Inconsistent Road signage in Ireland

chewed

I was driving back from the west on Saturday and ended up some back roads. I could not get over all of the inconsistencies in all of the road signs I encountered on my trip! This seems to be endemic across the country.

Are there not standard road sign templates that each of the councils should be using? In some cases it looks like it's just pure laziness or ineptness on the part of the council. It's as if they redesign each sign as required. E.g. Different fonts, spacing, different shades of yellow on warning signs, etc.

Also, is it a policy of all councils to have the signs placed incorrectly on the poles and at an angle? My biggest bugbear is when they erect a new sign and then leave the pole protruding at the top! Why do they do this?

Here's some examples that will look familiar

L1011

The red circle no entry / no turn / compulsary move signs are old and are being phased out. The Yield signs with "right of way" on them are the same, and I'd guess the third Yield sign in is on private land as its completely non standard. The sizing on the junction signs is deliberate.

As goes angles, most of that is vandalism.

chewed

L1011 wrote: »

The red circle no entry / no turn / compulsary move signs are old and are being phased out. The Yield signs with "right of way" on them are the same, and I'd guess the third Yield sign in is on private land as its completely non standard. The sizing on the junction signs is deliberate.

As goes angles, most of that is vandalism.

Why are these deliberate? Also, why in some of these signs are the main road centred on the sign and on others they're positioned to the left?

I understand that the No Entry signs are being phased out, but they're still being used for Bus / Luas only signage.

BabySlam

What bugs me is signs that are on the road verge but you cannot see them if a lorry/bus is in the inside lane. Or stop signs so low that you cannot see if the road is clear.

chewed

Also, that 3rd YIELD sign is on a public road (Blanchardstown)!

Carawaystick

chewed wrote: »

Why are these deliberate?

Because you might have noticed that some roads are bigger than others, and the signs convey this information.

Thoie

chewed wrote: »

Why are these deliberate? Also, why in some of these signs are the main road centred on the sign and on others they're positioned to the left?

I understand that the No Entry signs are being phased out, but they're still being used for Bus / Luas only signage.

Your 3rd and 4th junction signs are the easiest to compare. In the 3rd there is a junction with a road of equal importance coming up on the right. In the 4th, a road of lesser importance is coming up on the right.

chewed

Thoie wrote: »

Your 3rd and 4th junction signs are the easiest to compare. In the 3rd there is a junction with a road of equal importance coming up on the right. In the 4th, a road of lesser importance is coming up on the right.

Fair enough! That makes sense, but still doesn't explain why the position of the main road is not consistent on all signs.

Carawaystick

chewed wrote: »

Fair enough! That makes sense, but still doesn't explain why the position of the main road is not consistent on all signs.

Which is the main road on the third sign? They look of equal width to me.

chewed

Carawaystick wrote: »

Which is the main road on the third sign? They look of equal width to me.

When I say "Main Road" I'm talking about the road you're on. i.e. the black line that's vertical.

joujoujou

chewed wrote: »

[...]
Are there not standard road sign templates that each of the councils should be using? In some cases it looks like it's just pure laziness or ineptness on the part of the council. It's as if they redesign each sign as required. E.g. Different fonts, spacing, different shades of yellow on warning signs, etc.

[...]

I'd prefer to see them repairing potholes rather than redesigning/replacing hundreds of signs only because some of them are being slightly different than the others.

chewed

joujoujou wrote: »

I'd prefer to see them repairing potholes rather than redesigning/replacing hundreds of signs only because some of them are being slightly different than the others.

I'm not suggesting that they replace signs. My question is, should all the sign manufacturers and/or councils not have a standard template for each sign?

joujoujou

It's Ireland. So "sure be grand" attitude overrides all the norms/templates.

It's simply evolution that you're observing there, some of those signs are over 20 years old and the"standard" design has been tweaked over time.
You could go to most countries around the world and see a similar trend, but it must be said that Ireland is looser than most when it comes to maintaining a standard template.
I've seen some where it appears that the council copied the UK/EU standard and tweaked it to make it "Irish".

chewed

Deleted User wrote: »

It's simply evolution that you're observing there, some of those signs are over 20 years old and the"standard" design has been tweaked over time.
You could go to most countries around the world and see a similar trend, but it must be said that Ireland is looser than most when it comes to maintaining a standard template.
I've seen some where it appears that the council copied the UK/EU standard and tweaked it to make it "Irish".

How are these evolving? Especially the "no right turn" signs. The 1st "no right turn" sign was erected around 2011 (Dunsink lane beside Travel Lodge) and bears no resemblance to the other styles used around.
The Speed limit signs shouldn't be evolving as they were introduced in 2005.

Sam Russell

The first and third 'No Right Turn' signs have the red stroke going the wrong way.

