Shannon Water Pipeline - Parteen to Dublin

blue5000

How much electricity is it going to take to pump 2 metres/sec of water to Dublin? Is there any scope to generate power somewhere along the line for those half time spikes in power demand?

Water John

Don't know the technical design. It would have been possible to build a storage on some hill enroute. But that would not be the core business of Irish Water.
It would also cost high on the capital side.
That would simply be an electrical storage facility. About 80% efficient.
Only point is there will be almost zero drag on the water in the pipe. So once you get it moving, no problem. May be their will stage pumping?
See your post Deedsie.

blue5000

Deedsie wrote: »

Gravity takes care of a lot of the journey. I think there is a pump at Cloughjordan, Co. Tipperary to pump the water but that is it.

AFAIK there is a pressure break point at Cloughjordan, approx 100m above sea level, that's the highest point on the pipe, after that it's gravity all the way to Dublin. I presume the pump will be at the Shannon end?

Water John

That would make sense, Blue. 100m head and let it flow.

realitykeeper

Yesterday I read in the Irish Examiner that the reason the Parteen Basin was chosen over Lough Rea was because the Parteen basin is a man made reservoir which resulted from the construction of the Ardnacrucha dam. The Parteen Basin is further from Dublin than Lough Rea and the pipeline would be more expensive but in any case, it is apparently deemed more politically acceptable because Parteen is not a natural lake. What a load of rubbish! The real reason is because Lough Rea may one day be required to produce shale gas due to geopolitical tensions with Russia. The pollution that would cause makes Lough Rea unsuitable as a reliable source of water for Dublin`s leaking water pipes.

realitykeeper

blue5000 wrote: »

Does anyone know if this will definitely go ahead? If it does how big will the pipe be and how deep? Any proposed routes yet?

Thanks.

There was something about that in yesterday`s Irish Examiner. During construction, they will need 50m of ground to work on (presumably 25m each side of the pipe) and after construction, the pipe will have a 20m exclusion zone. As for the pipe itself, I don`t know.

Bray Head

It makes more sense to take it from further up the Shannon. The pipe would be shorter and a lot cheaper. This was the original plan that was around as long ago as fifteen years ago I think.

This original plan met a lot of local opposition due to the impact on flows downriver from the pipe. (Much overblown in my opinion but anyway).

From what I can tell Parteen has been chosen for political rather than engineering reasons. There is a smaller proportional loss as the flow is much greater at Parteen. And less people downriver to get annoyed.

@realitykeeper I am not convinced. If the Shannon is polluted at Lough Rea it will still be polluted at Parteen.

realitykeeper

Bray Head wrote: »

@realitykeeper I am not convinced. If the Shannon is polluted at Lough Rea it will still be polluted at Parteen.

Not nearly as much. Fracking can add dissolved hydrocarbons in the form of methane gas to the water supply but these are gradually released into the atmosphere as the water flows from the relatively stagnant waters of the lake to the faster flowing river. Then there is the downstream catchment area with many unaffected tributaries diluting those pollutants.

Moreover, opposition by landowners over the greater distance from Parteen would be every bit as staunch as it would be by farmers further north had the route from Loughrea been chosen. The claim that Parteen was chosen for political reasons seems to me to be suspect because it does not make sense. I guess they could hardly say we may need Loughrea for fracking in the future. If I am correct, the "political reasons" excuse is for political reasons, but the Parteen basin is chosen for strategic reasons.

In any case, people in the west generally oppose water being pumped from any part of the Shannon to Dublin. I am from Cork and I agree with them.

