Madonna concert, is this sexual assault?

Galwayguy35

Sorry I don't know how to post links but I'm sure some people will have heard of this incident by now.

Madonna was at a concert in Australia and brought a fan who was only 17 up on stage and pulled down her top exposing one her breasts.

I'm amazed at the double standards here, if was a man who did this the internet would be hopping with people demanding he be thrown in jail but because it's a woman it doesn't seem to be taken as seriously.

smash

"Madonna fan says having top pulled down by singer was the best moment of her life"
http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/music/78036380/madonna-pulls-fans-top-down-live-on-stage-in-australia

Enough said...

Sleepy

To be fair the quote from her directly after it happened would insinuate she hadn't actually meant to expose the girl's breast, considered it sexual assault and apologised?

I'm in work so can't really watch the video but unless she used a sarcastic / flirty tone that insinuated the exposure was indeed deliberate, it'd seem a bit harsh for her to be sued over such an accident.

I'm sure the girl in question is only delighted to have Madonna owing her a favour. The article says she has hopes of becoming a model and one would assume Madonna would be more than capable of helping her out in that regard...

Sure, it's sexist. Was this a male singer, there'd probably be outrage but then again, considering how women have always thrown themselves at pop/rock stars, I can't imagine it would be the "victim" being the one outraged...

stoplooklisten

The girl is a model. I think it's a publicity stunt.


If madonna did that to me, I'd sue for every penny. Yes is it sexual assault.

One eyed Jack

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Sorry I don't know how to post links but I'm sure some people will have heard of this incident by now.

Madonna was at a concert in Australia and brought a fan who was only 17 up on stage and pulled down her top exposing one her breasts.

I'm amazed at the double standards here, if was a man who did this the internet would be hopping with people demanding he be thrown in jail but because it's a woman it doesn't seem to be taken as seriously.

Nobody demanded Justin Timberlake be thrown in jail when Janet Jackson experienced a "wardrobe malfunction" during their Superbowl performance. Sure, there was a bit of "internet outrage", but it seemed more focussed on Janet being in the wrong than Justin.

Switching the genders like that just doesn't work OP, and the girl herself said that it was up to her to determine whether she was sexually assaulted or not. She decided she wasn't.

Madonna is still a tit though.

mansize

Madonna knows how to get free publicity

super_furry

“Only I get to decide if I’m humiliated or not. Why would people assume I am humiliated by my own breast, nipple or body?”

Case closed.

Chemical Byrne

I think it is sexual assault. She touched her in a sexual zone without her consent and exposed a breast to the crowd.

Picture the uproar that would ensue if, say, Andrea Boccelli hauled a girl up onto the stage and opened her top for the crowd to see and whoop at. He'd be arrested before leaving the venue.

jimgoose

I don't know if it's sexual assault - depends on you the girl feels about it, I suppose. But it was definitely a quare óinseach of a thing to do. :pac:

H3llR4iser

It's a complicated story that involves the classic "men=criminals, women=victims" societal assumption, which in my view is actually demeaning towards women - it is a vision that essentially strips them of one of the innate human distinguishing traits, the ability of doing pointless evil. Not our brightest side, for sure, but still one we have and defines us compared to other species.

So what happens is that, like in this case, when the "bad guy" happens to be a woman, the event is either irrelevant (if the victim is a man, who should just "man up" and take it in stride) or something that was "not intended" or done "just for fun".

The Janet Jackson case is only relatively relevant - the singer wasn't underage, and being already well established in the showbiz, most people perceived the incident as a publicity stunt; In Madonna's case, I do believe that if a male singer did the same there would have been, if not a court case, at least a classic "Internet lynch mob" springing up with the classic "objectifying women" arguments.

That said, the girl in question (if I understood how things went) clearly isn't bothered, so if it's ok with her...

Chemical Byrne

Some ppl are saying that it depends on whether she considers it a sex assault or not or if she gave consent.

