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1400 now average house rental price per month in Dublin

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    #32
    Hollister11
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Hollister11


    If the government set a rental income rate of say 20% and that's it, that would go a long way to keep landlords in the market.

    But taxing them at 50%+ is disgusting.


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    #33
    SarahMollie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,843 ✭✭✭SarahMollie


    MarkAnthony wrote: »
    Buying it and selling it on.

    Ireland is maninly one man accidental landlords and paddy property investors who's idea of reseach is asking in this forum wether buying a 1 bed apartment in Tallaght is a good idea with out considering any other investment.

    LOL - pretty sure I've seen that exact thread about 5 times this year already.

    "so... i don't know anything about property and have done precisely ZERO research, but please all comment to validate my assumption that if I buy X apartment, it will basically print money for me."


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    #34
    MarkAnthony
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭MarkAnthony


    Hollister11 wrote: »
    If the government set a rental income rate of say 20% and that's it, that would go a long way to keep landlords in the market.

    But taxing them at 50%+ is disgusting.

    Income tax is income tax, that's fair enough. Like any business there should be 100% relief on the mortgage but that's not a huge issue tbh. If the government was serious about doing anything they could do it tomorrow: Give tenants tax reflief on rental payments, problem solved, over night.

    Someone has to pay to keep the country's lights on though, you won't be able to afford your own though :pac:


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    #35
    Hollister11
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Hollister11


    MarkAnthony wrote: »
    Income tax is income tax, that's fair enough. Like any business there should be 100% relief on the mortgage but that's not a huge issue tbh. If the government was serious about doing anything they could do it tomorrow: Give tenants tax reflief on rental payments, problem solved, over night.

    Someone has to pay to keep the country's lights on though, you won't be able to afford your own though :pac:

    Why give tenants relief ? Give the landlords relief. It may be income tax, but if the government want to keep the rental sector going, they really should incentives them to stay.


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    #36
    SarahMollie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,843 ✭✭✭SarahMollie


    Hollister11 wrote: »
    Why give tenants relief ? Give the landlords relief. It may be income tax, but if the government want to keep the rental sector going, they really should incentives them to stay.

    Both sides actually used to get relief.

    In agreement with Hollister, renters are not going to go away, but Landlords can just sell up, effectively making the rental sector shrink, which is a bigger immediate concern, so I'd agree that any relief should probably be targeted in that direction.

    Again, we probably need a targeted mixture of measure to get things moving. If the only thing we do is make it more attractive for landlords, then that puts pressure on people trying to buy a house as their own primary residence also, as they'll be competing against Landlords again.

    Without increased supply, a stimulus to any group can have negative knock on effects.


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    #37
    Eugene Norman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    MarkAnthony wrote: »
    Income tax is income tax, that's fair enough. Like any business there should be 100% relief on the mortgage but that's not a huge issue tbh. If the government was serious about doing anything they could do it tomorrow: Give tenants tax reflief on rental payments, problem solved, over night.

    Someone has to pay to keep the country's lights on though, you won't be able to afford your own though :pac:

    Rental relief on payments will just increase the top line rental price.


    To solve this issue long term - build. To solve it now, say you are going to build 100,000 houses in the next few years.


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    #38
    Eugene Norman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    Hollister11 wrote: »
    Why give tenants relief ? Give the landlords relief. It may be income tax, but if the government want to keep the rental sector going, they really should incentives them to stay.

    There isnt really any inidcation that the landlords are fleeing. Thats not the reason. In fact there are still a lot of cash investors, many would be landlords.

    Its the lack of housing in total. And there is no way that landlords should get any difference in their income from anybody else.


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    #39
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,852 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    its quite brilliant here, they wont put in a decent transport system, that would allow people to feasibly buy further out and commute in and have it as an option where you arent wasting hours a day commuting. They wont go anywhere even near "high rise" even in the docklands, where many of the buildings going up are 6 floors, beside tara street a 22 storey tower has been permitted, which is fine, but 6 floors in the docklands overlooking water!

    They wont address construction costs... Same old Ireland, same old s**t. Lessons learned LOL, good one!


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    #40
    SarahMollie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,843 ✭✭✭SarahMollie


    Eugene Norman wrote: »
    There isnt really any inidcation that the landlords are fleeing. Thats not the reason. In fact there are still a lot of cash investors, many would be landlords.

    Its the lack of housing in total. And there is no way that landlords should get any difference in their income from anybody else.

    Actually if you read the LL forums on here and other places seems lots are getting out. I bought my place from a BTL investor who was getting out.

    Rental income is different than PAYE income. A person has to invest a significant amount of their own capital and/or borrow heavily in order to earn that income.

    I think some relief is in order, but supply is the factor thats really crippling everything.


