US Student sentenced to 15 years hard labour in North Korea

Iwasfrozen

Ice Maiden wrote: »

Who's "We"? All the innocent people who are not part of the regime should also be bombed?

Anyway, surely you know about its nuclear weapons?

We are the West. Are they innocent people if they support the regime?

Juza1973

suicide_circus wrote: »

pretty sure they beat whatever confession they wanted out of him

Yes, we are taking the authorises claims at face value. Wise move if you live in Nk, but we have the luxury or being skeptic.

darkpagandeath

Can I ask, Why do we excuse adults doing stupid stuff in countries Like NK. They should know better.

Ice Maiden

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

We are the West. Are they innocent people if they support the regime?

Misuse of "we" is stupid. They have no choice but to support the regime ffs. What about people in camps? Oh hang on, are you just pretending to be stupid again?

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Can I ask, Why do we excuse adults doing stupid stuff in countries they should know better.

Not sure which "we" you are referring to? Cannot see much excusing of the lad here.

Iwasfrozen

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Can I ask, Why do we excuse adults doing stupid stuff in countries Like NK. They should know better.

Because 1. There shouldn't be propaganda posters in North Korean hotels. 2. His arrest was politically motivated 3. We don't even know if he did steal the poster, only that he "confessed" he did. And 4. His punishment was far above his crime.

Any more questions?

darkpagandeath

Ice Maiden wrote: »

Misuse of "we" is stupid. They have no choice but to support the regime ffs. What about people in camps? Oh hang on, are you just pretending to be stupid again?

Not sure which "we" you are referring to? Cannot see much excusing of the lad here.

Using the term "We" for modern society/Social media. Like that Fella in Egypt and those in Peru for example.

DEFTLEFTHAND

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Can I ask, Why do we excuse adults doing stupid stuff in countries Like NK. They should know better.

He's a 21 year old college student though, some students do stupid things. He might have had a few jars on him also, on any of the NK tourist documentaries I've watched it seems to be the practice to have a party with your minders on the last night of the tour.

darkpagandeath

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Because 1. There shouldn't be propaganda posters in North Korean hotels. 2. His arrest was politically motivated 3. We don't even know if he did steal the poster, only that he "confessed" he did. And 4. His punishment was far above his crime.

Any more questions?

1 why ?
2 How do you know ?
3 Again how do you know ?
4 Says who ?

Timberrrrrrrr

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

We are the West. Are they innocent people if they support the regime?

We're the people killed in France last year by IS innocent? Or did they deserve to die because they "support the regime"?

How about the thousands of Palestine people killed by indiscriminate bombing by Israel?

Calling for a whole country to be bombed (men women and children) is stupidity beyond belief.

Guy:Incognito

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

We should bomb that country into the stone age.

Can you bomb a country forward in time?

Ice Maiden

darkpagandeath wrote: »

4 Says who ?

Of course it is. The above is just being obtuse. All punishments there are far above the crime (read the post earlier about labour camps) - some of it could not even be logically called crime.
But I agree with you otherwise that he was stupid. Still feel sorry for the dope though.

Iwasfrozen

Ice Maiden wrote: »

Misuse of "we" is stupid. They have no choice but to support the regime ffs. What about people in camps? Oh hang on, are you just pretending to be stupid again?

We definition:
"used by a speaker to refer to himself or herself and one or more other people considered togethe"

If you have any more problems with the concept of "we" and "western world" let me know.

So your idea is to allow the suffering to continue? I suppose you would have supported allowing the Nazis to carry out the Holocaust?

Ice Maiden

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

We're the people killed in France last year by IS innocent? Or did they deserve to die because they "support the regime"?

He would say no of course.

How about the thousands of Palestine people killed by indiscriminate bombing by Israel?

May say yes.

My name is URL

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

We are the West. Are they innocent people if they support the regime?

It's easy to say 'we' should bomb a country back to the stone ages, when 'you' don't have to actually get involved or deal with the fallout.

Such an idiotic statement.

Can't say I'm surprised that you'd support the murder of civilians though, despite the bellyaching you indulge in regarding the murder of civilians in other conflicts.