Bray Head

I think a lot of landowners are looking forward to a payday:)

realitykeeper

Bray Head wrote: »

I think a lot of landowners are looking forward to a payday:)

Come now, how about all those motorway squashed into Dublin and millionaires being made from the cabbage patch in the corner of the garden. Remember the motorway song?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKAvjXSdAD0
The Irish paid for what Dublin got. History repeats.

marno21

Article on the water supply situation in Dublin in the Times (paywall alert)

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/east-coast-water-supply-on-knife-edge-between-supply-and-demand-1.3527099

jacksie66

This post has been deleted.

db

jacksie66 wrote: »

It's going to be interesting if there's a bit of a drought when this pipeline goes ahead. I'm from very close to the Parteen Weir. During an extended period without rain the water level in the river is pretty low. Even behind the weir in Parteen Basin where this pipe is going to be you can make out the chimney of a house that was there before the Shannon scheme.

The water for the pipeline is to be compensated for by a reduction in the water allocated to the canal so there should be no difference in the level of the Parteen basin or the river through Castleconnell.

gctest50

They should drop the power station and dam while they're at it :

May Contain Small Parts

jacksie66 wrote: »

It's going to be interesting if there's a bit of a drought when this pipeline goes ahead. I'm from very close to the Parteen Weir. During an extended period without rain the water level in the river is pretty low. Even behind the weir in Parteen Basin where this pipe is going to be you can make out the chimney of a house that was there before the Shannon scheme.

It's not a natural occurrence. It's a damn controlled river and the ESB are legally obliged to have a certain minimum release at all times. They will still be bound to this in the future.

In general though, the actual amount they're talking about abstracting is so small that it probably won't have a noticeable effect.

blue5000

May Contain Small Parts wrote: »

It's not a natural occurrence. It's a damn controlled river and the ESB are legally obliged to have a certain minimum release at all times. They will still be bound to this in the future.

In general though, the actual amount they're talking about abstracting is so small that it probably won't have a noticeable effect.

AFAIK the pipe is being over engineered so that in future if they want to double or quadruple extraction rates all they have to do is increase the size of the filtration/treatment area and away it goes.

May Contain Small Parts

blue5000 wrote: »

AFAIK the pipe is being over engineered so that in future if they want to double or quadruple extraction rates all they have to do is increase the size of the filtration/treatment area and away it goes.

Huh, decided to read up on this for the first time in a while. From what I remember, a few years ago they were looking for a license to abstract up to 100 megalitres. The recent news all says something like "up to 330 megalitres by 2050*" - which I suppose would tie in with what you're saying?

Anyway. 330 megalitres/day is about 3.8 cumecs (m^3/s), the shannon averages about a flow-rate of 98 cumecs. So...at most we're talking about 4%?

(*that "by 2050" bit tended to get buried in the articles for some reason...)

blue5000

If the average is 98 m3/sec, any idea what the lowest flow rate is in a dry summer?

May Contain Small Parts

blue5000 wrote: »

If the average is 98 m3/sec, any idea what the lowest flow rate is in a dry summer?

about 21.

medoc

I thought one of the options was for a massive reservoir near Garyhinch in Offaly. That would allow maximum extraction in winter months and for reduced or minimal extraction rates during dry spells.

Capt'n Midnight

Alun wrote: »

Desalination is a whole different process to purification, and much more costly.

It takes energy to remove salt. So higher running costs but lower capital costs.

IMHO it could be an interesting way to use surplus power when it's available.

plodder

medoc wrote: »

I thought one of the options was for a massive reservoir near Garyhinch in Offaly. That would allow maximum extraction in winter months and for reduced or minimal extraction rates during dry spells.

I wonder if that option is likely to be revisited given the present conditions. Presumably it wouldn't be if the present drought is not likely to be repeated for another 20-30 years, but can we be sure that is the case?

Would be interesting to know what the flow rate in the Shannon is at the moment. I imagine it must be well below anything predicted.

See attached link: not much flow (11 m3/sec). Surprised it's even that much to be honest.

ESB report worth keeping an eye on, to see how low it goes in weeks to come:

http://www.esbhydro.ie/Shannon/08-Total-Parteen-Weir-Flow.pdf

blue5000

I wonder what is the evaporation rate off the 3 lakes is when the air temp hits 30 C?