If she is only 17 then it might be the case that regardless of her opinion it could be a case of statutory rape (or sex assault) if she is under the age of consent. Is there such a thing as a statutory sexual assault?

eviltwin

Chemical Byrne wrote: »

Some ppl are saying that it depends on whether she considers it a sex assault or not or if she gave consent.

If she is only 17 then it might be the case that regardless of her opinion it could be a case of statutory rape (or sex assault) if she is under the age of consent. Is there such a thing as a statutory sexual assault?

It would be classed as child abuse I'd imagine.

Not sure what to make of this, my head is saying its all been staged in which case its not assault and the worst thing we could be doing is giving her the attention she needs.

Assuming its genuine, okay the girl is not upset by it but what difference does that make really? Its not okay to pull someone's top down regardless. I can't see anything to suggest that it was a genuine accident or that Madonna is really contrite over it.

stoplooklisten

Production and distribution of child pornography if she's underage

mansize

mansize wrote: »

Madonna knows how to get free publicity

She sure gave that girl some exposure! No such thing as bad publicity. It's just a pity that the girl thinks so little of herself that she finds this acceptable.

Senna

Jesus, she was complementing her top and didn't purposely try to expose her breast, it just happened accidentally when she touched the tasle that was hanging down.
The girls not offended so why do people on the Internet want to get offended on her behalf.

stoplooklisten

Senna wrote: »

Jesus, she was complementing her top and didn't purposely try to expose her breast, it just happened accidentally when she touched the tasle that was hanging down.
The girls not offended so why do people on the Internet want to get offended on her behalf.

The star had again turned up late to her Rebel Hearts arena concert in Brisbane, Australia, before inviting up Josephine Georgiou because 'she's the kind of girl you just want to slap on the a**'.
The fan stood open-mouthed as Madonna, 57, suddenly pulled her corset-style top down to reveal her breasts and said: ‘Oh s***. Oh sorry, sexual harassment.’

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-3498433/Sorry-Sexual-harassment-Madonna-shocks-tour-invites-young-female-fan-stage-exposes-breast-describing-kind-girl-just-want-slap-a.html

odd way to complement her top

One eyed Jack

eviltwin wrote: »

It would be classed as child abuse I'd imagine.

Not sure what to make of this, my head is saying its all been staged in which case its not assault and the worst thing we could be doing is giving her the attention she needs.

Assuming its genuine, okay the girl is not upset by it but what difference does that make really? Its not okay to pull someone's top down regardless. I can't see anything to suggest that it was a genuine accident or that Madonna is really contrite over it.

Yeah the girl herself is 17 so even if Madonna could be charged with sexual assault, she won't be, as it would be impossible to say it wasn't an accident when the girl herself excuses Madonna's behavior.

The stunt she pulled with Drake was a lot worse IMO, for a minute there he looked very perplexed by the whole incident, and as for kissing Christina and Britney on stage a couple of years back...

It's not because of the fact that she's a woman that her behaviour is generally excused. It's because she's a celebrity.

Madonna isn't the first celebrity who's inappropriate behaviour has been justified and excused by people who would normally be regarded as victims, because of the victims adoration for them.

stoplooklisten

One eyed Jack wrote: »

...

Madonna isn't the first celebrity who's inappropriate behaviour has been justified and excused by people who would normally be regarded as victims, because of the victims adoration for them.

jimmy saville for years

two wheels good

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Sorry I don't know how to post links but I'm sure some people will have heard of this incident by now.

Madonna was at a concert in Australia and brought a fan who was only 17 up on stage and pulled down her top exposing one her breasts.

I'm amazed at the double standards here, if was a man who did this the internet would be hopping with people demanding he be thrown in jail but because it's a woman it doesn't seem to be taken as seriously.

More than 7000 posts and you haven't figured out links yet! It's the symbol of the globe and the chain link; above the message text box. The one that says "Insert Link" when you mouse-over.

CarFan100

Obvious pr stunt benefitting both of them imo

py2006

Forget it. It's would only be considered sexual assault if a man did it. It's all a bit of fun when a woman does it and sure her 'fan' has her moment of fame.

