Firearm & ammo - Main importers closing, and scarcity

Cass

Was talking to a few lads in the range over the weekend as well as two RFDs in the last week that told me Millard Brothers has closed their doors. No longer importing Savage rifles or anything else they used to do.

That is another manufacturer of the check list. With Ardee Sports no longer doing Beretta (and some other stuff) the list of main dealers is getting shorter.

Makes me wonder is this a good thing or bad? I ask because a main importer can set the price and the dealers buy at this price and sell for a higher price, hence profit. So will it allow for a cheaper product if dealers import directly and cut out the middle man. Or will prices vary hugely form dealer to dealer. Will they all put the prices up regardless of savings (if any) to gain higher profits in a time when RFDs are struggling to stay open?

The topic brings up another issue i've found in the last week or so. Ammo. Trying to get 9 mm ammo is getting harder and harder. It used to be that most RFDs carried some line of it but, understandably, recently i can only find three. Now that is three that are within a reasonable distance to me.

Even with three, two of them told me that they only carry a small amount as they won't "risk" carrying large amounts of various calibers (mainly pistol calibers) for fear of it sitting for months or longer. So it can be gone faster than it comes in. Meaning i run the risk of running out.

Then there is rifle ammo. There are a couple of types in the various calibers that can be gotten everywhere. Then there are some that simply cannot be gotten or when it does come in it does so is such small amounts that it's gone before you even know it was back in stock.

Steelmatch in any caliber, a couple of the V-max family in .223, to name a few. I'm told they can only get small quantities. I've heard the stories about China buying all the steel in the world so it's getting harder to make them. However other brands such as Wolf and Tulammo that use steel casings have no such issues and i can find it in a few dealers in good quantities.

yubabill1

Very sad to hear about Millard. Had some good friends there many years ago.
Presume they will keep the fishing side going.
On the availability side, rfds will always stock the most profitable lines in preference to the most popular, in my experience.

long range shooter

Its been a shortage of ammo in the US for the last 6-7 years,and reason being people have no limits of ammo storage there,and buy massive in bulk.
Lately its been short of 22 lr and 22 wmr,but also other calibers.
I think this is one of the reasons its shortage of ammo in Europe as well.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008–13_United_States_ammunition_shortage

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadian-gun-owners-hoard-bullets-in-face-of-feared-shortage-of-ammunition-from-u-s

http://www.forbes.com/sites/frankminiter/2015/10/27/remember-the-ammo-shortage-it-has-quietly-fueled-a-manufacturing-revival/#16794a951c13

Cass

I've had a few RFDs tell me that their supplier will only sell them bulk quantities (in the thousands at a time) yet they never have more than one or two thoudand per order. It seems to contradict what they say.

IOW if they sell out of (example) Steelmatch in a week afer buying 1,000 ye they say the supplier will only sell in batches of 5,000 then buy the 5,000. Based on current sales it won't last long.And if they have to sit on it for a few weeks to a month then big deal.

I was looking for some ammo recently and was told they only got a couple of thousand. One person was in the shop when they got it, seen it, and because they had a large allowance on their license bought all 2,000 rounds. So the order myself and others have waited for was gone in seconds. So how would buying in 10,000 be such a "risk".

long range shooter

Cass wrote: »

I've had a few RFDs tell me that their supplier will only sell them bulk quantities (in the thousands at a time) yet they never have more than one or two thoudand per order. It seems to contradict what they say.

IOW if they sell out of (example) Steelmatch in a week afer buying 1,000 ye they say the supplier will only sell in batches of 5,000 then buy the 5,000. Based on current sales it won't last long.And if they have to sit on it for a few weeks to a month then big deal.

I was looking for some ammo recently and was told they only got a couple of thousand. One person was in the shop when they got it, seen it, and because they had a large allowance on their license bought all 2,000 rounds. So the order myself and others have waited for was gone in seconds. So how would buying in 10,000 be such a "risk".

Yes i agree with that,problem is people buy large quantities in bulk,and then it will be gone in no time.
And since we cant do reloading,except for target shooters,it will always be a problem in Ireland.
RDFs probably wont buy large quantities because of the ever changing gunlaws and politics across Europe,its a never ending story,i wouldnt blame them.
With the uncertainty in the gun politics at the moment,i think they are holding back on any large orders.