B_Wayne

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

We are the West. Are they innocent people if they support the regime?

North Korean citizens have been brainwashed for over fifty years and been separated entirely from the outside world. Basically victims of a large scale cult. So yep, very much so innocent.

Iwasfrozen

darkpagandeath wrote: »

1 why ?
2 How do you know ?
3 Again how do you know ?
4 Says who ?

Your defence of the North Korean regime is touching. You're a good useful idiot.

Ice Maiden

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

So your idea is to allow the suffering to continue?

Haha, laughable. Do explain to me how that is my idea. Utter trolling.

I suppose you would have supported allowing the Nazis to carry out the Holocaust?

Yes, of course you "suppose" that.

Iwasfrozen - some bombing good, other bombing bad.

Explain again the logic of bombing a whole load of innocent people for the actions of the regime they are forced to live under?

eeguy

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

We are the West. Are they innocent people if they support the regime?

Do they have a choice?

My name is URL

eeguy wrote: »

Do they have a choice?

Shur aren't they free to leave or revolt? /s

I think part of Iwasfrozen is still a bit frozen, mainly his brain

Iwasfrozen

Ice Maiden wrote: »

Haha, laughable. Do explain to me how that is my idea. Utter trolling.

Well you seem to be against western intervention to overthrow the regime. Would you rather wait until Kim is overthrown by Koreans, if ever? Because that won't be bloodless.

Yes, of course you "suppose" that.

Iwasfrozen - some bombing good, other bombing bad.

Explain again the logic of bombing a whole load of innocent people for the actions of the regime they are forced to live under?

Bomb the regime and support pro southern rebels on the inside to form an alternative government.

How do you think we should deal with North Korea?

darkpagandeath

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Your defence of the North Korean regime is touching. You're a good useful idiot.

Where did I do that now ? Care to answer the Questions ?

Ice Maiden

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Well you seem to be against western intervention to overthrow the regime.

I am against bombing a whole country into the stone age (your words) and cannot see how this would help innocent civilians. You are always complaining about bombing innocent civilians in certain contexts - but then you actually say "we" should bomb a country into the stone age. How laughable is that?
Shur they are not innocent anyway are they, if they support the regime? You tell me I wish to see the suffering continue (pitiful) yet you are the one who comes out with gems like that. Could not make it up.
Stop saying "we" by the way - it gives people credit for something they have not done. If there is one person who most certainly will not be doing any of the work, it is you.

Bomb the regime and support pro southern rebels on the inside to form an alternative government.

Well that makes a lot more sense than "Bomb the whole country into the stone age".

darkpagandeath

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Well you seem to be against western intervention to overthrow the regime. Would you rather wait until Kim is overthrown by Koreans, if ever? Because that won't be bloodless.



Bomb the regime and support pro southern rebels on the inside to form an alternative government.

How do you think we should deal with North Korea?

Ireland ? How would you imagine dealing with a mass indoctrinated population ? That are just as likely to murder you because the leader.

Iwasfrozen

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Where did I do that now ? Care to answer the Questions ?

Right here,

1. There shouldn't be propaganda posters in North Korean hotels.
1. Why?

4. His punishment was far above his crime.
4. Says who?

So don't disagree the NK has a right to put up propaganda posters in hotels and you don't disagree his sentence was overly harsh?

You're acting the maggot.

Dohnjoe

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

How do you think we should deal with North Korea?

Military attack is not an option. China would be unable to cope with the floods of North Korean refugees that would pour across the border, as such wouldn't support any attack, likewise regionally it would be very unpopular

The international community can just keep applying pressure in the hope that the regime cracks, folds or reforms

In the last few years, China has come on board more and more with sanctions and pressure. Since they control virtually all trade and 70% of gas to the country they can potentially make a long term difference

Skylinehead

Mod: Tone down the personal abuse lads

Iwasfrozen

Ice Maiden wrote: »

I am against bombing a whole country into the stone age (your words) and cannot see how this would help innocent civilians. You are always complaining about bombing innocent civilians in certain contexts - but then you actually say "we" should bomb a country into the stone age. How laughable is that?
Shur they are not innocent anyway are they, if they support the regime? You tell me I wish to see the suffering continue (pitiful) yet you are the one who comes out with gems like that. Could not make it up.
Stop saying "we" by the way - it gives people credit for something they have not done. If there is one person who most certainly will not be doing any of the work, it is you.

