ECB 0% Interest Rates - Our National Debt Quandry

FreudianSlippers

keane2097 wrote: »

A real stretch - the road linking our second and third biggest cities is an absolute embarrassment an it's only a 100km distance between them.

If you're going to Dublin great, if you're going anywhere else best of luck

I don't disagree, but it's hardly the biggest infrastructure project in the world is it?

keane2097

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I don't disagree, but it's hardly the biggest infrastructure project in the world is it?

No it seems like it should be a really small one, but my point was in response to your idea that the country's road network is pretty ok, when in reality we don't even have a road we don't have to be borderline ashamed of between the two biggest places in the country that aren't Dublin!

Never mind the roads between everywhere else and everywhere else, you can imagine what those are like by looking at the state of the short distance between Cork and Limerick!

oscarBravo

keane2097 wrote: »

Never mind the roads between everywhere else and everywhere else, you can imagine what those are like by looking at the state of the short distance between Cork and Limerick!

You mean like the N84 from Castlebar to Galway?

Or the N17 (national primary!) from Galway to Sligo?

Or, for that matter, the national primary route from Dublin to Castlebar?

keane2097

I did that drive from Dublin to Castlebar a few weeks ago and it was a drainer.

View

Our transport infrastructure is entirely focused on Dublin. Just look at the road network radiating out from Cork and compare it with that radiating out from Dublin.

Were a business based in either Galway or Limerick to send a cargo for export, it would almost certainly be routed via Dublin rather than Rosslare, due to the poor infrastructure to/from Rosslare which would add to the congestion levels in Dublin. Thus poor infrastructure elsewhere clearly adds to the problems Dublin faces and means we face demands to increase spending on the "poor" infrastructure in Dublin. :-)

Rightwing

keane2097 wrote: »

No it seems like it should be a really small one, but my point was in response to your idea that the country's road network is pretty ok, when in reality we don't even have a road we don't have to be borderline ashamed of between the two biggest places in the country that aren't Dublin!

Never mind the roads between everywhere else and everywhere else, you can imagine what those are like by looking at the state of the short distance between Cork and Limerick!

Correct.

But my earlier point stands, we don't do value for money, part of the Limerick-Cork road is already a motorway, how can this route cost in the region of €1 bln?

Successive Governments have neglected the regions, no question about that, and they wonder why Independents are gaining in popularity. :rolleyes:

LeinsterDub

Ireland in a thead here. Between 600 and 720 million spent on roads (mainly rural) in the last budget. Dublin asked fov between 1.5 and 2.5 bl over 6 years with a roi of 2.1 and it's urban bias. Despite the fact that Dublin infrastructure is self financing. But of course why should Dublin get anything when Bailebeirtduine is waiting for its bypass

Rightwing

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Ireland in a thead here. Between 600 and 720 million spent on roads (mainly rural) in the last budget. Dublin asked fov between 1.5 and 2.5 bl over 6 years with a roi of 2.1 and it's urban bias. Despite the fact that Dublin infrastructure is self financing. But of course why should Dublin get anything when Bailebeirtduine is waiting for its bypass

You did say Ireland, and not Dublin after all. Therein is the message for politicians.

LeinsterDub

View wrote: »

Our transport infrastructure is entirely focused on Dublin. Just look at the road network radiating out from Cork and compare it with that radiating out from Dublin.

Were a business based in either Galway or Limerick to send a cargo for export, it would almost certainly be routed via Dublin rather than Rosslare, due to the poor infrastructure to/from Rosslare which would add to the congestion levels in Dublin. Thus poor infrastructure elsewhere clearly adds to the problems Dublin faces and means we face demands to increase spending on the "poor" infrastructure in Dublin. :-)

What route would you suggest from Limerick or Galway to Rosslare? The most sensible making the n11 entirely motorway is basically happening and still when it's done you'd be going out of your way from Galway and most likely Limerick to get to Rosslare

LeinsterDub

Rightwing wrote: »

You did say Ireland, and not Dublin after all. Therein is the message for politicians.