One eyed Jack

py2006 wrote: »

Forget it. It's would only be considered sexual assault if a man did it. It's all a bit of fun when a woman does it and sure her 'fan' has her moment of fame.

No, it would be considered sexual assault if the person felt it was sexual assault. They're not a minor so they're able to speak for themselves, and they've chosen not to press charges because they don't feel that they were sexually assaulted.

How many decades have male celebrities been groping women on stage and they didn't claim at the time they were sexually assaulted?

If you're going to complain about women making spurious claims of sexual assault, then you really don't have any ground to stand on when they don't make spurious claims of sexual assault. That's trying to have it both ways by your own standards.

py2006

py2006 wrote: »

Forget it. It's would only be considered sexual assault if a man did it. It's all a bit of fun when a woman does it and sure her 'fan' has her moment of fame.

A man did do it.

Justin Timberlake exposed Janet Jacksons boob during the superbowl interval ten years ago, all that happened was she apologised for it.

RDM_83 again

One eyed Jack wrote: »

No, it would be considered sexual assault if the person felt it was sexual assault. They're not a minor so they're able to speak for themselves, and they've chosen not to press charges because they don't feel that they were sexually assaulted.

How many decades have male celebrities been groping women on stage and they didn't claim at the time they were sexually assaulted?

If you're going to complain about women making spurious claims of sexual assault, then you really don't have any ground to stand on when they don't make spurious claims of sexual assault. That's trying to have it both ways by your own standards.

Its definitely sexual harassment if it was deliberate and the girl wasn't in on the act.

Its really simple to be gender neutral, just reverse the genders and consider the reaction.

Also does it actually matter that at present she doesn't consider it sexual assault, she is young (and 17 year olds are idiots) and there is a very unequal power dynamic as well as media attention and the pressure to be a "good sport".
In the future if she changes her mind about what occurs does it suddenly become sexual assault.
Its important to consider no consent was given, are rape victims who at the time don't consider what happened to them rape not victims of crimes?

People wonder about lad culture and want to raise wolf whistling to a criminal offence yet this is OK ???

RDM_83 again

Candie wrote: »

A man did do it.

Justin Timberlake exposed Janet Jacksons boob during the superbowl interval ten years ago, all that happened was she apologised for it.

Janet Jackson shouldn't have had to apologise but the incident is in no way comparable, that was a rehearsed stage show that both participants presumably consented too that went slightly wrong.

Well both Madonna and JJ claimed the incidents were accidents, though how JJ had an accident that involved JT exposing her is strange.

I think both incidents have more to do with fame than with gender. Man or woman on the street groping a stranger would invite outrage.

One eyed Jack

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Its definitely sexual harassment if it was deliberate and the girl wasn't in on the act.

Its really simple to be gender neutral, just reverse the genders and consider the reaction.

It's impossible though to determine whether it actually was deliberate or not though, it doesn't appear to have been deliberate. The "reverse the genders" stuff ignores all sorts of context, as we could introduce all sorts of scenarios - were women throwing their knickers at Tom Jones sexually harassing him? Etc, etc... ad infinitum, or we could just consider the scenario as it happened here and make our judgements based on what actually happened, not what we imagine would happen in a totally different scenario.

Also does it actually matter that at present she doesn't consider it sexual assault, she is young (and 17 year olds are idiots) and there is a very unequal power dynamic as well as media attention and the pressure to be a "good sport".
In the future if she changes her mind about what occurs does it suddenly become sexual assault.
Its important to consider no consent was given, are rape victims who at the time don't consider what happened to them rape not victims of crimes?

Sure, there is that pressure to be a good sport and all the rest of it, and of course there's an unequal power dynamic and all the rest of it, but we can only deal with claims of sexual assault if someone claims they were sexually harassed or sexually assaulted, which, in this case, nobody claimed they were sexually assaulted or harassed. So, even if you reverse the genders - two men on the stage and the guy on the stage doesn't claim they were sexually assaulted, what can you do? Internet rage because there isn't any internet rage?