Bray Head

medoc wrote: »

I thought one of the options was for a massive reservoir near Garyhinch in Offaly. That would allow maximum extraction in winter months and for reduced or minimal extraction rates during dry spells.

Why would you bother when you could just pipe it from further downstream?

There is a HUGE risk of delays to planning approval from putting a reservoir into your plans.

May Contain Small Parts

Bray Head wrote: »

Why would you bother when you could just pipe it from further downstream?

There is a HUGE risk of delays to planning approval from putting a reservoir into your plans.

The pipeline is worth it in its own right, but really both are needed to ensure quality supply.

...that and lots of other things

May Contain Small Parts

May Contain Small Parts wrote: »

The pipeline is worth it in its own right, but really both are needed to ensure quality supply.

...that and lots of other things

Like a properly funded utility provider that can bill for the service it provides like almost everywhere else in the world and use that income to increase the efficiency and effectiveness of the water network to ensure stability of supply for generations to come

But that would be daft cos it rains loads in Ireland so we don't need to worry

RTE radio 1 Drivetime is doing a series of interviews of locals along the pipeline route this week.

It began down in Limerick today.


Some was local politics, "them above in Dublin, we will fight them all the way for OUR water" type stuff, but it was fairly interesting.

I think the reporter moves up the country a bit tomorrow evening.

Sam Russell

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

RTE radio 1 Drivetime is doing a series of interviews of locals along the pipeline route this week.

It began down in Limerick today.


Some was local politics, "them above in Dublin, we will fight them all the way for OUR water" type stuff, but it was fairly interesting.

I think the reporter moves up the country a bit tomorrow evening.

For the past 80 years, they have been trying to drain the Shannon. This is a great opportunity to get rid of some of it. It was not long ago, when the Shannon flooded a huge area of farmland causing huge costs to homes, crops and livestock.

They wanted Government bail out (literally) and financial assistance. Now they want to keep the water.

You cannot please some folks.

May Contain Small Parts

Deleted User wrote: »

Like a properly funded utility provider that can bill for the service it provides like almost everywhere else in the world and use that income to increase the efficiency and effectiveness of the water network to ensure stability of supply for generations to come

But that would be daft cos it rains loads in Ireland so we don't need to worry

The key isn't just billing, it's borrowing.
When Irish Water was set up it was with the aim to allow money to be borrowed(many billions) to invest in infrastructure without it counting towards the State deficit - similar to PPP schemes for roads etc. but on a bigger scale.

IMO, it was because the EU said that this debt would go on the State balance sheets that water charges were dropped, not so much because of the protests/refusals.

This isn't likely to change, so I think the model they were looking to go for is dead anyway.

db

Sam Russell wrote: »

For the past 80 years, they have been trying to drain the Shannon. This is a great opportunity to get rid of some of it. It was not long ago, when the Shannon flooded a huge area of farmland causing huge costs to homes, crops and livestock.

They wanted Government bail out (literally) and financial assistance. Now they want to keep the water.

You cannot please some folks.

I'm not sure what you mean by your first sentence but the only people trying to drain the Shannon for the last 80 years have been the ESB. The reduced water flow since the canal was built has completely silted up the original course of the river.

The pipeline will have zero impact on any future flooding of the Shannon below the extraction point. The river floods at over 400 cumecs while the pipeline will take 4 cumecs, no more than a drop in the ocean.

The only way I can see to improve the flooding above Limerick city is to de-commission Ardnacrusha, and send most of the volume of water through the original river. That will gradually increase the capacity of the river back to what it was before the canal was built. The canal can then be used to take excess water during floods. I can't see this ever happening though.

Sam Russell

db wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean by your first sentence but the only people trying to drain the Shannon for the last 80 years have been the ESB. The reduced water flow since the canal was built has completely silted up the original course of the river.