The point is all Dublin suffers and so does Ireland as a whole while we pander to bypasses that aren't required. Dublin has become one of the most congested cites in the world recently and a bypass of Tullow isn't going to resolve the issue

Rightwing

LeinsterDub wrote: »

The point is all Dublin suffers and so does Ireland as a whole while we pander to bypasses that aren't required. Dublin has become one of the most congested cites in the world recently and a bypass of Tullow isn't going to resolve the issue

Correct. But there's a balance required.

Dublin's problem is poor planning. Councils have a lot to answer for, if we get a week's sunshine in the summer, the tar will be up all over the country. :rolleyes:
Now, there's dangerous potholes around every bend.

LeinsterDub

Rightwing wrote: »

Correct. But there's a balance required.

Dublin's problem is poor planning. Councils have a lot to answer for, if we get a week's sunshine in the summer, the tar will be up all over the country. :rolleyes:
Now, there's dangerous potholes around every bend.

Poor planning? What poor planing? Do you mean one off housing in the county? How have councils anything to answer for? DU and MN where both killed by central government. I agree agree balance is required. So Dublin will take it's one third of that 800 Million per year and build ourself a metro or maybe we should take our one third of the tax base and build ourselves a hyperloop

Rightwing

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Poor planning? What poor planing? Do you mean one off housing in the county? How have councils anything to answer for? DU and MN where both killed by central government. I agree agree balance is required. So Dublin will take it's one third of that 800 Million per year and build ourself a metro.

Good planning = higher skyline, in central area.

Poor planning = giving the go ahead to build massive housing estates miles out with no services.

Guess which one Dublin picked?

LeinsterDub

Rightwing wrote: »

Good planning = higher skyline, in central area.

Poor planning = giving the go ahead to build massive housing estates miles out with no services.

Guess which one Dublin picked?

And? The same finger can be pointed at rural one off housing and building in flood planes.
Guess which one rural folk picked?

Rightwing

LeinsterDub wrote: »

And? The same finger can be pointed at rural one off housing and building in flood planes.
Guess which one rural folk picked?

Now you have got the gist of what constitutes poor planning.

LeinsterDub

Rightwing wrote: »

Now you have got the gist of what constitutes poor planning.

Yet that's not an issue when Bailebeirtduine gets its bypass but every penny for Dublin is ill-gotten.

At a guess the GDA provides half the economic output of the county and has one third of the residents so we'll take between 15% and 25%of the infrastructure tax take. That's half our earnings. Seems fair to me

Rightwing

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Yet that's not an issue when Bailebeirtduine gets its bypass but every penny for Dublin is ill-gotten.

At a guess the GDA provides half the economic output of the county and has one third of the residents so we'll take between 15% and 25%of the infrastructure tax take. That's half our earnings. Seems fair to me

But you see it is. You have to take off your county jersey and think rationally.

Guesses are irrelevant. I prefer to deal with statistics and facts. The main fact being, it's a good job Europe doesn't share your sentiment or all of Ireland would be cut adrift long ago.

LeinsterDub

You want to talk fairness? What percentage of money generated by the Dublin economy do you think it's to fair ring fence for the people of Dublin so that a percentage of the tax they pay goes towards making there life easier?

LeinsterDub

Rightwing wrote: »

But you see it is. You have to take off your county jersey and think rationally.

Guesses are irrelevant. I prefer to deal with statistics and facts. The main fact being, it's a good job Europe doesn't share your sentiment or all of Ireland would be cut adrift long ago.

I don't have a county jersey on. I've a 2 hours commute by bus to work by bus. It's 30 minutes by bike. That's public transport in Dublin. Deal with statistics so. How much of the national transport budget as a percentage do you think Dublin is entitled to? No one has discussed cutting rural Ireland off in fact I've suggested that rural Ireland get 75% of the budget.

Thinking rationally the project with a 2.1 roi would of been signed at the drop of a hat

Rightwing

LeinsterDub wrote: »

You want to talk fairness? What percentage of money generated by the Dublin economy do you think it's fair ring fence for the people of Dublin so that a percentage of the tax they pay goes towards making there life easier?