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    #41
    SarahMollie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,843 ✭✭✭SarahMollie


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    its quite brilliant here, they wont put in a decent transport system, that would allow people to feasibly buy further out and commute in and have it as an option where you arent wasting hours a day commuting. They wont go anywhere even near "high rise" even in the docklands, where many of the buildings going up are 6 floors, beside tara street a 22 storey tower has been permitted, which is fine, but 6 floors in the docklands overlooking water!

    They wont address construction costs... Same old Ireland, same old s**t. Lessons learned LOL, good one!

    Actually a decent transport system should be paired wtih people living closer to the city center. We need high density - we need to go upwards not outwards!

    Lost of cities have beautifully developed high rise developments on their waterfronts. I think it would be an improvement.


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    #42
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,852 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    Lost of cities have beautifully developed high rise developments on their waterfronts. I think it would be an improvement.
    we need a decent transport system and I agree about the waterfront development, what has been built in the docklands and what is being permitted is an architectural disgrace and unsustainable development...


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    #43
    SarahMollie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,843 ✭✭✭SarahMollie


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    we need a decent transport system and I agree about the waterfront development, what has been built in the docklands and what is being permitted is an architectural disgrace and unsustainable development...

    Exactly.

    If we continue to sprawl, the the costs of building a metro for example only increases as it has to go further and further out. If more people lived a proper city existance, lived in high rise apartments, and didnt need to own a car to get around, then a metro becomes more and more viable.

    6/7 story buildings are doing no one any favors. They should be about 20 IMO.


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    #44
    SarahMollie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,843 ✭✭✭SarahMollie


    qrx wrote: »
    There must be a lot of amateur landlords out there raking in the cash. Take your average schmuck landlord who is still on a tracker mortgage and not paying any tax on their earnings. If I was to rent out my house I'd see a 136% increase on rent versus mortgage.

    The property bubble is still there and still inflating, it's just shifted to the rental market.

    Why would they not be paying tax? Guarantee you they are. Many at 51%

    Also, they may have trackers, but the sums borrowed in the boom years still command significant repayments.


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    #45
    April 73
    Registered Users Posts: 846 ✭✭✭April 73


    Construction in Dublin shut down for five years so we're behind on the number of dwellings needed. We have an expanding population with lots of young people who want to rent. Landlord costs have been pushed up by the government over the last number of years contributing to increases in rent. The rent freeze pushed extra increases through in the last quarter of 2015. The central bank rules mean it will take longer for people to save deposits in order to buy & exit the rental market.

    It's a pressure cooker environment & the steam is being released in the rental market & driving prices higher. With all of those factors it's no wonder rents are up.

    For every action there's always a reaction. Sometimes unintended & since this is Ireland, usually not anticipated.


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    #46
    qrx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 642 ✭✭✭qrx


    SarahMollie wrote: »
    Why would they not be paying tax? Guarantee you they are. Many at 51%

    Also, they may have trackers, but the sums borrowed in the boom years still command significant repayments.

    Partly because they can get away with it, very easily and because it would be giving money "to the man" and partly pure ignorance. And do you think many of them have informed the banks of the change in circumstances and switched to a buy to let mortgage or do you think most of them have played ignorant in order to keep their nice tracker rates?


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    #47
    SarahMollie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,843 ✭✭✭SarahMollie


    qrx wrote: »
    Partly because they can get away with it, very easily and because it would be giving money "to the man" and partly pure ignorance. And do you think many of them have informed the banks of the change in circumstances and switched to a buy to let mortgage or do you think most of them have played ignorant in order to keep their nice tracker rates?

    If we have one competent department in this whole country, its the Revenue.

    Whether or not people choose to inform their lenders is another story (I'm sure they don't) but most people know its fairly foolhardy to try to get one over on the Revenue.


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    #48
    MarkAnthony
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭MarkAnthony


    Giving the relief to tenants will become a self regualting tax collection mechanism. The Landlords that are currently in Cavan, err doging tax will be left with the dregs of tenants as the first question will be, can I have your PPS number to register the teanancy please.

    Yes rents would go up, absolutely. Thats the incentive side for landlords, the trick is balancing it. We've tried tax incentives for Landlords, it didn't work and neither should it. It should be a business like any other with income tax payments. Now I'm all for making it easier for landlords to incorporate.

    Tax relief on the purchase of certain properties was a terrible idea, it's ghettoised some tenents into apartment blocks that the owners where never going to live in. When buying a property as an investment LLs should not have an advantage over an owner occupier. Furthermore they should be selecting a property on the basis of someone actually wanting to live in it rather than it beinging somewhere you can't swing a cat let alone put a dog.


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    #49
    mickoneill31
    Registered Users Posts: 855 ✭✭✭mickoneill31


    qrx wrote: »
    Partly because they can get away with it, very easily and because it would be giving money "to the man" and partly pure ignorance. And do you think many of them have informed the banks of the change in circumstances and switched to a buy to let mortgage or do you think most of them have played ignorant in order to keep their nice tracker rates?