This from Irish waterways history

← Dublin to Shannon Harbour 1831B Specials on the Shannon-Erne Waterway? →
Draining the Shannon
Posted on Monday 25 December 2017 | 1 Comment

Lough Allen to Sligo (OSI 25″ ~1900)

In looking at the map of Ireland, it has appeared to me that it may be found of advantage to prevent the waters of Lough Allen from flowing into the Shannon, and to cut a channel in a north-westerly direction, along which they may run into Sligo Bay. By this disposition of the waters of Lough Allen, not only will the channel of the Shannon be relieved from the superabundant water which now flows along during the rainy season, but they will act very beneficially in scouring out the harbour of Sligo. The Shannon might likewise be made available to the supply of power to several valuable mills to be erected on its course.

The Report of Mr George Stephenson, Civil Engineer, London, 9th July, 1831, to the Committee appointed to inquire into the practicability of improving the navigation of the Shannon, and for draining the lands in the vicinage

The above is from the above publication,

The dream of every politician since was to drain the Shannon and relieve the annual flooding. That way they would gain unending thanks and votes.

db

That is from an English engineer 250 years ago, it hardly backs up your point that people in the Limerick area (I am guessing that that is who you refer to as "they") have been trying to drain the Shannon for the last 80 years. I see you also ignored my point that the pipeline will do nothing to relieve the flooding on the Shannon below the Parteen weir.

Sam Russell

It is the population of Clare, Offaly, and right up to Carrick on Shannon will all see a draining of the Shannon as a 'good thing'. As such, it is good for parish pump vote getting, even if it never happens. Floods come every so often, and are soon forgotten.

Water John

It's simple. A few basic questions need answers. Has Dublin enough water?
What effect would mains refurbishment have on the first question?
If it needs more where can that be sourced, at least capital and operational cost?

It's good to remember that mains refurbishment is not optional. It needs to be done anyway.

Sam Russell

A number of years ago, (more than ten), our house was part of a mains refurbishment project. Before this the mains would burst, no water, and be repaired, followed by a prolonged brown water supply. The project consisted of digging a hole for each connection, feeding a rope down the old mains and pulling a blue plastic pipe down the old pipe. Connections were then made to each house - meters connected. Increased pressure, better flow, and sparkling clean water.

One house had a leak of many thousands of litres per day. At the end of the project, leakage was zero - none - not a drop. The project was not continued because IW was going to take over, but not a word ever was spoken about the project. All the shiny meters we had were replaced by IW.

Imagine how many pipes would have been replaced if they had continued with more projects. They have to get on with pipe replacements anyway.

The Shannon project is a long term solution, pipe repairs are a now problem.

LiamaDelta

Sam Russell wrote:

Imagine how many pipes would have been replaced if they had continued with more projects. They have to get on with pipe replacements anyway.

They are continuing with more of these projects regularly, just not in your area. They are now doing them according to priority i.e. the worst cases first (or in some cases the worst cases that are easiest to do).

plodder

plodder wrote: »

See attached link: not much flow (11 m3/sec). Surprised it's even that much to be honest.

ESB report worth keeping an eye on, to see how low it goes in weeks to come:

http://www.esbhydro.ie/Shannon/08-Total-Parteen-Weir-Flow.pdf

Turns out the minimum allowed flow rate of the river is 10 m3/sec. So, that explains the 11 m3/sec figure that's been experienced for the last month or so. Lough Derg's water levels are kept within specific bounds as well.

What is more interesting then is the levels in Lough Ree, which must be what is ultimately supplying that 11 cubic metres a second. The attached image shows data for the last 30 days. Seems to have been stable enough for the last week, maybe from the bit of rain there has been, but clearly was on a downward trend for the few weeks prior to that. I imagine some reduction is normal for the time of year and the dry spell particularly. I wonder if the abnormally high temperatures have had an effect on losses due to evaporation, which can be significant apparently.