That's essentially nonsense talk, because if country roads are too poor, rural people won't be able to get to Dublin and the economy will suffer greatly. As the saying goes 'No man is an island'. I do have sympathy for the average punter living say 10 miles out in west Dublin though.

Like our health system, throwing money into Dublin is effectively throwing good money after bad. They need to realise their elementary errors. Build upwards, not outwards. I ought to charge Dublin Council for my advice.

LeinsterDub

Rightwing wrote: »

That's essentially nonsense talk, because if country roads are too poor, rural people won't be able to get to Dublin and the economy will suffer greatly. As the saying goes 'No man is an island'. I do have sympathy for the average punter living say 10 miles out in west Dublin though.

Like our health system, throwing money into Dublin is effectively throwing good money after bad. They need to realise their elementary errors. Build upwards, not outwards. I ought to charge Dublin Council for my advice.

I'll take that as 0 so and all your talk of fairness is shown for what it is. Village pump nonsense. Luas for gort. Dublin for traffic!

LeinsterDub

Rightwing wrote: »

Like our health system, throwing money into Dublin is effectively throwing good money after bad. They need to realise their elementary errors. Build upwards, not outwards. I ought to charge Dublin Council for my advice.

Rural people living in flood planes need to realise their elementary errors and buy boats

Rightwing

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I'll take that as 0 so and all your talk of fairness is shown for what it is. Village pump nonsense. Luas for gort. Dublin for traffic!

I'm more in favour of cutting debt, taxes and services. I don't believe in a motorway for the likes of Kerry for instance. The McCreevy line of 'spend because we have it' doesn't appeal to me.

LeinsterDub

Rightwing wrote: »

I'm more in favour of cutting debt, taxes and services. I don't believe in a motorway for the likes of Kerry for instance. The McCreevy line of 'spend because we have it' doesn't appeal to me.

ROI of 2.1. Interest rates at historic lows. Essentially building MN was free money

Rightwing

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Rural people living in flood planes need to realise their elementary errors and buy boats

I can agree with you here, people have to front up to poor decision making. No one asked them to buy a house on a flood zone, and similarly no one asked a punter to buy a house 15 miles outside Dublin city centre. We need to take responsibility for poor decision making.

LeinsterDub

Rightwing wrote: »

I can agree with you here, people have to front up to poor decision making. No one asked them to buy a house on a flood zone, and similarly no one asked a punter to buy a house 15 miles outside Dublin city centre. We need to take responsibility for poor decision making.

I live less than 8 km from the city centre. My house is 80 years old. Getting around Dublin is a nightmare. Maybe my house is too new. Maybe to keep you happy I should live on Baggot St in a Georgian House? People living 15 miles are buying the only house they can afford. But let's punish them because they aren't rich enough to live in the areas of Dublin you decide are acceptable

I could also make the argument that those who live in a rat run town down the country deserve what they get and should just put up with it. Sure if they where rich enough that could buy a nice one off house out of town and avoid the traffic.

You've yet to put forward a coherent argument as to why Dublin shouldn't get a fair share of infrastructure money.

oscarBravo

oscarBravo wrote: »

But worst of all is trying to get from one part of the country to another if one of those parts isn't Dublin.

Absolutely. Cork to Limerick being a particularly glaring example.

BoatMad

as a rural person , that then lived in dublin for 25 years and is now 150 km from the GPO in a rural area, I can see both sides.

for business, especially tech and pharma the big issue is availability of a pool of employees, its very very difficult to get these type of staff outside the GDA, there simply isn't a big enough conurbation

That means increasing Dublin will suck up all the knowledge economy etc . No more then London does

The difference is that London over the years has poured billions onto its commuter service whereas Dublin has done virtually nothing, The state actually has never undertaken a serious heavy rail project since its foundation

DART unground needs to be built, additional roads in the capital are badly needed. you only have to drive into and out of Dublin to see the huge difference in congestion levels on the motorways

For a few years Dublin now needs a huge investment in infrastructure , the country needs some investment in selected infrastructure ( the M20 comes to mind)

But Dublin needs more LUAS, More DART, metro north and heavy rail airport, DART undergrouns, 4 tracking approaches to Connolly , maynooth electrification , the eastern Bypass to relieve M50 , a potential outer ring motorway etc

other wise the place will be hell on earth in 10 years , especially if we have a few years of growth now.