Cass

long range shooter wrote: »

Yes i agree with that,problem is people buy large quantities in bulk,and then it will be gone in no time.

Exactly my point.

If certain ammo is selling as soon as it comes in then buy more. Assuming its available of course. I'm not asking for or expecting them to bring in large quantities of obscure calibers.

And since we cant do reloading,except for target shooters,it will always be a problem in Ireland.

Not going to turn this thread into another debate on reloading, but on that point. Reloading is not the answer.

Reloading is useful, it really is. It makes most firearms more accurate. However in this instance and in keeping with the theme of the thread what good is being able to reload if you cannot get the components. If manufacturers are selling out of live ammo, bullets, casings, etc. what do you do? Also you now you have the added hassle of getting the propellant you want. Remember that each person prefers or uses a certain propellant, and then some propellants are only useful in certain circumstances or calibers.

RDFs probably wont buy large quantities because of the ever changing gunlaws and politics across Europe,its a never ending story,i wouldnt blame them.

See there is where i have a problem understanding things. The calibers were talking about are "regular" calibers. IOW ones that are very common and are not under any sort of direct threat from any legislation.

With the uncertainty in the gun politics at the moment,i think they are holding back on any large orders.

Correct and i do understand not ordering in huge quantites that may sit for months on end, but i'm not talking about 6.5x47, 7mm-08, .260 Rem, or any other caliber that is not common. I'm talking about .223, 308, .22lr, and the same brand. So V-Max, A-Max, etc. In various loads (.223) 40gr, 53gr, 55gr, up to 75gr.

IOW you're not ordering numerous different types from dozens of manufacturers. It's a specified amount of the most popular which usually is from one to three different manufacturers. Also as most RFDs don't order directly from the manufacturer, they order from an intermediary supplier, they can order the various types which when combined would constitute a large enough order to warrant getting more of the popular type and some of the less popular type.

juice1304

Thats sad to hear, they imported a special order for me there a few years ago. And the price was smashing not seen the same rifle so cheap even here in germany.

Cass

My experiences with them were not great. I only had two interactions with them. In the first instance they did not know the type of gun i wanted even though a local dealer had 2 in stock. As a main importer i found this poor. The second time they wanted €200+ more for a rifle than a local dealer could supply it for. I know the reason why so i'm not blaming them, but it discouraged buying/'ordering from them.

All that said it's another loss for the shooting community. Another resource gone. There is little to no hope of anyone else taking it on. Same when Ardee lost/gave up Beretta. It reverted back (not that it was gone) solely to McCloys in Antrim who get from the main importer, GMK, in the UK.

long range shooter

Cass wrote: »

Reloading is useful, it really is. It makes most firearms more accurate. However in this instance and in keeping with the theme of the thread what good is being able to reload if you cannot get the components. If manufacturers are selling out of live ammo, bullets, casings, etc. what do you do? Also you now you have the added hassle of getting the propellant you want. Remember that each person prefers or uses a certain propellant, and then some propellants are only useful in certain circumstances or calibers

For hunting you dont need reloading very much,however certain brands of targetshooting,especially long range,you wont get far without reloading.
But then again,an accurate load during hunting doesnt hurt either.
if you have both options,its easier to get either,and easier to get or make ammo.
But its just based on my experience living in Norway,but then again they have atleast 2 ammo factories there,that helps alot.

Cass

long range shooter wrote: »

For hunting you dont need reloading very much,however certain brands of targetshooting,especially long range,you wont get far without reloading.

For long range target shooting, absolutely. Its why it was sought for F-Class. Could not be competitive without it.

But then again,an accurate load during hunting doesnt hurt either.

True.

if you have both options,its easier to get either,and easier to get or make ammo.

Not necessarily. Perhaps elsewhere, but not here.

But its just based on my experience living in Norway,but then again they have at least 2 ammo factories there,that helps alot.

Well it doesn't hurt.

Reloading aside, as it's not really practical to discuss it given current circumstances, my irritation is aimed more at factory ammo and it's lack of availability. It's not aimed, at least not solely, at the RFDs as i understand they are limited to some extent.

I just wish they could get more in, more of what is wanted, and take a chance on Irish shooters by helping keep shooting sports going by providing us with the stuff we need.

Nothing worse than finding/having a good round but cutting down on your shooting for fear of running out of it.

long range shooter

Cass wrote: »

For long range target shooting, absolutely. Its why it was sought for F-Class. Could not be competitive without it.