People wonder about lad culture and want to raise wolf whistling to a criminal offence yet this is OK ???

Do you really want to be encouraging them? Then complaining about a non-incident like this is probably going the right way about it.

dr.fuzzenstein

stoplooklisten wrote: »

The girl is a model. I think it's a publicity stunt.


If madonna did that to me, I'd sue for every penny. Yes is it sexual assault.

Keep dreaming.

stoplooklisten

So if I see Madonna out an about, I can rip off her top, for the craic? I doubt she'd appreciate it.


aslo the night before, wasn't she singing a song about ****ing dedicated to her 15 year old son?


This woman is 57 years old and a parent to adopted children.

I'm not suprised tbh that her son whats to stay with Guy, if my mother was gong about sexually assaulting 17 year olds and singing about ****ing me, I'd have her committed.



Jeremy Jackson receives police caution after being kicked out of Celebrity Big Brother house for exposing Chloe Goodman's breast

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2907417/Celebrity-Big-Brother-Jeremy-Jackson-receives-caution-police.

jackofalltrades

Can't see how it can be claimed that what Madonna did was accidental.
If you accidentally exposed some would you really follow it with "You can do the same to me if you like".
You wouldn't, because it damn right creepy.

If a 57 year old man did this to 17 year old woman I'd say the witch hunt would be fully underway on Twitter right now.

One eyed Jack

jackofalltrades wrote: »

Can't see how it can be claimed that what Madonna did was accidental.

It's easy claim it was accidental when the girl herself says her top was too big for her. Good luck to you questioning the account of the girl you need to claim was a victim, when she has no intention of doing so herself.

If you accidentally exposed some would you really follow it with "You can do the same to me if you like".
You wouldn't, because it damn right creepy.

You would if you were a celebrity like Madonna, who knows exactly how to carry on when something doesn't go according to plan - see the video where she was hopped off the stage when one of the dancers yanked her cape and it didn't come away as expected. She got right back up again and carried on.

If a 57 year old man did this to 17 year old woman I'd say the witch hunt would be fully underway on Twitter right now.

Step forward Bill Wyman, Jerry Lewis and Elvis bringing up the rear, and those are only the examples I can think of off the top of my head.

If you reverse the genders, then you're also going to have to suggest that women stop willingly flashing their boobs at male celebrities. I don't see any twitter war among men calling for that to happen.

py2006

Candie wrote: »

A man did do it.

Justin Timberlake exposed Janet Jacksons boob during the superbowl interval ten years ago, all that happened was she apologised for it.

Wasn't that a wardrobe accident??

Victor

Chemical Byrne wrote: »

Some ppl are saying that it depends on whether she considers it a sex assault or not or if she gave consent.

If she is only 17 then it might be the case that regardless of her opinion it could be a case of statutory rape (or sex assault) if she is under the age of consent. Is there such a thing as a statutory sexual assault?

While it would seem to be inappropriate, especially if contrived., for it to be rape, there needs to be genital penetration and for it to be sexual assault, there needs to be genital contact.

Someone could get sexual gratification from touching someone's knee on the bus, that doesn't make it sexual assault. It's assault (more correctly battery), with a sexual motivation.

jackofalltrades

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It's easy claim it was accidental when the girl herself says her top was too big for her.

So if your clothes are too big then someone can't deliberately remove them????
Have you seen the video?

Step forward Bill Wyman, Jerry Lewis and Elvis bringing up the rear, and those are only the examples I can think of off the top of my head..

And which one of them recently did the equivalent of what Madonna did?

stoplooklisten

Victor wrote: »

While it would seem to be inappropriate, especially if contrived., for it to be rape, there needs to be genital penetration and for it to be sexual assault, there needs to be genital contact.

Someone could get sexual gratification from touching someone's knee on the bus, that doesn't make it sexual assault. It's assault (more correctly battery), with a sexual motivation.

The "celebrity" that did it in the big brother house got a police caution for common assault. Is OZ law similar to Britain?