We should be digging up the whole place


it should not be a zero sum game, like, one project for Dublin, one for the country. Dublin has fallen way way behind

Rightwing

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I live less than 8 km from the city centre. My house is 80 years old. Getting around Dublin is a nightmare. Maybe my house is too new. Maybe to keep you happy I should live on Baggot St in a Georgian House? People living 15 miles are buying the only house they can afford. But let's punish them because they aren't rich enough to live in the areas of Dublin you decide are acceptable

I could also make the argument that those who live in a rat run town down the country deserve what they get and should just put up with it. Sure if they where rich enough that could buy a nice one off house out of town and avoid the traffic.

You've yet to put forward a coherent argument as to why Dublin shouldn't get a fair share of infrastructure money.

But indeed you did make that very argument when laughing at the mugs who bought houses in flood zones and should now 'buy boats'. At least I'm consistent on the matter.

LeinsterDub

Rightwing wrote: »

But indeed you did make that very argument when laughing at the mugs who bought houses in flood zones and should now 'buy boats'. At least I'm consistent on the matter.

I wasn't laughing at them I was simply applying your logic of blaming /abandoning those who live further for the city to those who bought in the flood plane

What exactly is your position? First it was fairness until I pointed out that goes both ways. Then it was blaming the victims of poor planning. Now it's what?

Pretend your in second class. Dublin deserves less than its fair share of the infrastructure budget because...

BoatMad

Dublin deserves less than its fair share of the infrastructure budget because...

thats easy

sure miss, it sided with the english, its full of west brit manchester united supporters , it talks funny and its really foreign like.

oscarBravo

LeinsterDub wrote: »

What route would you suggest from Limerick or Galway to Rosslare? The most sensible making the n11 entirely motorway is basically happening and still when it's done you'd be going out of your way from Galway and most likely Limerick to get to Rosslare

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Dublin has become one of the most congested cites in the world recently and...

...the logical solution is to force Limerick-to-Rosslare traffic onto the M50. Brilliant.

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Rural people living in flood planes need to realise their elementary errors and buy boats

And when the Liffey or the Tolka bursts its banks...?

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Dublin deserves less than its fair share of the infrastructure budget because...

...the concept of a "fair share" is applying primary school playground logic to infrastructural problems.

BoatMad

given rosslare is not a particular major port , I see no point to the discussion , its location was primarily a function of 19th century railway companies business logic

LeinsterDub

oscarBravo wrote: »

...the logical solution is to force Limerick-to-Rosslare traffic onto the M50. Brilliant.

And when the Liffey or the Tolka bursts its banks...?

...the concept of a "fair share" is applying primary school playground logic to infrastructural problems.

What is the alternative route you would suggest?

When the Liffey and the Tolka burst their banks remedial works where put in place what of it?

Fine if fair share is too primary school for you how much as a percentage is Dublin entitled too?

Rightwing

LeinsterDub wrote: »

What is the alternative route you would suggest?

When the Liffey and the Tolka burst their banks remedial works where put in place what of it?

Fine if fair share is too primary school for you how much as a percentage is Dublin entitled too?

We stressed to you already this is idiotic talk. Only a simpleton would engage in such a conversation. How much is Tralee entitled to? How much is Rosslare entitled to? Get it?

Resources must be based on perceived needs. If a country road in Donegal is endangering lives, then this gets priority in my opinion over trying to eliminate an extra 10 mins of someone's commute elsewhere.
We also need to look at hospitals. If Government policy is to create 5 or 6 super hospitals, then the State has an obligation to ensure that a patient in an ambulance can get from Westport to Galway without being stuck behind 7 tractors en route.

LeinsterDub

Rightwing wrote: »

Resources must be based on perceived needs. If a country road in Donegal is endangering lives, then this gets priority in my opinion over trying to eliminate an extra 10 mins of someone's commute elsewhere.