Capt'n Midnight

plodder wrote: »

I wonder if the abnormally high temperatures have had an effect on losses due to evaporation, which can be significant apparently.

Yes.

But there's also the lack of water coming in.

Soil moisture deficits are currently in excess of 75 mm over Leinster and Muster with drought conditions.

or in English the fields could easily soak up 75mm of rain. Which is about a months rainfall in Gurteen.

Bonzo Delaney

Prob a stupid question and slightly off topic
But curious to know the answer from someone more clued in to this project.
Why can't the canals not be used to transport water from the Shannon to Dublin ? Saving the cost of a pipe line. Prob have to automate the gates though.

Sam Russell

Bonzo Delaney wrote: »

Prob a stupid question and slightly off topic
But curious to know the answer from someone more clued in to this project.
Why can't the canals not be used to transport water from the Shannon to Dublin ? Saving the cost of a pipe line. Prob have to automate the gates though.

Pipeline is more efficient. Once it gets to the top of the hill, it just goes downhill on its own by gravity, and does not get contaminated by oil, effluent, etc. The plan is to design the route so this happens, whereas a canal is much harder to control.

Also more under control of IW using a pipe.

Water John

Every lifting lock would need a pump anyway, for one.

Bonzo Delaney

Sam Russell wrote: »

Pipeline is more efficient. Once it gets to the top of the hill, it just goes downhill on its own by gravity, and does not get contaminated by oil, effluent, etc. The plan is to design the route so this happens, whereas a canal is much harder to control.

Also more under control of IW using a pipe.

Ah that makes sense .
Was stuck in dublin traffic this morning along the canal and was just thinking all that water coming from the Shannon how come they can't use that.
But yeah in a contained pipe line IW have full control of the product.
Thanks.

Carawaystick

Bonzo Delaney wrote: »

Ah that makes sense .
Was stuck in dublin traffic this morning along the canal and was just thinking all that water coming from the Shannon how come they can't use that.
But yeah in a contained pipe line IW have full control of the product.
Thanks.

Fadó, fadó they used to use canal water for the public water supply. The Blessington st bassin was a reservoir fed by the royal canal

Guinness used to use the Grand Canal spur where the luas is now for their water

plodder

The other thing to consider about drawing water from the canals is that they didn't just get their water supply from the Shannon. They have to be "fed" along the route by local rivers/water sources. So, if you draw water from the canals in Dublin, it probably wouldn't be coming from the Shannon at all, but from one of those intermediate sources.

Feed Up

Not sure that the Royal and Grand Canals are fed from the Shannon.

In the case of the RC it's fed at the summit level from Lough Owel with additional water piped from Lough Ennell together with additional water sources in both directions. The RC joints the Shannon at Richmond Harbour, Cloondara. Taking gravity into account I can't see the Shannon being a source of water for the RC. I could be wrong though.

Similar would apply to the GC. From what I can recall the summit level is around Robertstown, which is closer to Dublin than Shannon Harbour.

G-Man

7 springs and pollardstown fen is a major source of water to GC, via a special feeder canal. At some stage in 70s/80s attempts were made to drain the fen for agri use. It got stopped and drains were blocked and the fen is a great place to visit.

Guinness I think still use the filter beds at Bluebell, (they look maintained), but for maintenance... Brewing water comes from their own onsite wells, nicely replenished by all those leaking pipes perhaps.

Could the path of the pipeline be maintained as a long distance cycle way. Its not without precedent. The grand canal cycleway from bluebell to lucan only got constructed when ESB needed to use right of way to bury cables from Inchicore to Grange Castle.. It connects some major towns Tullamore, Birr, Nenagh, Limerick. Its likely to be at a reasonable consistent gradient too.

blue5000

Another problem with the canal is that when it gets to Dublin it's at sea level. In a pipeline it should have pressure in the pipe from the highest point along the pipe 300ft I think it is above sea level, provided there isn't any leaks along the way:rolleyes:.