True.

Not necessarily. Perhaps elsewhere, but not here.

Well it doesn't hurt.

Reloading aside, as it's not really practical to discuss it given current circumstances, my irritation is aimed more at factory ammo and it's lack of availability. It's not aimed, at least not solely, at the RFDs as i understand they are limited to some extent.

I just wish they could get more in, more of what is wanted, and take a chance on Irish shooters by helping keep shooting sports going by providing us with the stuff we need.

Nothing worse than finding/having a good round but cutting down on your shooting for fear of running out of it.

I fully agree,i am just glad we got to the stage where we can reload for the f class shooting atleast.Like you said in competitions you wont get any results without it.
And i understand where you are coming from regarding ammo,its no worse feeling than not being able to get ammo when you are a waiting for hunting season or need it for practice shooting at the range.
ill stick too long range and f class for now,and hope the powder stays dry:D

yubabill1

yubabill1 wrote: »

On the availability side, rfds will always stock the most profitable lines in preference to the most popular, in my experience.

To rephrase; if a rfd makes 1 dollar per box of Brand A and 5 dollars per box of Brand B, he's not going to worry about keeping Brand A in stock, especially if he can get the customer to buy a box of Brand B "until the order comes in"

TeaBagMania

long range shooter wrote: »

Its been a shortage of ammo in the US for the last 6-7 years,and reason being people have no limits of ammo storage there,and buy massive in bulk.
Lately its been short of 22 lr and 22 wmr,but also other calibers.
I think this is one of the reasons its shortage of ammo in Europe as well.

Yeah it was bad a few years ago but I would say for the last year you can get anything you want. 22lr was almost impossible to find and when you did find it they would limit you to one box, doesn’t really make it worth the cost when you factor in shipping.I remember reading awhile back that in Ireland you can only store X amount of ammo, was it like 200 rounds per firearm?

long range shooter

Yeah i guess its on its way up again,same with the economy,i guess these go hand in hand as well.;)
In ireland you can store up to 1000 rounds if you are targetshooting,not sure about hunting.

Cass

yubabill1 wrote: »

To rephrase; if a rfd makes 1 dollar per box of Brand A and 5 dollars per box of Brand B, he's not going to worry about keeping Brand A in stock, especially if he can get the customer to buy a box of Brand B "until the order comes in"

That is the worst business plan i've ever heard. I'd sooner sell 5 boxes of what the customer wants than 1 box of what they'll settle for and keep the customer returning. I for one wouldn't even buy the single box. I either get what i want/need or i don't buy. I'm not going to rezero my rifle for 20 rounds.

Its the same mentality whereby some RFDs are/were selling the same items at 10-20% above cost. Thinking behind it was i'll make a killing on this for as long as it last instead of i'll make a decent profit and keep a returning customer.

TeaBagMania wrote: »

I remember reading a while back that in Ireland you can only store X amount of ammo, was it like 200 rounds per firearm?

You can have whatever is on your license. For example i can have 1,500 9mm, 3,000 .308, 2,000 .22lr and 1,500 cartridges in 12g.

I've shown good reason for needing these amounts so i was granted them.

TeaBagMania

Cass wrote: »

Its the same mentality whereby some RFDs are/were selling the same items at 10-20% above cost. Thinking behind it was i'll make a killing on this for as long as it last instead of i'll make a decent profit and keep a returning customer.

Exactly, there is an ammo manufacturer just north of where I live selling good ammo at a reasonable price.
Then panic struck and ammo was in short supply the manufacturer started price gouging…
Well, now that demand is down they are spamming my email with offers. I’ll never purchase from them again.
They lost a regular customer for profit and greed

yubabill1

Cass wrote: »

That is the worst business plan i've ever heard. I'd sooner sell 5 boxes of what the customer wants than 1 box of what they'll settle for and keep the customer returning. I for one wouldn't even buy the single box. I either get what i want/need or i don't buy. I'm not going to rezero my rifle for 20 rounds.

On the contrary, the modern way in business is Regulatory Capture - create a captive market, which has no choice worth talking about, so they buy what's available, eventually.

Still got a local butcher, fishmonger or greengrocer?

long range shooter

Cass wrote: »

You can have whatever is on your license. For example i can have 1,500 9mm, 3,000 .308, 2,000 .22lr and 1,500 cartridges in 12g.