Resources should be based on actual needs not perceived and we should look to get the most value for our money. Sure we can convert every byway to motorway standard but it will only benefit a handful of people. Much as living in Dublin means that traffic is a part of my way of life. Living in the countryside mean that being stuck behind tractors is part of your way of live.

I've acknowledged that the countryside and non Dublin towns required investment you seem to think Dublin should wait till every issue ever outside Dublin should be fixed first before Dublin can look to improve its infrastructure.

You said it's simplistic that those who generate the tax should be entitled to some benefit from it but isn't that the entire point if taxes we all benefit from it. The reason I suggested Dublin should get some of the tax it generates ring-fenced is because anti Dublin bias such as yours is ensuring that projects with roi of 2.1 are being mothballed while West on track gets the nod

oscarBravo

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Sure we can convert every byway to motorway standard...

Yes. That's what we want. Not another penny spent inside the M50 until there's a motorway from Clonbur to Cornamona.

:rolleyes:

It would be really nice to move this conversation beyond primary school level, but when that's the sort of argument we constantly have to deal with, it becomes clear that it's not going to happen.

LeinsterDub

oscarBravo wrote: »

Yes. That's what we want. Not another penny spent inside the M50 until there's a motorway from Clonbur to Cornamona.

:rolleyes:

It would be really nice to move this conversation beyond primary school level, but when that's the sort of argument we constantly have to deal with, it becomes clear that it's not going to happen.

You failed to reckonise that was a hyperbolic argument questioning Rightwing's position that we must make every road safe and tractor passable before we can look at Dublin

My point was what projects inside the m50 does Rightwing deam worthy? Judging by their posts Rightwing thinks none. I've asked them several times and all they've done is resort to petty name calling.

Rightwing

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Resources should be based on actual needs not perceived and we should look to get the most value for our money. Sure we can convert every byway to motorway standard but it will only benefit a handful of people. Much as living in Dublin means that traffic is a part of my way of life. Living in the countryside mean that being stuck behind tractors is part of your way of live.

I've acknowledged that the countryside and non Dublin towns required investment you seem to think Dublin should wait till every issue ever outside Dublin should be fixed first before Dublin can look to improve its infrastructure.

You said it's simplistic that those who generate the tax should be entitled to some benefit from it but isn't that the entire point if taxes we all benefit from it. The reason I suggested Dublin should get some of the tax it generates ring-fenced is because anti Dublin bias such as yours is ensuring that projects with roi of 2.1 are being mothballed while West on track gets the nod

Rubbish.

If the EU adopted that approach, Irl would be a 3rd world country, as it wasn't contributing anything to the cause. Decades of wealth transfer has enabled Ireland become attractive. By building up infrastructure in places like Galway has enabled Galway become attractive. I was there recently and there is serious traffic problems there.

Contrary to what you think there isn't an endless pot of gold out there. The EC will decide what projects gets the green light, and just as well because Irish Government have for decades neglected 25 counties.

Well if this thread isn't a microcosm of the issues that affect the long term planning in this country I don't know what is!

marno21

This country is simply going to grind to a halt soon. There are currently 4 major transport projects underway at the minute:

* Luas BXD line (aka Luas Cross City)
* M17/M18 Gort to Tuam
* M11 Gorey to Enniscorthy
* N25 New Ross BP

There's about 20 projects, both road & rail I could name, that are higher on the list of important projects than those 4, and what's worse is the only project going to construction in the next 2 years is the M7 J9-J11 widening project, which is a fairly loose definition of the word 'major'.

Stephen Crabb

Stephen Crabb, vying to be Prime Minster of the UK understands...

Stephen Crabb wrote:

It was very different from the policy espoused by Labour and the practice of Labour borrowing while they were in Government. You’ll remember they borrowed enormous sums of money, not for investing. What we are saying is look, we are at a turning point in our economy, if we are going to turn this enormous challenge of Brexit to our advantage, then I think taking advantage of the fact that the cost of borrowing is at historically low levels – those are the kind of bold choices I think a new Prime Minister ought to make."

He's talking about the UK but it actually applies to us even more!