'No entry' signs have been superceded with a red disc with a white bar in the centre as used in France UK and other countries in the EU.

http://www.labelsource.co.uk/content/images/product/zoom/54374902-478e-4886-bc8c-5e0f899f22c0.jpg

But it is a valid criticism that is not just applicable to road signs - it applies also to road markings. Every county appears to have its own interpretation of how white paint must be applied to the road. In Galway they did a solo run with double red lines as an advance on yellow lines. Not sure what they were meant to mean. They were told to remove them.

We do need a standard set of instruction for county engineers.

Sam Russell

Sam Russell wrote: »

The first and third 'No Right Turn' signs have the red stroke going the wrong way.

'No entry' signs have been superceded with a red disc with a white bar in the centre as used in France UK and other countries in the EU.

http://www.labelsource.co.uk/content/images/product/zoom/54374902-478e-4886-bc8c-5e0f899f22c0.jpg

But it is a valid criticism that is not just applicable to road signs - it applies also to road markings. Every county appears to have its own interpretation of how white paint must be applied to the road. In Galway they did a solo run with double red lines as an advance on yellow lines. Not sure what they were meant to mean. They were told to remove them.

We do need a standard set of instruction for county engineers.

In London double red lines mean "don't park REALLY don't even think of stopping!"
https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/red-routes/rules-of-red-routes/red-lines-and-no-stopping

icdg

There is a rule book! The Traffic Signs Manual 2010 contains the rules as to how road signage should be applied in this country. It's on the DTTAS website for all to read. It's extremely detailed and shouldn't leave room for "interpretation". But unfortunately councils have a habit of following it loosely or ignoring it entirely.

chewed

icdg wrote: »

There is a rule book! The Traffic Signs Manual 2010 contains the rules as to how road signage should be applied in this country. It's on the DTTAS website for all to read. It's extremely detailed and shouldn't leave room for "interpretation". But unfortunately councils have a habit of following it loosely or ignoring it entirely.

But, how does this still happen? Surely when a new sign is required, they have to get a sign from a preferred sign maker? e.g. Rennicks. And that sign maker should be following the rulebook.

Or, can they go to any company to get signs manufactured?

Alun

chewed wrote: »

But, how does this still happen? Surely when a new sign is required, they have to get a sign from a preferred sign maker? e.g. Rennicks. And that sign maker should be following the rulebook.

That's what I thought too.

Near me, there are two 50km/h signs on opposite sides of the road, one erected after the other had been damaged, and they're different sizes and have different fonts. There's probably less than a year between them being erected, so it's not a historical thing.

chewed

Alun wrote: »

That's what I thought too.

Near me, there are two 50km/h signs on opposite sides of the road, one erected after the other had been damaged, and they're different sizes and have different fonts. There's probably less than a year between them being erected, so it's not a historical thing.

I wonder is the name of the company on the back of the new (incorrect) sign? Sometimes you see a sticker on the back. It would be interesting to contact them, or the council, to ask why they're not following the rule book!

mahoganygas

There used to be a MPH sign in Howth a couple of years ago.
Not sure if it's still there.

Alun

chewed wrote: »

I wonder is the name of the company on the back of the new (incorrect) sign? Sometimes you see a sticker on the back. It would be interesting to contact them, or the council, to ask why they're not following the rule book!

Unfortunately it's not in a place where you can safely stop to get out and take a look, but it would be interesting to know, certainly.

Carawaystick

A manufacturer only needs to follow the contract to manufacture the signs they've agreed. Roads Auth need to get signs manufactured to the sign manual standard.

There's 80 speedlimits on the M1 with no letters, passing Dublin Airport.

marno21

There's an UK style 80 (no letters, just '80') sign also on the eastbound approach to the Jack Lynch Tunnel in Cork.

marno21

marno21 wrote: »

There's an UK style 80 (no letters, just '80') sign also on the eastbound approach to the Jack Lynch Tunnel in Cork.

Don't you mean mainland Europe, if it was a UK style it would be in MPH. :P
Who is going to try and do 80 mph and see if they can get away with it in court! (possible legal loophole as the sign does NOT specify km/h)

spacetweek

chewed wrote: »

And that sign maker should be following the rulebook.

They don't, they simply go with whatever the county council submitted. This is also the case in the UK - the guys on Sabre Roads often complain about that.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You could go to most countries around the world and see a similar trend, but it must be said that Ireland is looser than most when it comes to maintaining a standard template.

Spain is far worse than us for this. The rules seem to be redesigned every 10 years but old signs don't have to be replaced, they have to wear out.

mahoganygas wrote: »

There used to be a MPH sign in Howth a couple of years ago.
Not sure if it's still there.