I've shown good reason for needing these amounts so i was granted them.

Didnt know this,i guess i have to increase my amount on my next license:D
Always thought 1000 was the limit,thanks.
How does this work if you have cases as well at home for reloading?

Cass

yubabill1 wrote: »

On the contrary, the modern way in business is Regulatory Capture - create a captive market, which has no choice worth talking about, so they buy what's available, eventually.

Excuse me, but i call bullsh*t on that. Not the practice (although i don't agree with it), but on thought this is occurring. The shooting community is too small, as is evident from some manufacturers "ignoring" of Ireland in terms of priority shipping or shipping of goods at all.

You can dress up the rip off attitude any way you want but when one RFD is selling a product for €10 and the other for €13-€15 there is no excuse. Let me give you a few examples from four dealers close to me:

• CZ455 - €525, €575, €595, €650.
• Eley Alphamax - €10.50, €12.50, €13, €13.50
• A-Tec Suppressor - €295, €295, €300, €300
• Ase Utra Suppressor - €320, €340, €345, €420
• Torch - €125, €145, €145, €165
• .223 ammo - €12.50, €13, €14.50, €14.50
• Remington 700 C/F - €1,050, €1,200, N/A, €1,295

I could go on.

I've had this debate before and discussed overheads, staff, costs, etc. I'm not really interested in getting into another debate because it always drags out and i never get a satisfactory answer. However when you have places adding upwards of 20% onto prices of items available at other dealers there is no excuse and anyone that pays the higher price without shopping around is only encouraging this rip off.

As for the "you'll buy eventually", well no. I won't. I'll go without rather than encourage this practice of the quick buck. Stupid, but recent example. Phone credit. It's €10 for the ticket, and i only get €10 worth of credit. The shops charge €10.50. I'll buy from a machine or if not available go without until i find a machine.

Still got a local butcher, fishmonger or greengrocer?

Yes, yes, and yes.

long range shooter wrote: »

Always thought 1000 was the limit,thanks.

No. No limit. Once you can show good reason you can have as many as you can justify.

How does this work if you have cases as well at home for reloading?

They count towards your total amount. Hence the reason i have higher amounts on certain calibers.

yubabill1

I take it you are not calling me a bull****ter andI am with you on resisting the practice - I make a point of it - but this is the modern way.

You may have a butcher etc., but most every one where I am has closed, so count yourself one of the lucky few. The big supermarkets are killing them wholesale, as are the likes of BWG killing the small independent shops - very few that are not centra, mace, londis, spar (all BWG franchises).

Rfds have a captive market and I've been in business long enough to recognise lazy practice - my local rfd has been doing it for 10 years now ( going there since late seventies) and he gets sfa from me unless I'm really, really stuck.

I've stood the other side of the counter more than most and made a living by giving value, but part of the reason I moved out was because the suppliers in my sector started meeting every Monday to set prices.

Grizzly 45

On the .22 ammo shortage.Its coming back on the shelves again in the US,depending of course if Hillary or Bernie or the Don get into power. If Killary or Bernie get in watch the gun salea markets and ammo literally explode and make O bamas gun salesman of the decade record pale utterly:eek:

.http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/08/31/the-22-ammo-shortage-mystery-solved.aspx

ww.forbes.com/sites/frankminiter/2015/10/27/remember-the-ammo-shortage-it-has-quietly-fueled-a-manufacturing-revival/#282d29311c13
Thing was; "expensive" brands in the US like Eley was always available and so were all the premimum brands,it was the cheap plinker stuff that was in short supply.Hencewe really didnt have a shortage here of premium European stuff,just of the cheap US brands.
Nor is it helped by the EU doing its bit on restricting by punititive taxataion on non EU produced items.So stuff coming into the EU is being taxed higher at the moment.

As for Millards..Never had any joy in deling with them on anything,ever,since the 1980s.Everything was a problem and never a solution was offered.Dealing with them when they had Winchester was a n utter nightmanre.Am just surprised some of these gunshops or dealerships stay in busisness this long here and in this day and age of internet sales.

Cass

yubabill1 wrote: »

I take it you are not calling me a bull****ter

No. On the practice and the thought that this is a viable method of operating a business.

andI am with you on resisting the practice - I make a point of it - but this is the modern way.

I don't accept that. not the notion the act. I simple will not accept that "standard" of business and will go elsewhere or shop online.