Well that makes a lot more sense than "Bomb the whole country into the stone age".

A slower, effective but morally dubious way to overthrow the regime would be to place a UN embargo on aid and trade, triggering another famine.

darkpagandeath

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Right here,

1. There shouldn't be propaganda posters in North Korean hotels.
1. Why?

4. His punishment was far above his crime.
4. Says who?

So don't disagree the NK has a right to put up propaganda posters in hotels and you don't disagree his sentence was overly harsh?

You're acting the maggot.

1. Who are we to say what should be in NK hotels ?

4. In an Irish context yes it is. But the guy went to a country that his own government advises not to. And they have laws.

Fail to see how any of that Supports NK.

Ice Maiden

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You're acting the maggot.

I know - being obtuse, argumentative for the sake of it... it is a crap discussion strategy all right.

Nobody sane (or who is not inclined to be argumentative for the sake of it) agrees with the regime but whether you agree or not with state posters being in a hotel (all public buildings are state buildings there) they are there, and someone removing one is beyond belief stupid.
Of course the punishments are too harsh though.

Ice Maiden

darkpagandeath wrote: »

1. Who are we to say what should be in NK hotels ?

4. In an Irish context yes it is. But the guy went to a country that his own government advises not to. And they have laws.

Fail to see how any of that Supports NK.

He knows that full well.

Iwasfrozen

darkpagandeath wrote: »

1. Who are we to say what should be in NK hotels ?

4. In an Irish context yes it is. But the guy went to a country that his own government advises not to. And they have laws.

Fail to see how any of that Supports NK.

1. We are people North Korea would do better to emulate.
.
2. Like I said, overly harsh punishment.

Iwasfrozen

Ice Maiden wrote: »

I know - being obtuse, argumentative for the sake of it... it is a crap discussion strategy all right.

Nobody sane (or who is not inclined to be argumentative for the sake of it) agrees with the regime but whether you agree or not with state posters being in a hotel (all public buildings are state buildings there) they are there, and someone removing one is beyond belief stupid.
Of course the punishments are too harsh though.

North Korea is a vile repressive state guilty of numerous human rights abuses. Kim should be on trial in the Hague.

Debtocracy

If everyone who did something idiotic was sent for hard labour there’d be no idiots left on boards commenting about why such a sentence is deserving

darkpagandeath

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

1. We are people North Korea would do better to emulate.
.
2. Like I said, overly harsh punishment.

1. That they would Indeed.

2. I agree fully never said different. Simply pointing out not liking it will do nothing for the person involved.

Timberrrrrrrr

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

North Korea is a vile repressive state guilty of numerous human rights abuses. Kim should be on trial in the Hague.

So is Saudi Arabia and China yet i don't see you calling for them being bombed.

MarkAnthony

Apparently it's not that bad for him. A Journalist asked him if he was being badly treated and he said he couldn't complain...

I'll get my coat.

mikeym

He says some church group told him to take some propaganda.

Whatever happened to "Thou shall not steal".

He gets what he deserves .

Iwasfrozen

darkpagandeath wrote: »

1. That they would Indeed.

2. I agree fully never said different. Simply pointing out not liking it will do nothing for the person involved.

Unfortunately I doubt there's anything that can be done without giving concessions to NK. It's a difficult place to be in for the Americans and I understand if people disagree but I don't think the US should make any concessions for his release.

As doing so will only streghten the regime and encourage them to arrest more Americans.

Iwasfrozen

mikeym wrote: »

He says some church group told him to take some propaganda.

Whatever happened to "Thou shall not steal".

He gets what he deserves .

He "confessed" that.