One eyed Jack

jackofalltrades wrote: »

So if your clothes are too big then someone can't deliberately remove them????
Have you seen the video?

I've seen the video, and the girl was already adjusting her top while Madonna was talking about smacking her ass, and as she carried on talking, "pull, on her... oh, shìt", as she realised she'd yanked down the top. There was no "removing" her clothes. There's no need to exaggerate. Was it a deliberate set-up, was it a deliberate publicity stunt, was it an accident? Impossible to say, therefore we have no choice but to go with the word of the girl herself, and we don't get to paint her as a victim if she herself says she isn't a victim.

And which one of them recently did the equivalent of what Madonna did?

Wasn't your point about older men and young girls? They did a lot worse. Now if you want to reverse the genders but limit context to only what suits your non-argument, then you have a concrete point as neither of us can point to an example where the exact same circumstances happened with only the genders reversed. In that case we could only speculate about what could happen, and that could lead anywhere.

Or, we could just stick to what actually did happen, and you could try and whip up some moral outrage about that, instead of trying to whip up some moral outrage about the fact that there isn't any moral outrage being whipped up about a non-story.

py2006

One eyed Jack wrote: »

If you're going to complain about women making spurious claims of sexual assault, then you really don't have any ground to stand on when they don't make spurious claims of sexual assault. That's trying to have it both ways by your own standards.

If I am what???

py2006

Guys lets be real here, if a male artist not matter what age, but lets say for example Sting ripped off a 17 year old girls top and said he would like to "slap her ass" there would be an ENORMOUS negative reaction. If you deny that then you are seriously not living in the real world.

If it was staged than fair enough, although at 17 it still doesn't rest well.

stoplooklisten

py2006 wrote: »

Guys lets be real here, if a male artist not matter what age, but lets say for example Sting ripped off a 17 year old girls top and said he would like to "slap her ass" there would be an ENORMOUS negative reaction. If you deny that then you are seriously not living in the real world.

If it was staged than fair enough, although at 17 it still doesn't rest well.

she also followed it up with something about "making her hole big again"

One eyed Jack

py2006 wrote: »

Guys lets be real here, if a male artist not matter what age, but lets say for example Sting ripped off a 17 year old girls top and said he would like to "slap her ass" there would be an ENORMOUS negative reaction. If you deny that then you are seriously not living in the real world.

If it was staged than fair enough, although at 17 it still doesn't rest well.

How can you claim what would happen in a made-up scenario, and then claim that people who don't agree with you aren't living in the real world of your made up scenario?

Nobody is living in that world, not even you.

beks101

Whatever about Madonna exposing her breast being intentional or not:

stoplooklisten wrote: »

'she's the kind of girl you just want to slap on the ass'.

For a 57 year old woman to say this to a 17 year old, younger than her own daughter, is just plain creepy and inappropriate.

Everything Madonna does these days is creepy, cringey, try-hard and attention-seeking though.

jackofalltrades

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I've seen the video, and the girl was already adjusting her top while Madonna was talking about smacking her ass, and as she carried on talking, "pull, on her... oh, shìt", as she realised she'd yanked down the top. There was no "removing" her clothes. There's no need to exaggerate. Was it a deliberate set-up, was it a deliberate publicity stunt, was it an accident? Impossible to say, therefore we have no choice but to go with the word of the girl herself, and we don't get to paint her as a victim if she herself says she isn't a victim.

You're not addressing my question.
You made the claim that "It's easy claim it was accidental when the girl herself says her top was too big for her."
The degree to which someones clothes fit has no bearing on this situation.

Wasn't your point about older men and young girls? They did a lot worse. .

Yes in the past.
If they did the equivalent of what Madonna did there it would be big news.

One eyed Jack

jackofalltrades wrote: »

You're not addressing my question.
You made the claim that "It's easy claim it was accidental when the girl herself says her top was too big for her."
The degree to which someones clothes fit has no bearing on this situation.