You may have a butcher etc., but most every one where I am has closed, so count yourself one of the lucky few. The big supermarkets are killing them wholesale, as are the likes of BWG killing the small independent shops - very few that are not centra, mace, londis, spar (all BWG franchises).

I understand but most RFDs are not like Tesco, Supervalu, Aldi, etc. Most gun dealers operate in smaller towns or from their homes. There is no Bass Pro, Midway, Brownells here. No franchises or monopoly.

the reason for the price differences is simple. They were raking it in during the boom and now the bubble has burst they refuse to entertain lower profits with repeat business for higher profits for once off sales.

The only dealers i go to are ones that have seen the need to reduce prices to stay competitive and have done so. They will always get my business.

TeaBagMania

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

On the .22 ammo shortage.Its coming back on the shelves again in the US,depending of course if Hillary or Bernie or the Don get into power. If Killary or Bernie get in watch the gun salea markets and ammo literally explode and make O bamas gun salesman of the decade record pale utterly:eek:

Thanks for the reminder, im good on 308 but my 45 ACP and 22lr inventory is lacking. Need to get an order placed before the elections

I take it you guys can’t buy ammo from the north or UK mainland?

I’ve had really good experience with the SK ammo I believe they are German

yubabill1

Let me use a hypothetical scenario to explain where I am coming from with this:

Say I run a prison sweet shop ( if they even have them, but let's go along with it for now) and another guy has another sweet shop in the same prison.
Business is not great for me, but the other guy is closing down next week.
Next week, Should I increase my range of sweets And offer a 10% discount on everything or could I get away with putting a couple of cents extra on the liquorice all sorts that have been lying around for months?

There are only x amount of people in the market for shooting stuff. You, I and the boardsies here can shop around for the best deals, but it's a finite market. Eventually, when enough suppliers and retailers exit, the opportunities for us to get value diminish.

Regulatory Capture involves getting rid of competitors by increased regulation, such as proposed in the eu directive banning distance sales of firearms, ammo, parts.

Cass

I understand what you are saying, i understand the concept and i've no doubt it goes on.

My main point was about RFDs buying small amounts or not at all. Not so much the price although the thread has gone that way.

With regard to the above i'll ask this. What has caused the closing down of the RFDs thus far? Could it have anything to do with internet sales being cheaper, and easier to access. Not just from a "sit on the chair at home" perspective but anything i want is available.

Again i understand it's not possible for an RFD to stock everything i want, you want and everyone else wants. There would be millions of Euro of stock and it could sit for years. My annoyance and theme of the thread is i'm not asking for all the little accessories, etc. I'm talking about ammo. An item that is strictly regulated so cannot be bought online (abroad, ebay, etc). I'm also not talking about all ammo. Just the popular stuff. This, if nothing else, should be the key point of this thread.

I'm not interested in price wars (at the moment), price fixing, competitiveness, monopolies, etc. Just the actual act of getting in relevant and needed stock. Even if a dealer wants to shift on older stuff it can only last for so long before he A) runs out or B)realises no one is darkening his door.

I don't know. Perhaps i'm asking too much. Perhaps i'm expecting a level of service from RFDs tat is simply not in the Irish mentality. I mean i cannot count the amount of times someone has bought something they did not want simply because they were in the shop and the dealer had only that. We seem unable to say "feck off with your muck, and get me what i want".

IRLConor

TeaBagMania wrote: »

I take it you guys can’t buy ammo from the north or UK mainland?

We can. It takes an import permit but they're not too difficult to get. It's not worth doing unless you're getting a decent chunk of ammo. I've bought ammo from the north and my club has imported from the UK.

TeaBagMania wrote: »

I’ve had really good experience with the SK ammo I believe they are German

Yeah, and Millard Brothers were the distributor for them! SK make Lapua's .22 range.

pm.

yubabill1 wrote: »

On the contrary, the modern way in business is Regulatory Capture - create a captive market, which has no choice worth talking about, so they buy what's available, eventually.

Still got a local butcher, fishmonger or greengrocer?

Not a chance... I went to 4 different rfd until I finally got the. 17 federal ammo I need for my rifle, I bought 400 rounds. Anything else would be a complete waste of money and time having to re zero.

People in the shooting community especially the guys with rifles will travel for the correct ammo. If it was for a shotgun then yes ok buy what's available but for a rifle not too many people would buy any round...