    Do you have any statistics or is this just the usual pie in the sky waffling you get a lot of in Ireland?


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    #50
    brownej
    Registered Users Posts: 886 ✭✭✭brownej


    SarahMollie wrote: »
    Exactly.

    If we continue to sprawl, the the costs of building a metro for example only increases as it has to go further and further out. If more people lived a proper city existance, lived in high rise apartments, and didnt need to own a car to get around, then a metro becomes more and more viable.

    6/7 story buildings are doing no one any favors. They should be about 20 IMO.

    6/7 story buildings are not the problem. They should be the solution.
    Look at Paris. It is one of the most densely populated cities in the world and it doesn't have huge amounts of residential high rise. It achieves its density by having 6 and 7 story buildings everywhere! None of this Semi D stuff.
    Munich is similar. Lots and lots of medium rise everywhere.
    Develoments like the area around the beacon hospital in Sandyford should be the norm and should be inside the canals.


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    #51
    MarkAnthony
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭MarkAnthony


    To be fair, although I agree completely on the High rise front and the lack of need, Paris is a rental disaster.


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    #52
    RoyalMarine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,824 ✭✭✭RoyalMarine


    Rent increases are making it harder and harder to save a stupidly high deposit for a mortgage.. And worse, buying in Dublin or close to Dublin is too expensive.

    I wouldn't even mind buying outside, but traffic and public transport are not getting any better.

    I'm in a no win scenario with zero options but to keep paying ever increasing rent rates.


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    #53
    brownej
    Registered Users Posts: 886 ✭✭✭brownej


    MarkAnthony wrote: »
    To be fair, although I agree completely on the High rise front and the lack of need, Paris is a rental disaster.

    Paris is a disaster due to demand rather than density. Dublin doesn't have an excuse.

    There are significant numbers of two story dwellings within a stones throw of the liffey (especially on the north side). Putting 20/30 story glass towers next to them is not really an answer.


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    #54
    MarkAnthony
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭MarkAnthony


    There are still bargains to be had in Dublin if people are willing to look in less desirbale areas. I'm not talking about some where you'd be burgaled to death within the first five minutes but stupidity over certain owrking class areas really needs to change. Now I realise it would be a short term fix for a few at best but it would help.

    I do agree on the depoisit side, I think many believe the LTI is enough to keep the market in check. That said, something had to be done and until supply increases some segments have to be excluded. Sucks, but that's the way it is at the moment.


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    #55
    MarkAnthony
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭MarkAnthony


    brownej wrote: »
    Paris is a disaster due to demand rather than density. Dublin doesn't have an excuse.

    There are significant numbers of two story dwellings within a stones throw of the liffey (especially on the north side). Putting 20/30 story glass towers next to them is not really an answer.

    That doesn't really make a huge amount of sense. We're being told that density is the solution (I realise it isn't but others...). What's different about a 100 stories in Paris than Dublin?

    Edit: Genuine question sorry wasn't meant to sound dismissive.


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    #56
    brownej
    Registered Users Posts: 886 ✭✭✭brownej


    MarkAnthony wrote: »
    That doesn't really make a huge amount of sense. We're being told that density is the solution (I realise it isn't but others...). What's different about a 100 stories in Paris than Dublin?

    Edit: Genuine question sorry wasn't meant to sound dismissive.

    What I mean is that Paris is probably at a stage where 6/7story development is at its limit and they need to go up to get more capacity.

    Dublin is at a stage where 2 story dwellings are killing the city and also needs to go up. Going up to highrise is very expensive and will not lead to affordable housing but will just lead to super high rent premium developments in the city. A sustainable approach of 6/7 story quality appartment buildings will increase the population density enormously and lead to a more sustainable/affordable development model.
    Tophy glass towers next to 2 story houses in the inner city is only going to lead to more problems.

    If you look at places like new york city which we all equate with sky scrapers, it actually has a lower population density than Paris as they are mostly office blocks and huge numbers of people don't actually live in Manhatten.
    Places like Hong Kong have really high population densities because space has forced going upwards in really high towers.
    Dublin doesn't have a space issue so medium rises would be fine.


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    #57
    alias no.9
    Registered Users Posts: 6,310 ✭✭✭alias no.9


    Eugene Norman wrote: »
    There isnt really any inidcation that the landlords are fleeing. Thats not the reason. In fact there are still a lot of cash investors, many would be landlords.

    Its the lack of housing in total. And there is no way that landlords should get any difference in their income from anybody else.

    It'd take a pretty dim investors to buy a BTL for cash when the interest payments (or at least 75% of the interest payments) are tax deductible.


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    #58
    athtrasna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,420 ✭✭✭✭athtrasna


    Mod note

    This is already a thread discussing developing upwards rather than outwards in Dublin. If you want to continue that discussion please do so on the appropriate thread http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057571425

    Thanks


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