Do you mean a new one? There are still plenty of old ones hanging around car parks and other private land. My local Dunnes Stores still has them.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

(possible legal loophole as the sign does NOT specify km/h)

It's doubtful that it needs to. The speed limit signs in France don't say that they're in km/h either.

SeamusAFA

chewed wrote: »

I was driving back from the west on Saturday and ended up some back roads. I could not get over all of the inconsistencies in all of the road signs I encountered on my trip! This seems to be endemic across the country.

Are there not standard road sign templates that each of the councils should be using? In some cases it looks like it's just pure laziness or ineptness on the part of the council. It's as if they redesign each sign as required. E.g. Different fonts, spacing, different shades of yellow on warning signs, etc.

Also, is it a policy of all councils to have the signs placed incorrectly on the poles and at an angle? My biggest bugbear is when they erect a new sign and then leave the pole protruding at the top! Why do they do this?

Here's some examples that will look familiar

Ok I work in this industry so I should be able to answer all of this (in theory)

Yes there is standard road sign templates, these are all in the Traffic Signs Manual. These should be the only signs used.
All TII signs that go up will be these signs as they are using approved traffic sign manufacturers. A lot of the irregular signs you see are Co Co signs getting someone else to make the signs, or asking them specifically for odd ball signs.
All signs should be orientated away from the road, this is so there is no dazziling with headlights at night.
No poles should be protruding above a sign, this is generally down to sign slipping down the pole.
On your photos.
The speedlimit signs ever second one is wrong.
The correct junction to right sign is number 2, the others are wrong number 3 especially.
No turn right is number 5 others are wrong.
No entry number 1 is right, no 3 is old no english only signs anymore. No 4 is obsolete now. Photo 5 is Turn left, is correct.
Stop 2 looks right to me, other 2 are wrong.
Road narrows. number 2 is right, number 3 is an old version.
Yield 1 is the correct one, number 2 is an older version.

L1011 wrote: »

The red circle no entry / no turn / compulsary move signs are old and are being phased out. The Yield signs with "right of way" on them are the same, and I'd guess the third Yield sign in is on private land as its completely non standard. The sizing on the junction signs is deliberate.

As goes angles, most of that is vandalism.

There is a red no entry sign with white bar through it.
The no turn and compulsory turn signs are legal signs and are used.

Sizing of signs is proportional to the speed on the road.

L1011

WD_Raceway wrote: »

There is a red no entry sign with white bar through it.
The no turn and compulsory turn signs are legal signs and are used.

I didn't say they weren't legal; I said they were obsolete - the blue compulsory and the international no entry sign have replaced for new installations.

SeamusAFA

L1011 wrote: »

I didn't say they weren't legal; I said they were obsolete - the blue compulsory and the international no entry sign have replaced for new installations.

The blue Turn left sign is incorporated in every roundabout, but other than that has very little use.

TheChizler

What do speed limit signs with grey instead of red signify? Temporary change of speed? They're on the approach to the Watergrasshill toll-booth for instance. https://www.google.ie/maps/@52.0293006,-8.3251015,3a,75y,168.95h,78.54t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s5Hib61N9TJ6hYXiJHBKweQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

SeamusAFA

TheChizler wrote: »

What do speed limit signs with grey instead of red signify? Temporary change of speed? They're on the approach to the Watergrasshill toll-booth for instance. https://www.google.ie/maps/@52.0293006,-8.3251015,3a,75y,168.95h,78.54t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s5Hib61N9TJ6hYXiJHBKweQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Means nothing really, advisory maybe but even that is wrong, and advisory sign should be in black and white and always end in a 5.

Thoie

There's a grey one further back which is advising that in 500m it turns into a 50kph zone (here's the 200m warning on the other side). I can only assume that they made too many grey ones and thought "ah sure, twill be grand".

chewed

Here's another beauty. Spotted in Sutton Cross.

It's supposed to be "No Entry"! WTF?

TheChizler

The colours may be wrong, but the meaning is clear isn't it?

two wheels good

TheChizler wrote: »

The colours may be wrong, but the meaning is clear isn't it?

It's incompetence or total disregard. A failure by the dozy transition year student that made it, the quality checker and the installers. All paid for with public funds by the council.
And a wiley solicitor might get a driving conviction quashed on the basis of an incorrect sign.

TheChizler

TheChizler wrote: »

The colours may be wrong, but the meaning is clear isn't it?

two wheels good wrote: »

It's incompetence or total disregard. A failure by the dozy transition year student that made it, the quality checker and the installers. All paid for with public funds by the council.
And a wiley solicitor might get a driving conviction quashed on the basis of an incorrect sign.

Plus the fact that they're so wrong that they show a total disregard of the rules for signage! The fact that they made it onto the poles says a lot about the whole team.

chewed

Deleted User wrote:

Plus the fact that they're so wrong that they show a total disregard of the rules for signage! The fact that they made it onto the poles says a lot about the whole team.