You're trying to make out that it's indisputable that Madonna intended to remove this girls clothing. The girl herself excused Madonna from blame by saying that her top was too big. As much as you might want to, you absolutely can not disregard her opinion and substitute it with your own to make the situation appear worse than it actually wasn't.

Yes in the past.
If they did the equivalent of what Madonna did there it would be big news.

We don't know that either.

py2006

One eyed Jack wrote: »

How can you claim what would happen in a made-up scenario, and then claim that people who don't agree with you aren't living in the real world of your made up scenario?

Nobody is living in that world, not even you.

You are kind of confusing me here, either that I am passed by bed time?!?

I realise the scenario I mentioned (Sting doing as Madonna did) is hypothetical but I think most would agree on the huge backlash if he did.

armaghlad

Breasts are not a sex organ.

Edit - hadn't read the article! Doh!

Spook80

Definitely creepy but wouldn't exactly call it an assault.

One eyed Jack

py2006 wrote: »

You are kind of confusing me here, either that I am passed by bed time?!?

I realise the scenario I mentioned (Sting doing as Madonna did) is hypothetical but I think most would agree on the huge backlash if he did.

That's the part where I'm saying you have no possible way of knowing that, especially when we talk about celebrities, and it's their celebrity status which affords them a certain degree of immunity from public criticism, not solely their gender, age, etc. Celebrities are held to a completely different standard than the general public, and they are also protected from criticism by that same higher standard.

That's why the likes of Madonna and Hugh Heffner can get away with being as creepy as they like, it's why Rihanna got lambasted when Chris Brown beat her (they were on/off for a while again after the incident), it's why everyone did a collective facepalm when Lena Dunham thought she was above reproach and thought it was a good idea to recount in her biography how she sexually molested and emotionally manipulated her younger sister, and her younger sister claimed she was not a victim of her sisters abusive behaviour. It's why Woody Allen and Roman Polanski are still held in high regard by many people. It's why Monica Lewinsky was thrown under the bus (not literally obviously), while Bill still commands three figure sums for his after dinner speeches, and his wife who stood by him is on her way back to the White House.

Different, standards. Completely unpredictable to know what way anything would go in the world of celebrities, and that's why their behaviour makes for terrible comparisons with ordinary people's reactions to ordinary people's behaviour.

dr.fuzzenstein

stoplooklisten wrote: »

So if I see Madonna out an about, I can rip off her top, for the craic? I doubt she'd appreciate it.


aslo the night before, wasn't she singing a song about ****ing dedicated to her 15 year old son?


This woman is 57 years old and a parent to adopted children.

I'm not suprised tbh that her son whats to stay with Guy, if my mother was gong about sexually assaulting 17 year olds and singing about ****ing me, I'd have her committed.



Jeremy Jackson receives police caution after being kicked out of Celebrity Big Brother house for exposing Chloe Goodman's breast

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2907417/Celebrity-Big-Brother-Jeremy-Jackson-receives-caution-police.

Look, you've got to face it. Madonna will never yank down your top or shirt and vice versa. You've got to overcome this obsession.

What's the world come to that we all immediately sh*t ourselves at the sight of a breast.

py2006

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

What's the world come to that we all immediately sh*t ourselves at the sight of a breast.

I don't think it is so much that, it is more to do with what people feel is a double standard in society.

mzungu

To be fair it looked like an accident. Doubt it was intentional.

Although the whole thing of commenting on her "ass" comes across as a lame attempt to appear hip, cool and down with the kids.

stoplooklisten

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Look, you've got to face it. Madonna will never yank down your top or shirt and vice versa. You've got to overcome this obsession.

What's the world come to that we all immediately sh*t ourselves at the sight of a breast.

wtf? what a pathetic comment. Maybe you like watching teenagers get sexually molested by a OAP wanting to widen their hole, but it's not my cup of tea. I supposed you like the video of Jimmy feeling the girl up on TOTP too?

how come this lad got charged?
Jeremy Jackson receives police caution after being kicked out of Celebrity Big Brother house for exposing Chloe Goodman's breast

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz...caution-police.