical issues etc which don't require Cat IIIB.

For ILS info read here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument_landing_system

Thanks for that Herald, am I right in thinking so that Aldergrove is the "highest" rated on the island (for lack of a better word)?

xper

sparky42 wrote: »

This would seem to suggest otherwise, not for "normal emergencies" but still:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-32443172

Ah, I see. That article is a puff piece written by a journalist who was not familiar with the technical jargon being fed to him. The sentence about Belfast being the main emergency airport for the island is just utter nonsense, it's meaningless guff.

CAT ratings determine different minimum criteria under which a legal/safe landing can be made in low visibility assisted by an instrument landing system. The criteria embrace a specific runway's facilities (markings, lighting, ILS equipment, terrain and obstacle clearance), the autopilot capabilities of the landing aircraft and the training and currency of the aircraft's crew in auto land techniques. The article implies Runway 25 at Aldergrove is rated for CAT III B operations which is indeed very high. By comparison, Runway 24 at Shannon has CAT II facilities, I think, which is typical for the primary landing runway of many major airports.

Which is all kind of moot. Investing in a high CAT capability is more about being able to maintain normal commercial operations during low visibility weather and the frequency with which those conditions occur at a given location and whether the cost offsets the cost of disrupted ops. It has very little to do with providing for emergencies. When an aircraft commander feels a very urgent need to be on the ground, the primary question is "what is the nearest runway capable of accommodating my aircraft?" It would take a very freakish set of circumstances where the difference between a CAT II ILS and a CAT III B ILS at two airports over a hundred miles apart would come into consideration. Shannon gets lots of diversions because, for a large swathe of the north Atlantic, it happens to be the nearest airport that can actually take the kinds of aircraft found on those routes. It's a question of convenience rather than designation.

TripleC

Hey Gang

Personally I don't see the issue with the Commissioners of Irish lights. Much like the RNLI, certain organisations simply function better and more efficiently on an All-Ireland or Super Regional basis.

In addition its actually a sweetheart deal for us. We get a State of the Art coastal protection system, which provides Irish people with excellent jobs and another Country picks up the tab saving us millions.

Heraldoffreeent

sparky42 wrote: »

Thanks for that Herald, am I right in thinking so that Aldergrove is the "highest" rated on the island (for lack of a better word)?

Essentially yes, but as has been said, Shannon gets a disproportionate amount of diverts, both because of its location in relation to many transatlantic flights, and also because its far enough away from any high density population centre.

I've a suspicion, and its only that, that Aldergrove is tooled up the way it is because it would suit any problems that might occur on Mil flights that might be carrying any hush hush kit and/or tooled up with live nuclear stuff.

That would suit the RAF and the US, as it would cause uproar should it get out that Weapons grade landed in Shannon, emergency or not.