I emailed Fingal co co to ask who designed and approved them. Looking forward to their response.

Harry Palmr

Of course the real inconsistency here is that the correct sign is the only 'restrictive' street sign along with STOP that is red with white, rather than black on white with red border. I understand why STOP is as it is but not No Entry which should use the same as No Turn Left/Right/U Turn to my mind.

Greenmachine

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Of course the real inconsistency here is that the correct sign is the only 'restrictive' street sign along with STOP that is red with white, rather than black on white with red border. I understand why STOP is as it is but not No Entry which should use the same as No Turn Left/Right/U Turn to my mind.

Stop sign should always be an octagon.

sdanseo

chewed wrote: »

Here's another beauty. Spotted in Sutton Cross.

It's supposed to be "No Entry"! WTF?

chewed wrote: »

I emailed Fingal co co to ask who designed and approved them. Looking forward to their response.

Slightly OT but have they knocked a shop / house there to make an exit from SuperValu? Strange move. Would have been worth 500k +

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3896865,-6.1078648,3a,49y,304.92h,90.07t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-eONrermlcRBzzhOL6UP9g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

My point being if it's an exit the sign might have been erected by SV rather than FCC.

sdanseo

sdanseo wrote: »

Slightly OT but have they knocked a shop / house there to make an exit from SuperValu? Strange move. Would have been worth 500k +

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3896865,-6.1078648,3a,49y,304.92h,90.07t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-eONrermlcRBzzhOL6UP9g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

My point being if it's an exit the sign might have been erected by SV rather than FCC.

Well SV ought to be ordered to put up the correct signs, because at that point it's traffic on the public highway that are reading (and acting upon them).
It is a private road then there is no law stopping drivers who decide to ignore them to drive in that way.

chewed

chewed wrote: »

Here's another beauty. Spotted in Sutton Cross.

It's supposed to be "No Entry"! WTF?

Eventually got a reply from Fingal county council on these signs...

Apologies for the delay getting back to you. The signage in question is located on private lands owned by Supervalu and does not form part of the public realm. Consequently the Council does not have any control over the signage.

So, apparently you can put up any sign you like if it's on private lands!

Sam Russell

chewed wrote: »

Eventually got a reply from Fingal county council on these signs...



So, apparently you can put up any sign you like if it's on private lands!

But they are on the footpath.

JohnC.

But is the footpath public or SuperValu? It seems further in off the road than the public paths either side.

chewed

chewed wrote: »

Eventually got a reply from Fingal county council on these signs...



So, apparently you can put up any sign you like if it's on private lands!

I've seen similar "customised" signs at service stations and industrial car parks, the only course of action is to point out to the owner of the shop that they look stupid!

Alternatively, get some red paint and white and make them right.

chewed

Deleted User wrote: »

I've seen similar "customised" signs at service stations and industrial car parks, the only course of action is to point out to the owner of the shop that they look stupid!

Alternatively, get some red paint and white and make them right.

I've contacted SuperValu to enquire....I'll keep you posted. I'm not going to let this one go!

chewed

chewed wrote: »

I've contacted SuperValu to enquire....I'll keep you posted. I'm not going to let this one go!

I eventually got a response from SuperValu

Many thanks for your email.

Ref email addressing concerns by member of public ref road signs at Supervalu Sutton.

At the end of the project a site walk was conducted with the local Superintendent of An Garda Siochana and members of Fingal County Council. As part of this walk the signage in question was reviewed and deemed fit for purpose. As the signage is on Musgrave property is does not have to align with road safety standard signage and thus the sign is part of the Supervalu specification. As both parties deemed the signage fit for purpose no further action was deemed necessary.

We understand the concerns raised and upon review of the signage I have requested a Musgrave contractor to replace the signage in question with Road Safety Spec.

We hope to have the signage replaced in the coming days.

Should you require any further information please do not hesitate to contact me.

Kind regards.
Sean Fleury
Retail Project Manager
Musgrave Store Development

So, the signage was reviewed and deemed fit for purpose? WTF? We really are a backward country with no consideration for rules and regulations.

chewed

chewed wrote: »

I eventually got a response from SuperValu



So, the signage was reviewed and deemed fit for purpose? WTF? We really are a backward country with no consideration for rules and regulations.

Ah Sure! they'll be grand. Obviously they decided to ignore the signs during the walk.

Good to see that they will replace them after complaints from the public.

chewed

chewed wrote: »

Here's another beauty. Spotted in Sutton Cross.

It's supposed to be "No Entry"! WTF?

I was on Google Maps and noticed they finally changed these signs to the correct ones.

Banatamon

Its the spell check dept of Clare County Council I worry about.