Ice Maiden

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

North Korea is a vile repressive state guilty of numerous human rights abuses. Kim should be on trial in the Hague.

Well obviously.

Debtocracy wrote: »

If everyone who did something idiotic was sent for hard labour there’d be no idiots left on boards commenting about why such a sentence is deserving

Ok you will always get the odd person trying to be edgy by saying "Lol no sympathy" but other than that, I do not think anyone has said it is "deserved" have they? Nobody deserves the sentences they hand out over there, but that does not mean they cannot always be avoided by foreigners (less so the poor feckers who have to live there).
Saying he was stupid to do something which he knew could result in a very harsh reprimand, is not the same as saying it is deserved. You can think both. My heart goes out to the poor guy but ffs what an idiotic thing he did. Simply curbing his own behaviour could have prevented this horrendous outcome for him and those close to him. No matter how much you disagree with a regime, you simply cannot stick two fingers up at it when visiting, if you do not want to be punished. As a woman, I obviously find Saudi Arabia repugnant but if I had to go there (and I would not choose to in a fit - but if I had to) I wouldn't be wearing a low-cut top or short skirt or knee-high boots, much as I think I should have the right to wear what the hell I want.

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Drunken teens invade cork

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/locals-vent-anger-after-200-teens-invade-cork-village-347446.html

Riots after super bowl

http://my.xfinity.com/slideshow/sports-topwinriots/5/

Pensioner beaten and mugged

http://www.echo.ie/tallaght/item/pensioner-beaten-with-hammer-and-mugged-in-afternoon-attack

Disabled girl gang raped

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=95129

I know how he debates but I genuinely think he means this country is a better place in which to live than NK is, and he is obviously right.

K.Flyer

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

There shouldn't be propaganda posters in North Korean hotels

Apparently the poster, which was government property, was in the staff only area of the hotel, not in the tourist or public area. Which if its all true, means he also went into an area off limits to the public.

RTA.com

“I committed my crime of taking out the important political slogan from the staff-only area of the Yanggakdo International Hotel..."

Ice Maiden

Debtocracy wrote: »

If everyone who did something idiotic was sent for hard labour there’d be no idiots left on boards commenting about why such a sentence is deserving

Actually sorry - just saw the below but otherwise people are not posting stuff as stupid as that.

mikeym wrote: »

He says some church group told him to take some propaganda.

Whatever happened to "Thou shall not steal".

He gets what he deserves .

No he does not deserve a punishment that severe, end of. Nor do any of the people imprisoned over there. His own behaviour landed him in it, for sure, but he still does not "deserve" it.

Iwasfrozen

K.Flyer wrote: »

Apparently the poster, which was government property, was in the staff only area of the hotel, not in the tourist or public area. Which if its all true, means he also went into an area off limits to the public.

RTA.com

That's a big if, I wouldn't take anything from his confession at face value. We don't even know if he actually stole a poster.

eisen1968

His Admission sounds a bit dodgy, , looks like a North Korean Sentence to me.

darkpagandeath

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That's a big if, I wouldn't take anything from his confession at face value. We don't even know if he actually stole a poster.

Fair point, But that would remove us from believing any Government.

Iwasfrozen

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Fair point, But that would remove us from believing any Government.

The North Korean government is a good bit less reliable than others.

K.Flyer

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That's a big if, I wouldn't take anything from his confession at face value. We don't even know if he actually stole a poster.

True alright, a big if.
I would think the poster theft is plausible and probably an in the moment opportunity.
I would take the rest about the church and money for it as made up B.S.. unless that "church" come forward and say it was a planned idea, then who knows.

darkpagandeath

K.Flyer wrote: »

True alright, a big if.
I would think the poster theft is plausible and probably an in the moment opportunity.
I would take the rest about the church and money for it as made up B.S.. unless that "church" come forward and say it was a planned idea, then who knows.

It sounds plausible to me, Collecting a souvenir. If it was planing to kill the Leader then nope.

Dohnjoe

It's just a guy grabbing a souvenir

Timberrrrrrrr

Dohnjoe wrote: »

It's just a guy stealing government property

FYP